RE: pray for Ray Boltz... (Full Version)

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dixiebass1 -> RE: pray for Ray Boltz... (9/16/2008 12:28:28 AM)

I am so disgusted over this. There is forgiveness for Ray, but only if he repents and turns a way from this sin. If not, then Hell is his only option. Please pray for him, i know I will.



JimboFletch -> RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... (9/16/2008 8:18:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
Because I believe in Christ, and what He did for all of us. Just like you do.

And I will let Christ judge Mr. Boltz. I am a sinner. So I will not. TO me, its just that simple.

That is a very sweet philosophy. Very. But the key to understanding God's perspective is to read the Bible - all the way through several times - not from snippets or developing a philosophy then working snippets in to fit it. That's your option, but it makes God in your image, not the other way around.

From Boltz's own "testimony," he tried out Christianity as a way of dealing with his guilt for his perversion. The man married (for 33 years) and had children but, in the end, returned to his perversion and now embraces another gospel than the one in scripture and which Paul declares a curse to those that do so.

I sin, but that is not my desire nor is it a description of my lifestyle. Mr. Boltz has chosen sin over what he admits to knowing is against God's word.

The man needs salvation, not enablers that will allow him to go into eternity without redemption, only his false peace and false freedom of sin.



iluvatar -> RE: pray for Ray Boltz... (9/16/2008 8:56:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dianetavegia

His lifestyle choice has ruined his songs for me. I hope our church takes them from our rotation.


Why? Are the songs any less doctrinally sound than they were before you knew?


quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
It is very telling when someone claims to find peace by letting go of godly principles and wallowing in sin. Peter described it like this, "But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

There is no freedom or peace for a believer that dives openly into sin. There is for the tare, but not the wheat.


That's why I made the comment I did earlier about researching what causes our urges. I can't imagine that this lifestyle was solely a matter a of choice (for him anyways). He's obviously been struggling with these urges for a long time and they've been causing him a lot of grief.


quote:

ORIGINAL: TorchHeart

quote:

But if he decides to revive his career, you have to admit that "Gay Ray" has a nice ring to it.


Actually, it sounds like a weapon in a bad sci-fi movie from the '60s. [:D]


LOL!

-Dan.



gtrdave -> RE: pray for Ray Boltz... (9/16/2008 10:20:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: iluvatar

Why? Are the songs any less doctrinally sound than they were before you knew?



If the songs are about truth then that truth can't be taken away from them regardless of the moral failings of the writer, BUT is it right for others to go on singing those songs knowing the moral failings of the songwriter?
I mean, the two demon-possessed dudes in Matthew 8 knew full well that Jesus was the "Son of God". Had they had the ability to write a catchy tune stating such truth, would it be appropriate to sing it in church?
I don't claim to know the answer so I'm asking.

In the recent past it seems that there have been a few mighty music men of God brought down by their own sins...Lamar Boschman, Terry MacAlmon and now Ray Boltz...and yet none of them are beyond God's grace, mercy and forgiveness if they exercise true repentance, turn from their wicked ways and seek His face.
That goes for the rest of us, too. [;)]



JimboFletch -> RE: pray for Ray Boltz... (9/16/2008 10:31:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: iluvatar
That's why I made the comment I did earlier about researching what causes our urges...

The Bible is fairly clear where those urges originate and the cure for them. Had the man known the One he wrote about, his story would have a different ending.



stateofgrace -> RE: Ray Boltz - GAY?... (9/16/2008 10:35:01 AM)

Right now I am listening to the testimony of Mike Haley. What a contrast to Ray Boltz's story. If anyone's interested in hearing a recent speech (in the last few weeks) by him, check Liberty University's Convocation podcasts (they're in the iTunes directory).

EDITED TO ADD: Here's a link to the video stream.



gtrdave -> RE: pray for Ray Boltz... (9/16/2008 10:49:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

ORIGINAL: iluvatar
That's why I made the comment I did earlier about researching what causes our urges...

