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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 6/11/2009 1:53:41 PM
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mamajennleigh
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Manda, that story really made me smile. I actually spent some time thinking while Aaron's been asleep about my other boys and what they were like as babies. I spent so much of that time sick, but I do remember a lot, and in particular, my oldest had a temperament similar to Aaron's (although seems like not as strong!). I remember doing something very similar in a store once when it was clear that nothing I was going to do (that was within the boundaries I felt ok with anyway) was going to help this kid calm down, and that giving in to him was going to show him who was boss, and that it wasn't ME. So, I just let him melt down right there in the middle of Wal-mart and when he was finished, he looked up and looked around, wiped his face on his sleeve, and stood up like nothing ever happened. It makes me laugh now to remember it.
Peculiar_lady2, thank you for your encouragement. Earlier I was thinking, "what have I done to cause this" which is probably the most unproductive line of thinking a mom can get herself into, and instead should have been thinking "what can I do to remedy this situation" so that we could work on fixing it instead of wasting time mulling over how we got here. Knowing where you came from is only useful if you don't spend the time you could be working on getting somewhere else to find out.
He should be getting up from his nap soon, and we'll have lunch with a sippy cup and hopefully get on with the day. I plan on putting him to bed this evening without a bottle as well, so please say a prayer that I will be strong and do what's best for Aaron instead of what's easy.
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 6/11/2009 2:09:31 PM
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PrincessDonna
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quote:
I really don't think this has it's roots in spoiling...it is just who he is and this is how he is choosing to show his fighting spirit and strong willed nature. Those attributes are good when used properly, and he is at the age where he has to learn to define and refine them. Do you spoil, yes, I am sure you do...but I do not think it is causing these issues.
I agree.
Exactly how old it he, Jenn? I'm sure I should know this, but I can't think...LOL. I'm wondering if he is old enough that I would demand a "please" before giving him something. Even if he can say it and does sometimes, once he is already upset, that is probably not the time to battle that point with a baby (by that, I mean less than 2).
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 6/11/2009 2:11:24 PM
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manda59
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Donna
Jenn's little boy has just turned one.
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sharonjef, October 2009
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 6/11/2009 2:20:30 PM
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PrincessDonna
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Okay, I would definitely not demand a please if he is already upset. Encourage it when he is happy and calm, and model it for him (YOU say, "Mommy, may I have a sippy/cracker/toy, please?" and then answer yourself cheerfully). But I really would not make a big deal of it at a year old. Two...a little more, and by three, definitely.
He sounds like he is definitely strong-willed, but like Sarah said, a lot of that is likely who he is, and you can't change that, nor do you want to!
At the age of 1, I would pick one or two issues you want to work on right now, and use distraction via change of scenery for the other stuff. So...the bottle and sleep issues are MORE than enough right now, IMO/E. You don't have to let him be a brat with the other stuff, but you can "ignore" things without ignoring them, if that makes sense?
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 6/11/2009 2:27:51 PM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mamajennleigh
At around 11am, I brought out the graham crackers and a sippy cup of water. Aaron was happy to see them, so I gave him one small cracker at a time, plus his sippy. He did well, until he reached a point where he wandered away from where we were sitting and then decided he wanted another cracker. He pointed at it and screamed for it and I said, "no screaming, say 'please' and you can have another cracker." He threw himself in the floor and started throwing a tantrum. Then he began to hit me and basically just melted down. My husband, who was home early today, told me not to give him the cracker until he said 'please' or at least pointed to it without screaming or hitting me.
Was there any particular reason you were only giving him the crackers one at a time? Next time it might be an idea to only bring in the amount you want him to have, and put them on a (plastic) plate or in a (plastic) bowl for him to help himself. If he messes about with them, they get put away. If he eats them all and wants more, you can show him empty hands and the empty plate and say "all gone" (and ignore any tantrums).
