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ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

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The Lord is the lover and the people are the beloved

This is an interpretive choice, one that I disagree with. However, since this is the music thread and not the Bible thread, I won't go into the "why"s of my disagreement.

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ORIGINAL: Elena1030

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ORIGINAL: kisstheson

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ORIGINAL: RJR_fan

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The two examples of bridal love for Christ is Mary of Magdala and John the beloved.

So the author of John's Gospel, his three letters, and Revelation was a sodomite with "bridal" affections towards another man? Do you really mean to assert that?

where did I assert that John was a sodomite? don't put words in my mouth. what I said is that God's idea of "romantic" is different then ours. its not tainted by carnal lust. john did have a deep affection for Christ and likewise Jesus for John. when is the last time you put your head on another man's bosom while reclining nest to him? as close as they were it was a pure affection. No Christ wasn't a sodomite. even the thought makes me cringe.

Jesus didn't shun expressions of affection. in fact he looked to be kissed on the cheek by his host, his hair to be anointed and was surprised when no such gestured was offered. (luke 7)

again bridal love does not equal earhly lust.

Perhaps the affection between John the beloved and Christ is better described as brotherly or familial, rather than bridal.

Christ's bride is the church universal and eternal, not an individual believer. So the use of bridal to describe Christ's relationship with any believer is rather problematic, because of the connotation we usually associate with bridal.

And it's not merely that Christ's love is not lustful. It is that it is not erotic. It has no eros in it. I believe eros to be made for humans (between male and female, as originally designed).



I agree with other posters who have critiqued some of the lyrics posted in this thread
as being overly sentimental and too tinged with human romance. That's taking the metaphor of Christ and His bride (the church) way too far...
especially when we write (and sing) the lyrics from the point of an individual, rather than making them into an expression of the church at large.


That's why I really appreciate the work of "new hymnologists" and writers like Keith Getty and his cowriters ("In Christ Alone," "The Power of the Cross," "Across the Land," and more).

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... including a personal Bridegroom to each.

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Back up you opinion with the Good Book

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ORIGINAL: Stratplayer

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ORIGINAL: tafkam

Oh Lord, you put a tongue in my mouth.
“You Put A Tongue In My Mouth”
by Ian Smalle

Well that one is the crux of the problem right there; French kissing Jesus???? No thanks! I don't think he'd appreciate it either .

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ORIGINAL: keithyhuntington
as far as ccm goes... this is why Steve Taylor wrote such good songs... its a shame he hasnt released a record in 16 years. boo-hiss.

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ORIGINAL: Elena1030

Perhaps the affection between John the beloved and Christ is better described as brotherly or familial, rather than bridal.

Christ's bride is the church universal and eternal, not an individual believer. So the use of bridal to describe Christ's relationship with any believer is rather problematic, because of the connotation we usually associate with bridal.

And it's not merely that Christ's love is not lustful. It is that it is not erotic. It has no eros in it. I believe eros to be made for humans (between male and female, as originally designed).

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ORIGINAL: Elena1030

I agree with other posters who have critiqued some of the lyrics posted in this thread
as being overly sentimental and too tinged with human romance. That's taking the metaphor of Christ and His bride (the church) way too far...
especially when we write (and sing) the lyrics from the point of an individual, rather than making them into an expression of the church at large.

That's why I really appreciate the work of "new hymnologists" and writers like Keith Getty and his cowriters ("In Christ Alone," "The Power of the Cross," "Across the Land," and more).

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ORIGINAL: nealmorsefan

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ORIGINAL: Elena1030

Perhaps the affection between John the beloved and Christ is better described as brotherly or familial, rather than bridal.

Christ's bride is the church universal and eternal, not an individual believer. So the use of bridal to describe Christ's relationship with any believer is rather problematic, because of the connotation we usually associate with bridal.

And it's not merely that Christ's love is not lustful. It is that it is not erotic. It has no eros in it. I believe eros to be made for humans (between male and female, as originally designed).

Amen! Wait...did I just agree with Elena? D'oh!

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ORIGINAL: Elena1030

I agree with other posters who have critiqued some of the lyrics posted in this thread
as being overly sentimental and too tinged with human romance. That's taking the metaphor of Christ and His bride (the church) way too far...
especially when we write (and sing) the lyrics from the point of an individual, rather than making them into an expression of the church at large.

That's why I really appreciate the work of "new hymnologists" and writers like Keith Getty and his cowriters ("In Christ Alone," "The Power of the Cross," "Across the Land," and more).

