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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 6/9/2009 9:03:01 PM
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bolt.
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In your story of the day, it seems to me that the two major meltdowns were when you had taken the sippy cup away, because he was playing in the milk splashes.
I'm wondering if he was enjoying the exploratory play element of that, not the fact that it was milk. Perhaps there is a way to get some splashing and smearing in to his life, without it being milk (because milk stinks).
Other than that, I'm also wondering if you could take the cup away when he looses interest in actually eating, and then give him back an identical one, but empty (or water filled) as a comfort object.
Of course you could always just keep him firmly in the high chair for any drinking of milk, and have him willingly surrender it in order to get down, since he is such a busy-bundle he might agree -- then if he wants it back all he has to do is get back up and clipped in. He would probably learn to ask for milk by climbing into his chair and trying to do up the clips.
As far as the other baby, try to give her her bottles in a semi-private way, or at least in a way that your son can not physically reach her, and he knows it -- such as in a play-pen or in a high chair in a play-pen, or in another room, or while he watches a video etc.
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 6/9/2009 10:43:52 PM
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nicole6598
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Jenn have you ever tried to drop that morning nap, and then that would be dropping another opportunity to drink, and make his nap after lunch instead? he may soon start to go down to one big nap anyway.
Also I would try breakfast earlier than 8 too. Being up for an hour and a half without anything is a long time. My son gets a small cup of milk first thing (he wakes around 5.30am) and then about 30 mins later we have breakfast.
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 6/9/2009 10:51:09 PM
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mamajennleigh
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Manda, I agree that the bottle station has to go. I also agree that deciding when and where the bottles are given must rest with me, not him. So, those are the two items I am going to start with.
As far as the sippy cup goes, I hadn't really thought about the splashing element. He really enjoys doing that - A LOT. He does it with his bottles, and with his sippy cups. He likes to take a sip or two (out of either), then drip a little to play in while he takes another sip or two. I only give him the sippy cup at meals, because I didn't want to substitute one bad habit (dripping the bottle and playing in it) with another by letting him run around with the sippy cup in the living room. Leakproof apparently is a subjective term.
Today I had to give him the sippy cup outside the highchair because I had the infant in it feeding her during his snack time and so he poured a little on the floor and then lay down to lick it up! UCK! I got to him and took the sippy, which is when he had the major meltdown. I think he just really enjoys exploring the different options of getting his milk into his belly 
So, tomorrow morning the bottle station goes and I'll do the slower weaning of the bottles in bed like Manda suggested before by cutting them in half and then watering them down. We'll go slow and then my husband and I will talk about the whole babysitting thing tomorrow when I have him all to myself.
By the way, Manda, I think you are right about an older child - he has 3 older brothers and has none of those issues when they are around. In fact, when my sister's kids, who are older by a few years, came to visit, he had a blast and wanted to play with them the whole time. No meltdowns at all.. . interesting.
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 6/10/2009 5:24:01 AM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mamajennleigh
I think he is pretty much dropping to one nap already. He really would like to stay up, even though he's clearly tired by around 10am, so that might be an option.
With mine I made a point of us going out every morning round about 10-10.30am, either to the shops or for a walk, just to get them through that mid-morning "dip" so that they either didn't sleep at all, or just napped for 5 mins or so in the car or the pushchair (stroller).
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"Manda.....you said what I tried to say, just much better"
sharonjef, October 2009
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 6/10/2009 5:02:21 PM
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nicole6598
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So how did he sleep last night Jenn? I just try and occupy the kids as much as possible when they are dropping a nap, although now that I pick my daughter up from Kindy, my son will take a little cat nap in the car and then is ok for an hour or so until its his bed time.
hey 6.30am is better than my 5-5.30am wake ups 
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 6/10/2009 11:05:28 PM
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PrincessDonna
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From: Cow country, Upstate NY
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Our progress...
Esther woke up and nursed at 3:30 last night. She would NOT nurse back to sleep, so I decided to try her in her bed. She fussed, but didn't really cry, for about 30 minutes and then went to sleep!!! I was sure it was a fluke, but she did the same thing tonight at bedtime. I did give her a binky, which she has refused for months now. I don't think she sucked on it, but she did play with it...so hey, whatever works!
