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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2007 3:19:51 PM
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Lycea
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There will always be some textual problems as long as we are taking a text and translating it from the original language to English. I have an extremely high view of scripture, it's inspiration, it's authority, it's accuracy, and it's consistency. That is why I think it is important to struggle with some of these issues in the original language, with much prayer, to increase our understanding of God's message. Whenever there are seeming contradictions in the English text, I believe it is our faulty understanding, not faulty inspiration. And I believe the Holy Spirit is sufficient to guide us into all truth as we seek to understand God's message in the Bible.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2007 3:20:19 PM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lycea
I believe that in many cases what ought to be translated within the parameters of marriage, family, and home is instead translated more broadly to include the church, and sometimes beyond that into every male/female relationship. That kind of blanket application does contradict many scriptures, and I would say is inconsistent with a true pursuit of a systematic theology.
Very good comment. And very true.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2007 3:21:52 PM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ccoppenbarger
Interesting that a book about justifying women preachers would be written by a woman... 
Interesting that the translators who translated those few verses regarding women the way they did, though they could have been easily translated a different direction, were men....
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2007 3:24:10 PM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lycea
The other writing is also in favor of women, don't be mislead by the title, it is the beginning scripture that Fox dealt with.
The link to his writing is:
The woman learning in silence Just follow the link, and click on "starts at."
And if you note, his was written first. (Hers was complementary to his.) Both are great respecters of the scripture.
BTW my husband says in response to ccoppenbarger, "That is like saying a book against slavery is invalid because it was written by a slave."
(Not my words.  )
Lycea, Is this the same Fox who wrote the Fox's book of Martyrs?
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2007 3:31:22 PM
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Lycea
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No, different Fox.
This is George Fox, founder of the Religious Society of Friends, otherwise known as Quakers.
Foxe's Book of Martyrs was written by John Fox.
A note on Quakerism:
It started very Bible-based, and Christ-focused. These days there are three groups, some very Liberal, some middle ground, some very Evangelical. I fall into the Evangelical category. That is just to sort out any info or experience that some may have had with modern Quakers of different theological perspective. Thanks
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2007 3:37:13 PM
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benelchi
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quote:
Seems to me to be pretty black and white according to scripture. I see no textual problems. There's only textual problems if you want them to be.
Or, if you bother to study the issue at all.
I don't think many want to there to be questions that are difficult to answer; or want there to be room for opinions that differ from their own. However, most scholars will acknowledge the difficulties with their own position and the merits of positions to which they do not hold. Although we are continually learning more about life in the first century, all scholars will acknowledge that our understanding of first century culture and especially our understanding of the situation that was being directly addressed in these biblical passages is extremely limited, so every position must be supported by some amount of supposition (which so far remains unproven). Yes, the evidence does support some assumptions better than others, and the evidence does exclude some assumptions altogether, but as much as you might wish, the evidence we have does not exclude the possibility of every other interpretation other than your own.
< Message edited by benelchi -- 12/3/2007 3:43:18 PM >
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 12/4/2007 1:02:19 AM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
Seems to me to be pretty black and white according to scripture. I see no textual problems. There's only textual problems if you want them to be.
Or, if you bother to study the issue at all.
I don't think many want there to be questions that are difficult to answer; or want there to be room for opinions that differ from their own. However, most scholars will acknowledge the difficulties with their own position and the merits of positions to which they do not hold. Although we are continually learning more about life in the first century, all scholars will acknowledge that our understanding of first century culture and especially our understanding of the situation that was being directly addressed in these biblical passages is extremely limited, so every position must be supported by some amount of supposition (which so far remains unproven). Yes, the evidence does support some assumptions better than others, and the evidence does exclude some assumptions altogether, but as much as you might wish, the evidence we have does not exclude the possibility of every other interpretation other than your own.
That was put so well, I wish I could remember it so that one day I could pull it out of my pocket when I need it. "The evidence we have does not exclude the possibility of every other interpretation other than your own." Neat.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 12/10/2007 5:59:46 AM
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Marksman
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I have just looked up the greek of "husband of one wife" (again) and it says that an Elder must be blameless, the husband of one woman, specifically a wife. This makes the meaning very clear. A woman can't be an Elder.
To paraphrase an Elder must be blameless; must be a husband and must be the husband of one wife. Whether you read that as an injuction against polygamy it doesn't alter the fact that an Elder must be a man.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 12/10/2007 2:00:16 PM
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GroupW
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I posted on this one earlier I think. I'll summarize that post here rather than babble on too much.
