RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... (Full Version)

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TorchHeart -> RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... (9/15/2008 3:34:55 PM)

I for one am proud of Ray Boltz.

It takes guts for someone to come out and admit that they're a sinner when they're as prominent as he is among a group of people who (despite the person they claim to emulate) do not often forgive sinners that well, and gladly look at superficial issues rather than the thing Christ would want them to focus on.

Whatever you think of his lifestyle, his music has probably helped to guide a number of people to Christ, or even deepen their relationship with Him. I hope God looks at his ministry first before he looks at who the guy slept with.



Kath -> RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... (9/15/2008 3:38:24 PM)

quote:

Kath - I would HOPE this puts an end to that song being sung at your funeral!


I do too. It's just expected that at every funeral, Phil will be singing this song. It's not even questioned.



doinkdom -> RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... (9/15/2008 3:38:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellaluna
MCC isn't "gay-friendly"...it is, in fact, a church for gay people. There's one right down the street from me.

I don't think I know who Ray Boltz is, but I looked at his website and I don't think there's much ambiguity there. Nor do I think a musician who is gay should expect to be "accepted for who he is" and be allowed to continue any sort of ministry.

And this is a weird quote from that web article:
quote:


When asked about Boltz's homosexuality, The Gospel Music Association -- the group which gives out the Dove Awards -- told the Blade, "We do not comment on the lifestyle choices of people in our community."

According to Quinlan, by making such a statement the GMA seems to be "enabling a behavior that is totally inconsistent, incongruent with the message of the gospel."


yeh...I was really stretching to give the benefit of a doubt on that one[&o]

Many of his songs are very gospel-centered songs. I'm not sure I could eliminate them so easily from Christiandom based on his current sin life after all the lives that were lifted up, encouraged, changed, etc. as a result of being touched by the lyrics.



JimboFletch -> RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... (9/15/2008 3:40:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TorchHeart

I for one am proud of Ray Boltz.

It takes guts for someone to come out and admit that they're a sinner when they're as prominent as he is among a group of people who (despite the person they claim to emulate) do not often forgive sinners that well, and gladly look at superficial issues rather than the thing Christ would want them to focus on.

Whatever you think of his lifestyle, his music has probably helped to guide a number of people to Christ, or even deepen their relationship with Him. I hope God looks at his ministry first before he looks at who the guy slept with.

It is very telling when someone claims to find peace by letting go of godly principles and wallowing in sin. Peter described it like this, "But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

There is no freedom or peace for a believer that dives openly into sin. There is for the tare, but not the wheat.



crankius -> RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... (9/15/2008 3:44:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TorchHeart

I for one am proud of Ray Boltz.

It takes guts for someone to come out and admit that they're a sinner when they're as prominent as he is among a group of people who (despite the person they claim to emulate) do not often forgive sinners that well, and gladly look at superficial issues rather than the thing Christ would want them to focus on.

Whatever you think of his lifestyle, his music has probably helped to guide a number of people to Christ, or even deepen their relationship with Him. I hope God looks at his ministry first before he looks at who the guy slept with.


If God looks to any of us at all, we are all condemned. It is through Christ's righteousness (and His payment for our sin) that we are justified. We are justified apart from our works.

If Ray Boltz doesn't repent and have Christ as his Lord and Savior, then he will not be justified.



TorchHeart -> RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... (9/15/2008 3:44:54 PM)

quote:

There is no freedom or peace for a believer that dives openly into sin. There is for the tare, but not the wheat.


Well, that's all of us, so...

Since my wife has always wanted a log cabin, can I borrow some from people's eyes? (I've got one, myself, to begin with)

personally, I'm going to leave it between him and Christ, where it belongs.



stellaluna -> RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... (9/15/2008 3:48:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TorchHeart

I for one am proud of Ray Boltz.

It takes guts for someone to come out and admit that they're a sinner when they're as prominent as he is among a group of people who (despite the person they claim to emulate) do not often forgive sinners that well, and gladly look at superficial issues rather than the thing Christ would want them to focus on.

