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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 1/11/2008 9:12:23 PM
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davelinde
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lycea
I believe absolutely in the authority of the Word of God, and I believe whole-heartedly that the God of the Bible has called me to preach, and shepherd his people. With my husband by my side, and in wifely submission to his spiritual leadership, I am following that calling. It is not what I wanted to do (Music teacher then stay at home mom), it is something I do because I must submit myself to the calling of God on my life. If there was a way for me to honestly argue my way out with scripture, I would have done that 8 years ago, but the more I dug into studying the word, the more I found that the New Testament church had female leaders, and embraced the concept of women following the calling and gifting of the Holy Spirit.
I will also agree that a parallel to musical style and isolated apostasy is not compelling, and that there are many men who do not meet the Biblical criteria serving...
I'm curious though how you are able to find a hermeneutic that allows women to hold authority over men while at the same time preserving any specific roles within the home? Generally when one of those ideas falls under the blanket of a "social norm" the other falls with it.
Perhaps you've answered that earlier in this thread but I cannot remember all who have come and gone here and how they arrive at their conclusions...
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 1/12/2008 12:39:51 PM
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Lycea
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I believe that the issue of male/female roles is different from that of husband/wife roles.
The issue in the Greek is that the words for husband/wife are not different from those for man/woman. Context must be used to determine the meaning. There are varied translations of the passage in I Corinthians 11 "the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, the head of Christ is God" as to whether it is man/woman or husband/wife. In context it seems most likely that this is about husbands/wives. The chief passage used to say that women cannot teach men or have authority over them is connected to Adam and Eve, who are not just man and woman, but husband and wife. I interpret the passage to mean that a woman ought not to teach or have spiritual authority over her husband.
Many times in the New Testament it is stated that women should submit themselves to their husbands and respect them. I don't see this as a cultural or social norm. I also do not interpret them to mean that a woman has to be a doormat, or that she has no spiritual life apart from her husband. I believe men are the spiritual leaders in their homes, not that they should be or ought to be, but that they are. There is significant evidence of this in studies that show the difference in morality/church attendance, etc of children based on their fathers' involvement in their lives. Men are leading, the question is where?
I believe the issue of roles within the home should not be confused with that of roles in the church. People ought to serve in the church in the capacity which the Spirit has gifted them for regardless of gender.
_____________________________
It all boils down to this: Love God, Love Each Other.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 1/13/2008 5:01:34 PM
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Marksman
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From: Drouin, Victoria, Australia
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Of course a lot to do with it is what you determine to be leadership of the church. When one does an indepth study, which included consulting about 30 other authors on the subject, on the subject of biblical leadership, one finds that the very clear scriptural teaching on the subject is that until the church was legalised by Roman Civil Law, the church's leadership was by a plurality of elders who were not paid. At no point was the church led by a single salaried pastor. Those who did receive some sort of financial support were the travelling ministries like Paul and Barnabas who were supported by people who gave as they saw fit. They were not paid a weekly salary. However, the scripture makes it quite clear than when Paul was able to support himself and the others travelling with him financially, he did so.
Having a leadership by one man or woman who is paid a salary is a man made invention, primarily to exalt a clergy class above that of the laity, neither of which is in scripture.
When one looks at the facts and figures surrounding the one man/woman paid pastor concept, it is an absolute disaster with the psychological and physical trauma that it causes for the people concerned and the church in general, which is totally ineffective as overall its growth in the USA is 1% which I read in a book yesterday. I am not surprised by this as I checked out over 300 adverts for pastors in the USA and only a handful were concerned about their spiritual condition. Most adverts wanted men who had a degree, had done it before and could make things happen. Some adverts expected the pastor to do at least five jobs at once. No wonder they are ending up with mental breakdowns.
When elders were responsible for the church in the NT its growth was daily. I don't believe God calls anyone to do something that is contrary to his word. If we are desperate enough and determined enough we can ignore his word and make it say what we want it to say, especially if our denomination chooses to ignore the truth as the one I am involved with does.