I'm so excited that she may be going back to getting herself to sleep. But afraid to be too hopeful too...
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 6/11/2009 9:38:03 AM
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mamajennleigh
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Donna, that is so exciting! I love when they do something unexpected and make things easier than we were anticipating. It doesn't happen often, so when it does, we're really excited!
Manda, I don't know how it happened. I was tired, hubby was tired, I haven't been feeling my best and when I woke up this morning to a full-blown cold I realize why, but that's no excuse. It's simply the reason why he ended up with a bottle at bedtime.
So, yesterday the doc tells me that Aaron is very "aggressive" and "strong-willed" (as if I needed his help articulating that one  ) after watching Aaron repeatedly hit me with a book because I would remove the edge of it from his mouth (I didn't want him to chew on their books) while screaming. He told me that if my husband and I don't put our foot down now about the bottle, we're going to be putting ourselves out there for a really hard time the longer we wait. He told me to use time outs for undesirable behavior like hitting and screaming for what he wants (I thought they were too young for that, but again, it's been 11 years since I had a baby, so maybe I'm just not remembering right) and that I need to just put him in his crib and let him find his own way to sleep. He said Aaron needs us to show him the way, and we've been letting him get away with murder. He also said that all the screaming and fit-throwing is his way of trying to control his world and that we need to recognize that he is not emotionally ready to control anything, so we need to make those decisions for him and stick to them so he can feel secure.
He also told me that babysitting another baby is most definitely making Aaron crankier and causing him to show out more, but that it's not the end of the world and that we need to be firm with him and he'll "get over it".
I'm making him sound meaner than he was, but just trying to get the gist of what he told me down without all the extra fluff. He was really kind about it, actually, and told me he understands that Aaron is our last baby (unless God has other plans) and that we are reluctant to seem "harsh". He says it is for Aaron's good that we get hold of the situation. At this point, almost as if to be funny, Aaron pointed at the door and waved bye bye at the doc as if to tell him to get out!
Ok, so I'm not sure how I feel about all of that, but I'm trying to process it. Because I spent most of my other boys' early childhoods sick and making a lot of bad choices, it is really important to me that I get this right. I really want to be a good mommy to Aaron, and I want to give him all the love and attention I wasn't able to give my other boys, but I also want to give him the boundaries and discipline he needs. Does that make sense?
I'm not opposed to letting him cry it out a bit in order to get rid of the bottle at naptime. I can handle his crying, I mean, he does it every time he doesn't get his way so I'm used to the sound of it  I'm just worried because today he is sick with a little cold and has a molar coming through and is really especially unhappy. Is it ok to do this while he is not feeling well?
This morning we got up, I gave him a bottle with regular milk (we're out of formula and the doc says no more after yesterday) with just 4 oz. in it. I gave it to him with his breakfast, and he seemed to really like it, taking bites of his food and washing them down with the milk. He finished the bottle and his breakfast and that was that. No more bottle and it wasn't a big deal. I think I can just substitute the sippy cup one day and see if he notices. Now it's getting close to naptime and I'm wondering what I should do now.
Oh yeah, the doc says I'm not supposed to give him more than 16 to 20 oz of milk A DAY. Holy Moly, I've been giving him 6 bottles of milk lol! No wonder he wouldn't eat!
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We may not have arrived, but Praise the Lord we've set sail!
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 6/11/2009 10:11:49 AM
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bolt.
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From: Canada
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Go out. Get yourselves into the great outdoors. Just put a blanket in the front yard with a few toys if that's all you are up for, or go for a walk.
If he's dead-tired, let him go to bed, but not with a bottle, or go for a quick car ride. Wake him after about 15 minutes of sleep, and then go out.
Sounds like things are going to be fine... he can scream, but if noise is his only 'weapon' then he's really only making himself miserable.
