|
|
|
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/3/2008 2:07:49 AM
|
|
|
OneJohn410
Posts: 1179
Joined: 6/1/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: OLEEguacamole
quote:
ORIGINAL: OneJohn410
You want to obligate me to something...
what is it exactly that you think i'm trying to obligate?
It's right there in your post- we are not obligated to display a cross as a physical reminder of the work of the cross, but we are obligated to remember it continuously. You are trying to obligate every Christian to continuously remember the cross.
_____________________________
The Lord is my strength and shield. I trust Him with all my heart. He helps me, and my heart is filled with joy. I burst out in songs of thanksgiving. Psalm 28:7
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/3/2008 2:14:49 AM
|
|
|
OneJohn410
Posts: 1179
Joined: 6/1/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: kisstheson
deleted post.
Ok, now work through the questons I posed and see if you can do some thinking instead of interrupting my post quotes with your own stuff. If that's not too challenging. I wasn't asking hypotheticals.
Thanks,
OneJohn410
_____________________________
The Lord is my strength and shield. I trust Him with all my heart. He helps me, and my heart is filled with joy. I burst out in songs of thanksgiving. Psalm 28:7
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/3/2008 2:32:00 AM
|
|
|
OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1051
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: OneJohn410
quote:
ORIGINAL: OLEEguacamole
quote:
ORIGINAL: OneJohn410
You want to obligate me to something...
what is it exactly that you think i'm trying to obligate?
It's right there in your post- we are not obligated to display a cross as a physical reminder of the work of the cross, but we are obligated to remember it continuously. You are trying to obligate every Christian to continuously remember the cross.
i offered scripture for the cross perspective. where's yours?
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/3/2008 3:09:24 AM
|
|
|
OneJohn410
Posts: 1179
Joined: 6/1/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: OLEEguacamole
quote:
ORIGINAL: OneJohn410
quote:
ORIGINAL: OLEEguacamole
quote:
ORIGINAL: OneJohn410
You want to obligate me to something...
what is it exactly that you think i'm trying to obligate?
It's right there in your post- we are not obligated to display a cross as a physical reminder of the work of the cross, but we are obligated to remember it continuously. You are trying to obligate every Christian to continuously remember the cross.
i offered scripture for the cross perspective. where's yours?
You shared five or six verses that had the word cross in it. None of those obligate me to continuously remember the cross. It's okay to say it just sounded good at the time, but you know there's nothing scriptural to it and it was fun to type. I just took interest in this knowledge of yours, that the great WE are obligated by ________ to remember this instrument of torture continuously. Please share one way or the other about this. Your faith is leading you to call everyone else to fault for not doing like you do, so let's see what you've got.
Thanks,
OneJohn410
_____________________________
The Lord is my strength and shield. I trust Him with all my heart. He helps me, and my heart is filled with joy. I burst out in songs of thanksgiving. Psalm 28:7
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/3/2008 3:24:23 AM
|
|
|
OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1051
Status: offline
|
again where is your scripture?
what do you suppose communion is for?
why does paul describe conversion as being crucified with Christ?
yes it was an instrument of torture. a heart attack or some other form of earthly death wouldn't have fit the bill. Jesus did the work of reconciliation by being an innocent, suffering lamb. that's what he came to do. He told us to remember the body broken and blood spilt.
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/3/2008 8:03:16 AM
|
|
|
SonInMe1
Posts: 3428
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
Status: offline
|
quote:
On one hand you say your church doesn't dispaly a cross and on the other hand you say you have one in the sanctuary and you came up and nailed your sins to the cross.
For that one service they had two wodden crosses up front to nail our papers with our sins upon it.
If there were crosses displayed every service, the symbolism would have been less.
I don't know about other christians but I don't need reminders of what Jesus did for me.
Its almost like your trying to promote guilt for what Jesus did for us.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/3/2008 11:48:56 AM
|
|
|
OneJohn410
Posts: 1179
Joined: 6/1/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: OLEEguacamole
again where is your scripture?
what do you suppose communion is for?
why does paul describe conversion as being crucified with Christ?
yes it was an instrument of torture. a heart attack or some other form of earthly death wouldn't have fit the bill. Jesus did the work of reconciliation by being an innocent, suffering lamb. that's what he came to do. He told us to remember the body broken and blood spilt.
