|
|
|
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 2:55:50 PM
|
|
|
Qtman
Posts: 6323
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: stephanos
quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
You are not arguing with me. You are arguing with Paul. He said it I just quoted it.
So you completely reject inspiration? God only inspired part of scripture not all of it? I guess that God did not inspire and have paul write 2nd Timothy 3:16-7...you know..."ALL scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."
I guess Paul's writings are not scripture then. For if ALL scripture is inspired, and some of paul's writings are his own and not inspired...Then his writings are not scripture. And we should do away with Romans through Philemon.
It must really hurt to be shown you are wrong. I did not say any of those things in any post I have ever made.
_____________________________
At one time Jesus was my co-pilot. Things are much better now that He and I have changed seats.
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 2:58:21 PM
|
|
|
stephanos
Posts: 786
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
Status: offline
|
Goodness I wish people would stop using archaic translations..."succorer"...???? Good grief.
How about let us look at the Greek shall we?
The word used here is prostatis. This is only used once in the NT. But...It IS used in contemporary writings. And when it is used it almost ALWAYS means "benefactor" or "patron". There is no mention of "spiritual" leadership or anything of the kind. Even the masculine form of this word prostates (which is not used in the NT, only in contremp writings), has no spiritual connotation. It like prostatis, prostates means "one who looks out for others" or "benefactor". It also is used to denote one who is a "defender" or "guardian" of the faith. A modern word you could use would be apologist. But, back in the context, it is "prostatis many" or "helped many". Pheobe was almost certainly a wealthy widow of some standing in the Roman world. She clearly used what God has given her to benefit the church. She was known and respected by many, including Paul. But there is no scriptural support for her being any type of spiritual leader for or over the church.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 2:59:11 PM
|
|
|
rawr.ben
Posts: 2736
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
6But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.
12But to the rest speak I, not the Lord
Here are a few quotes from Paul where he says it is him speaking not God, and he always tells us when he is speaking or when he has a command from the Lord.
Paul plainly tells us what is of God(scripture) and what is not.
Even if Paul said "this is me" it doesn't mean it is not authoritative to us. As an apostle of the Messiah, he was given authority, the right to bind and loose, and was there to lay down the foundation of the church for us.
_____________________________
rawr.ben
Facebook
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 3:01:20 PM
|
|
|
Qtman
Posts: 6323
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rawr.ben
quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
6But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.
12But to the rest speak I, not the Lord
Here are a few quotes from Paul where he says it is him speaking not God, and he always tells us when he is speaking or when he has a command from the Lord.
Paul plainly tells us what is of God(scripture) and what is not.
Even if Paul said "this is me" it doesn't mean it is not authoritative to us. As an apostle of the Messiah, he was given authority, the right to bind and loose, and was there to lay down the foundation of the church for us.
Never said he wasn't. That is not even the debate I responded to. I simply stated that all of Paul's writings were not commandments from God but some of them were from Paul himself. He even said the same thing. Read the post young man.
_____________________________
At one time Jesus was my co-pilot. Things are much better now that He and I have changed seats.
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 3:04:56 PM
|
|
|
myka
Posts: 982
Status: offline
|
quote:
You claim myka that Paul only uses this as minister or deacon. That is wrong. Lets see Paul in 2nd Corinthians 2:4 and 11:15, 1st Tim 4:6, are used in the context of servants. In 1st Thess 3:2, the concept of worker is used. In Colossians 4:7, we see a illusion to "letter bearer"...At the very least it is again a servant.
I couldn't find the word in 2 Cor 2:4. In 2 cor 11:15, Paul is discussing false apostles who are teaching incorrect doctrine. 1 Timothy is addressing Timothy, the pastor of the church. 1 Thess. 3:2 refers to Timothy as a minister to strengthen the church in its faith. All of these have a connotation of spiritual authority.
Col 4:7 refers to a 'letter bearer' who has the authority to bring the message from Paul.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 3:09:19 PM
|
|
|
sirwintery
Posts: 2505
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: stephanos
But there is no scriptural support for her being any type of spiritual leader for or over the church.
Why a patroness rather than an assistant?
Fair enough that there's no support for being "over the church", but "the wealthy widow who delivers letters" is speculation. I don't think that her business that Paul speaks of, as a deaconess/patroness/minister of the Cenchrean church would be a personal secular pursuit in the context of having need of help from the lengthy list of Christian men and women Paul is addressing.
I think it takes more reaching to get rid of a deaconess than to keep her.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 3:12:39 PM
|
|
|
benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
|
quote:
Even if Paul said "this is me" it doesn't mean it is not authoritative to us.
