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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2009 2:45:05 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6357
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From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: myka
The SBC denomination is 'special' in the sense that one can be a part of an individual church without subscribing to the tenants of the larger denomination.
quote:
ORIGINAL: myka
If Carter is committed to his church congregation, that is a very good thing -- he has been there for a very long time and has a long history with them.
His church is part of the CBF.
I'm confused, is he or is he not a member of a Southern Baptist Church?
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2009 3:19:14 PM
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Bro_Shane
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: myka
The SBC denomination is 'special' in the sense that one can be a part of an individual church without subscribing to the tenants of the larger denomination.
quote:
ORIGINAL: myka
If Carter is committed to his church congregation, that is a very good thing -- he has been there for a very long time and has a long history with them.
His church is part of the CBF.
I'm confused, is he or is he not a member of a Southern Baptist Church?
I wonder why a pastor would allow someone who saw fit to mail out thousands of letters saying why he left to continue to teach.
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<---- Respect the turtle neck
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2009 3:59:11 PM
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myka
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quote:
The ordination of women was but one issue there was a split, but it was not the main issue.
Yes, there were other issues, but Carter's main issue for himself was the issue of women.
quote:
I'm confused, is he or is he not a member of a Southern Baptist Church?
Heehee. There are churches that have multiple affiliations within the Baptist denominations. (I'm not sure that it is going to get much clearer than that...) If one assumes that all churches that are affiliated with the SBC hold to the teachings of the SBC, the assumption is incorrect. I am thinking that Carter's church contributes to certain SBC causes and certain CBF causes. I've previously been a member of a church that had dual affiliation, and they did not hold to the SBC teachings.
One of the core values of Baptists is independence of individual congregations, so generally the denomination does not dictate the views of the congregations. Contribution to the denomination is what defines affiliation.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2009 4:11:01 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6357
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: myka
One of the core values of Baptists is independence of individual congregations, so generally the denomination does not dictate the views of the congregations. Contribution to the denomination is what defines affiliation.
True, but I have never heard of any local church contributing both to the SBC and the CBF. And I've been a member of a Southern Baptist church since 1986.
That would be a little like a Union sending contributions to both the DNC and the RNC. I suppose they could do so if they wanted to, it just sounds counterproductive.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2009 6:21:23 PM
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myka
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I have heard of churches that contribute to both organizations. 
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2009 6:42:41 PM
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GodsGiddyGirl
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
You said you saw his decision as courage, I asked against what. You said the courage to follow his convictions. That did not answer the question.
Bro_Shane, I said, in reference to your post, “Dissension? I see it as courage.” You asked, “Courage against what?” I define “courage” as strength in the face of pain and grief. Therefore, I answered your question with “Courage for following their conviction.” I understand you don’t consider that an answer. However, I do. Let me try again. It’s not courage against something, it’s courage, strength, to speak forth their convictions. To convey the very thing, they believe, God revealed to their hearts.
As for your second point, “the man’s doctrine is corrupt,”my point, the “good riddance” attitude seems “corrupt” to me. Could that possibly be a ... pseudo-Christian response?
Third, you wrote, “Carter was intent on pushing his ideas on the rest of the SBC.” Could it be he courageously shared what, he believed, God revealed to him? In addition, perhaps he wanted to minimize the gossip and slander?
Fourth, as for, “you have mentioned part of one of the reasons he gave for leaving but have yet to comment on any other,” I know. I chose the one pertinent for this thread. Wouldn’t you agree?
As for your final comment, quoted below, wondering if that might be another example of a pseudo-Christian statement.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
Lastly, I find it humorous that the default argument for those who can't formulate a coherent argument is always some variation of love. Your pseudo-biblical admonishment is duly noted.
Time for my tennis match. GG.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2009 10:16:23 PM
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Bro_Shane
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GodsGiddyGirl
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
You said you saw his decision as courage, I asked against what. You said the courage to follow his convictions. That did not answer the question.
Bro_Shane, I said, in reference to your post, “Dissension? I see it as courage.” You asked, “Courage against what?” I define “courage” as strength in the face of pain and grief. Therefore, I answered your question with “Courage for following their conviction.” I understand you don’t consider that an answer. However, I do. Let me try again. It’s not courage against something, it’s courage, strength, to speak forth their convictions. To convey the very thing, they believe, God revealed to their hearts.
As for your second point, “the man’s doctrine is corrupt,”my point, the “good riddance” attitude seems “corrupt” to me. Could that possibly be a ... pseudo-Christian response?
Third, you wrote, “Carter was intent on pushing his ideas on the rest of the SBC.” Could it be he courageously shared what, he believed, God revealed to him? In addition, perhaps he wanted to minimize the gossip and slander?
Fourth, as for, “you have mentioned part of one of the reasons he gave for leaving but have yet to comment on any other,” I know. I chose the one pertinent for this thread. Wouldn’t you agree?
As for your final comment, quoted below, wondering if that might be another example of a pseudo-Christian statement.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
Lastly, I find it humorous that the default argument for those who can't formulate a coherent argument is always some variation of love. Your pseudo-biblical admonishment is duly noted.
Time for my tennis match. GG.