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sharonjef, October 2009
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 6/11/2009 6:18:14 PM
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mamajennleigh
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I think you are all right. . . I definitely won't require him to say please, but I will require him to get what he wants without hitting me and screaming at me. I guess 'please' was the only thing I could think of that he knows in order to convey how I wanted him to get the cracker, you know? I'm not anxious to go through that again, so I'll think of ways to get around that next time without the major showdown. I thought of all of this while we were in the midst of it, but once I was there, I was there, kwim?
Manda, the reason I only give him one cracker at a time is that they are the kind that breaks off of the larger cracker (I don't know if you have this kind where you are) so that there are two rectangle crackers that make up a "square" with a perforated center. They are kind of large and he is just now learning to take bites off of something larger that he's eating, although we still have to watch very carefully to make sure he doesn't get bored with the process and shove the entire thing in his mouth.
All in all this afternoon has been a tremendous success once he was up from his nap. He has actually gone up to my husband and held out his hand (that's how he says 'please') to get a bite of his sandwich, which made me laugh. I'm not pressing the 'please' issue, but I'm at least glad he's not screaming at him the way he was before to get something.
If any of you have any ideas about how to go about showing him I want him not to scream or hit to get something without requiring him to say 'please' I'm all ears! Like I said, this is relatively new to me (even though I have older boys) and I honestly don't remember going through anything like this with the other 3.
Thanks so much for all of your help and encouragement. I am praying that God guides me where Aaron is concerned, and for the most part, his personality is what endears him to my heart - he is who he is and he is tremendously entertaining! If we can guide that strong personality to the path God has for him, then we'll have done what we were meant to do as his parents. Pray for us, please!
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 6/11/2009 6:22:09 PM
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mamajennleigh
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quote:
You don't have to let him be a brat with the other stuff, but you can "ignore" things without ignoring them, if that makes sense?
I know what you're saying and I agree!
quote:
agree with Manda too...why not go ahead and let him experiment more with things, like giving him the whole cracker in a bowl...if he dumps it, say "Oh no, let's pick that up", then help him pick it up and put it back in the bowl. Let him have some control of things and I am sure he will not mind at all. I think he just wants to control something, and is finally to the age that he can start to do that (when and where you deem OK)
I love this idea! I got his bowl out and put one snack in it and let him get it out and eat it. He actually brought me the bowl and put his hand out to get more. No fussing, no crying, no hitting. He practiced taking the snack out and putting it back in the bowl a few times, then just ate it and brought me the bowl. Progress!!! Thanks so much 
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 6/11/2009 6:42:49 PM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mamajennleigh
Manda, the reason I only give him one cracker at a time is that they are the kind that breaks off of the larger cracker (I don't know if you have this kind where you are) so that there are two rectangle crackers that make up a "square" with a perforated center. They are kind of large and he is just now learning to take bites off of something larger that he's eating, although we still have to watch very carefully to make sure he doesn't get bored with the process and shove the entire thing in his mouth.
Yes, we do have that kind of cracker here, lol. What I'm not quite sure of is why you're worried about him putting the whole thing in his mouth. If it's too big, he won't do it again. 
quote:
All in all this afternoon has been a tremendous success once he was up from his nap.
Today's a day without the baby though, right?
quote:
If any of you have any ideas about how to go about showing him I want him not to scream or hit to get something without requiring him to say 'please' I'm all ears!
Can you give me an example of how he might come to you and what he might do to show he wants something? Is screaming or hitting the first thing he does, or does he do something else first?
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"Manda.....you said what I tried to say, just much better"
sharonjef, October 2009
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 6/11/2009 6:51:59 PM
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bolt.
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Perhaps an instruction he would understand (instead of hitting to get something) would be, "Show me a friendly hand. This cracker wants a friendly hand... Excuse me cracker, do you want to go to that agressive hand? <answer in a funny voice 'no' and twist the cracker as-in 'no'> Oh, sonny, this cracker will not go to agressive hands. Do you have any friendly hands? Show me a friendly hand."