The Bible is fairly clear where those urges originate and the cure for them. Had the man known the One he wrote about, his story would have a different ending.


If you're referring to Ray, his "story" is not over until he leaves this earth.
Until then, he is not too far out of reach from our God.



JimboFletch -> RE: pray for Ray Boltz... (9/16/2008 10:55:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gtrdave

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

ORIGINAL: iluvatar
That's why I made the comment I did earlier about researching what causes our urges...

The Bible is fairly clear where those urges originate and the cure for them. Had the man known the One he wrote about, his story would have a different ending.


If you're referring to Ray, his "story" is not over until he leaves this earth.
Until then, he is not too far out of reach from our God.

I meant the broken marriage, hurt children, and the countless numbers of people now feeling his choice to embrace homosexuality must be okie dokie since he wrote some many "good, Christian" songs. Regardless of his final state, he is causing serious harm to those within and outside the faith - he is a living example of Jesus' admonition against causing one of the least to stumble. (Millstone around the neck, and all that.)



doinkdom -> RE: pray for Ray Boltz... (9/16/2008 11:00:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
I meant the broken marriage, hurt children, and the countless numbers of people now feeling his choice to embrace homosexuality must be okie dokie since he wrote some many "good, Christian" songs. Regardless of his final state, he is causing serious harm to those within and outside the faith - he is a living example of Jesus' admonition against causing one of the least to stumble. (Millstone around the neck, and all that.)


Oh...well, just to be clear about me...I am not ok with his choice, but I don't know him (other than publicly) to come alongside and walk with him through the sanctifying process of confession and repentence.

I do think the songs stand alone without his voice behind them.



DaveW -> RE: pray for Ray Boltz... (9/16/2008 1:06:24 PM)

I was - I am not quite sure what - "stunned" is a bit too hard but not by much - when I read the article.

I saw this same thing happen to a friend of mine about 25 years ago. He was married, had a couple of preschool children and one day up and left for San Francisco and a gay church out there. He and his wife had just built a house.

The guy stood up at my wedding. He was my prayer partner for 3 or 4 years.

When a mutual friend asked "Steve" why, (we had all lived together in a single mens house) he confessed to years of struggling and feeling like if he told anyone even before he had acted on those urges that he would be rejected and beaten up (not literally) and kicked out of the church. There was no help for him.

While I understand the implications of this sin, it has been so abhorant to the church that they will not help those who are being tempted that way. There are programs for alcoholics, adulterers, people caught in porn addictions, and anger management classes. There is nothing for anyone struggling with a same gender attraction.

While Boltz's (and "Steve's") sin is his to own, I do believe the congregations he attended over the years that had nothing to help him bear a portion of that guilt as well.



stateofgrace -> RE: pray for Ray Boltz... (9/16/2008 1:40:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

When a mutual friend asked "Steve" why, (we had all lived together in a single mens house) he confessed to years of struggling and feeling like if he told anyone even before he had acted on those urges that he would be rejected and beaten up (not literally) and kicked out of the church. There was no help for him.

While I understand the implications of this sin, it has been so abhorant to the church that they will not help those who are being tempted that way. There are programs for alcoholics, adulterers, people caught in porn addictions, and anger management classes. There is nothing for anyone struggling with a same gender attraction.

While Boltz's (and "Steve's") sin is his to own, I do believe the congregations he attended over the years that had nothing to help him bear a portion of that guilt as well.


And that issue is a big part of Mike Haley's story as well. Fortunately, he found a church (two different churches) where people were compassionate and committed to being there for people who were struggling with SSA but wanted to leave behind the gay lifestyle (no, I'm not saying that being gay is simply a lifestyle, I'm saying that there was a lifestyle these people wanted to leave behind and that particular lifestyle was focused on gay identity, gay hookups, and the gay community).



musica330 -> RE: pray for Ray Boltz... (9/16/2008 2:27:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gtrdave

quote:

ORIGINAL: iluvatar

Why? Are the songs any less doctrinally sound than they were before you knew?