Whatever you think of his lifestyle, his music has probably helped to guide a number of people to Christ, or even deepen their relationship with Him. I hope God looks at his ministry first before he looks at who the guy slept with.

The problem isn't owning up to the sin; it's announcing that you intend to continue in it. Big difference. I feel there would be much rejoicing if this guy confessed his sin and repented. Confessing and being defiant about it is nothing to applaud.

(Edited to put a word in that I left out.)



JimboFletch -> RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... (9/15/2008 3:48:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: doinkdom
yeh...I was really stretching to give the benefit of a doubt on that one[&o]

Many of his songs are very gospel-centered songs. I'm not sure I could eliminate them so easily from Christiandom based on his current sin life after all the lives that were lifted up, encouraged, changed, etc. as a result of being touched by the lyrics.

I once knew a man that had one of the most beautiful baritone voices I've ever heard. He made several albums and sang throughout the tri-state area (AL, FL, GA). We got into a discussion one time about his using abusive language at my wife. He got very angry for my mentioning it and he offered to clean-my-clock.

I told him that as Christians we should be able to discuss the situation without resorting violence.

Without blinking an eye, he said, "I've never claimed to be a Christian. I sing because I enjoy singing and it's easy to get a gig in a church."

Tares come in all shapes, sizes, and with all sorts of abilities. There are some very talented tares, but they are tares nonetheless.



Howzat... -> RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... (9/15/2008 3:50:26 PM)

This is just astounding. After reading that note on his website though, I don't think there's any denying it. So sad. I feel worst for his fans. Of which I never was one anyway.

I just don't get it. How could he not know that of all the sins in the world, this is the one and only one that God hates and calls an ABOMINATION?



JimboFletch -> RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... (9/15/2008 3:52:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TorchHeart

quote:

There is no freedom or peace for a believer that dives openly into sin. There is for the tare, but not the wheat.


Well, that's all of us, so...

I'm sorry, but freedom or peace while in sin is not true of any believer I've ever known, certainly not myself.

When I was redeemed by the blood of Jesus, born again, and indwelt by God the Holy Spirit, my desire to wallow in sin evaporated. I am not sinless, but intentional sin is not my NORMAL way of life. And when I am slow to repent, my Father chastises me and I am miserable until I do return.

That is the way scripture describes a believer.



Howzat... -> RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... (9/15/2008 3:55:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellaluna

quote:

ORIGINAL: TorchHeart

I for one am proud of Ray Boltz.

It takes guts for someone to come out and admit that they're a sinner when they're as prominent as he is among a group of people who (despite the person they claim to emulate) do not often forgive sinners that well, and gladly look at superficial issues rather than the thing Christ would want them to focus on.

Whatever you think of his lifestyle, his music has probably helped to guide a number of people to Christ, or even deepen their relationship with Him. I hope God looks at his ministry first before he looks at who the guy slept with.

The problem isn't owning up to the sin; it's announcing that you intend to continue in it. Big difference. I feel there would be much rejoicing if this guy confessed his sin and repented. Confessing and being defiant about is nothing to applaud.

Stella, you rock! Somebody star that post!



TorchHeart -> RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... (9/15/2008 4:04:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

ORIGINAL: TorchHeart

quote:

There is no freedom or peace for a believer that dives openly into sin. There is for the tare, but not the wheat.


Well, that's all of us, so...

I'm sorry, but freedom or peace while in sin is not true of any believer I've ever known, certainly not myself.

When I was redeemed by the blood of Jesus, born again, and indwelt by God the Holy Spirit, my desire to wallow in sin evaporated. I am not sinless, but intentional sin is not my NORMAL way of life. And when I am slow to repent, my Father chastises me and I am miserable until I do return.

That is the way scripture describes a believer.


Whatever, Jamie. [8|] You and I are jut going to have to disagree here.



JimboFletch -> RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... (9/15/2008 4:05:53 PM)

For the believer, the process is Confess and Repent. As Jesus said "Go and sin no more."

It is not, never has been, nor ever will be Confess and Continue or Wallow in sin.