Or a similar thing with "Bring me the bowl" or whatever process you want to implement for getting more snacks. With a child like this, I reccomend teaching him ONE process that always works, and teaching it specifically and intentionally. It's less confusing than if he keeps guessing the 45 ways one can try to get more of a snack, and 17 of them work most of the time etc. etc. So pick something that's acceptable to you, and easily attainable at his development level and set that up as 'the way that works' -- showing him about 100 times in calm happy moments. (The reason it's not 'say please' is because that's within his grasp some of the time, when he's calm, collected, and well rested, but it's not well within his grasp all the time.
Also, at this age, do not persue the fight. Once he totally melts down and couldn't comply if he wanted to (and he doesn't want to) just end it by putting the item away (preferably out of sight) and moving on with your life. He will point and bang and scream -- but at least it's directed at a cupboard rather than you, and it will be shorter than your continuing to bait him.
The best thing to do then is to engage yourself in something else for a while, then look up as if genuinely and sweetly surprised and say, "What's this about? Are you still fussing? There's no point you know." and carry on. You could even tempt him by deciding you would really like to play with blocks, since you've got the time while he fusses -- but don't bait him by being open about that. He's too little to know you didn't actually want to play with the blocks for your own sake.
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 6/11/2009 7:02:36 PM
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nicole6598
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I like the ideas in pbar's last post there, that's what I have done with my kids (and my son is 21 months so he's into the tantrum stage) when they throw tantrums. Like the others have said getting him to say please is hard for him, he showed that by melting down, I don't expect my son to say please for food, he comes and pats me and says "yummy" which means food and I get it and if he wants more he brings me his bowl. The way I got him to that stage was "you want more? Give mummy the bowl" and we kept doing that til he could do it himself.
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 6/11/2009 10:22:36 PM
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mamajennleigh
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quote:
Yes, we do have that kind of cracker here, lol. What I'm not quite sure of is why you're worried about him putting the whole thing in his mouth. If it's too big, he won't do it again.
Well, the thing about this, Manda, is that he continues to do it, even though it gags and chokes him. In fact, he regularly sticks his fingers as far down his throat as possible to choke himself because he thinks it's funny! (I actually think he likes the horrored shock on my face but I can't seem to keep from making that face since I cannot imagine why anyone would want to do that on purpose!)
What he normally does to show me he wants something is to hold his hand out, palm up, which is actually how he says 'please' (he doesn't actually say the word as of yet). He comes to one of us, flips his hand over and looks expectantly. I began to associate that with 'please' by saying it every time he flipped his hand over for something, from the very first time he held his hand out, so that's pretty much how he asks first. The thing is, he is very very impatient and if I don't give him what he wants right away, he screams, waits a second to see if I'm going to give him what he's asking for, and then starts hitting.
quote:
Also, at this age, do not persue the fight. Once he totally melts down and couldn't comply if he wanted to (and he doesn't want to) just end it by putting the item away (preferably out of sight) and moving on with your life. He will point and bang and scream -- but at least it's directed at a cupboard rather than you, and it will be shorter than your continuing to bait him.
This is a very important point that I missed during our earlier "showdown". I think that had I just put the cracker away and moved on with my own agenda, we could have ended the stand-off more pleasantly. I will definitely remember this for tomorrow when there is likely to be another struggle for control.
I have learned something today about Aaron, thanks to all of the words of advice and encouragement from the ladies here on the board. I have seriously been missing Aaron's hunger cues, and once we took the bottle out of the picture and really paid attention, it was pretty clear that the majority of his screaming andfit-throwing took place right around the time we were figuring out that he was hungry. I think he was taking the bottle as a substitute for food, but it wasn't really filling him up or keeping him full for any length of time, if that makes any sense.
