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ORIGINAL: Crushmaster

quote:

benelchi

1) Scripture doesn't state this. Ordination itself is a topic that is not directly addressed in Scripture.

(1 Timothy 3:1-12) - "This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. {2} A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; {3} Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; {4} One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; {5} (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) {6} Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. {7} Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil."

"{8} Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; {9} Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. {10} And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. {11} Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. {12} Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well."
"Bishop" is another word for "Pastor". And "Deacons" basically means "Elders".

(Titus 1:6-9) - "If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. {7} For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; {8} But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; {9} Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers."

(1 Timothy 2:11-14) - "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. {12} But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. {13} For Adam was first formed, then Eve. {14} And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

(1 Corinthians 14:34) - "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law."

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benelchi
2) Throughout this thread, you have made nothing other than dogmatic assertions about how YOU BELIEVE scripture MUST be interpreted on this issue without providing any evidence to support your interpretation or dealing with the evidence others have provided that raises questions about the legitimacy of YOUR interpretation.

Scripture is clear on this. Very clear. Just look at the passages above.
God bless,
Crushmaster.

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benelchi

So, then do you agree with most biblical scholars that the KJV translation of 1 Timothy 2:11-14 is a more accurate reflection of the Greek text than most of the modern versions?

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ORIGINAL: Crushmaster

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benelchi

So, then do you agree with most biblical scholars that the KJV translation of 1 Timothy 2:11-14 is a more accurate reflection of the Greek text than most of the modern versions?

Sir,
What exactly does that have to do with this?
God bless,
Crushmaster.

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benelchi

Anyone who has bothered to study this passage would understand exactly what this has to do with the issue of women in ministry as it is covered by almost every scholar on every side of this issue. Your questions leads me to believe that you haven't even bothered to study this passage at all before offering your dogmatic opinion about what it says. While I disagree with broshane's opinion of this passage, I respect the fact that he has bothered to study enough to understand the issues around this passage.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crushmaster

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benelchi

Anyone who has bothered to study this passage would understand exactly what this has to do with the issue of women in ministry as it is covered by almost every scholar on every side of this issue. Your questions leads me to believe that you haven't even bothered to study this passage at all before offering your dogmatic opinion about what it says. While I disagree with broshane's opinion of this passage, I respect the fact that he has bothered to study enough to understand the issues around this passage.

I see, sir.

Even if this passage could not be used, that does not matter - there are still an abundance of passages. Furthermore, sir, there's no reason to believe that this passage does not, in fact, give support to my views, as it plainly and obviously does according to the translation. I was quoting from the KJV.

So, please show me how I am in error.
God bless,
Crushmaster.

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi
BTW - similar issues need to be considered for each of the other verses you quoted, for example the passage you quoted that instructed women to keep silent also instructed women (in the part you didn't quote) on the proper procedure for prophacying in public worship. Your interpretation makes reconsiling these instructions nearly impossible.

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ORIGINAL: TheosCentric

So, if Paul does not allow something, we must allow that God may allow it? So, Paul's letters included in the Bible are not fallible, making the Word of God fallible?

Sorry, but what a load of dog doo doo.

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ORIGINAL:hurricanetj2009

The first reason why women cannot be ordained biblically as pastors is due to the fact that God himself ordained the priesthood which started with moses' brother aaron, and looking at that priesthood after Jesus came and fulfilled the law the followers of the way also called Christians, winding their way through history eventually began to refer to the priest as reverend or pastor especially within the protestant reformation.

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ORIGINAL: Qtman

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ORIGINAL: TheosCentric

So, if Paul does not allow something, we must allow that God may allow it? So, Paul's letters included in the Bible are not fallible, making the Word of God fallible?

Sorry, but what a load of dog doo doo.

I could say that about so many posts on the forums. But I haven't because it would have been uncalled for just as it was uncalled for here.

So show me in scripture where is says.....

God forbid the ordination of women.

Where such ordination is a sin.

Unless you can do that, then as I suspect, it is a sin because some man declared it a sin. Frankly, knowing your beliefs on man's participation in all things salvic I am surprised you are so dogmatic about something being a sin that is not forbidden and not called a sin in scripture. I have no problem with you not believing in women pastors or elders. Had you said that we would not have anything to talk about. But for you to label it as sin and not only the women but whoever ordained them as sinners seems to me you are stepping into God's shoes. Those shoes my friend you cannot fill.

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Frankly, Benelchi's view of interpreting these passages of scripture is the same view that is used to justify homosexuality in the Bible as well. It leads to not trusting the Word of God. One says that Paul was making a fallible statement. If that is true, then what else in the Bible do we trust? It was all written down by men. That should make it all fallible. Where's the inspiration of the Holy Spirit?

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Did God allow Paul to write his own opinion, but God really meant something else? What's there to rely on?

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benelchi

I recognized that you quoted from the KJV which is why I asked if you accepted the KJV translation as a better representation of the original Greek for this verse as compared to most modern versions like most biblical scholars on all sides of this issue do?

BTW - similar issues need to be considered for each of the other verses you quoted, for example the passage you quoted that instructed women to keep silent also instructed women (in the part you didn't quote) on the proper procedure for prophacying in public worship. Your interpretation makes reconsiling these instructions nearly impossible.

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ORIGINAL: gmcspice

The answer to this question is YES.

1 Corinthians 7: verses 6, verse 12 a

6But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.

12But to the rest speak I, not the Lord

Paul says that God allows him to interject what his opinion on certain things depending on a certain circumstance or issue.

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But this runs into a problem. Paul doesn't make an indication that it is merely his opinion in 1 Timothy 2.

