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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 4:22:05 PM
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stephanos
Posts: 786
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From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SirWintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: stephanos
FYI...I said that the ESV got prostatis in vs 2 correct. I said nothing about ESV and vs 1.
As for your selection of "translations" I see you chose some...interesting translations...
ALT...Made by a man (note the singular), who according to his own website, never finished his masters degree in philosophy or religion. Compare this to the ESV which has DOZENS of linguistic scholars who worked on the translation, ALL with ADVANCED degrees in Theology, Religion, and Biblical Languages.
Bishops...A bible made in partisan response to the Geneva Bible.
Darby...Again a singular man making a translation...Oh let us not forget Darby is the one who gave us dispensationalism (not trying to attack our resident dispies), and was a little bias when it came to women in the ministry..
1899 Douay-Rheims Bible...Was translated not from Greek and Hebrew...but Latin. Not saying the Latin Vulgate is not a valuable resource...but by itself it is VERY unreliable.
Yeah, and they also all see Phebe in ministry of some kind.
Using the translations you gave as authoritiative interpretations of scripture, is like going to an auto mechanic for a appendectomy.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 4:23:59 PM
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sirwintery
Posts: 2512
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stephanos
quote:
ORIGINAL: SirWintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: stephanos
FYI...I said that the ESV got prostatis in vs 2 correct. I said nothing about ESV and vs 1.
As for your selection of "translations" I see you chose some...interesting translations...
ALT...Made by a man (note the singular), who according to his own website, never finished his masters degree in philosophy or religion. Compare this to the ESV which has DOZENS of linguistic scholars who worked on the translation, ALL with ADVANCED degrees in Theology, Religion, and Biblical Languages.
Bishops...A bible made in partisan response to the Geneva Bible.
Darby...Again a singular man making a translation...Oh let us not forget Darby is the one who gave us dispensationalism (not trying to attack our resident dispies), and was a little bias when it came to women in the ministry..
1899 Douay-Rheims Bible...Was translated not from Greek and Hebrew...but Latin. Not saying the Latin Vulgate is not a valuable resource...but by itself it is VERY unreliable.
Yeah, and they also all see Phebe in ministry of some kind.
Using the translations you gave as authoritiative interpretations of scripture, is like going to an auto mechanic for a appendectomy.
Hey, that's pretty funny. :)
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 6:43:36 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 6324
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From: Crimson Tide Country
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At least wintery saw it as a humorous statement. Did you overlook the smiley?
Oh! and by the way it was you half my age that accused me of heresy. Remember. Well I certainly do. And for your information I have backed up every post I have made. The fact that you do not accept it does not negate that.
_____________________________
At one time Jesus was my co-pilot. Things are much better now that He and I have changed seats.
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 7:29:19 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 6324
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From: Crimson Tide Country
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The below quote is what I responded to and was accused of heresy.
quote:
Every single letter, every word, ever sentence, in the bible is God's Word! There ARE NO EXCEPTIONS.
Below are some direct quotes from the Bible.
Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, 4and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. 5Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. 6And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.
7To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints:
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes,
2To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:
3Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,
To the church of God in Corinth, together with all the saints throughout Achaia:
2Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— 2and all the brothers with me,
To the churches in Galatia:
3Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus,
To all the saints in Christ Jesus at Philippi, together with the overseers[a] and deacons:
2Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,
2To the holy and faithful brothers in Christ at Colosse:
Grace and peace to you from God our Father.
1Paul, Silas and Timothy,
To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
Grace and peace to you.
1Paul, Silas and Timothy,
To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
2Grace and peace to you from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope,
2To Timothy my true son in the faith:
Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, according to the promise of life that is in Christ Jesus,
2To Timothy, my dear son:
Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
1Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God's elect and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness— 2a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, 3and at his appointed season he brought his word to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior,
4To Titus, my true son in our common faith:
Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.
The above quote are noting more than Paul’s greetings to the various churches and people he wrote to. Paul had no idea he was writing what we call scripture. He was writing advisory letters to churches and fellow workers for the Lord. Can anyone honestly say that Paul’s greetings in these letters were divinely inspired. I seriously doubt they were.
Now if someone wants to argue the Bible as a whole and in general is the Inspired Word Of God you will get no argument from me. But don’t tell me that every word in the book we call the Bible is the inspired infallible word of God when it is obvious it is not. Paul’s greetings are a prime example. The subject of Paul’s letters is another matter. I accept they are the inspired word of God unless Paul specifically says they are not as he did in Corinthians. I have never argued that what Paul said was not his convictions. I am sure they were. But as has been discussed in other threads we all do not have the same convictions. It does not make what Paul said wrong but it also does not make it a command.