Nor, does it mean that it is authoritative to us. There are many places in Scripture where a command was given to a specific person at a specific time and that command only applied to them (not everyone who read it). For example, Naaman was commanded by Elisha to dip himself in the Jordon seven times to be cured of leprosy; however, that doesn't mean that every leper who reads this passage is commanded to go and dip themselves in the Jordon. It is a huge interpretive mistake to look at every command given in Scripture as if it were directed equally towards us as it was to the original recipients of that command. While I do think it is a huge mistake to look at passages like 1st Corrinthians 7:12 and conclude these are Paul's words rather than God's, it is not a mistake to be aware of the limited scope that Paul placed on these words and realize that they may be addressed to a specific set of people and generally towards all.
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 3:17:59 PM
|
|
|
stephanos
Posts: 786
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SirWintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: stephanos
But there is no scriptural support for her being any type of spiritual leader for or over the church.
Why a patroness rather than an assistant?
Fair enough that there's no support for being "over the church", but "the wealthy widow who delivers letters" is speculation. I don't think that her business that Paul speaks of, as a deaconess/patroness/minister of the Cenchrean church would be a personal secular pursuit in the context of having need of help from the lengthy list of Christian men and women Paul is addressing.
I think it takes more reaching to get rid of a deaconess than to keep her.
How is it streching? First, that is what the word prostatis means! It means BENEFACTOR! PATRON! Secondly, the "I commend..." or sunistemi means "to recomend", "to send" "to introduce". Clearly Pheobe is arriving at Rome at the SAME TIME as this letter. So tell me...How did this letter get from Corith (where Paul was at the time he wrote Romans) to Rome? Are you trying to tell me that Pheobe and this letter both went from Corinth to Rome completely separate? Pheobe was from Cenchrea which was the harbor city for Corinth. I tell you, it may not be clear in the english...But in the Greek it is VERY clear that Pheobe brought the letter of Romans to Rome from Paul.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 3:20:52 PM
|
|
|
Qtman
Posts: 6323
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
Even if Paul said "this is me" it doesn't mean it is not authoritative to us.
Nor, does it mean that it is authoritative to us. There are many places in Scripture where a command was given to a specific person at a specific time and that command only applied to them (not everyone who read it). For example, Naaman was commanded by Elisha to dip himself in the Jordon seven times to be cured of leprosy; however, that doesn't mean that every leper who reads this passage is commanded to go and dip themselves in the Jordon. It is a huge interpretive mistake to look at every command given in Scripture as if it were directed equally towards us as it was to the original recipients of that command. While I do think it is a huge mistake to look at passages like 1st Corrinthians 7:12 and conclude these are Paul's words rather than God's, it is not a mistake to be aware of the limited scope that Paul placed on these words and realize that they may be addressed to a specific set of people and generally towards all.
As someone I have the utmost respect for please explain this. Paul himself said it was him and not the Lord. What did he mean by this? BTW I have not taken the time to labor over the Greek to make sure this is a good translation. Maybe tonight.
_____________________________
At one time Jesus was my co-pilot. Things are much better now that He and I have changed seats.
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 3:22:29 PM
|
|
|
gmcspice
Posts: 656
Joined: 12/26/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
Even if Paul said "this is me" it doesn't mean it is not authoritative to us. As an apostle of the Messiah, he was given authority, the right to bind and loose, and was there to lay down the foundation of the church for us.
Actually Paul says in a few places for us to judge of ourselves what is agreeable and disagreeable in the Body of Christ.
And as I recall Christ is the foundation, Not Paul.
Paul tells us to go according to what Christ teaches.
And the binding and loosing Christ is talking about is for all saints in the Body of Christ not just limited to his apostles.
Those in Christ have the power of the Holy Ghost, remember that.
_____________________________
To have friends, you have to be a friend!
gmcspice4GOD
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 3:26:12 PM
|
|
|
sirwintery
Posts: 2505
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: stephanos
quote:
ORIGINAL: SirWintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: stephanos
But there is no scriptural support for her being any type of spiritual leader for or over the church.
Why a patroness rather than an assistant?
Fair enough that there's no support for being "over the church", but "the wealthy widow who delivers letters" is speculation. I don't think that her business that Paul speaks of, as a deaconess/patroness/minister of the Cenchrean church would be a personal secular pursuit in the context of having need of help from the lengthy list of Christian men and women Paul is addressing.
I think it takes more reaching to get rid of a deaconess than to keep her.