I don't choose to make this forum a debate class. It's apparent that you do not have any quote in the Bible that says to the effect (God speaking here), 'The cross that My Son died on is disrespected when it is not publicly placed in a church setting, and when My followers do not dwell constantly on its role in salvation.' I'm not aware of one, or I'd have said you're right, and may well have quoted it myself.
What I see as really out of line with this thread, not started by you but heavily agreed on by you, is the focus in on one third of God's love for His creation. You and Kisstheson want to focus on Christ's death, and to call everyone disrespectful of that action based on what- whether there's a cross in view during their worship service or not? Every church I've attended has a cross in view in it. That doesn't mean it is respected. That doesn't mean it is constantly dwelt on. As has been pointed out, its the life, death, resurrection, acension, and promised return that Christians have in total to focus on. Now, how much of that is the Holy Spirit focused on constantly? I'd say a LOT more than our earthly minds, hearts, our every energy is. Following the leadings of the Holy Spirit can surely help the followings of the desires of the born again yet still fleshly earthly life, right?
What does constantly focusing on the cross do for you? Is a guilt trip created? Oh, I've got to do things better. Oh, I'm so unworthy of Your love for me, Lord.
If you two would firm up your thoughts about the proper respect you feel is due the cross, why that is important in your faith, how you feel the Bible leads you to such, then this would be an interesting topic. I have no dislike for either of you. I do not see your statement that we, as believers, have an obligation to consistently remember the cross, to be uplifting or edifying all by itself. At that level of content and being the integral part of Christianity the cross is, not it's center, but its role- you are just coming across as scolding and more righteous than those who would focus on Christ's entire life. That's what I don't understand. Since you are in agreement with Kisstheson, I'd appreciate hearing a littlle more on your take about the continuous cross focus you are upholding, including some Bible verses that speak right at it.
If this is part of a series, where you will also dwell on the life of Christ, the resurrection of Christ, His acension, and His return one day, then let me know. I just want to know why I'm obligated to constantly reflect on two pieces of wood on which Christ died to sin and death.
Thanks,
OneJohn410
_____________________________
The Lord is my strength and shield. I trust Him with all my heart. He helps me, and my heart is filled with joy. I burst out in songs of thanksgiving. Psalm 28:7
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/3/2008 1:04:54 PM
|
|
|
musicboss11
Posts: 515
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
|
I'm sorry but I'm not making the connection between wether or not a cross is displayed and what is being taught/preached from the pulpit.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/3/2008 1:42:49 PM
|
|
|
OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1051
Status: offline
|
onejohn, your words are many and very misapplied in this thread. you twist my words. you insist on scripture and insist on it being unnecessary to offer any of your own. you claim that the bible supports your ideas yet cannot demonstrate it. you say that i have offered scripture and yet...offered none.
you are not engaging in the conversation here. you are just jumping in and saying that we are off the wall with a lot of your own, blah blah blah.
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/3/2008 1:45:54 PM
|
|
|
OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1051
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
quote:
On one hand you say your church doesn't dispaly a cross and on the other hand you say you have one in the sanctuary and you came up and nailed your sins to the cross.
For that one service they had two wodden crosses up front to nail our papers with our sins upon it.
If there were crosses displayed every service, the symbolism would have been less.
I don't know about other christians but I don't need reminders of what Jesus did for me.
Its almost like your trying to promote guilt for what Jesus did for us.
it's impossible to read through the new testament, even if skipping over the gospels for a time, without being reminded of the work of the cross. it's central. it's not about guilt, it's about knowing, and remembering we have been freed from the burden of guilty, and that that burden comes with obligation as well as joy.
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/3/2008 2:51:53 PM
|
|
|
kisstheson
Posts: 965
Joined: 5/1/2006
From: AOL
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: OneJohn410
quote:
ORIGINAL: kisstheson
deleted post.
Ok, now work through the questons I posed and see if you can do some thinking instead of interrupting my post quotes with your own stuff. If that's not too challenging. I wasn't asking hypotheticals.