_____________________________
At one time Jesus was my co-pilot. Things are much better now that He and I have changed seats.
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 7:57:03 PM
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myka
Posts: 981
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quote:
Paul had no idea he was writing what we call scripture. He was writing advisory letters to churches and fellow workers for the Lord. Can anyone honestly say that Paul’s greetings in these letters were divinely inspired. I seriously doubt they were.
I don't think that one has to have awareness of 'inspiration' in order to be 'inspired'. The greetings give the readers the context of the letters (which is helpful to our understanding).
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 7:58:36 PM
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stephanos
Posts: 786
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From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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It is ridiculous to hold to a long held orthodox view that ALL SCRIPTURE is the Word of God, every single letter, word and sentence? That scripture in its entirety is inspired directly by our Lord God? If that is ridiculous, count me happy to be so.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 8:00:22 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1614
Joined: 8/4/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
The above quote are noting more than Paul’s greetings to the various churches and people he wrote to. Paul had no idea he was writing what we call scripture. He was writing advisory letters to churches and fellow workers for the Lord. Can anyone honestly say that Paul’s greetings in these letters were divinely inspired.
Yes, they were inspired. Do you have any evidence, textual or otherwise that they were not?
quote:
I seriously doubt they were.
Just because you doubt they were doesn't mean they aren't. You have to have some basis for your belief.
quote:
Now if someone wants to argue the Bible as a whole and in general is the Inspired Word Of God you will get no argument from me. But don’t tell me that every word in the book we call the Bible is the inspired infallible word of God when it is obvious it is not
Then your proof, please.
quote:
I accept they are the inspired word of God unless Paul specifically says they are not as he did in Corinthians.
He did not say that. This has been explained.
quote:
I have never argued that what Paul said was not his convictions. I am sure they were. But as has been discussed in other threads we all do not have the same convictions. It does not make what Paul said wrong but it also does not make it a command.
So, what other parts of scripture are not commands, but the convictions of the author? How do we establish this? How do we know which parts we can ignore? Where in scripture is our guidance on this?
II Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
The word translated "all" in verse 16 is pas, and means each, every, and all.
_____________________________
<---- Respect the turtle neck
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 8:00:33 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 6324
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
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quote:
ORIGINAL: myka
quote:
Paul had no idea he was writing what we call scripture. He was writing advisory letters to churches and fellow workers for the Lord. Can anyone honestly say that Paul’s greetings in these letters were divinely inspired. I seriously doubt they were.
I don't think that one has to have awareness of 'inspiration' in order to be 'inspired'. The greetings give the readers the context of the letters (which is helpful to our understanding).
Actually all they do is introduce the writer, who is being written to and praying grace and peace on the recipient. Those things are in no way the Word of God. I did not say what followed these introductions were not inspired just the introductions.
This is in response to stephanos' statement that every letter, every word was from God No Exceptions. I guess he also includes the Chapter numbers and the verse numbers as well.
_____________________________
At one time Jesus was my co-pilot. Things are much better now that He and I have changed seats.
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 8:03:57 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1614
Joined: 8/4/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
quote:
ORIGINAL: myka
quote:
Paul had no idea he was writing what we call scripture. He was writing advisory letters to churches and fellow workers for the Lord. Can anyone honestly say that Paul’s greetings in these letters were divinely inspired. I seriously doubt they were.
I don't think that one has to have awareness of 'inspiration' in order to be 'inspired'. The greetings give the readers the context of the letters (which is helpful to our understanding).
Actually all they do is introduce the writer, who is being written to and praying grace and peace on the recipient. Those things are in no way the Word of God. I did not say what followed these introductions were not inspired just the introductions.
This is in response to stephanos' statement that every letter, every word was from God No Exceptions. I guess he also includes the Chapter numbers and the verse numbers as well.
Your proof for this, please. You keep saying this yet you have not given one shred of evidence for it.
_____________________________
<---- Respect the turtle neck
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 8:04:29 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 6324
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From: Crimson Tide Country
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COme on Bro-Shane. You are one of those on here who has my respect. You honestly believe "hi I'm Paul, greetings and blessings to you" is the Word of God?"
I would think proof for that would not be required. Can you prove it was the word of God. God had Paul write something similiar to that in every letter he wrote. Again, I am not arguing that the subject of Paul's letters was not inspired. But I just can't accept the greetings as being the word of God.
_____________________________
At one time Jesus was my co-pilot. Things are much better now that He and I have changed seats.
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 8:06:06 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 6324
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
quote:
ORIGINAL: myka
quote:
Paul had no idea he was writing what we call scripture. He was writing advisory letters to churches and fellow workers for the Lord. Can anyone honestly say that Paul’s greetings in these letters were divinely inspired. I seriously doubt they were.