< Message edited by Marksman -- 1/13/2008 5:10:23 PM >
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 1/13/2008 11:45:34 PM
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sunofone
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Well let the Church say amen!
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 2/14/2008 11:53:44 AM
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Lycea
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There were many women that Paul called his fellow workers, and at least one who he called a deacon--Phoebe in Romans 16. Apollos was taught by a couple, Priscilla and Aquila, who interestingly enough always had the woman's name preceding the man's which was a cultural no-no, so there must have been a reason for that.
Having said that, the issue is far from clear cut. There are also scriptures that do seem to restrict women in teaching roles. The question that we have to struggle with is to what extent those restrictions applied then and now.
Seek God's wisdom, guidance and interpretation of these scriptures. He is the only one who can lead you in his truth and not the traditions of man, both then and now.
_____________________________
It all boils down to this: Love God, Love Each Other.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 2/16/2008 3:41:45 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
Anyway, Do you guys have scriptures, knowledgeable words of wisdom for me to use in our friendly little debate?
If you really want the Scriptures and the "knowledgeable words of wisdom", work your way through this thread.
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 2/16/2008 3:49:32 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: alishamommyof5
Well I was hoping for a nice list of scriptures to prove it one way or the other. 
LOL - we'll you get a nice list on this thread. Proving it one way or another, well that's a different story! Like Ezra says, work your way through the entire thread (if you can!). Based on all the reading I've done, you'll cover pretty much the entire controversy here. I don't think we've left anything uncovered that I can think of.
Happy reading!
BT
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/5/2008 3:26:53 AM
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Marksman
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If you want the scriptures about leadership in the NT church as it relates to men and women go to http://churchalive66.googlepages.com I have set it out there and the views of 40 other authors.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/5/2008 10:17:34 AM
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GroupW
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[Link edited by Admin.]
CBE and CBMW are pretty much polar opposites. I'm generally annoyed with both of them since they both are so entrenched in their own respective positions that they can be a bit unchristlike at times. They are however decent resources for information.
< Message edited by Fritzpw_Admin -- 3/5/2008 1:10:48 PM >
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/5/2008 10:25:38 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1906
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
[Link edited by Admin.]
CBE and CBMW are pretty much polar opposites. I'm generally annoyed with both of them since they both are so entrenched in their own respective positions that they can be a bit unchristlike at times. They are however decent resources for information.
A number of people who support that center would probably qualify as heretics.
< Message edited by Fritzpw_Admin -- 3/5/2008 1:11:22 PM >
_____________________________
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God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/5/2008 10:27:19 AM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ccoppenbarger
quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
[Link Edited by Admin.]
CBE and CBMW are pretty much polar opposites. I'm generally annoyed with both of them since they both are so entrenched in their own respective positions that they can be a bit unchristlike at times. They are however decent resources for information.
A number of people who support that center would probably qualify as heretics.
Names and particular heresies please. For the most part, these are fairly well respected folk, and a fair bunch of evangelicals as well.
With all due respect, if you want to understand an issue like this that's heavily debated in the church, you have to study both sides. There's some good information on that site, just as there is over at CBMW. There's also a fair amount of hogswollop on both sides. To separate the holy from the hogswollop, you just can't read one half and ignore the other.
< Message edited by Fritzpw_Admin -- 3/5/2008 1:11:40 PM >
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/5/2008 10:35:11 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1906
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Brian McLaren - Social Gospel, Emergent Church
Jon Trott, Glenn & Wendi Kaiser - Jesus People, U.S.A. I need to go back and find my notes on them.
Greg Boyd - Open Theism (of course, he has a bone to pick with John Piper anyway)
Tony Campolo - Too focused on the social gospel as well.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/5/2008 10:44:58 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2713
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ccoppenbarger
Brian McLaren - Social Gospel, Emergent Church
Jon Trott, Glenn & Wendi Kaiser - Jesus People, U.S.A. I need to go back and find my notes on them.
Greg Boyd - Open Theism (of course, he has a bone to pick with John Piper anyway)
Tony Campolo - Too focused on the social gospel as well.
I'll give you the first three, though to some degree their standing as heretics is a bit misunderstood and gets wrapped up in semantics (to a degree).