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 6/11/2009 10:28:40 AM
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mamajennleigh
Posts: 975
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Well, normally we would be out for a nice long walk, but we are both really sick today with colds and I have found I can't be too far from the "facilities" so I gave him a little daytime medicine and I brought out some toys he doesn't usually get to play with because they are super noisy and between his usual ranting and the noisiness of the toys I can't take it. He's playing nicely with them now and I'm hoping to put off his nap until after lunch at noon. I'm going to make him a snack if he gets really fussy - maybe a few graham crackers with a sippy cup of water. I am shocked to find that I don't know when my son is actually hungry since he used to get a bottle whenever he was fussy because I assumed that's what he needed.
He doesn't seem to really care about the bottle. One of my older sons didn't know that we are doing something new, so he made him a bottle while I was in the bathroom, but thankfully, Aaron didn't want it and threw it on the floor. I got rid of it in case he changed his mind. Now he's alternating between screaming for no apparent reason, hitting his toys, and quietly playing. He isn't rubbing his eyes or showing his usual signs of being "dead tired" yet, so I think we're good for a while longer..
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We may not have arrived, but Praise the Lord we've set sail!
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 6/11/2009 10:44:15 AM
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bolt.
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Try for lunch at 11:30 or 11:15, and the actual nap sooner in the 'afternoon' rather than later.
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 6/11/2009 12:38:58 PM
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mamajennleigh
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Ok, so this was interesting, to say the least:
At around 11am, I brought out the graham crackers and a sippy cup of water. Aaron was happy to see them, so I gave him one small cracker at a time, plus his sippy. He did well, until he reached a point where he wandered away from where we were sitting and then decided he wanted another cracker. He pointed at it and screamed for it and I said, "no screaming, say 'please' and you can have another cracker." He threw himself in the floor and started throwing a tantrum. Then he began to hit me and basically just melted down. My husband, who was home early today, told me not to give him the cracker until he said 'please' or at least pointed to it without screaming or hitting me.
SO, each time he would come point at the cracker, I would ask him to say 'please' and he would repeat the above, throwing himself in the floor and then hitting me. Mind you, he says please any other time, but today he meant he was going to have that cracker and have it his way.
This went on for 45 minutes. I tried to get him interested in something else, all to no avail. I even went to the kitchen and made his lunch, which he refused to even acknowledge. He was single-mindedly intent on getting that cracker and screaming and hitting me to get it. It took a lot of patience that I don't possess to refrain from giving in and just letting him have the cracker. But, I really felt that this was one of those moments (I've had them with all my boys) where whoever gives in rules the roost. So, I didn't give in. I didn't pacify him with a bottle, which is something I might have normally tried.
He finally put his head in my lap and rubbed his eyes and fell asleep at 12:30. I took him upstairs and laid him in his crib, where he woke up and looked at me, closed his eyes and went back to sleep.
So, I guess lunch will be when he gets up.
Wow, have I really spoiled him this badly? He screamed his head off until I was sure he was going to fall asleep standing up! He was so angry, he was shaking, and yet, he refused to say 'please'. He would start hitting if my husband or I even said the word 'please'!
What in the world?
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We may not have arrived, but Praise the Lord we've set sail!
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 6/11/2009 12:49:10 PM
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mamajennleigh
Posts: 975
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From: Fuquay-Varina, NC
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quote:
It was something that we just had to set our foot down on though and not give up or give in because he would take that as his winning the fight, then it made the next time that much harder.
peculiar_lady2, your post sounds so much like my Aaron, it's scary! I am amazed that he will not hit my husband, and actually has never hit him that I can remember, but he hits me anytime he is not happy with his current state of affairs. He hits his toys, but he won't hit his daddy. I don't know why he feels it's ok to hit me, but not my husband.
I agree after seeing this "tantrum" today that the time to put our foot down is now. This is one stubborn, strong-willed baby. I wish you could have seen this - my husband had papers laying out all over the couch and normally this would be his personal invitation (the way he sees it anyway) to get into them all, but he would have nothing to do with any of it. In fact, he never left the corner of the couch where I had that cracker. In all my years of being a mother (going on 17 now) I have never seen anything like this.