I don't think that one has to have awareness of 'inspiration' in order to be 'inspired'. The greetings give the readers the context of the letters (which is helpful to our understanding).
Actually all they do is introduce the writer, who is being written to and praying grace and peace on the recipient. Those things are in no way the Word of God. I did not say what followed these introductions were not inspired just the introductions.
This is in response to stephanos' statement that every letter, every word was from God No Exceptions. I guess he also includes the Chapter numbers and the verse numbers as well.
Your proof for this, please. You keep saying this yet you have not given one shred of evidence for it.
I repeat there is no evidence. Non should be required. I just do not believe God would inspire Paul to write that at the beginning of every letter he wrote.
_____________________________
At one time Jesus was my co-pilot. Things are much better now that He and I have changed seats.
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 8:11:14 PM
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stephanos
Posts: 786
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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Seeing as our modern divisions of chapters were not used until the 13th century, and verses until the 16th...Oh wait...Someone like me is not suppose to know historical facts like that. Or that, your view of non-inspiration of scripture has always been in the minority through out both Christian and Jewish history. And for most of that history, it has been correctly labled as heresy. Of course people view the method of inspiration differently (plenary verbal, didactic, Illumination, dynamic), but all agree that the bible IS in its ENTIRETY the Word of God.
Only in the past few hundred years, since the enlightenment where man has traded God for the flesh, has views on this changed. It has changed because people like you wish not to be bound by the Word of God anymore. You wish to have the plesantries of having a "God" above you, and a rough moral guidline. But when you come across something in scripture you dont like, like the idea that women should not be elders, you reject that that is the word of God. Different interpretations of Scripture is one thing. Saying that the bible is not entirely the word of God is something quite different indeed!
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 8:20:00 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 6324
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From: Crimson Tide Country
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sephanos that post just convinced me you are not reading my post. I have said at least twice I did not believe women could be elders. In case you are having trouble reading it I will type it in big and slow.
I -- D O -- N O T -- B E L I E V E -- W O M E N -- C A N -- B E -- E L D E R S.
is that better?
Now sir if you accuse me one more time of heresy, call me a heretic or anything similiar I will hit the report button. I am sick and tired of hearing that garbage from you. Everyone on here is entitlled to their opinion. But when I state mine all I get is accusations and damnation. Enough is enough. Be warned. Stop it right now.
_____________________________
At one time Jesus was my co-pilot. Things are much better now that He and I have changed seats.
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 8:24:37 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 6324
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
Status: offline
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Before I lose the respect I have for some on here I think it best I just keep my beliefs and opinions to my self.
_____________________________
At one time Jesus was my co-pilot. Things are much better now that He and I have changed seats.
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 8:29:44 PM
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stephanos
Posts: 786
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
sephanos that post just convinced me you are not reading my post. I have said at least twice I did not believe women could be elders. In case you are having trouble reading it I will type it in big and slow.
I -- D O -- N O T -- B E L I E V E -- W O M E N -- C A N -- B E -- E L D E R S.
is that better?
Now sir if you accuse me one more time of heresy, call me a heretic or anything similiar I will hit the report button. I am sick and tired of hearing that garbage from you. Everyone on here is entitlled to their opinion. But when I state mine all I get is accusations and damnation. Enough is enough. Be warned. Stop it right now.
you sure you want to do that?
quote:
15. You will not promote by repeated statements, by provision of URLs to other Web sites, by recommendation to engage in non-community activities such as watching programs, reading books, or attending events, or by any other means, beliefs or teachings contrary to those of Christianity as articulated by the historic creeds, as understood by Evangelicalism, and as interpreted by Salem Web Network in its sole discretion.
While I admit I dont know how Fritz and the other mods might decide...Seeing as by both the Historic Creeds and by Evangelicalism, ALL scripture is views as inspired and the very word of God, and that to reject that is heretical. Yea...Try the report button. I am merely defending scripture as Scripture calls itself. As people like Ambrose, Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Edwards, Spurgeon, and hundreds of others have done over the course of Christian History.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 8:37:21 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 6324
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
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You are doing the same thing you are condeming me for. Stating your opinion and beliefs. However, if you are calling my bluff I am willing to put it in Fritz's capable hands. So lets see.
_____________________________
At one time Jesus was my co-pilot. Things are much better now that He and I have changed seats.
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 8:58:21 PM
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GodsGiddyGirl
Posts: 107
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
<snip>... I think it best I just keep my beliefs and opinions to my self.
I'm glad you shared them. Thanks.
...................................................
According to the Word, every born-again Christian has been given the mind of Christ, is a “son of God” and “joint heir with Christ Jesus.”