This evening, he drank a sippy cup of milk before bed, and then I took a bottle of water with him to bed (I know I was being a chicken and was afraid to take him up there with nothing). He had it thrown out of the crib before I left the room. He never made a peep and is fast asleep. No screaming, no crying, no fussing. Earlier today one of my older sons came back from a friend's with a small stuffed bear that Aaron instantly fell in love with. I put it in his crib with him and he had it next to him when he rolled over as I was leaving the room.
I can't tell you all how much your advice and encouragement has helped me through what would have been a really difficult day today. Actually the past few days would have been unbearable and I probably would have just given up and felt like a bad mom. I am seeing things a little more clearly and feel like I have actually made some progress in understanding this little human being and that I've maybe made some progress in being a good mommy to him and doing what he needs rather than what he wants. With my past, that is a major accomplishment, indeed.
I know someone is really praying for us; I could feel it earlier as I was getting his stuffed toy and he was already going to the gate at the bottom of the stairs and pointing up, indicating that he was ready to go to bed  . God bless you, whoever you are!
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 6/11/2009 10:54:38 PM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mamajennleigh
Well, the thing about this, Manda, is that he continues to do it, even though it gags and chokes him. In fact, he regularly sticks his fingers as far down his throat as possible to choke himself because he thinks it's funny! (I actually think he likes the horrored shock on my face but I can't seem to keep from making that face since I cannot imagine why anyone would want to do that on purpose!)
Well I'm just surprised that with the number of children you've had already that none of them have done this before! It's pretty common. I think you're right about him liking the reaction it produces in you, so it might help if you're really strong and just don't let your face change at all when he does it. Just be very matter of fact and get on with whatever you are doing and don't let your horror show.
Re the cracker, you could always produce two crackers joined together and show him how to break them before eating them. Make a game of it and say "SNAP!" or something like that and then put both pieces in his bowl.
quote:
What he normally does to show me he wants something is to hold his hand out, palm up, which is actually how he says 'please' (he doesn't actually say the word as of yet). He comes to one of us, flips his hand over and looks expectantly. I began to associate that with 'please' by saying it every time he flipped his hand over for something, from the very first time he held his hand out, so that's pretty much how he asks first. The thing is, he is very very impatient and if I don't give him what he wants right away, he screams, waits a second to see if I'm going to give him what he's asking for, and then starts hitting.
I don't know if you perhaps do this already, but when Aaron makes a hand gesture, say back to him "Aaron, would you like a ..........?" or "Aaron, are you asking for a .......?" , "Aaron, are you hungry/thirsty?" or "Aaron, are you saying, 'may I have one of those please?'"
What some of this may be about is his desire to talk - the natural frustration that starts to appear in a child as they begin to want to communicate. Yes, he makes the gestures, but maybe inside, even already, he wants to make the words too. And so, when he maybe thinks he hasn't been understood, he gets upset, at himself and at you.
By saying the words out loud, you're showing him you've "heard" - you're also saying the words that he will one day copy and start to say.
quote:
He never made a peep and is fast asleep. No screaming, no crying, no fussing. Earlier today one of my older sons came back from a friend's with a small stuffed bear that Aaron instantly fell in love with. I put it in his crib with him and he had it next to him when he rolled over as I was leaving the room.
That's great!! 
You're doing so well!!
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"Manda.....you said what I tried to say, just much better"
sharonjef, October 2009
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 6/11/2009 11:52:00 PM
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bolt.
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One thing that I've had sucsess with (my dd is 18 months, but of a different temperament) is the imperative, "Wait." I use my imperative tone, and at the beginning I would be saying it as I was visibly preparing what she wanted, so she grasped the idea of my response being positive, but not instant.
She would say, "Mo." (which, at the time, meant 'milk')
And I would say, "Yes. Milk. Yes. Mo. <Name> Wait. Milk is in the fridge. <Name> Wait. See, here it is. Now we need a cup. <Name> Wait. OK, I'm pouring milk! Good waiting. <Name> Wait. Good. It's coming! Here's your milk. Thank you, milk."