Do you really mean to say then that Paul rules himself out as an elder as a single person? That would seem quite odd to me given that he functioned as such. In fact, it seems to me such an internal conflict within Paul's writings that you simply have to dig deeper. I have an extremely hard time accepting the necessary implications here that Paul is ruling himself out as an elder or that he was not functioning in a like capacity as an elder. That's a huge stretch in my mind. To resolve the conflict, I simply have to insist that there is more to the passage than a surface reading would imply.
Benelchi said it best, but things are clear here if you wish them to be and not so clear if you wish them not to be.
Do me a favor and do a bit more digging on the greek again. There is an emphatic sense there as I posted in an earlier message - "husband of one wife" is possibly more accurately translated as "husband of but one wife", turning the emphasis the passage onto monogamy rather than gender. If that reading is possible, then it would further make sense that Paul addresses this to men and men only since polyandry (more than one husband) was not in view at that time in this location. The use of the masculine here would then not necessarily preclude the inclusion of the feminine.
I think both readings here are possible - the traditional complementarian as well as the egalitarian. The one that is less conflicting in my opinion would he the reading focused on polygamy.
Again, that's just my opinion and reasonable people will disagree.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 12/10/2007 6:14:23 PM
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Lycea
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Okay, just a question...Marksman didn't you just post this on the "Abolish Denominations" thread?
quote:
They (the early church) had nothing like our sunday morning meeting with singing, communion and sermons by one person. They mainly met to share meals together or to exercise the gifts of the spirit for the building up of the Body of Christ where everyone was considered an able minister of the new covenant. In fact Paul insisted that everyone was responsible for the spiritual growth of the church. It is commonly known as the priesthood of all believers, not the priesthood of a select few as we have today. (Parenthesis and emphasis mine)
I am confused...Why the double-talk?
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 12/10/2007 7:51:47 PM
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cybrjewls
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fritzpw_Admin
Discuss the issues surrounding the role of women within the church.
Paul writes in Scripture regarding authority not position in the church. Man was already given this authority at the fall at the tree in that adam fell out of love for his wife. However, Paul says that an unmarried woman is wholly devoted to The Lord. Whereas, The Lord chooses who gets what in His Kingdom, let us bear in mind that The Lord came as a Man Incarnate and therefore a Man has authority at all times over a woman, that Man is Jesus Christ who was given all authority in heaven and on earth. So then we can bear this is mind if The Lord chooses to use women in church ministry. Adam was not deceived, Eve was. She has more reason to fall than Adam.
That also, the body of believers in The Lambs book of Life is pictorially represented as His bride in Revelation with 12 stars on her head. These are also known as the Body of Christ together as separate parts of that Body. They are the scattered children of the true Israel. For a Jew will not be considered a Jew only if they are born so in the flesh.
< Message edited by prophetica -- 12/10/2007 7:58:15 PM >
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 12/12/2007 6:37:59 PM
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Marksman
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quote:
I am confused...Why the double-talk?
There is no double talk as they deal with different issues. The Timothy one is about oversight of the church which is clearly male and the other is about ministering in a meeting when the church came together to exercise the spirtual gifts i.e. tongues, interpretation, prophecy, word of knowledge etc.
Paul was making it quite clear that when the church came together for this purpose, everyone had a responsibility for the spiritual growth of the body. In meetings of this kind, which I experienced for 10 years in England, the Holy Spirit decides who does what and all we had to do is make ourselves available through heart preparation. Because he decides who does what he obviously is going to choose people according to God's will and his revealed word.
The meetings I went to had no pastor, no preacher, no pulpit and no programme devised by man. I realise that it is difficult to get your head around such a concept unless you have actually been there and seen it happen and been part of it.
Outside of the meetings, none of the women exercised any oversight of the fellowship as it was in the hands of seven male Elders, none of whom was paid a salary.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 12/12/2007 6:56:40 PM
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Lycea
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Sounds like a Quaker meeting. It is not difficult for me to wrap my head around, since that is the tradition I grew up in. What denomination/organization was that group affiliated with?
Most who post against women in leadership roles also argue against women preaching/prophecying/etc. and make no distinction between modern church leadership roles and exercising the gifts of public ministry. I apologize for my assumption.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 12/13/2007 10:08:25 AM
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GroupW
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Marksman-
You know I always have to disagree when someone uses the word "clearly" along with 1 Tim 2. 
Figured you'd be disappointed if I didn't object.
BT
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 12/14/2007 8:41:21 PM
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Marksman
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quote:
What denomination/organization was that group affiliated with?