Thanks,
OneJohn410
I already did. Go back and look.
_____________________________
This is my Beloved. This is my friend. (Song of Solomon)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/3/2008 2:55:45 PM
|
|
|
kisstheson
Posts: 965
Joined: 5/1/2006
From: AOL
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
quote:
On one hand you say your church doesn't dispaly a cross and on the other hand you say you have one in the sanctuary and you came up and nailed your sins to the cross.
For that one service they had two wodden crosses up front to nail our papers with our sins upon it.
If there were crosses displayed every service, the symbolism would have been less.
I don't know about other christians but I don't need reminders of what Jesus did for me.
Its almost like your trying to promote guilt for what Jesus did for us.
I'm sorry that you think of it that way. If remembering what Jesus did for us is just out of guilt and not out of gratitude then you are missing the point.
< Message edited by kisstheson -- 9/3/2008 3:24:59 PM >
_____________________________
This is my Beloved. This is my friend. (Song of Solomon)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/3/2008 3:14:59 PM
|
|
|
kisstheson
Posts: 965
Joined: 5/1/2006
From: AOL
Status: offline
|
quote:
What does constantly focusing on the cross do for you? Is a guilt trip created? Oh, I've got to do things better. Oh, I'm so unworthy of Your love for me, Lord.
This is the last time that I will say this because I have already done so several times. The cross is a reminder of what Jesus suffered for us. Its is good that we have this reminder. we need to keep in balance the resurrection and His sufferings. If you are really interested in knowing how many times the Paul, John, Peter etc mention thinking on the sufferings of Christ in their letters in the NT google it or pull out your concordence. Thinking on Christ's Passion inspires gratitude as any gift from a loved one should inspire. And Jesus is most precious and beloved. His sufferings are His gift to His Bride, the church.
See the Bridegroom standing,
Standing there before the crowd,
Dressed in the finery of love
Heading to His betrothal.
His betrothal gift boxed all in wood,
A cross of heavy weight and pain,
Embossed with nails for feet and hands,
Precious treasure for His betrothal.
All for love he gives these things,
All for love to win his bride,
All for love to woo her heart,
Giving all for His betrothal.
[Edited by moderator - copyright violation]
I can't really give the link because its really a very old hym so I just posted three verses to give the idea.
< Message edited by kisstheson -- 9/3/2008 6:58:58 PM >
_____________________________
This is my Beloved. This is my friend. (Song of Solomon)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/3/2008 3:16:10 PM
|
|
|
OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1051
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: kisstheson
If remembering what Jesus did for us is just out of guilt and not out of gratitude then you are missing the point.
EXCELLENT.
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/3/2008 3:28:37 PM
|
|
|
kisstheson
Posts: 965
Joined: 5/1/2006
From: AOL
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: OLEEguacamole
quote:
ORIGINAL: kisstheson
If remembering what Jesus did for us is just out of guilt and not out of gratitude then you are missing the point.
EXCELLENT.
Thanks!
_____________________________
This is my Beloved. This is my friend. (Song of Solomon)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/3/2008 5:55:05 PM
|
|
|
ta_mosquito
Posts: 11469
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
Status: offline
|
MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Kisstheson - I have edited the poem in your post for copyright violation. You may post a small portion with a link to the rest.
Thanks!
Tricia
Forums Moderator
Please do not reply to this message within the forums or chat.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/3/2008 8:54:28 PM
|
|
|
SonInMe1
Posts: 3428
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
Status: offline
|
quote:
work of the cross.
The work done on the cross was done by Christ...NOT the cross.
I do not and will not rejoice or worship torture devices...plain and simple...and it is man's doctrine that demands this and I can only surmise its from the aspect of guilt.
Jesus died so we might know the freedom of living under Grace and Holy Spirit indwellment with all that means...not to worship idols and feel guilty over what Christ did on that cross.