If the songs are about truth then that truth can't be taken away from them regardless of the moral failings of the writer, BUT is it right for others to go on singing those songs knowing the moral failings of the songwriter?



King David wrote many Psalms which we now sing in churches every week. Is it right for us to sing these songs knowing his moral failures? He was considered a man after God's own heart in spite of his failures. Personally, I don't condone the choices Mr. Boltz is now making but I feel it is completely unfair to take away his songs which convey spiritual truths that encourage believers world-wide.



JimboFletch -> RE: pray for Ray Boltz... (9/16/2008 2:30:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW
While I understand the implications of this sin, it has been so abhorant to the church that they will not help those who are being tempted that way. There are programs for alcoholics, adulterers, people caught in porn addictions, and anger management classes. There is nothing for anyone struggling with a same gender attraction.

Dave, there are such programs. In any case, I'm not aware of many churches that embrace someone that decides to quit struggling (and we ALL have struggled with something) with an urge to become a drunk, adulterer, wallow in porn addiction, and give vent to uncontrollable anger.

Churches offer help with struggling and with recovery. I just can't find many biblically sound churches offering encouragement in continuing or choosing to engage in open sin.



crankius -> RE: pray for Ray Boltz... (9/16/2008 2:30:20 PM)

We are to confess our sins to one another--not just those sins that have a specific support group.

I am confident that God had people in Ray's life whom he could have confessed to and who would have helped him if he was repentant and seeking support.

A church has a pastor/elders/deacons/teachers/ministers, compassionate and caring brothers and sisters in Christ, who are more than happy to be there for one another when someone is trying to resist temptation.

We need to be careful that we aren't setting up excuses for us to not confess our sins to one another. My church didn't have a support group for my particular sin doesn't quite cut it.



stateofgrace -> RE: pray for Ray Boltz... (9/16/2008 3:28:28 PM)

crankius,

The original interview alludes to a time that Boltz considered - but didn't pursue - a program (outside his local church) that might have supported him leaving the path he was on. OTOH, Mike Haley "ran into" two people - someone attempting to leave the lifestyle, and then that person's counselor - in the course of one evening - and God apparently used those two people in convicting Haley to repent and leave the path he was on.

I know we can "what if" a past situation to death, but certainly there are churches out there where people fall through the cracks; where otherwise well-meaning believers don't notice people who are struggling and need acountability/support.

Boltz apparently also struggled with depression (and likely still does - I seriously doubt that "coming out" has made that disappear) and many of us know first-hand that a lot of churches don't deal with THAT well.



redeemedsaint -> RE: pray for Ray Boltz... (9/16/2008 4:48:41 PM)

Wow this is news to me. I will be praying for Ray that he will not be in bondage to this sin. I know what it is like when something like this has a grip on you. I am surrounded by some good godly Christian men who help me on my journey. I pray that he finds this same help.



gtrdave -> RE: pray for Ray Boltz... (9/16/2008 4:55:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: musica330

quote:

ORIGINAL: gtrdave

quote:

ORIGINAL: iluvatar

Why? Are the songs any less doctrinally sound than they were before you knew?



If the songs are about truth then that truth can't be taken away from them regardless of the moral failings of the writer, BUT is it right for others to go on singing those songs knowing the moral failings of the songwriter?



King David wrote many Psalms which we now sing in churches every week. Is it right for us to sing these songs knowing his moral failures? He was considered a man after God's own heart in spite of his failures. Personally, I don't condone the choices Mr. Boltz is now making but I feel it is completely unfair to take away his songs which convey spiritual truths that encourage believers world-wide.


I was asking a question and not stating a position, but in regards to your comment about David and any similarity between his life, his music and Ray's life and music, I can only say that we have the advantage of looking back on the whole of David's life and we're told that "he died in a good old age, full of days, riches, and honor".
Ray's story is not yet over and, so, we've yet to see how it plays out, if he repents, and if "honor" will be an acceptable word used to describe him despite his sins.



ofacejones79 -> RE: pray for Ray Boltz... (9/16/2008 5:11:23 PM)

You know. This is an issue with most of Christianity today. We're all human. Just pray for the guy and stop being so stinking judgmental.