If we went along this standard, we could pretty much take any passage of Scripture and say, "That's just their opinion."
God bless,

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It would only be during a certain part that women would not be allowed to teach or speak, leaving the rest of the service open for prophesying etc.

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ORIGINAL: Crushmaster

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benelchi

I recognized that you quoted from the KJV which is why I asked if you accepted the KJV translation as a better representation of the original Greek for this verse as compared to most modern versions like most biblical scholars on all sides of this issue do?

BTW - similar issues need to be considered for each of the other verses you quoted, for example the passage you quoted that instructed women to keep silent also instructed women (in the part you didn't quote) on the proper procedure for prophacying in public worship. Your interpretation makes reconsiling these instructions nearly impossible.

I honesty cannot give a "yes" or "no" answer to that question, sir, being I do not know Greek. However, I will soon, as I'll be learning Koine Greek in school (well, in several years or so, anyway).

How exactly do you reconcile women pastors with "husband of one wife"?
God bless,
Crushmaster.

quote:

gmcspice

(I was just answering the question in the context that it was asked)

And what if it was Paul's opinion?

If you look at the entire Bible as a whole, God has used women in leadership positions before, right? Yes he has.
So, how do we know Paul wasn't giving his opinion or addressing a specific issue? Maybe he put these boundaries in place because God said, right now, we have his issue going on and the only way to stop it, is to set these specific boundaries. We can't know for sure. One thing we do know for sure is hat God has always used women in mighty ways.
We can't deny that. We can't deny that God gives women the same knowledge from HIM that he gives men.
Paul does seem to contradict on certain issues in the Church. I always say that when it seems to contradict, we are missing a very important thing Paul is trying to tell us.

There is scripture in the bible that says its okay for a woman to do things, then there are those that say they can't. How do we reconcile the two sides?

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benelchi

First of all, the Scripture makes this statement for Elders and Deacons (NOT pastors), and second, many Scholars have noted (and many translations of the bible reflect) the fact that the word translated as "wives" immediately following the qualifications of a male deacon is really just simply the Greek word for "woman" and many accept the idea that this was instructions given by Paul to woman deacons and not "wives" of male deacons. In Greek most of the time a wife is noted by a possessive i.e. his woman, their women, etc.. but in this case there is no such possessive and the translation "woman" is just as likely (if not more likely) than the translation "wives"

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benelchi

I really do hope you do get to study Greek (and maybe even Hebrew). Understanding the issues of translation and the cultural aspects Jewish/Greek societies in the first century (part of any good class on the biblical languages) is in invaluable tool for biblical study and will definitely reap a world of blessings as you study God's word.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crushmaster

quote:

benelchi

First of all, the Scripture makes this statement for Elders and Deacons (NOT pastors), and second, many Scholars have noted (and many translations of the bible reflect) the fact that the word translated as "wives" immediately following the qualifications of a male deacon is really just simply the Greek word for "woman" and many accept the idea that this was instructions given by Paul to woman deacons and not "wives" of male deacons. In Greek most of the time a wife is noted by a possessive i.e. his woman, their women, etc.. but in this case there is no such possessive and the translation "woman" is just as likely (if not more likely) than the translation "wives"

You are wrong on your first point, sir; Bishop is basically Pastor.

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As to your second point, sir, in all honesty, that doesn't add up. Look at the context:
(1 Timothy 3:8-13) - "Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; {9} Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. {10} And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. {11} Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. {12} Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. {13} For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus."

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Ma'am (please correct me if you are not),
Can you please show me examples of these Scriptures that say it's OK for a woman to do things, and then the ones that say she can't?

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ORIGINAL: benelchi

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Frankly, Benelchi's view of interpreting these passages of scripture is the same view that is used to justify homosexuality in the Bible as well. It leads to not trusting the Word of God. One says that Paul was making a fallible statement. If that is true, then what else in the Bible do we trust? It was all written down by men. That should make it all fallible. Where's the inspiration of the Holy Spirit?

My view of interpreting Scripture helps to prevent doctrinal errors because it begins with the strong belief that God's word is inerrant and that doctrine should be based on the real study of the God's inerrant word rather than my own personal and fallible opinion. It my strong belief that the message that the author of a book intended to convey is the one that should direct our doctrinal choices; if our interpretation is not an accurate reflection of the intention of the author then our interpretation is wrong. I have a great deal of respect for others who, out of reverence for God's inerrant word, begin with the hard work of study because such study always provides the boundaries that constrain our doctrines within orthodoxy and within orthodoxy there is room for disagreement about particular doctrines. A belief that Homosexuality is a valid expression of human sexuality will always be outside orthodox belief because such a belief will never be compatible with a belief in the inerrancy of Scripture, and to raise this issue is to do nothing more than raise a "strawman" because you are either unwilling or unable to address the real issues that have been raised that demonstrate serious difficulties with the interpretation you have offered.

Again, while a disagree with Bro_Shane's interpretation, I do recognize that he always studies and always honestly addresses the issues that were raised and I have a lot of respect for that. I obviously don't give the same weight to the evidences that he places weight in, but I do respect the evidences he provides. And for the record because both he and I approach the Scripture with the same reverence for God's word and the same belief that God's word is inerrant, our beliefs are not that far apart. I still see in Scripture a strong call for male leadership in the church (just as he does) and I have a difficult time with the idea that support for woman elders can be found in Scripture; our biggest doctrinal difference is dealing with the details of how woman minister in the church and not about whether the church should be under male leadership. While do understand (and respect) the "biblical egalitarian" position i.e. egalitarianism that is based on an acceptance of the inerrancy of Scripture, I do not agree with that position and find the arguments for that position weak.