In this way I taught her the meaning of the imperative, "Wait." And through my cheery commentary I taught that waiting is a time for watching and talking, not for screaming. I did not withold anything if she did scream the whole time. At a year, discipline is mostly about modeling and teaching vocabulary, not so much about consiquences.
To be clear, it is not about him learning to wait right now, it's just about him learning the word and the mood of what you will later expect him to begin to pick up about waiting. You're not 'working on' this skill -- you're just broadcasting information.
Now she copes well with waiting if I am careful to say to her, "Yes. I am going to <whatever>. <Name> Wait." And she no longer needs the elaborate commentary or to be able to see how my actions contribute to her getting what she wants.
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 6/11/2009 11:58:07 PM
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PrincessDonna
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pbaribeault
One thing that I've had sucsess with (my dd is 18 months, but of a different temperament) is the imperative, "Wait." I use my imperative tone, and at the beginning I would be saying it as I was visibly preparing what she wanted, so she grasped the idea of my response being positive, but not instant.
She would say, "Mo." (which, at the time, meant 'milk')
And I would say, "Yes. Milk. Yes. Mo. <Name> Wait. Milk is in the fridge. <Name> Wait. See, here it is. Now we need a cup. <Name> Wait. OK, I'm pouring milk! Good waiting. <Name> Wait. Good. It's coming! Here's your milk. Thank you, milk."
In this way I taught her the meaning of the imperative, "Wait." And through my cheery commentary I taught that waiting is a time for watching and talking, not for screaming. I did not withold anything if she did scream the whole time. At a year, discipline is mostly about modeling and teaching vocabulary, not so much about consiquences.
To be clear, it is not about him learning to wait right now, it's just about him learning the word and the mood of what you will later expect him to begin to pick up about waiting. You're not 'working on' this skill -- you're just broadcasting information.
Now she copes well with waiting if I am careful to say to her, "Yes. I am going to <whatever>. <Name> Wait." And she no longer needs the elaborate commentary or to be able to see how my actions contribute to her getting what she wants.
Perfect! We do much the same. I love how you explain things. Levi (28 months) is still learning to wait. He's getting better, but it's a realllllly hard thing for some kids! Patience and persistence will get it done though.
You're doing great, Jenn. How'd he do going down tonight?
Esther fussed herself to sleep at nap time, and again at bedtime. Hallelujah, I don't think it is a fluke! Seems as though she started being able to do that as soon as she started walking (last week), so maybe she is tiring herself out with that? LOL Milestones are often connected to sleep, or the lack thereof, IME.
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 6/12/2009 12:20:41 AM
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nicole6598
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Way to go Donna! (And Esther )
I love how Pam describes things too!
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 6/12/2009 9:55:24 AM
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mamajennleigh
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Pam, I love the idea of the commentary for 'wait'. My family thinks I am nuts (and of course before I was healed they were correct lol) but I am constantly talking to Aaron, and did so with all my babies. I've had people look at me like I had two heads in the grocery store because I talked to Aaron the whole time we were in there!
I thought of you Manda, last night when I cut up a piece of bologna and put all the pieces on a plate for Aaron. He shoved so many of them in his mouth, and of course I started to get worried that he was going to choke, but once he realized he wasn't going to be able to swallow all of that bologna, he took some out and put it back on the plate .
Donna, he went down like a champ last night. He threw his bottle of water on the floor before I even left the room and rolled over and was rubbing the new stuffed animal his brother brought him. He slept until 9:00 this morning! That has to be some kind of record for this early riser!
SO, this morning he got up at 9am and I had his breakfast all ready for him. He took his 4 oz of milk from a sippy, with a small cup of yogurt (he loves yogurt, but it doesn't love him, so he can only have a small amount at a time) and a 1/2 of a banana. He had a small biscuit, too, but he was full so he didn't want it. He didn't fuss about not having a bottle at all, and didn't go to the corner where they were kept looking for one either! Thing is, I hadn't really planned on NOT giving him a bottle, but he hasn't asked for it, and now he's happily watching a Sesame Street video while I get ready for our walk! He hasn't screamed at all and seems to be in a much better mood today than he has been lately.