TorchHeart -> RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... (9/15/2008 4:07:35 PM)

Yet you and everyone else still does. Me included.

Forgive me if I'm making this seem personal (that's not the intention), but I know none of us are perfect. We all sin. Like I said, this is going to be between him and Christ.



keepitreal -> RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... (9/15/2008 4:08:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

ORIGINAL: TorchHeart

I for one am proud of Ray Boltz.

It takes guts for someone to come out and admit that they're a sinner when they're as prominent as he is among a group of people who (despite the person they claim to emulate) do not often forgive sinners that well, and gladly look at superficial issues rather than the thing Christ would want them to focus on.

Whatever you think of his lifestyle, his music has probably helped to guide a number of people to Christ, or even deepen their relationship with Him. I hope God looks at his ministry first before he looks at who the guy slept with.

It is very telling when someone claims to find peace by letting go of godly principles and wallowing in sin. Peter described it like this, "But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

There is no freedom or peace for a believer that dives openly into sin. There is for the tare, but not the wheat.


Excellent post; I 100% agree!



JimboFletch -> RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... (9/15/2008 4:09:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TorchHeart

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

ORIGINAL: TorchHeart

quote:

There is no freedom or peace for a believer that dives openly into sin. There is for the tare, but not the wheat.


Well, that's all of us, so...

I'm sorry, but freedom or peace while in sin is not true of any believer I've ever known, certainly not myself.

When I was redeemed by the blood of Jesus, born again, and indwelt by God the Holy Spirit, my desire to wallow in sin evaporated. I am not sinless, but intentional sin is not my NORMAL way of life. And when I am slow to repent, my Father chastises me and I am miserable until I do return.

That is the way scripture describes a believer.


Whatever, Jamie. [8|]

I am more astonished by this complacency, accommodation, and acceptance over intentional sin than by Ray Boltz's "coming out." Truly astonished.



keepitreal -> RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... (9/15/2008 4:16:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

ORIGINAL: TorchHeart

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

ORIGINAL: TorchHeart

quote:

There is no freedom or peace for a believer that dives openly into sin. There is for the tare, but not the wheat.


Well, that's all of us, so...

I'm sorry, but freedom or peace while in sin is not true of any believer I've ever known, certainly not myself.

When I was redeemed by the blood of Jesus, born again, and indwelt by God the Holy Spirit, my desire to wallow in sin evaporated. I am not sinless, but intentional sin is not my NORMAL way of life. And when I am slow to repent, my Father chastises me and I am miserable until I do return.

That is the way scripture describes a believer.


Whatever, Jamie. [8|]

I am more astonished by this complacency, accommodation, and acceptance over intentional sin than by Ray Boltz's "coming out." Truly astonished.


Amen! And the attitude is running rampant. And anyone who even dares stand up for the plain word of Christ is so often condemned. The world has always been backwards in its thinking, and the church is obviously embracing the world.



TorchHeart -> RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... (9/15/2008 4:35:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

ORIGINAL: TorchHeart

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

ORIGINAL: TorchHeart

quote:

There is no freedom or peace for a believer that dives openly into sin. There is for the tare, but not the wheat.


Well, that's all of us, so...

I'm sorry, but freedom or peace while in sin is not true of any believer I've ever known, certainly not myself.

When I was redeemed by the blood of Jesus, born again, and indwelt by God the Holy Spirit, my desire to wallow in sin evaporated. I am not sinless, but intentional sin is not my NORMAL way of life. And when I am slow to repent, my Father chastises me and I am miserable until I do return.

That is the way scripture describes a believer.


Whatever, Jamie. [8|]

I am more astonished by this complacency, accommodation, and acceptance over intentional sin than by Ray Boltz's "coming out." Truly astonished.



And I am equally astonished by the quick un-Christ-like condemnation of a fellow brother in Christ. I never remember reading that the only sin God will not forgive is the one of homosexuality.

Suddenly, everyone wants to delete his music off of their iPods and are lashing out against him. It makes me ashamed to be a Christian.