I hope you won your match.
The "love" angle is almost always presented in a non-biblical manner by people when they have nothing better to offer which, in my opinion, was what was happening.
The man has stirred and is stirring up much trouble. His stand is far from one based on conviction. He is upset at his lack of control over the SBC. He is upset he can not dictate SBC policy based on his former office. You do not know the whole story.
Suffice it to say that we will not agree on Carter. I doubt we will agree on much in this particular thread. I will admit this subject is one that makes my blood boil (Carter and the SBC, that is) and, again being candid, I don't think I can continue in it and hold my temper in check.
I would rather keep my mouth shut and say nothing than keep discussing something I know I have a good chance of saying something not becoming a child of God and a pastor.
My apology to you if any of my previous comments were short of offensive. I'll leave it at that and give you the last word if you wish it.
_____________________________
<---- Respect the turtle neck
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2009 8:25:40 AM
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TheosCentric
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On another note about dual-affiliation churches, here in SC, we have some AME churches (which ordain women pastors and elders) who are also dual-affiliated with the SBC. How they line up views on the Trinity, I don't know, but I do know that some of them (2 women ordained as elders) caused irreparable harm on a recent missions trip our association sent to W. Africa.
_____________________________
God uses our bad will to accomplish His good will. - R.C. Sproul
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2009 10:24:07 AM
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sirwintery
Posts: 2510
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From: nw alabama
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TheosCentric, this is interesting. Are you able to elaborate on the "irreparable harm" caused by the two women?
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2009 11:25:20 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 2695
Joined: 2/26/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SirWintery
TheosCentric, this is interesting. Are you able to elaborate on the "irreparable harm" caused by the two women?
I can't elaborate, but I can say that these two woman should never have been allowed to go on that trip.
_____________________________
God uses our bad will to accomplish His good will. - R.C. Sproul
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2009 12:00:20 PM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 2695
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: SirWintery
TheosCentric, this is interesting. Are you able to elaborate on the "irreparable harm" caused by the two women?
I can't elaborate, but I can say that these two woman should never have been allowed to go on that trip.
Theo can you answer this?
Would the problem have arisen with these two women even if they were not ordained elders. I ask because I know people that would cause problems if they were ordained angels. 
Let's just say that some of their theology got in the way. Now maybe it was theology of the AME church, or their personal theology, or what, but regardless, they caused problems. I'm not saying that it was because they were ordained elders or what not, but that may be part of the problem in itself, especially with some of the pride they exhibited in their positions. In fact, I have not run across an ordained woman elder that did not take pride in their position.
That's not to say that some male elders/pastors do the same, but I have yet to run across a woman elder/pastor that had a humble spirit.
_____________________________
God uses our bad will to accomplish His good will. - R.C. Sproul
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2009 12:19:49 PM
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gmcspice
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quote:
That's not to say that some male elders/pastors do the same, but I have yet to run across a woman elder/pastor that had a humble spirit.
I have. But like you said, I have see pride in both men and women. I think when considering anyone for it, we must really watch them and what kind of fruit they are bearing for a long while. IF they aren't willing to take a low seat to start with, then they should not be put in a high seat. That goes for men and women and no matter the gift.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2009 9:09:32 PM
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myka
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quote:
In fact, I have not run across an ordained woman elder that did not take pride in their position.
That's not to say that some male elders/pastors do the same, but I have yet to run across a woman elder/pastor that had a humble spirit.
I'm sorry that you haven't run across a woman elder/pastor who had a humble spirit -- that's unfortunate. I know a few.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2009 9:42:51 PM
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myka
Posts: 981
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quote:
I wonder why a pastor would allow someone who saw fit to mail out thousands of letters saying why he left to continue to teach.
He did not mail out thousands of letters himself. Other organizations did that. Honestly, it sounds like there is some lingering bitterness and anger at his decision. I'm very sorry to hear that.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2009 6:38:55 PM
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micharmony
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
That's not to say that some male elders/pastors do the same, but I have yet to run across a woman elder/pastor that had a humble spirit.
TC,
While I can feel your pain at the damage you claim was caused, I think there are a few reasons why your point might be peculiar to the two you are referencing:
1) There's still pain there; have you forgiven these women individually?
2) There are women who have been ordained that exhibit a humble spirit.
3) #2 above makes it somewhat clear that your argument against ordination is on prequalifications, and therefore may be more about the individual's aptitude towards ministry, instead of gender.
Just some things to consider.
_____________________________
Grace,
Michael
Ezk. 34:31
I have a feeling God thinks it rather cute that we all think we understand him completely.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/27/2009 9:26:30 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 2695
Joined: 2/26/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: micharmony
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
That's not to say that some male elders/pastors do the same, but I have yet to run across a woman elder/pastor that had a humble spirit.
TC,
While I can feel your pain at the damage you claim was caused, I think there are a few reasons why your point might be peculiar to the two you are referencing:
1) There's still pain there; have you forgiven these women individually?
2) There are women who have been ordained that exhibit a humble spirit.
3) #2 above makes it somewhat clear that your argument against ordination is on prequalifications, and therefore may be more about the individual's aptitude towards ministry, instead of gender.