Thank you LORD!!!
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 6/12/2009 9:58:57 AM
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bolt.
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Don't let him get too hungry, since he's not having the bottle's extra calories at the normal time.
If he does get too hungry, take a note of what time that happened at so you can catch it in-advance tomorrow.
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 6/12/2009 10:20:14 AM
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mamajennleigh
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But, he didn't miss any of the calories, since he still had the 4 oz of milk, just not from a bottle. Do you mean for the rest of the day, or have I misunderstood?
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 6/12/2009 10:52:06 AM
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manda59
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jenn,
I'd imagine by the time he gets hungry it will be lunchtime. And not having the mid morning bottle will likely make him more keen for it.
You can always give him a few bits of cracker and some water mid-morning if he seems hungry.
What other snacky things does he like? Does he like raisins, or chopped dried apricots? They can make good mid-morning snacks, without being too substantial. Or a little piece of cheese (is he ok with cheese?)
Btw, both of mine loved a plain breadstick, or half of one, for a snack, and they never seemed to bite too much off either!
Very well done about letting him manage his own bologna intake last night!
(btw, what is his problem with yogurt - what happens?)
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"Manda.....you said what I tried to say, just much better"
sharonjef, October 2009
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 6/12/2009 12:16:58 PM
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bolt.
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My thoughts were of a missing mid-morning bottle. I guess I wasn't reading carefully enough.
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 6/12/2009 5:45:39 PM
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nicole6598
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My kids snack on fruit throughout the day. Of course its easier in summer and spring, so in winter we just have apple, banana, and mandarin, but they still gobble all that down.
9am!!!! I am jealous!!! Nath went down at 8.30pm and was still up at 5.20am 
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 6/12/2009 11:56:20 PM
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mamajennleigh
Posts: 976
Joined: 12/6/2007
From: Fuquay-Varina, NC
Status: online
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Sorry I couldn't get back on here today; something weird with my computer but it's all fixed now thanks to hubby.
So, where were we - oh yes, Pam, he never whined for a bottle all day today! At mid-morning, we were on our walk so when he started to fuss, I gave him his graham crackers and his sippy with water and he was happy as a clam, riding in the stroller and singing to himself. Meanwhile I am huffing and puffing and sweating while pushing that monstrosity of a double stroller uphill  .
We came home and he played outside in two very large bowls of water while one of my older sons made him a plate of cut-up bologna and half a banana. Although he only had a very small cup of yogurt, he basically had the same reaction as always - watery instead of firm stool. His little rear is all chapped and red. Ok, so no more yogurt. It's a shame because he really really likes it lol. He ate heartily and drank his sippy cup of about 3 or 4 oz of milk, then it was time for bed at 1:00pm.
He took his nap with a bottle of water (which he took a few sips of and then laid it down next to him in the crib) and slept for over 2 hours. Woke up in an excellent mood.
He had scrambled eggs for dinner and another 4 oz of milk in his sippy. Went down for the night at around 9pm or so and took his bottle of water, but this time he just laid it next to him and went to sleep, no fussing at all.
Ahhhh, now that's what I call a good day. He was really pleasant today, only hitting me once (and it was a doozy as he hit me in the face with both hands while I was holding him with both of my hands and had asked him for a kiss) and of course he experienced his first time out for that. No problems with it other than that. He got a little whiny and fussy and started screaming when it was clearly time for bed. We remedied that by putting him to bed :)
So, all in all, a great day. He's been running a bit of a fever today and I'm not sure if it's the teething or a cold, but he's been waking up every little while and crying, so we'll see if I might need to go in and give him some tylenol in a bit, but I think we are making wonderful progress, thanks to all of you!
_____________________________
We may not have arrived, but Praise the Lord we've set sail!
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