We are witnessing God’s women being restored to their rightful position in the Kingdom. And it brings great joy to see this work of God, to be able to say to my children, “You see that woman preaching? That is something I had never even heard of when I was your age!”
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 10:31:26 PM
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Saved34
Posts: 320
Joined: 1/5/2006
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QT, when Paul says Grace and peace from God the father and our Lord Jesus Christ, he really means it. That is God's attitude towards the believer in Christ. These words are inspired by the Holy Spirit. That's not some little ritualistic greeting, that is God's divine greeting through his Apostle. (One who has actually seen and talked with the Lord Jesus). Treating scripture like that is really wierd. What are your grounds for interpreting scripture in such a way,brother?
_____________________________
"It is vain to speak of approaching judgment when finding our place, our portion, and our enjoyment in the very scene which is to be judged." - C.H. Mackintosh
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 10:32:32 PM
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myka
Posts: 981
Status: offline
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quote:
Actually all they do is introduce the writer, who is being written to and praying grace and peace on the recipient. Those things are in no way the Word of God. I did not say what followed these introductions were not inspired just the introductions.
Why do you think that the introductions are not inspired? Because they are the 'same' formula? Because they are 'introductions' and not 'important'? What are your criteria for determining whether a section of the Bible is the "Word of God"? Are there other books that are the "Word of God" that are not included in the canon?
There are people who hold a conservative view of Scripture (that it is inspired in its original language in its entirety) who also think that women are allowed to hold any office in the Church.
ETA: In the FAQ section, there is a thread--it is at the end-- describing the Range of Doctrines that are acceptable on the forums (including the view of Scripture). I would strongly suggest reviewing those...
< Message edited by myka -- 6/18/2009 10:43:49 PM >
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 10:41:44 PM
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Saved34
Posts: 320
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
I hate to disappoint some of you Men Only people but gmspice has a good point. Someone said they would listen if someone could show them scripture that said a woman could teach etc. Well I will also listen if someone can show me where it says they can't. That is some place other than Paul's letter to Timothy.
You see paul was writing to a particular situation. gmspice is correct. Pagan gods was being introduced into the church and they were using some of the women to do this. Paul's instructions regarding woman being silent in church and even his instructions as to the qualifications of a deacon were addressed to this particular situation.
Does it not strike anyone as odd that Paul did not so instruct any of the other churches in a like manner. Why if this was a universal instruction did he not give the same instructions to all the churches. Yet he only gave those instructions in a letter to Timothy. The reason, if you are scratching your head, is because the other churches did not have this problem.
If you are as familiar with scripture as some of you would have us believe then you know that throughout the Bible women have held the position of deaconess, Judge, Teacher, co-founder of churches, etc. One of them even received praise from Paul himself.
And if you read Paul's writings you will find that he said "I do not allow". Paul often did this to differentiate between what he said and what God said.
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church" 1Corinthians 14:33-35
He said let your women keep silent in the CHURCHES. plural. Notice verse 33, he begins by talking about ALL the churches, not just one church or one incident. You have absolutely no authority to isolate and interpret scripture in that manner, brother QT.
_____________________________
"It is vain to speak of approaching judgment when finding our place, our portion, and our enjoyment in the very scene which is to be judged." - C.H. Mackintosh
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 10:54:58 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1614
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GodsGiddyGirl
quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
<snip>... I think it best I just keep my beliefs and opinions to my self.
I'm glad you shared them. Thanks.
...................................................
According to the Word, every born-again Christian has been given the mind of Christ, is a “son of God” and “joint heir with Christ Jesus.”
We are witnessing God’s women being restored to their rightful position in the Kingdom. And it brings great joy to see this work of God, to be able to say to my children, “You see that woman preaching? That is something I had never even heard of when I was your age!”
It is statements like these that do not help the discussion at hand. For example:
quote:
We are witnessing God’s women being restored to their rightful position in the Kingdom
Please show me one place in scripture where women held an office in the church, where there was one female bishop or deacon. There are none.
This is nothing more than quasi-biblical language meant to give authority to an otherwise nonsense statement by the association of the similarity to actual biblical language.
The issue here is not salvation, it is who meets the scriptural qualifications for holding office in a church. This excludes women and the majority of men. It is not a popularity contest, and it is not a bid for control or to keep anyone suppressed.
_____________________________
<---- Respect the turtle neck
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2009 11:06:46 PM
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rawr.ben
Posts: 2746
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: online
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Thank you, Bro Shane, for continuing to post clear, coherent, and Biblically sound responses, when some of us get tongue-tied and ramble a bit.
_____________________________
rawr.ben
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