Yeah, I can see this perspective for the most part. Here's my question along this thoughtline, though: If we consider worship music to be art, could we not agree to disagree on the value of the lyrics and that it's more in the significance the listener delves from it? Does not God speak to people differently?

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P.S. ROFL @ MyCatSmokey's comment! Southern Gospel?! You crack me up, man!

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P.P.S. Thank you Tafkam for the list of "questionable" worship lyrics. I personally have no problem with any of those lyrics because I come from a Pentecoastal tradition and can relate to the depth of personal relationship experienced in those services. Certainly you can take lyrics to mean something the author clearly didn't intend, but hey...if that's what it means to you...

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ORIGINAL: nealmorsefan

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ORIGINAL: Stratplayer

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ORIGINAL: tafkam

Oh Lord, you put a tongue in my mouth.
“You Put A Tongue In My Mouth”
by Ian Smalle

Well that one is the crux of the problem right there; French kissing Jesus???? No thanks! I don't think he'd appreciate it either .

Just starting to read this thread, but this one made me laugh...

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ORIGINAL: mapachito13

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ORIGINAL: nealmorsefan

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ORIGINAL: Stratplayer

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ORIGINAL: tafkam

Oh Lord, you put a tongue in my mouth.
“You Put A Tongue In My Mouth”
by Ian Smalle

Well that one is the crux of the problem right there; French kissing Jesus???? No thanks! I don't think he'd appreciate it either .

Just starting to read this thread, but this one made me laugh...

I finally searched for the lyrics for this song. At first I didn't think it existed. Either Takfam suckered all of us into thinking it was something it's not, or he didn't know he was taking it out of context either.

Upon reading the lyrics, the reason for the title becomes clear and they have no reference to any physical touching of any kind.

"Lord, You put a tongue in my mouth
And I want to sing to You
Lord, You put a tongue in my mouth
And I want to sing to You
Lord, You put a tongue in my mouth
And I want to sing only to You
Lord Jesus, free us in our praise"

He also refers to the Lord giving him arms and hands but it wasn't for fondling Jesus either!

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ORIGINAL: nealmorsefan

Yes, but it's still laugh-out-loud funny when you first see it. We evangelicals can take ourselves a little too seriously sometimes.

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Here's my question along this thoughtline, though: If we consider worship music to be art, could we not agree to disagree on the value of the lyrics and that it's more in the significance the listener delves from it? Does not God speak to people differently?

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If the seduction began with a subtle change in references, so that the soul of the believer (instead of the Church) is the bride of Christ, then sermons, hymns, and prayers are going to have to take pains to avoid the saccharine images that are exacerbating the damage. Christians are going to have to re-inject masculine metaphors into discourse about our Faith. Justification is by the grace of God, but true peace comes from overcoming moral challenges and from disciplined pursuit of real values, not sentimental indulgence.

Art embodies the metaphors by which we live. Art is not the cornerstone of the Christian church, but the artistry in worship and devotion are more significant than the cornerstone of any building in which that church assembles. A cathedral can't be built on slimy sand and be expected to stand for a thousand years. But a thousand years in Purgatory engendered by slimy metaphors does appear to be a possibility for many.

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ORIGINAL: RJR_fan

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Here's my question along this thoughtline, though: If we consider worship music to be art, could we not agree to disagree on the value of the lyrics and that it's more in the significance the listener delves from it? Does not God speak to people differently?

One of the best bosses I ever worked for was a far-left lesbian lady. Prominently displayed in her cubicle was a three-word quotation from Rush Limbaugh:

Words Mean Things.

As a thoughtful reviewer wrote in this excellent article (CLICK here to read it),

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If the seduction began with a subtle change in references, so that the soul of the believer (instead of the Church) is the bride of Christ, then sermons, hymns, and prayers are going to have to take pains to avoid the saccharine images that are exacerbating the damage. Christians are going to have to re-inject masculine metaphors into discourse about our Faith. Justification is by the grace of God, but true peace comes from overcoming moral challenges and from disciplined pursuit of real values, not sentimental indulgence.

Art embodies the metaphors by which we live. Art is not the cornerstone of the Christian church, but the artistry in worship and devotion are more significant than the cornerstone of any building in which that church assembles. A cathedral can't be built on slimy sand and be expected to stand for a thousand years. But a thousand years in Purgatory engendered by slimy metaphors does appear to be a possibility for many.

