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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/14/2009 11:02:27 AM
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StephK
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From: Southwest Louisiana
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Okay, there was a thread started in the Current Events folder about Jimmy Carter leaving the SBC due to "cruelty to women". It was locked before I could respond to Jimmy's latest reason he left the SBC 16 years ago.
quote:
Past President Carter has left the Baptist over what he feels is 'traditional' and 'cultural' views of women.
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"Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status ..." (Article 2, Universal Declaration of Human Rights)
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)
I have been a practising Christian all my life and a deacon and Bible teacher for many years. My faith is a source of strength and comfort to me, as religious beliefs are to hundreds of millions of people around the world.
So my decision to sever my ties with the Southern Baptist Convention, after six decades, was painful and difficult. It was, however, an unavoidable decision when th e convention's leaders, quoting a few carefully selected Bible verses and claiming that Eve was created second to Adam and was responsible for original sin, ordained that women must be "subservient" to their husbands and prohibited from serving as deacons, pastors or chaplains in the military service. This was in conflict with my belief - confirmed in the holy scriptures - that we are all equal in the eyes of God.
This view that women are somehow inferior to men is not restricted to one religion or belief. It is widespread. Women are prevented from playing a full and equal role in many faiths.
I had a long response typed out last night to refute his reasons he left but it was locked. I just have to say that he is lying. He originally left the SBC to join with the liberal faction that started up in 1993 where he publicly stated he was leaving the SBC.
He then wrote a whiney letter in 2000 and sent it out to a whole lot of people about his leaving the SBC. Then he wrote a book in 2005 where he whined about leaving the SBC.
Here's my response to Jimmy, since you are no longer a member of the SBC it is well past time to move on already. You know it's time to get rid of that bitter root. 
I'm a lifelong southern baptist woman by the way. 
< Message edited by StephK -- 7/14/2009 11:09:51 AM >
_____________________________
Stephanie
Envy is always referred to by its political alias, "social justice."
~ Thomas Sowell
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2009 1:12:50 PM
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GodsGiddyGirl
Posts: 107
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
<snip>
Perhaps he'll be less likely to be a cause of dissension in his new home.
Dissension? I see it as courage.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2009 1:15:43 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1614
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GodsGiddyGirl
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
<snip>
Perhaps he'll be less likely to be a cause of dissension in his new home.
Dissension? I see it as courage.
Courage against what?
_____________________________
<---- Respect the turtle neck
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2009 1:39:26 PM
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GodsGiddyGirl
Posts: 107
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
Courage against what?
Courage for following their conviction.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2009 1:44:49 PM
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GodsGiddyGirl
Posts: 107
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It’s sad that so many letters have condemned them for failing to "properly" understand scripture. Some, so it seems, labeling it as,
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
corrupt doctrine.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2009 4:12:07 PM
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Bro_Shane
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GodsGiddyGirl
It’s sad that so many letters have condemned them for failing to "properly" understand scripture. Some, so it seems, labeling it as,
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
corrupt doctrine.
And their conviction was what? Do you know exactly? Or do you just know he left? Have you tried to look at both sides in this, or did you pick sides based on your perception of the situation where, perhaps, your own bias has colored that perception?
I also notice you did not answer my question.
_____________________________
<---- Respect the turtle neck
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2009 5:36:31 PM
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GodsGiddyGirl
Posts: 107
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
And their conviction was what? Do you know exactly? Or do you just know he left? Have you tried to look at both sides in this, or did you pick sides based on your perception of the situation where, perhaps, your own bias has colored that perception?
I also notice you did not answer my question.
Have you, Bro_Shane, tried to look at both sides of this? Could it be your own bias has colored your perception?
By the way, I did answer your question.
Back to what you said.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
Good riddance to him and his corrupt doctrine
So ... if you disagree with the fundamentalist leadership (For Carter in part it was a denominational statement adopted that prohibits women from being pastors) you are not a fellow believer with a difference of opinion? It’s a “good riddance to him and his corrupt doctrine”?
That’s sad.
How can we really love our neighbor, when we can’t even love our brother, Bro_Shane?
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/20/2009 6:02:02 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1614
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You said you saw his decision as courage, I asked against what. You said the courage to follow his convictions. That did not answer the question.
Secondly, the man's doctrine is corrupt. To say that is not being unloving, it's being truthful.
Thirdly, Carter was intent on pushing his ideas on the rest of the SBC, which did not agree with him. He threatened the SBC thinking the loss of him and his followers would be too scary and that the SBC would never risk that. He was wrong. Oh yeah, most of the SBC are not Fundamentalists. I am a Fundamentalist, a SBC pator, and happen to be in a better position than you to know these things.
Fourth, you have mentioned part of one of the reasons he gave for leaving but have yet to comment on any other, which you have been invited to do.
Lastly, I find it humorous that the default argument for those who can't formulate a coherent argument is always some variation of love. Your pseudo-biblical admonishment is duly noted.
_____________________________
<---- Respect the turtle neck
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2009 7:36:07 AM
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gmcspice
Posts: 656
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Bro_Shane,
May I ask HOW Carter's doctrine is corrupt?
_____________________________
To have friends, you have to be a friend!
gmcspice4GOD
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2009 7:56:40 AM
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StephK
Posts: 2780
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GodsGiddyGirl
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
Courage against what?
Courage for following their conviction.