How is it streching? First, that is what the word prostatis means! It means BENEFACTOR! PATRON! Secondly, the "I commend..." or sunistemi means "to recomend", "to send" "to introduce". Clearly Pheobe is arriving at Rome at the SAME TIME as this letter. So tell me...How did this letter get from Corith (where Paul was at the time he wrote Romans) to Rome? Are you trying to tell me that Pheobe and this letter both went from Corinth to Rome completely separate? Pheobe was from Cenchrea which was the harbor city for Corinth. I tell you, it may not be clear in the english...But in the Greek it is VERY clear that Pheobe brought the letter of Romans to Rome from Paul.
No, no, I'm referring to the lengths you go to create this person. People are REAL happy to hear that a woman gave money to ministry but it's a real neck-breaker to follow you off the page to the wealthy widow whose only service is to give and deliver letters. It's easier to me to see a woman who had some role which Paul considered helpful to himself and others with a role to play in the Cenchrean church, and if Phebe's name were Mark or John there'd be unanimous support that here was a deacon on a mission for his church.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 3:29:59 PM
|
|
|
stephanos
Posts: 786
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SirWintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: stephanos
quote:
ORIGINAL: SirWintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: stephanos
But there is no scriptural support for her being any type of spiritual leader for or over the church.
Why a patroness rather than an assistant?
Fair enough that there's no support for being "over the church", but "the wealthy widow who delivers letters" is speculation. I don't think that her business that Paul speaks of, as a deaconess/patroness/minister of the Cenchrean church would be a personal secular pursuit in the context of having need of help from the lengthy list of Christian men and women Paul is addressing.
I think it takes more reaching to get rid of a deaconess than to keep her.
How is it streching? First, that is what the word prostatis means! It means BENEFACTOR! PATRON! Secondly, the "I commend..." or sunistemi means "to recomend", "to send" "to introduce". Clearly Pheobe is arriving at Rome at the SAME TIME as this letter. So tell me...How did this letter get from Corith (where Paul was at the time he wrote Romans) to Rome? Are you trying to tell me that Pheobe and this letter both went from Corinth to Rome completely separate? Pheobe was from Cenchrea which was the harbor city for Corinth. I tell you, it may not be clear in the english...But in the Greek it is VERY clear that Pheobe brought the letter of Romans to Rome from Paul.
No, no, I'm referring to the lengths you go to create this person. People are REAL happy to hear that a woman gave money to ministry but it's a real neck-breaker to follow you off the page to the wealthy widow whose only service is to give and deliver letters. It's easier to me to see a woman who had some role which Paul considered helpful to himself and others with a role to play in the Cenchrean church, and if Phebe's name were Mark or John there'd be unanimous support that here was a deacon on a mission for his church.
And you are rejecting what the scriptures clearly say. prostatis means benefactor, patron. There is no other meaning for this word. Trying to say that the "help" she gave was some sort of spiritual leadership is to completely reject the meaning of this word.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 3:31:28 PM
|
|
|
stephanos
Posts: 786
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
Status: offline
|
BTW...ESV translates this word correctly.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 3:40:52 PM
|
|
|
sirwintery
Posts: 2505
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: stephanos
BTW...ESV translates this word correctly.
I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church at Cenchreae, that you may welcome her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints, and help her in whatever she may need from you, for she has been a patron of many and of myself as well. Greet Prisca and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus,
(Romans 16:1-3)
But at least Priscilla is "elevated" to a fellow worker in verse 3.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 3:50:14 PM
|
|
|
stephanos
Posts: 786
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SirWintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: stephanos
BTW...ESV translates this word correctly.
I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church at Cenchreae, that you may welcome her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints, and help her in whatever she may need from you, for she has been a patron of many and of myself as well. Greet Prisca and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus,
(Romans 16:1-3)
But at least Priscilla is "elevated" to a fellow worker in verse 3.
Seeing as Prisca and Aquila are the ideal that a couple in ministry together should strive for...I dont know where you are going with this. Prisca and Aquila were a team, who worked together with (possibly) different skill sets to further the kingdom of God. Paul calls them out as a great example of "fellow workers" for the ministry. No one here is saying that a woman can not be a worker for the ministry. Especially not when she is working in tandem with her husband.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 3:51:31 PM
|
|
|
benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
Even if Paul said "this is me" it doesn't mean it is not authoritative to us.
Nor, does it mean that it is authoritative to us. There are many places in Scripture where a command was given to a specific person at a specific time and that command only applied to them (not everyone who read it). For example, Naaman was commanded by Elisha to dip himself in the Jordon seven times to be cured of leprosy; however, that doesn't mean that every leper who reads this passage is commanded to go and dip themselves in the Jordon. It is a huge interpretive mistake to look at every command given in Scripture as if it were directed equally towards us as it was to the original recipients of that command. While I do think it is a huge mistake to look at passages like 1st Corrinthians 7:12 and conclude these are Paul's words rather than God's, it is not a mistake to be aware of the limited scope that Paul placed on these words and realize that they may be addressed to a specific set of people and generally towards all.