(edit: I also think "heretic" might be a bit strong. Mistaken, to be sure, but heretic as in wrong to the point of no longer being Christian then no. If we're taking heretic to be "not 100% within mainstream orthodoxy" - whatever the heck that is - then we could have agreement. Now, there status as "not 100% within mainstream orthodoxy" doesn't necessarily preclude them from having something to say on this issue that's worthwhile.)
Along with those, there are a large number of evangelicals that conservatives otherwise approve of such as the Groothuis'.
Completely, vehemently, and categorically defend Tony Campolo. Last I checked, he taught Christ crucified, salvation by grace, and pretty much every other significant theological construct of conservative Christendom. The fact that he chooses to demonstrate his faith through social activism doesn't a heretic make. He's honked off a lot of conservatives with his social stands, but it's tough to argue that his social stands make him a heretic. Like the bumper sticker says, "God isn't spelled G-O-P"
CBE will tend to be a more diverse group by nature since the gender issue attracts all sorts. CBMW will by nature by a bit more homogeneous since the gender issue tends to be a lightening rod issue for a certain Christian subset.
For those that are inclined to study though, CBE and CBMW remain two of the few decent resources out there.
< Message edited by GroupW -- 3/5/2008 10:56:18 AM >
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 11:34:43 AM
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Lycea
Posts: 205
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From: Kansas
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Thanks for the resources. We sometimes need to be reminded that not everyone shares our views.
I agree 100% that we have to know the arguments on both sides of the issue, so that we can evaluate the validity of both.
As for orthodoxy, many issues that people are drawing the line on today aren't traditionally matters of heresy, but those chosen by some to make soapboxes from. Pretty much, if it is line with the basic premises of the creeds, it is orthodox, if not then heresy.
_____________________________
It all boils down to this: Love God, Love Each Other.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 12:42:30 PM
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GroupW
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Please note that the views of McLaren, Trott et al, and Boyd do not necessarily reflect the views of Christians for Biblical Equality and should not be viewed as having the implicit support of that organization. The following comprises the CBE statement of faith:
- We believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God, is reliable, and is the final authority for faith and practice.
- We believe in the work of the Holy Spirit in salvation, and in the power and presence of the Holy Spirit in the life of believers.
- We believe in the unity and trinity of God, eternally existing as three equal persons.
- We believe in the full deity and full humanity of Jesus Christ.
- We believe in the equality and essential dignity of men and women of all ethnicities, ages, and classes. We recognize that all persons are made in the image of God and are to reflect that image in the community of believers, in the home, and in society.
- We believe in the sinfulness of all persons. One result of sin is shattered relationships with God, others, and self. We believe that men and women are to diligently develop and use their God-given gifts for the good of the home, church and society.
- We believe that eternal salvation and restored relationships are possible through faith in Jesus Christ who died for us, rose from the dead, and is coming again. This salvation is offered to all people.
- We believe in the family, celibate singleness, and faithful heterosexual marriage as God's design.
- We believe that, as mandated by the Bible, men and women are to oppose injustice.
< Message edited by GroupW -- 3/7/2008 1:02:24 PM >
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 1:57:43 PM
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GroupW
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My apologies to all -
I did not realize that links to sites advocating an egalitarian approach to this issue were not allowed. Oops.
Embarrassing, eh? Sorry folks.
BT
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 3:10:32 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lycea
Thanks for the resources.
I agree 100% that we have to know the arguments on both sides of the issue, so that we can evaluate the validity of both.
Apparently, not everyone agrees.....
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/23/2008 7:57:27 PM
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cobblestone
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How many have actually investigated the validity of Paul's words whether or not his reference to "as the law says" refers to biblical law or rabinical law? I suggest the argument lays at the feet of interpretation of those words. For in fact the laws he quotes are not found in the old testement at all.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/23/2008 8:00:06 PM
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GroupW
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Do a search on this within this thread. There's some good discussion of it a number of pages back from here.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/23/2008 8:09:17 PM
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cobblestone
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Thank you, I'll try to find the posts. But for me the fact remains that Paul's reference is rabinical and not biblical. Of man not God. That's in direct reference to silence of women. No matter how one interprets the passage what is being considered isn't biblical. Period. Anything else is interpretating Torah.
edit: I can hear it! But Paul's words are biblical! Paul states it's rabinical by adding the words "as the law says" Clearly it's not old testement law he was refering to.
