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How to explain Neanderthals, ice age and Noah's Ark to non-believers?
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RE: How to explain Neanderthals, ice age and Noah's Ark... - 10/20/2008 3:13:18 PM
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Jhud
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Well, I don't know how all these are supposed to be related, but on the issue of Neanderthals, I don't see any reason why we wouldn't consider them to be fully human.
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I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
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RE: How to explain Neanderthals, ice age and Noah's Ark... - 10/20/2008 3:19:37 PM
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Mrs.X
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They aren't related really. Just three separate topics that I always kinda wondered about.
Do you think the neanderthals were around the same time as homosapiens, or do you think neanderthals were just earlier people like Adam and Eve?
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RE: How to explain Neanderthals, ice age and Noah's Ark... - 10/20/2008 3:50:41 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
They aren't related really. Just three separate topics that I always kinda wondered about.
Do you think the neanderthals were around the same time as homosapiens, or do you think neanderthals were just earlier people like Adam and Eve?
I think it's been fairly safe to say both that we share a common ancestor with Neanderthals, and that our ancestors lived when Neanderthals were still around.
And there is no reason to believe that Adam and Eve could be the ancestors of both groups of humans; indeed, if Neandertahls were humans, they would have to share that common ancestor with us.
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Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: How to explain Neanderthals, ice age and Noah's Ark... - 10/20/2008 4:02:16 PM
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catfighter
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
on the issue of Neanderthals, I don't see any reason why we wouldn't consider them to be fully human.
umm.. because they weren't?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Neandertal_vs_Sapiens.jpg
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RE: How to explain Neanderthals, ice age and Noah's Ark... - 10/20/2008 5:20:58 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
umm.. because they weren't?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Neandertal_vs_Sapiens.jpg
Since when are humans defined by a particular skull shape? And where specifically is the line?
Perhaps you can tell us which of these skulls is fully human, and which is not?
Skull A
Skulls B&C
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I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: How to explain Neanderthals, ice age and Noah's Ark... - 10/20/2008 8:21:59 PM
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unclemonkey
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ORIGINAL:catfighterquote:
umm.. because they weren't?
I see nothing in your example other than minor morphological differences. Compare the skull of a Scandinavian with the skull of an Australian Aborigine and just as distinctive morphological differences are obvious. Are either of those groups not fully human?
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RE: How to explain Neanderthals, ice age and Noah's Ark... - 10/20/2008 8:28:00 PM
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unclemonkey
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ORIGINAL:Mrs.Xquote:
Do you think the neanderthals were around the same time as homosapiens, or do you think neanderthals were just earlier people like Adam and Eve?
Neanderthals were simply a people well adapted to the harsh conditions of an ice age.
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RE: How to explain Neanderthals, ice age and Noah's Ark... - 10/21/2008 12:32:09 AM
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catfighter
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
umm.. because they weren't?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Neandertal_vs_Sapiens.jpg
Since when are humans defined by a particular skull shape? And where specifically is the line?
Perhaps you can tell us which of these skulls is fully human, and which is not?
Skull A
Skulls B&C
I wouldn't ever try to, since I'm not an expert in the field, and neither are you. Humans as a species have certain unique physiological attributes. If a species differs in one or more of those physiological attributes, they are, by definition, not human. Neanderthals had a number of physiological attributes that differed from humans, hence they were not human. That's how it works.
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RE: How to explain Neanderthals, ice age and Noah's Ark... - 10/21/2008 12:50:37 AM
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catfighter
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unclemonkey
ORIGINAL:Mrs.Xquote:
Do you think the neanderthals were around the same time as homosapiens, or do you think neanderthals were just earlier people like Adam and Eve?
Neanderthals were simply a people well adapted to the harsh conditions of an ice age.
Once the Neanderthal nuclear DNA is fully sequenced it will provide conclusive proof on whether or not they were Human.
Would you like to place a bet on the result?
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RE: How to explain Neanderthals, ice age and Noah's Ark... - 10/21/2008 1:19:50 AM
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Mrs.X
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unclemonkey
ORIGINAL:Mrs.Xquote:
Do you think the neanderthals were around the same time as homosapiens, or do you think neanderthals were just earlier people like Adam and Eve?
Neanderthals were simply a people well adapted to the harsh conditions of an ice age.
Oh OK, so you know a little about the ice age, maybe? Do you have any insight on that based on my OP? So, there was an ice age, right? Who in the Bible was living at the time, do you know? Did the ice reach the middle east where most of the Bible takes place?
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RE: How to explain Neanderthals, ice age and Noah's Ark... - 10/21/2008 2:45:15 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
I wouldn't ever try to, since I'm not an expert in the field, and neither are you. Humans as a species have certain unique physiological attributes. If a species differs in one or more of those physiological attributes, they are, by definition, not human. Neanderthals had a number of physiological attributes that differed from humans, hence they were not human. That's how it works.