It wasn't affiliated with anyone. It was the first fellowship in England that expressed itself as a what I call "charismatic brethren". The founder was a Brethren Elder who got kicked out because he spoke in tongues, so he started a bible study in his home which turned into a full blown church fellowship, which in turn was a model for people who came from all over the country to see what the secret of our success was to coin a phrase, and as a result hundreds of other fellowships came into being around the country but we never ever exercised any control over them, never had a denominational statement that they had to adhere to and didn't tell them how to run their meetings. We had seven travelling ministries who used to go around visiting them and giving them encouragement and advice. My job took me all over the country so I used to do the same when I was in a town where a fellowship existed.
Our major strengths were the priesthood of all believers (no paid pastors) and being led by the spirit (not by the pastor). As a result anyone and everyone were encouraged to be involved in ministry and the supernatural, not just a select few. The Eldership of the church believed that the Holy Spirit could do a better job of leading the church than they could so they let him get on with it.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 12/16/2007 12:10:12 AM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marksman
Our major strengths were the priesthood of all believers (no paid pastors) and being led by the spirit (not by the pastor). As a result anyone and everyone were encouraged to be involved in ministry and the supernatural, not just a select few. The Eldership of the church believed that the Holy Spirit could do a better job of leading the church than they could so they let him get on with it.
wow, that sounds great.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 12/20/2007 10:32:28 PM
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Marksman
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In a word, it was. If you didn't get there at least 30 minutes before the meeting started you couldn't get a seat. And get this, the front seats always filled up first, not like most churches where the back seats fill up first so if you are late you have to go down to the front.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 12/21/2007 2:46:43 AM
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sunofone
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I've not posted on this topic for quite some time.I have been following the argument closely however.I have been thinking here of late that this question of Women's role in the church is less about historical perspective and the turn or definition of a word or words.
It is what God has to say about Women and it starts from creation.Paul uses his basis for what seems like harsh language in our present times on Gods perspective of the Women.She was made after Adam as a helpmeet.She was deceived by the serpent and then gave to Adam causing sin to enter into the world.
As a result of her transgression she was placed in a subservient role by God,and it was to be continued even in the church.
This is not to suggest that God loves the Woman less;it does however suggest that he has ordained a system of hiearchy.God is after all a God of order,and he has set an order in place.It is undeniable that in terms of Women being in roles of authority over men it was not existent from Genesis forward notwithstanding meaningful contributions by Women not the least of which Deborah.
When the church began to grow and more and more gentiles became a part of the church,it seems Paul had to restate the ordained and proper role of the Women in regards to her place in the church and at home.
It sort of pains me to come to these conclusions because I want to believe that it is acceptable for Women to fulfill roles as preachers and teachers and have equality if you will.I want to do what is pleasing in the sight of God more however.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 12/22/2007 1:23:00 AM
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Marksman
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quote:
It sort of pains me to come to these conclusions because I want to believe that it is acceptable for Women to fulfill roles as preachers and teachers and have equality if you will.I want to do what is pleasing in the sight of God more however.
The thought that is going through my mind as I read this part of your post is how much the church has compromised its place in society. It seemed to slowly wake up from its slumber and realise that it was losing its relevance and out came the 'pop culture' response to try and remain relevant.
So we added rock music to attract the young, which has produced an expression of faith 3 miles wide and 3 inches deep, we added female leaders to appeal to the feminist demand for equality and as a result the men are deserting the church in droves, and we have turfed out core values like taking up our cross, holiness and losing our life and as a result we have produced an expression of christianity that is all about me and 'feeling good' about myself.
What is the end result? Like so many times before when the church has become impotent as a result of their compromise, God raises up a new generation that says 'back to the bible and the cross'. They leave established religion to get in touch with God again for themselves rather than through the church or the minister. A whole new move of God takes place and all the established institutionalised religion can say is "be careful, it must be of the devil because they are not doing what we are doing and they don't believe with the purity that we do."
I guess we can't get more pure than believing in nothing and as has been said if you believe in nothing you will believe in anything such as shallow pop christianity, female leaders to keep feminist society happy and 'feel good' experience.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 12/24/2007 1:08:04 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofoneIt sort of pains me to come to these conclusions because I want to believe that it is acceptable for Women to fulfill roles as preachers and teachers and have equality if you will.I want to do what is pleasing in the sight of God more however.
There's a good book to read on the supposedly heirarchical writings here. Wm. Webb's "Slaves, Women, and Homosexuals"
A pretty good read, high view of scripture and a productive way in which to approach these issues. Give it a shot sometime and then send me a PM or post here and let me know if you still hold to these conclusions.
You've probably read all my posts, so you know that I don't think the bible really teaches that there is a desired heirarchy. If Paul really wanted to teach a heirarchical structure, my opinion is that he would have used the words that had more clear heirarchical meanings. Instead he uses some very nuanced terms. I think you have to ask why he softened & nuanced the language there. What heirarchy we see today and through history is in my opinion a result of the fall - Webb's book explains this better than I can, so I won't bore you with another one of my long posts.