Misdeeds, mistrust, unequality, suppression of the Spirit,
Why is rabinical law being held onto?
Is it because then women would have a say in interpretation? Becuase when they have no voice that's what happens. No women are allowed to interpret scripture according to church tradition. That's quenching the Spirit.
It's the most unjust falacy of scripture there is. If it were not so this would no longer be an issue.
< Message edited by cobblestone -- 3/23/2008 8:26:29 PM >
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/24/2008 1:33:23 AM
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SD456
Posts: 1428
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cobblestone
Thank you, I'll try to find the posts. But for me the fact remains that Paul's reference is rabinical and not biblical. Of man not God. That's in direct reference to silence of women. No matter how one interprets the passage what is being considered isn't biblical. Period. Anything else is interpretating Torah.
edit: I can hear it! But Paul's words are biblical! Paul states it's rabinical by adding the words "as the law says" Clearly it's not old testement law he was refering to.
Misdeeds, mistrust, unequality, suppression of the Spirit,
Why is rabinical law being held onto?
Is it because then women would have a say in interpretation? Becuase when they have no voice that's what happens. No women are allowed to interpret scripture according to church tradition. That's quenching the Spirit.
It's the most unjust falacy of scripture there is. If it were not so this would no longer be an issue.
Yes, I've always found it sad that it is men who have interpreted the scriptures, and have always leaned against women being empowered by the Holy Spirit in any difinitive way, and I fully believe that is not biblical. Nor is it the heart of God.
These past pages have been very good. There is much research that people have made on the topic. IMO the words are translated incorrectly in the english.
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http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 3/24/2008 9:15:15 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 2413
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
quote:
ORIGINAL: cobblestone
Thank you, I'll try to find the posts. But for me the fact remains that Paul's reference is rabinical and not biblical. Of man not God. That's in direct reference to silence of women. No matter how one interprets the passage what is being considered isn't biblical. Period. Anything else is interpretating Torah.
edit: I can hear it! But Paul's words are biblical! Paul states it's rabinical by adding the words "as the law says" Clearly it's not old testement law he was refering to.
Misdeeds, mistrust, unequality, suppression of the Spirit,
Why is rabinical law being held onto?
Is it because then women would have a say in interpretation? Becuase when they have no voice that's what happens. No women are allowed to interpret scripture according to church tradition. That's quenching the Spirit.
It's the most unjust falacy of scripture there is. If it were not so this would no longer be an issue.
Yes, I've always found it sad that it is men who have interpreted the scriptures, and have always leaned against women being empowered by the Holy Spirit in any difinitive way, and I fully believe that is not biblical. Nor is it the heart of God.
These past pages have been very good. There is much research that people have made on the topic. IMO the words are translated incorrectly in the english.
I have seen some good arguments for an Egalitarian position including many on this thread, but this is not one of them.
When you question someone's interpretation and motives simply because they are "men" you have added nothing helpful to this discussion. The reality is that being a "man" really has nothing to do with why most in the church have come to the conclusions that they have. There are many examples of woman who in their studies have concluded that the "traditional" interpretation of these passages is the correct one, and there are many men who have studied these same passages and believe that an Egalitarian position is the correct one. (and many that hold a position somewhere in the middle). The book "women in ministry: four views" has examples of both.
If you want your position to have a fair hearing, you need to be fair in your presentation. Simply stating that "It's the most unjust fallacy of scripture there is." doesn't help. Tone in down, and give more details about why you believe that these passages have been misinterpreted, and be ready to backup your assertions with objective and verifiable facts. Don't simply state that "the words are translated incorrectly in the English.", but give concrete examples of these "mistranslations", and the basis for your opinion that these passages have been mistranslated into English.
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