MattPaasch -> RE: pray for Ray Boltz... (9/16/2008 5:27:02 PM)

Here's an interesting article worth reading. It touches on what has been discussed here.



gtrdave -> RE: pray for Ray Boltz... (9/16/2008 5:33:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MattPaasch

Here's an interesting article worth reading. It touches on what has been discussed here.


Although I haven't brought it up here, I typically use the expanded "it's who God made me to be" argument when these kinds of topics come up.
In my experience I've found few who actually like to engage in such a conversation because, I guess, it makes many addiction-prone people (me being one of them) very uncomfortable and requires one to really look at the truth sin that may well be embedded in our DNA.
Gee, who-da thunk it?



bigboytenor -> RE: pray for Ray Boltz... (9/16/2008 5:56:22 PM)

I think a huge problem here is that the MCC will tell people they were "born that way" or that "it's part of who you are" so "don't deny yourself."

Another huge problem is that for years the church has chosen homosexuality as its drum to beat. Therefore, the issue is that we, "the church," tend to not reach out to people like Ray Boltz. The church has written them off for decades. Anyone who is still breathing is savable (if that's a word). Peter wrote that "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Last time I checked any means ANY and all means ALL. To write off those who fall into sin and choose to stay there is an expression of a weak God and I, for one, DON'T SERVE A WEAK GOD! ! ! Sorry to shout, but this is a hot button with me.

I totally disagree with the sin Ray Boltz has chosen, but Paul wrote to the church in Rome that "the wages of sin is death. We don't get to choose which ones. Sin is sin. I'm fat because I overeat sometimes. My gluttony is just as much a sin as homosexuality. I know, I know . . . all of the KJV thumpers out there are gonna say, "Homosexuality is an abomination." Research the Hebrew and you may just discover that it means sin. I don't hear anyone coming down on me when I choose to overeat. The church needs to address sin period.

I'm far from a legalist, in fact, I despise legalism because it kills the grace of God. (Not my concept, I got it from Charles Swindoll.) However, the church needs to stand up and realize the stakes are eternal and if we don't steer brothers and sisters from a life of willful sin we're failing to carry out the Great Commission of making disciples. First John 3 says that when a person is saved he/she will not continue sinning. The Greek means that they will stop making provision to involve themselves in the sin. I'm done ranting, thanks for listening.



stellaluna -> RE: pray for Ray Boltz... (9/16/2008 7:11:51 PM)

Actually, MCC tends to teach that Paul was a homosexual.

I also believe the church as a whole has fallen down on the job when it comes to handling homosexuality and same-sex attraction. But as someone said earlier, the church not handling a sin well does not make it okay to indulge in it. And even if one could prove once and for all that homosexuality was biological, biology still doesn't trump sin.

In my opinion, Ray Boltz has announced his intent to live in persistent sin and that requires taking away the ministry he had until such time as he repents and is delivered from his sin. I would say the same if he was having an affair with someone of the opposite sex, or embezzling, or selling drugs. Doesn't make a bit of difference to me.



Kath -> RE: pray for Ray Boltz... (9/16/2008 7:25:57 PM)

Back when Sandy Patti was having the affair radio stations quit playing her music until she went through some sort of restoration, I wonder if they will do the same for Ray.



stellaluna -> RE: pray for Ray Boltz... (9/16/2008 7:53:40 PM)

That might be the best idea.



gtrdave -> RE: pray for Ray Boltz... (9/16/2008 8:14:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kath

Back when Sandy Patti was having the affair radio stations quit playing her music until she went through some sort of restoration, I wonder if they will do the same for Ray.


Sort of what I was eluding to before: the message of what a person is singing about may be true but the messenger, because of their sins, may not be seen as genuine.



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