Just some things to consider.
Actually, I don't know those two women personally. I only know by the witness of the other 8 people on that particular trip what harm was caused.
As for #2, my experience may be only based on the women coming out of the AME church, which exhibits some false doctrines anyway, namely their disbelief in the Trinity.
On #3, women being ordained as elders and pastors is not Biblical, so your point is moot.
_____________________________
God uses our bad will to accomplish His good will. - R.C. Sproul
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/27/2009 11:24:42 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
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From: California
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quote:
On #3, women being ordained as elders and pastors is not Biblical, so your point is moot.
1) Scripture doesn't state this. Ordination itself is a topic that is not directly addressed in Scripture.
2) Throughout this thread, you have made nothing other than dogmatic assertions about how YOU BELIEVE scripture MUST be interpreted on this issue without providing any evidence to support your interpretation or dealing with the evidence others have provided that raises questions about the legitimacy of YOUR interpretation.
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אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/27/2009 11:36:46 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 2695
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
On #3, women being ordained as elders and pastors is not Biblical, so your point is moot.
1) Scripture doesn't state this. Ordination itself is a topic that is not directly addressed in Scripture.
2) Throughout this thread, you have made nothing other than dogmatic assertions about how YOU BELIEVE scripture MUST be interpreted on this issue without providing any evidence to support your interpretation or dealing with the evidence others have provided that raises questions about the legitimacy of YOUR interpretation.
1) To be ordained is to be set apart, so that is a Biblical idea. In Acts, when they set apart the men for the service of the widows, that was essentially an ordination. When Paul and Barnabas were set apart to go out as missionaries, that was an ordination.
2) The passages in Timothy and Titus are pretty clear. If that's being dogmatic, then so be it. I will not sit under a woman pastor, no matter her qualifications. A woman pastor is in sin, as are those who ordained her.
_____________________________
God uses our bad will to accomplish His good will. - R.C. Sproul
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/27/2009 11:52:00 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
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From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
On #3, women being ordained as elders and pastors is not Biblical, so your point is moot.
1) Scripture doesn't state this. Ordination itself is a topic that is not directly addressed in Scripture.
2) Throughout this thread, you have made nothing other than dogmatic assertions about how YOU BELIEVE scripture MUST be interpreted on this issue without providing any evidence to support your interpretation or dealing with the evidence others have provided that raises questions about the legitimacy of YOUR interpretation.
1) To be ordained is to be set apart, so that is a Biblical idea. In Acts, when they set apart the men for the service of the widows, that was essentially an ordination. When Paul and Barnabas were set apart to go out as missionaries, that was an ordination.
Then why don't we view ordination in the church the same way today? Ordination is no longer viewed as simply being set apart for a particular task, but being given the authority to preach God's word and lead a church. And according to your "biblical" definition of ordination, women were ordained.
quote:
2) The passages in Timothy and Titus are pretty clear. If that's being dogmatic, then so be it. I will not sit under a woman pastor, no matter her qualifications. A woman pastor is in sin, as are those who ordained her.
If the Timothy passage is soooo clear, then why are there such significant differences between different versions? Why do the older versions (like the Vulgate, Tyndale, Geneva, KJV) all treat this passage differently than do most modern versions?
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אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/27/2009 1:52:19 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1614
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
If the Timothy passage is soooo clear, then why are there such significant differences between different versions? Why do the older versions (like the Vulgate, Tyndale, Geneva, KJV) all treat this passage differently than do most modern versions?
Different source texts, different translation styles and, possibly, agendas. The first two are well known, the last is a possibility. I'm not stating the probability, only that it's possible.
I do, however, find it odd that the meaning of those passages only started to become unclear in direct correlation to rise of higher criticism and liberal theologians that question the nature and authority of scripture.
_____________________________
<---- Respect the turtle neck
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/27/2009 2:01:53 PM
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Crushmaster
Posts: 613
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From: The South, In The Good Ol' U.S. of A.
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quote:
benelchi
1) Scripture doesn't state this. Ordination itself is a topic that is not directly addressed in Scripture.
(1 Timothy 3:1-12) - "This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. {2} A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; {3} Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; {4} One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; {5} (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) {6} Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. {7} Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil."
"{8} Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; {9} Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. {10} And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. {11} Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. {12} Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well."
"Bishop" is another word for "Pastor". And "Deacons" basically means "Elders".
(Titus 1:6-9) - "If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. {7} For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; {8} But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; {9} Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers."
(1 Timothy 2:11-14) - "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. {12} But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. {13} For Adam was first formed, then Eve. {14} And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."
(1 Corinthians 14:34) - "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law."
quote:
benelchi
2) Throughout this thread, you have made nothing other than dogmatic assertions about how YOU BELIEVE scripture MUST be interpreted on this issue without providing any evidence to support your interpretation or dealing with the evidence others have provided that raises questions about the legitimacy of YOUR interpretation.
Scripture is clear on this. Very clear. Just look at the passages above.
God bless,
Crushmaster.
_____________________________
http://www.areyouagoodperson.org
(2 Corinthians 5:17) - "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Christ is Lord and King! To Him I give all glory and honor.
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