Maybe I'm just sensitive because I've been on the receiving end of what I preceive to be biggotry and rejection. I just don't believe that Christ is going to simply burn Ray Boltz (who I haven't ever even listend to) over this issue. Like I said, guys. We're going to have to disagree.



earthless -> RE: pray for Ray Boltz... (9/15/2008 4:42:35 PM)

This is where someone like my dad would say... "see, this is why I don't like CCM.. stick to hymns and classics which we now the life and testimony (completely) of those who wrote them..."



JimboFletch -> RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... (9/15/2008 4:44:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
And I am equally astonished by the quick un-Christ-like condemnation of a fellow brother in Christ. I never remember reading that the only sin God will not forgive is the one of homosexuality.

Pretend I'm new to Christianity:

What does salvation and the new birth mean to you - I mean, is it like buying fire insurance that you put away until it's needed at death but until then it has no impact on how you live? OR, is it really like what is recorded in 2 Corinthians 5:17, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."



crankius -> RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... (9/15/2008 4:48:35 PM)

quote:

And I am equally astonished by the quick un-Christ-like condemnation of a fellow brother in Christ. I never remember reading that the only sin God will not forgive is the one of homosexuality.

Suddenly, everyone wants to delete his music off of their iPods and are lashing out against him. It makes me ashamed to be a Christian.

Maybe I'm just sensitive because I've been on the receiving end of what I preceive to be biggotry and rejection. I just don't believe that Christ is going to simply burn Ray Boltz (who I haven't ever even listend to) over this issue. Like I said, guys. We're going to have to disagree.


We can agree to disagree on listening to Ray's music, but we can't agree to disagree with the truth of the Gospel.



earthless -> RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... (9/15/2008 4:56:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

ORIGINAL: TorchHeart

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

ORIGINAL: TorchHeart

quote:

There is no freedom or peace for a believer that dives openly into sin. There is for the tare, but not the wheat.


Well, that's all of us, so...

I'm sorry, but freedom or peace while in sin is not true of any believer I've ever known, certainly not myself.

When I was redeemed by the blood of Jesus, born again, and indwelt by God the Holy Spirit, my desire to wallow in sin evaporated. I am not sinless, but intentional sin is not my NORMAL way of life. And when I am slow to repent, my Father chastises me and I am miserable until I do return.

That is the way scripture describes a believer.


Whatever, Jamie. [8|]

I am more astonished by this complacency, accommodation, and acceptance over intentional sin than by Ray Boltz's "coming out." Truly astonished.


Same here. We're all sinners, yes. But for a self-professing Christian to proudly announce that they are sinning and plan to continue sinning because they say it is not a sin.. well that's an entirely different story.



TorchHeart -> RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... (9/15/2008 4:58:55 PM)

quote:

but we can't agree to disagree with the truth of the Gospel.


No one is disagreeing with the Truth of the Gospel.



TorchHeart -> RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... (9/15/2008 5:01:30 PM)

quote:

What does salvation and the new birth mean to you - I mean, is it like buying fire insurance that you put away until it's needed at death but until then it has no impact on how you live? OR, is it really like what is recorded in 2 Corinthians 5:17, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."


Pretend I'm new to Christianity:

What does the death and resurrection of Christ mean to you? Did He die for all of our sins, or just certain ones? Also, does His death mean that we're free to condem our fellow man, now?

Or when He told us to remove the log from our eyes before we tell our brother to remove the speck from His own, did He mean that we're not fit to judge anyone else on this Earth?

Praying for one another when we see sin is definitely a must (as I recall, we're supposed to help one another along in our faith, and prayer is one of the best ways to do that). Those who do that for Boltz, more power to you. Out-right condeming this man... I don't think any of US died on a cross and jumped out of a cave after three days, did we? I sure didn't.



JimboFletch -> RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... (9/15/2008 5:02:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TorchHeart

quote:

but we can't agree to disagree with the truth of the Gospel.


No one is disagreeing with the Truth of the Gospel.

But you seem to be offended that some of us think the Gospel actually changes people that it saves and makes them miserable when they choose sin. Scripture calls such false sons.



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