Well, that would be what I am trying to get at - which specific 'physiological attributes' do you think distinguish humans from Neanderthals? I mean you are making the claim, can you back it up?
quote:
Once the Neanderthal nuclear DNA is fully sequenced it will provide conclusive proof on whether or not they were Human.
Would you like to place a bet on the result?
Actually, it is all but sequenced now, and I would challenge you to specify what genetics it has that make it 'non-human'.
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Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: How to explain Neanderthals, ice age and Noah's Ark... - 10/21/2008 7:54:37 PM
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nicole6598
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Stina in regards to the animals. The way I have heard it explain gives a few possibilites.
1. God is a supernatural God so who's not to say he fit every animal on the Ark just the way they were?
2. Who's to say that Noah took adults? He may have taken smaller baby ones, even some in eggs maybe that hatched later, like the dinosaurs, he could of taken baby ones in etc
I think answers in genesis is a good place to look at for some things like this.
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RE: How to explain Neanderthals, ice age and Noah's Ark... - 10/21/2008 8:03:34 PM
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Mrs.X
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nicole6598
Stina in regards to the animals. The way I have heard it explain gives a few possibilites.
1. God is a supernatural God so who's not to say he fit every animal on the Ark just the way they were?
2. Who's to say that Noah took adults? He may have taken smaller baby ones, even some in eggs maybe that hatched later, like the dinosaurs, he could of taken baby ones in etc
I think answers in genesis is a good place to look at for some things like this.
Oh yeah, duh! LOL! I dunno why I didn't think of that. I suppose if all the animals were babies, they'd be much smaller! Hehe, much safer to be in close quarters too.
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RE: How to explain Neanderthals, ice age and Noah's Ark... - 10/22/2008 12:49:33 AM
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RobertByers
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mrs.X
I'd also like to know for myself too. I believe every word of the Bible is the truth, of course, but I always wondered about these three things.
All the animals we have today wouldn't fit on that ark. Were more animals created by God after the flood?
Who are neanderthals? Are they the angels that came down an breeded with humans in Noah's day? Or, are they just earlier humans? Were Adam and Eve neanderthals or homo-sapiens? Or, maybe they were considered animals, not humans in those days?
How do you explain the ice age that scientists always talk about? Do scientists just think it was an ice age, but it was really the flood? Or, did the ice never reach the parts of the earth the Bible talks about and that's why it isn't mentioned in the Bible since the Middle East is fairly close to the equator?
Thanks for your insight! 
The animals went in by kinds and so just squeeze all animals into these kinds. Probably just a few. I suspect bears and dogs are the same kind. I insist marsupials and placentals are the same kinds.
Neanderthals are just early Germans and celts in Europe or other people elsewhere. As another poster said they are just robust people soon after babel in a cold world.
Creationism does address the ice age. many see it as following hard on the flood. This creationist sees it as several hundred years later in order to allow a tropical quick colonization of the world after the flood. Plus earth events to fossilize life/sediment that led to the changing of the climate and so the ice age. The ice age lasted a few hundred years and ended quickly by about 1600 B.C. or so.
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RE: How to explain Neanderthals, ice age and Noah's Ark... - 10/23/2008 1:08:16 PM
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DaveW
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There is a book (available on line I think from creationist home school sources) by Donald Wesley Patton (a geologist) called "The Biblical Flood and the Ice Epoch." It gives a good hypothesis of explaining the ice age and the flood. There are many things that only his model adequately explains.
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RE: How to explain Neanderthals, ice age and Noah's Ark... - 10/23/2008 1:14:19 PM
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Mrs.X
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Thanks, Dave. Is it a pretty easy read, or am I gonna have to Wiki every 5 minutes?
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RE: How to explain Neanderthals, ice age and Noah's Ark... - 10/24/2008 6:29:01 AM
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DaveW
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It has been almost 30 years since I read it and I have an engineering degree. It was an easy read for me; but if you do not have a technical background it might be a bit much. I do understand it was used by homeschoolers for a HS science text so it cannot be TOO bad.
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RE: How to explain Neanderthals, ice age and Noah's Ark... - 10/24/2008 11:56:38 AM
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Mrs.X
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Cool, thanks! I'll see if Amazon will let me read a few pages of it.
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RE: How to explain Neanderthals, ice age and Noah's Ark... - 10/24/2008 4:16:15 PM
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jbearmama
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AnswersInGenesis.org will answer this and MANY other questions about origins (and many other topics of interest).
Click on the GET ANSWERS button, you will get a long list of 'questions'. I love their magazine, website and videos.