As someone I have the utmost respect for please explain this. Paul himself said it was him and not the Lord. What did he mean by this? BTW I have not taken the time to labor over the Greek to make sure this is a good translation. Maybe tonight.
The question comes down to how we view the inspiration of Scripture i.e. was Paul inspired by God when he wrote these words? I think the answer to that question always is yes. That being said, I do think that these words are indications by Paul (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) that we should be cautious about applying these things as a general command. Common sense should tell us that there really is a reason Paul made this distinction in these passages, and we should be diligently seeking to discover why he said this before applying the subsequent command to the whole body of Christ. The difference is, I think, subtle but important i.e. do we believe that these passages are not Scripture or do we believe these passages are Scripture that may have a specific application to a particular person or group rather than a general application to all.
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 3:52:39 PM
|
|
|
sirwintery
Posts: 2505
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
|
(Romans 16:1)
ALT (Analytical-Literal Translation)
Now I commend to you* Phoebe our sister, being a servant [or, deaconess] of the assembly [or, church], the [one] in Cenchrea,
Bishops
I commende vnto you Phebe our sister, whiche is a minister of the Church of Cenchrea,
Darby
But I commend to you Phoebe, our sister, who is minister of the assembly which is in Cenchrea;
1899 Douay-Rheims Bible
And I commend to you Phebe, our sister, who is in the ministry of the church, that is in Cenchrae:
Since you mentioned the ESV, I thought I'd look at verse one in a few others.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 4:00:24 PM
|
|
|
Qtman
Posts: 6323
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
Status: offline
|
Here it is in Greek. JFYI
Never mind. Technical difficulties. It looks right when I copy and paste but when I submit the post it turns to gibberish.
BTW the word Prostatis has several meanings in english amoung them are nurturer, patron, protector and sponsor.
< Message edited by Qtman -- 6/18/2009 4:09:09 PM >
_____________________________
At one time Jesus was my co-pilot. Things are much better now that He and I have changed seats.
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 4:01:41 PM
|
|
|
Qtman
Posts: 6323
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
Status: offline
|
Well that did not work very well. Let me try again.
_____________________________
At one time Jesus was my co-pilot. Things are much better now that He and I have changed seats.
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 4:05:18 PM
|
|
|
Bro_Shane
Posts: 1614
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
quote:
Another question to ask would be why, if this was only dealing with one church and was not meant to be instruction to the church in the future, is it cannon? Paul had other letters to Corinth that we do not have and were not scripture as the others were.
Well, look at when the Bible was canonized.
Women were looked at as property and as NOT having a mind to be able to grasp the things of God.
Then why do we not see anything speaking to this as concerning women holding office? Jesus Himself spoke to women in a way unlike the men of the time. Jesus told several men not to reveal who He was, but told a Samaritan woman directly who and what He was, and she went and told everyone. Yet there is nothing there of the sort.
Also scripture was scripture before it was recognized by men in the form we have now. God's message is bound neither by time nor the ability of people to understand it. Yet, again, we have no clear teaching or instruction on the issue.
quote:
Also, the offices are gifts of God, not of men. They are gifts for the perfecting of the saints. Women are included in this, right.
The offices are not gifts. Gifts are given as the Spirit sees fit, and they do aid inthe administration of those offices, but they are not the same.
quote:
So, tell me, what is the difference in women ministering their gifts on the street than in a gathering?
None. We are called to spread the gospel.
And spreading the gospel is something all believers should do. But the purpose of a gathering of believers is not to spread the gospel. It is for the edification of the saints. This is why the church is doing such a poor job today. They have forgotten that evangelism happens outside the building, strengthening and teaching the saints happens within the building.
If you look at the offices as outlined in scripture, their duties go beyond just spreading the gospel.
quote:
AND orderly worship is the time frame in which things happen and when NOT who administers them.
Actually, it is both.
quote:
So again, why is it okay for a woman to preach on the street BUT not in a gathering of Christian people?
Because one is proclaiming the gospel message, the other is didactic teaching.
quote:
Why is it okay for her to prophecy on the street but not in a gathering of Christians?
I have never said women can't prophecy in a gathering of Christians. They can't engage in didactic teaching during the assembly, but there is no scriptural requirement that they not exercise their gifts when didactic instruction is not taking place.
quote:
Why is it okay for a woman to utilize any gift of the offices on the street but not in a gathering of Christians?