Like I said before, I don't need a "visual" to remember what Christ did for me on that torture device. My pastor's sermon have bite without a rugged cross to look at. I find this kind of christinaity...superficial....emotion centered...and manipulative.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/3/2008 10:31:28 PM
|
|
|
OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1051
Status: offline
|
the phrase, "work of the cross" has been around along time and it simply means the work of Christ on the cross" did you really think we were talking about the actual wood as being special or working some kind of spiritual act?
further, the phrase "the cross" is found throughout the new testament. Sometimes as the "cross of Christ" but not always.
here we find both:
1:17
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.
1:18
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
as kisstheson said, it is not about guilt but gratitude. it is also about doctrine. the cross is central in new testament doctrine. it is mentioned with great importance all through the epistles.
please demonstrate from scripture that once we are saved the cross is no longer something to think about or remember.
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/4/2008 12:30:36 AM
|
|
|
OneJohn410
Posts: 1179
Joined: 6/1/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: OLEEguacamole
onejohn, your words are many and very misapplied in this thread. you twist my words. you insist on scripture and insist on it being unnecessary to offer any of your own. you claim that the bible supports your ideas yet cannot demonstrate it. you say that i have offered scripture and yet...offered none.
you are not engaging in the conversation here. you are just jumping in and saying that we are off the wall with a lot of your own, blah blah blah.
I did ask first, didn't I? I haven't even read a polite request from you for anything from me at all. You quoted a bunch of verses that have the word cross in them long before I read a post that wasn't even yours.
[Edited by moderator - TOS 6]
So you've failed to convince me I should feel obligated to constantly remember the cross.
OneJohn410
< Message edited by ta_mosquito -- 9/4/2008 10:21:08 AM >
_____________________________
The Lord is my strength and shield. I trust Him with all my heart. He helps me, and my heart is filled with joy. I burst out in songs of thanksgiving. Psalm 28:7
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/4/2008 12:42:33 AM
|
|
|
kisstheson
Posts: 965
Joined: 5/1/2006
From: AOL
Status: offline
|
You know what? I'm done with this discussion. I hear enough of dissing of the cross from exchristians and atheists calling the cross a "guilt device" etc. but now I hear this from people who name the name of Christ?
This is most grievious and shocking. All you 'naysayers" can keep you crossless christ. And when christians have to fight over the useage of the cross and its importance I'm thinking we are truly in the last days.
I'll stick to Paul position. "I sought to know nothing among you but Christ and him crucified."
wow...
_____________________________
This is my Beloved. This is my friend. (Song of Solomon)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/4/2008 12:45:28 AM
|
|
|
OneJohn410
Posts: 1179
Joined: 6/1/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: kisstheson
quote:
ORIGINAL: OneJohn410
quote:
ORIGINAL: kisstheson
deleted post.
Ok, now work through the questons I posed and see if you can do some thinking instead of interrupting my post quotes with your own stuff. If that's not too challenging. I wasn't asking hypotheticals.
Thanks,
OneJohn410
I already did. Go back and look.
Ok. Here's one you missed, because your OP was so uninviting toward any conversation.
1. Is your OP a continuation from something else? You are writing about a generation that has been able to view a movie 'The Passion of the Christ', in which there was no English spoken, that had everything to do about Christ's death on a cross. The hymn you quote is a great hymn. I could type out the words for 'Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path', and say something obscure about people dissing God's Word, and what does it gain me? What are you trying to share with us? Should I pay more attention to the cross than the Bible?
I have no interest in whatever Ollie Guacamole has stated about this either. Try to just answer this in your own words and remember that I'm not the one telling everyone their obligations in thinking about God.
Thanks,
OneJohn410
_____________________________
The Lord is my strength and shield. I trust Him with all my heart. He helps me, and my heart is filled with joy. I burst out in songs of thanksgiving. Psalm 28:7
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/4/2008 12:48:27 AM
|
|
|
kisstheson
Posts: 965
Joined: 5/1/2006
From: AOL
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: kisstheson
You know what? This talk about us worshipping the wood of the cross is absolute foolishness and you know darn well that's not what we are talking about. I hear enough of dissing of the cross from exchristians and atheists calling the cross a "guilt device" etc. but now I hear this from people who name the name of Christ?
This is most grievious and shocking. All you 'naysayers" can keep you crossless christ. And when christians have to fight over the useage of the cross and its importance I'm thinking we are truly in the last days.