ALso significant to note: using Genesis to witness to non believers OFTEN yeilds a more open mind/heart than starting with the Gospel.
AnswersInGenesis has so many resources available. (also check out EVENTS in your area. the conferences are AWESOME! I've been to 2, WAY COOL!)
MANY/MOST unbelievers 'refuse' to listen to those witnessing the Gospel because they do not believe Genesis. By giving them the scientific evidence for believing the whole Bible, it opens that door to their heart that allows the Gospel in.
I could go on for HOURS on this subject.
Also do a search on Science proves Genesis. lots of great sources there.
All reasearch should be tested against the Bible.
God has given ALL the proof anyone needs to know that He is real and true to His Word. Denying it is foolish.
(Read Romans 1:20 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:)
God Bless!
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RE: How to explain Neanderthals, ice age and Noah's Ark... - 10/24/2008 10:21:26 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
I'd also like to know for myself too. I believe every word of the Bible is the truth, of course, but I always wondered about these three things.
All the animals we have today wouldn't fit on that ark. Were more animals created by God after the flood?
The flood IMHO was regional and not worldwide. The hebrew word for earth is "erets" which is the exact same word for land and in fact is used for land 1,500 times in the bible. "Erets" is used for "country" also numerous times. There are many difficulties with the flood being worldwide starting with the fact that very few animals could survive at 29,000 feet which the ark would have to be to be higher then all the mountains. Animals would simply freeze to death.
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RE: How to explain Neanderthals, ice age and Noah's Ark... - 10/24/2008 10:30:06 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
Who are neanderthals? Are they the angels that came down an breeded with humans in Noah's day? Or, are they just earlier humans? Were Adam and Eve neanderthals or homo-sapiens? Or, maybe they were considered animals, not humans in those days?
Neanderthals may have been mutated humans who eventually died out. The "sons of God" in Noah's day mentioned in Gen 6 were probably the lineage of Seth which was what Moses had been talking about at the end of Gen 5. Since Moses gave no explanation of who the sons of God were it would make sense to refer back to Gen 5.
If the creation days were longer then 24 hours each which the hebrew word "yom" allows for then the ice age is not a problem.
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RE: How to explain Neanderthals, ice age and Noah's Ark... - 10/25/2008 8:47:11 AM
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iluvatar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: steve7150
quote:
I'd also like to know for myself too. I believe every word of the Bible is the truth, of course, but I always wondered about these three things.
All the animals we have today wouldn't fit on that ark. Were more animals created by God after the flood?
The flood IMHO was regional and not worldwide. The hebrew word for earth is "erets" which is the exact same word for land and in fact is used for land 1,500 times in the bible. "Erets" is used for "country" also numerous times. There are many difficulties with the flood being worldwide starting with the fact that very few animals could survive at 29,000 feet which the ark would have to be to be higher then all the mountains. Animals would simply freeze to death.
I also believe the flood was regional, but this is not a valid argument for that position. What you stated is the case now for conditions at 29,000' ABOVE SEA LEVEL. If the flood actually rose water levels that high, that would be sea level and the relative altitude would be 0'.
-Dan.
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Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: How to explain Neanderthals, ice age and Noah's Ark... - 10/25/2008 11:00:09 AM
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steve7150
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quote:
I also believe the flood was regional, but this is not a valid argument for that position. What you stated is the case now for conditions at 29,000' ABOVE SEA LEVEL. If the flood actually rose water levels that high, that would be sea level and the relative altitude would be 0'.
I'm not following your argument since the actual height of 29,000 feet would have to exceed Mt Everest and living things freeze to death at that height regardless of how you want to define it.
Plus the thinness of the atmosphere would also kill most animals except a few birds.
The bible says that the floodwaters exceeded the mountains of the earth (land)and after the waters receeded the mountaintops could be seen.
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RE: How to explain Neanderthals, ice age and Noah's Ark... - 10/25/2008 1:31:49 PM
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iluvatar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: steve7150
quote:
I also believe the flood was regional, but this is not a valid argument for that position. What you stated is the case now for conditions at 29,000' ABOVE SEA LEVEL. If the flood actually rose water levels that high, that would be sea level and the relative altitude would be 0'.
I'm not following your argument since the actual height of 29,000 feet would have to exceed Mt Everest and living things freeze to death at that height regardless of how you want to define it.
Plus the thinness of the atmosphere would also kill most animals except a few birds.
The bible says that the floodwaters exceeded the mountains of the earth (land)and after the waters receeded the mountaintops could be seen.
The flood water would displace the atmosphere and push all of the air upwards. Air pressure at sea level during the flood (i.e. what we consider to be an altitude of 29Kft) would be more-or-less the same as air pressure is at sea level right now.
-Dan.
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Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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