Would love to get some conservative's opinions on his book sometime.
BT
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 12/24/2007 2:19:41 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
Would love to get some conservative's opinions on his book sometime.
Opinions are a dime a dozen and books written to controvert the clear teachings of Scripture are legion. The only thing that should concern us is what is written in Scripture. God has not left us to wonder or wallow in confusion. But no matter how clear Scripture is, there is always someone who will come along and claim that Scripture does not really say what it says.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 12/24/2007 5:39:37 PM
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stephanos
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bterpstra
There's a good book to read on the supposedly heirarchical writings here. Wm. Webb's "Slaves, Women, and Homosexuals"
Would love to get some conservative's opinions on his book sometime.
BT
Well I found some quite easily. That being said, you probably will dismiss and ignore them because they are from that "evil" CBMW.
But here you go so you can see for yourself.
Review by Thomas R. Schreiner
Review by Wayne Grudem
Both are fairly extensive reviews, books in their own rights. Truly both of them were written as journal articles. It should be noted that the Schreiner article was written first and that Grudem references the earlier review in his own review.
There you go...Two "conservative" reviews.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 12/24/2007 7:09:02 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
Well I found some quite easily. That being said, you probably will dismiss and ignore them because they are from that "evil" CBMW.
But here you go so you can see for yourself.
Both are fairly extensive reviews, books in their own rights. Truly both of them were written as journal articles. It should be noted that the Schreiner article was written first and that Grudem references the earlier review in his own review.
There you go...Two "conservative" reviews.
Thanks. I'll look at both. You're right, I probably won't like them, but there's a huge difference between liking something and learning from it. If I only read the stuff I liked, I would be well-read but not very well educated. You gotta read the stuff you DON'T like if you want to know what the weak points in your views are.
Time for the Christmas eve service. Gotta run. Hope you enjoy your holidays as much as I will. Also hope you don't gain as much weight as I will.
BT
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 1/1/2008 5:37:35 PM
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cobblestone
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Hi, this is my first post, and I have to say that I was really impressed with how this discussion began and the level of maturity of the participants in being able to discuss this topic using scripture and not tradition. I've only read the posts dated from 2005 so I haven't seen how the thread has progressed from there.
My comment is about women of the bible, as representatives of the submissive role of Jesus ultimately, and also, therefore, as representatives of the bride's role to Jesus as the bridegroom, of which men represent the pattern.
Women's long neglect of teaching and passing on to younger women their beautiful place of being the bride's representative(of which traditional churches have helped to suffocate through the misuse of scripture by silencing women. period) needs to be revived. Or developed.
I pray that the need for this will be rcognised. That the study of women will be seen as a study of us all in relationship to Christ. That the role of the husband will be seen as an earthly role and example of how God deals with the church and that we can all move on to being submissive in the bride as overcomers eguipted to be in the rightful role that Jesus set an example of in His relationship to the Father.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 1/10/2008 10:20:47 PM
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Lycea
Posts: 38
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From: Kansas
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quote:
So we added rock music to attract the young, which has produced an expression of faith 3 miles wide and 3 inches deep, we added female leaders to appeal to the feminist demand for equality and as a result the men are deserting the church in droves, and we have turfed out core values like taking up our cross, holiness and losing our life and as a result we have produced an expression of christianity that is all about me and 'feeling good' about myself.
I am concerned that your view of history only reaches back to the beginning of the 20th century. It may be true that there are churches that have added women ministers to appease feminists, there are other churches that have had women ministers since 1660 (Friends for example). I would challenge you to find a movement more characterized by self-sacrifice in following the Lamb of God than the early Friends. It is also erroneous to assume that there are so few men in the church because of women in leadership. Take a more broad view of history, please, and you will see that from the beginning there were a disproportionate number of women in the church.
I believe absolutely in the authority of the Word of God, and I believe whole-heartedly that the God of the Bible has called me to preach, and shepherd his people. With my husband by my side, and in wifely submission to his spiritual leadership, I am following that calling. It is not what I wanted to do (Music teacher then stay at home mom), it is something I do because I must submit myself to the calling of God on my life. If there was a way for me to honestly argue my way out with scripture, I would have done that 8 years ago, but the more I dug into studying the word, the more I found that the New Testament church had female leaders, and embraced the concept of women following the calling and gifting of the Holy Spirit.
If there are women out there ministering from any other motive, they are in the wrong, as are any men that are ministering from a self-serving heart.
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