If he truly left because he was following his convictions he wouldn't be sending out letters to 75,000 pastors and leaders, writing books, and making up lies to fit the current politics stating why he "left" over 16 years ago. He originally left the denomination when the liberal faction of the SBC split to start up their own denomination in 1993.
_____________________________
Stephanie
Envy is always referred to by its political alias, "social justice."
~ Thomas Sowell
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2009 8:01:30 AM
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StephK
Posts: 2780
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
Bro_Shane,
May I ask HOW Carter's doctrine is corrupt?
Jimmy Carter Revises the Gospel . . . Again
_____________________________
Stephanie
Envy is always referred to by its political alias, "social justice."
~ Thomas Sowell
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2009 10:34:46 AM
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gmcspice
Posts: 656
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Thank you Bro_Shane.
I strongly disagree with the fact That He thinks people will be saved without confessing their sins and accepting Christ. That is not biblical.
I do have a question - Are the ones who profess Christ as savior and ask for forgiveness when on their death bed in heaven Right now? Even though they didn't live a Godly life, they still repented on their death bed.
What do you think
< Message edited by gmcspice -- 7/21/2009 12:42:59 PM >
_____________________________
To have friends, you have to be a friend!
gmcspice4GOD
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2009 10:43:19 AM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1614
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
Thank you Bro_Shane.
I strongly disagree with the fact That He thinks people will be saved without confessing their sins and accepting Christ. That is not biblical.
I do have a question - Are the ones who profess Christ as savior and ask for forgiveness in heaven Right now? Even though they didn't live a Godly life, they still repented.
What do you think
Those that believe that Jesus Christ is God's only Son, that He paid the price for our sin on the cross, and repent are those that will be in Heaven.
The new birth should be manifest by a change in behavior. Unfortunately, some children tend to be rebellious. I was rebellious for many years. But we are not saved from our bad acts. We are saved from our sin (singular), our corrupt nature we are born into. That's why scripture refers to us as being born again rather than simply being made better than before.
This is also why the judicial judgment of the soul is best left to God while we are given the freedom to make qualitative judgments on behavior. God will either reward or punish; we are to lovingly pray for, admonish, rebuke, edify, and witness based on the actions of others because we know no amount of "good living" will get you into Heaven.
_____________________________
<---- Respect the turtle neck
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2009 12:27:46 PM
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myka
Posts: 982
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Context...
The recent articles are about a group of world leaders who are taking a stand against the mistreatment of women especially by religious communities. Bad journalism makes it about Carter's leaving the SBC .
quote:
He originally left the denomination when the liberal faction of the SBC split to start up their own denomination in 1993.
That liberal faction left over the issue of ordination of women specifically. He is not changing his rationale; it is pertinent to the new group's focus. He did not leave because the SBC was not 'fawning' over him; he left because his theological understanding of the issues was in line with the 'liberal faction'.
Regarding Salvation Carter states:
quote:
So, the opportunity for everyone to be saved through the grace of God with faith in Christ applies to everyone.
Carter has written about his own beliefs in Christianity. I would like to know what this 'corrupt doctrine' is that he has... (I'm assuming that it is something other than ordination of women)
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2009 12:39:55 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6350
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From: Dothan, AL
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My understanding is that Carter's leaving the SBC is a little disingenuous because he continues attending the same Baptist church he did before he "left" them. Even so, I think his "conviction" stems from his sister, Ruth Carter Stapleton, being an "evangelist" - the same sister who "saved" Larry Flynt the pornographer in the 70s.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2009 12:56:06 PM
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StephK
Posts: 2780
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
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He should be called out for lying if he is still a member of a SBC church while serially writing to anyone who will listen that he's leaving again.
_____________________________
Stephanie
Envy is always referred to by its political alias, "social justice."
~ Thomas Sowell
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2009 1:02:07 PM
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myka
Posts: 982
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He is not saying that he is leaving again. He said he left.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2009 1:06:39 PM
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StephK
Posts: 2780
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
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But he hasn't left so why keep stirring up trouble and strife? If he's unhappy with the denomination and has said he's left then he should quit with the theatrics and fellowship with the CBF where he said he joined back in 1993.
_____________________________
Stephanie
Envy is always referred to by its political alias, "social justice."
~ Thomas Sowell
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2009 1:10:33 PM
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myka
Posts: 982
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He did leave. Many years ago...
He is not stirring up trouble and strife; just stating that he left a denomination because of their views on women.
The SBC denomination is 'special' in the sense that one can be a part of an individual church without subscribing to the tenants of the larger denomination.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2009 1:58:14 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6350
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: myka
He did leave. Many years ago...
He is not stirring up trouble and strife; just stating that he left a denomination because of their views on women.
The SBC denomination is 'special' in the sense that one can be a part of an individual church without subscribing to the tenants of the larger denomination.
IMO, in any other context at all, that would make no sense. If he's left the SBC, then he needs to go joing a Methodist or other denomination. We'd be happy to be rid of him.
Otherwise, his weekly trip to teach a Sunday School class in a Southern Baptist Church makes him, to any casual observer, a Southern Baptist.
BTW, the only thing I see as "special" in this is the whole Carter family. What a crew that's been.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2009 2:28:00 PM
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myka
Posts: 982
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If Carter is committed to his church congregation, that is a very good thing -- he has been there for a very long time and has a long history with them.
His church is part of the CBF.
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