Because the offices are not gifts. They are not the same thing.
quote:
A woman who has been given a gift as this is to glorify God anyway, not man
And I pray they do. I also pray they do it in the manner God has laid out in scripture.
quote:
And is it a man performing these offices when he does them or is it Christ in him that does these?
If I understand your question correctly, it is both.
quote:
He clearly considers them as equals.
So the debate for me is what exactly is Paul really saying in 1 timothy 2?
Yes he considered them equals, as do I. But the issue here is not our idea of equality or fairness. God, in His infinite wisdom, has laid out how He wants things to go in an assembly of believers, who can and can not lead such an assembly (which includes a large number of men), and in what spirit it should be done.
_____________________________
<---- Respect the turtle neck
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 4:08:56 PM
|
|
|
stephanos
Posts: 786
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
Status: offline
|
FYI...I said that the ESV got prostatis in vs 2 correct. I said nothing about ESV and vs 1.
As for your selection of "translations" I see you chose some...interesting translations...
ALT...Made by a man (note the singular), who according to his own website, never finished his masters degree in philosophy or religion. Compare this to the ESV which has DOZENS of linguistic scholars who worked on the translation, ALL with ADVANCED degrees in Theology, Religion, and Biblical Languages.
Bishops...A bible made in partisan response to the Geneva Bible.
Darby...Again a singular man making a translation...Oh let us not forget Darby is the one who gave us dispensationalism (not trying to attack our resident dispies), and was a little bias when it came to women in the ministry..
1899 Douay-Rheims Bible...Was translated not from Greek and Hebrew...but Latin. Not saying the Latin Vulgate is not a valuable resource...but by itself it is VERY unreliable.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 4:09:54 PM
|
|
|
Bro_Shane
Posts: 1614
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
Even if Paul said "this is me" it doesn't mean it is not authoritative to us.
Nor, does it mean that it is authoritative to us. There are many places in Scripture where a command was given to a specific person at a specific time and that command only applied to them (not everyone who read it). For example, Naaman was commanded by Elisha to dip himself in the Jordon seven times to be cured of leprosy; however, that doesn't mean that every leper who reads this passage is commanded to go and dip themselves in the Jordon. It is a huge interpretive mistake to look at every command given in Scripture as if it were directed equally towards us as it was to the original recipients of that command. While I do think it is a huge mistake to look at passages like 1st Corrinthians 7:12 and conclude these are Paul's words rather than God's, it is not a mistake to be aware of the limited scope that Paul placed on these words and realize that they may be addressed to a specific set of people and generally towards all.
As someone I have the utmost respect for please explain this. Paul himself said it was him and not the Lord. What did he mean by this? BTW I have not taken the time to labor over the Greek to make sure this is a good translation. Maybe tonight.
Paul is making the difference between things clearly spoken of by the Lord either in His incarnation or in scripture already written. When he says he is speaking, he is not referring to teaching that has come before - it is something in an area that has not been given instruction. But if we accept that scripture is inspired then we have to see that Paul is writing what God wants written.
To try to separate Paul's own ideas from the scripture he was writing would be to begin to unravel all of the New Testament much like trying to separate a single thread of yarn from the sweater will begin to unravel the sweater.
_____________________________
<---- Respect the turtle neck
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 4:15:04 PM
|
|
|
stephanos
Posts: 786
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
Status: offline
|
quote:
BTW the word Prostatis has several meanings in english amoung them are nurturer, patron, protector and sponsor
The problem is, prostatis has only one definitional concept in the greek language during that time. It was used exclusively in contemporary writings to denote someone who was a "patron" or "benefactor", ie someone who financially supported another. Biased translators with ulterior motives can say it means whatever they want, but that does not make it so.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 4:15:38 PM
|
|
|
sirwintery
Posts: 2505
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: stephanos
FYI...I said that the ESV got prostatis in vs 2 correct. I said nothing about ESV and vs 1.
As for your selection of "translations" I see you chose some...interesting translations...
ALT...Made by a man (note the singular), who according to his own website, never finished his masters degree in philosophy or religion. Compare this to the ESV which has DOZENS of linguistic scholars who worked on the translation, ALL with ADVANCED degrees in Theology, Religion, and Biblical Languages.
Bishops...A bible made in partisan response to the Geneva Bible.
Darby...Again a singular man making a translation...Oh let us not forget Darby is the one who gave us dispensationalism (not trying to attack our resident dispies), and was a little bias when it came to women in the ministry..
1899 Douay-Rheims Bible...Was translated not from Greek and Hebrew...but Latin. Not saying the Latin Vulgate is not a valuable resource...but by itself it is VERY unreliable.
Yeah, and they also all see Phebe in ministry of some kind.
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