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ORIGINAL: nealmorsefan

An interesting read...and certainly one perspective (think: Calvin v. Arminius). I don't necessarily agree, though. Certain elements of feminism within Christianity can be problematic for sure. Saying that God only moves one way in and through His people, though, is rather silly. God dealt harshly with Israel at times and gracefully at others. God deals with the entire body of Christ to fulfill certain purposes and inidividual believers to accomplish others. Our God is dynamic. Perhaps the prevailing winds of the Spirit today are toward a compassionate, forgiving God, which would make sense if we are on the precipice of the fulfilment of the Book of Revelations. Also, unless you believe in some high-level conspiracy of modern Christian artists, the fact that this theme of tender-hearted love flowing from God is evident in the writing of worship artists from England to Texas to South Africa to Australia, would be a clear indicator of a trend in how God is moving among His people. Remember, art reflects life, not the other way around. Let us not put God in a box.

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Ever since my inner man first saw you

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ORIGINAL: Auben

... Perhaps the increase in the charismatic church has meant more focus in worship music on feelings and how we experience God. Because we have a limited vocabulary it comes out similar to how we experience that other overwhelming force...love.

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The more conservative denominations that I grew up with did themselves a disservice by plodding through a nearly emotionless song service.

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A lot of the uglier strain of self-righteousness in the American revivalistic tradition was a proto-feminist movement aimed at "domesticating" (subjugating) the men. An effeminate man can easily be bossed around by a real woman, you see, since only one of the two is functioning comfortably and correctly in terms of her created nature.

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ORIGINAL: tafkam

Somebody compiled a list of some of the more distrubing imagery in modern worship....I don't agree with all of them, but it does make for amusing reading...

Jesus take me as I am,
I can come no other way.
Take me deeper into You,
Make my flesh melt away.
- Jesus, Take Me As I Am
By Dave Bryant


Your love is extravagant
Your friendship (mmmm) is intimate
I find I'm moving to the rythyms of your grace
Your fragrance is intoxicating in our secret place

Your love is extravagant
Spread wide in the arms of Christ…
- Your Love is Extravagant
By Darrell Evans


My Jesus, dream maker
My Jesus, life giver
I’m living under the kiss of heaven…
- Kiss of Heaven
By Darlene Zschech


That my heart, beats to the rhythm of Your heart
That my eyes focus on Your beautiful eyes.
- I Adore You
By Phil Wickham


I can't get enough of You
Cause I am in love with You
O How I long for You
Cause I am in love with You

It burns like blazing fire
It rises like a mighty flame
My greatest desire
To be sealed in Love.
- I Am In Love With You
By Darrell Evans


Oh Lord, you put a tongue in my mouth.
“You Put A Tongue In My Mouth”
by Ian Smalle


I need Your loving arms again
I need the warmth of Your embrace
Look into my soul again and set my heart aflame.
- I Need You
By James Choi


I’ll never, no never, I’ll never ever stop loving You.
My precious possession, there is no end to what we can do.
- I'll Never Stop Loving You
By Israel Houghton


I’m falling deeper, coming closer
I can almost hear You breathing.
- Im Falling Deeper (Surface)
By Lifehouse

Intimacy, O Jesus, intimacy.
My treasure will be, O Jesus, Your intimacy.
- Intimacy
By Matt Redman


You've taken my breath away
with your irresistible love
- Irresistible
By Darlene Zschech


And oh, how could I not be moved
Lord here with You
So have Your way in me
- One Desire
Hillsong Australia


I was made to worship and adore you—enjoy you
Put you on a pedestal and lay there before you
The more you do work in me the more I can’t ignore you
I’ve been in awe
Every since my inner man first saw you
- We Worship You
By The Ambassador

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In my experience, charismatics and evangelicals in general care less about the theology of the lyrics in modern worship than the music crafting the emotional setting itself.

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ORIGINAL: nealmorsefan

In my experience, charismatics and evangelicals in general care less about the theology of the lyrics in modern worship than the music crafting the emotional setting itself. I don't say this to be critical of modern worship in the charismatic tradition. What I'm saying is: we could take the songwriting ethos of modern worship music and marry it to richer theological lyrics. There are some writers that do this and I applaud them. Let's not forget, though, that a balanced musical diet includes musical food from all the basic musical food groups. If we had songs only incorporating doctrine and fundamental theological statements, it would be the musical worship equivalent of the Atkins Diet. Good for losing weight, but not practical long-term.