I mean, they all had those "showdown" moments where they would throw a fit for something, we wouldn't give in, and they would scream until one of us finally gave in. But, it never lasted an entire hour! I don't remember any of my other children hitting me out of anger, other than the first "try-it-just-to-see-what-will-happen" taps all babies give. A stern "No hitting" was all I really needed for the others, and an occasional holding their hands away from my face. I repeated this each time they tried and they eventually gave up and stopped hitting me. Not this kid. No way. It seems like my getting onto him about it just spurns more of the same behavior.
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We may not have arrived, but Praise the Lord we've set sail!
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 6/11/2009 12:50:53 PM
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mamajennleigh
Posts: 975
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From: Fuquay-Varina, NC
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quote:
he can scream, but if noise is his only 'weapon' then he's really only making himself miserable.
pbaribeault,
I kept saying this to myself the entire time he was screaming, and honestly, looking at it this way helped me realize I could stay calm because he just doesn't have any other way of expressing his frustration at this point.
_____________________________
We may not have arrived, but Praise the Lord we've set sail!
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 6/11/2009 1:32:36 PM
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manda59
Posts: 8199
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mamajennleigh
I'm making him sound meaner than he was, but just trying to get the gist of what he told me down without all the extra fluff.
I didn't think you made him sound mean at all - in fact I was glad that he'd been that direct and insightful about everything!
quote:
I'm just worried because today he is sick with a little cold and has a molar coming through and is really especially unhappy. Is it ok to do this while he is not feeling well?
YES IT IS!! He has a cold and is teething, he hasn't broken a limb! 
quote:
Oh yeah, the doc says I'm not supposed to give him more than 16 to 20 oz of milk A DAY. Holy Moly, I've been giving him 6 bottles of milk lol! No wonder he wouldn't eat!
I did wonder how much you were giving him! Once he's eating more he doesn't even need that, if he's eating other things that contain calcium. My doctor advised that I should take Jonathan off milk completely when he was about 15 months old, because, whilst teething, he'd got a massive chest infection that he was finding hard to shift, and the doctor said to keep him off milk till he was better. So instead he had things like canned salmon or sardines, dried apricots and cubes of cheese.
My Jonathan was a strong-willed and temperamental toddler (from about a year onwards) so I can relate a lot to what you are saying btw. Strangely enough though, he grew into a cool, calm and collected young boy and has stayed that way (he's 19 now!) I started time-outs for tantrums when he was about 13/14 months old. I used our bathroom for that (I'd actually put him in the bath - with no water in btw!) - as our bathroom was just off our kitchen, and I could carry on doing things whilst still being close by. I used to say to him "now, you can yell as loud as you like while you're in here, but you can only come out when you've stopped". Eventually, he'd say "I dopped!" and come out all on his own. He'd also take himself there when he found himself getting a bit stressy (saying "I know, I go bathroom") and march there on his own!
_____________________________
"Manda.....you said what I tried to say, just much better"
sharonjef, October 2009
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 6/11/2009 1:35:54 PM
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manda59
Posts: 8199
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mamajennleigh
quote:
he can scream, but if noise is his only 'weapon' then he's really only making himself miserable.
pbaribeault,
I kept saying this to myself the entire time he was screaming, and honestly, looking at it this way helped me realize I could stay calm because he just doesn't have any other way of expressing his frustration at this point.
My Jonathan used to have a very low boredom threshhold if we went to the shops. I'd go in and know that I had about 10 mins max before he'd start whingeing. One day, I had to go to the chemists as well, having already been to another store, and he whinged, started grizzling, then threw himself on the floor in front of me.
I carried on shopping , stepping over him to get to the display from which I wanted to buy something. I stayed close by, but didn't do or say anything to him. (I heard people behind me saying "why doesn't she just smack him?" and ignored them). After a couple of minutes, he stopped crying and I said "are you feeling better now?" and offered him my hand. He took it, got up, and we went to the checkout (he was fine!)
It's all good fun!
_____________________________
"Manda.....you said what I tried to say, just much better"
sharonjef, October 2009
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He was the youngest and was really baby-ed, and I don't think it did him any good at all.