I'll stick to Paul position. "I sought to know nothing among you but Christ and him crucified."
wow...
_____________________________
This is my Beloved. This is my friend. (Song of Solomon)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/4/2008 12:54:15 AM
|
|
|
kisstheson
Posts: 965
Joined: 5/1/2006
From: AOL
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: OneJohn410
quote:
ORIGINAL: kisstheson
quote:
ORIGINAL: OneJohn410
quote:
ORIGINAL: kisstheson
deleted post.
Ok, now work through the questons I posed and see if you can do some thinking instead of interrupting my post quotes with your own stuff. If that's not too challenging. I wasn't asking hypotheticals.
Thanks,
OneJohn410
I already did. Go back and look.
Ok. Here's one you missed, because your OP was so uninviting toward any conversation.
1. Is your OP a continuation from something else? You are writing about a generation that has been able to view a movie 'The Passion of the Christ', in which there was no English spoken, that had everything to do about Christ's death on a cross. The hymn you quote is a great hymn. I could type out the words for 'Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path', and say something obscure about people dissing God's Word, and what does it gain me? What are you trying to share with us? Should I pay more attention to the cross than the Bible?
I have no interest in whatever Ollie Guacamole has stated about this either. Try to just answer this in your own words and remember that I'm not the one telling everyone their obligations in thinking about God.
Thanks,
OneJohn410
When I said "the Passion" I didn't mean the movie. the term "Passion" in latin means "sufferings". I'm talking about appreciating the sufferings of Christ and not forgetting what he did for us and keeping his work on the cross in focus. Yes... look up the phrase "sufferings of Christ" and see hwo many times paul and the rest of the guys mention that phrase. And if you really want to know what I think please read through this thread because I have stated my thoughts on the subject dozens of times. Thanks.
_____________________________
This is my Beloved. This is my friend. (Song of Solomon)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/4/2008 12:55:19 AM
|
|
|
OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1051
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: OneJohn410
[edited by mod to remove portion removed in original post]
so i take it you can't think of any scripture to back up your protests? not able to discuss the scripture i posted and what they really mean?
okay then. not sure why you're poppin in here. you're not discussing anything, you're badgering.
< Message edited by ta_mosquito -- 9/4/2008 10:14:21 AM >
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/4/2008 1:32:41 AM
|
|
|
OneJohn410
Posts: 1179
Joined: 6/1/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: OneJohn410
quote:
ORIGINAL: OLEEguacamole
onejohn, your words are many and very misapplied in this thread. you twist my words. you insist on scripture and insist on it being unnecessary to offer any of your own. you claim that the bible supports your ideas yet cannot demonstrate it. you say that i have offered scripture and yet...offered none.
you are not engaging in the conversation here. you are just jumping in and saying that we are off the wall with a lot of your own, blah blah blah.
I did ask first, didn't I? I haven't even read a polite request from you for anything from me at all. You quoted a bunch of verses that have the word cross in them long before I read a post that wasn't even yours. You obviously aren't a teacher, yet you are convicted about something you can't share anything about. So I see I have nothing to learn from you. I sure hope when I have placed over 1,000 posts in this community that I've got more maturity than you do. So you've failed to convince me I should feel obligated to constantly remember the cross.
OneJohn410
Why don't you fill up your pit with some water, jump in, and cool off, Ollie? I ask where in the Bible you are so convicted about something, and all you do is blow the request off. You still haven't asked me for anything, and neither you nor Kisstheson, who's withdrawn from his own post, have offered any kind of decent dialogue on this. Look at all the people that have dropped the thread already. Forgive me for asking you two to share in your convictions- I know that's not as much fun as telling everyone else they are flat out wrong.
If I see an ugly argument that doesn't make itself clear to me, then it is my duty to justify why I ask questions, because sure as it's stated, it's the gospel truth. Hmm... that's very interesting. Almost more interesting than this post.
Well, it's been, y'all. I'm not going to beg for courtesy on this one.
_____________________________
The Lord is my strength and shield. I trust Him with all my heart. He helps me, and my heart is filled with joy. I burst out in songs of thanksgiving. Psalm 28:7
|
|
|
| | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
