Horror Movies - Torture Porn? (Full Version)

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tafkam -> Horror Movies - Torture Porn? (10/22/2008 10:38:17 AM)

So as not to get the Scariest Movie thread off topic, I thought I'd post this here....

Somebody in that thread objected to movies like HOSTEL and SAW, calling them "torutre porn". I objected to the description since there is no porn in these films. A definition was then given:

Depicting hard-core torture scenes in order to titilate the senses...in other words, movies that show severe torture for the entertainment value of watching it.

My point of view is...there's no entertainment value to torture scenes, period.

My question: don't all horror movies do this to a degree? They all portray a level of violence as part of their entertainment value. And as such, what's the problem?

I haven't seen the SAW movies, but I have seen both HOSTEL films, and the torture was an integral part of the story. To not show it for what it was would have watered down the impact of the films.

What are other views on the more extreme horor film offerings?



Badison -> RE: Horror Movies - Torture Porn? (10/22/2008 1:46:23 PM)

quote:

and the torture was an integral part of the story. To not show it for what it was would have watered down the impact of the films.

and to not show sex would water down the impact of porn. ;)

The story in the hostel films IS the torture.



DaveW -> RE: Horror Movies - Torture Porn? (10/22/2008 1:50:10 PM)

The word "porn," short for pornography comes from the Greek pornas and graphos, and means the writings of prostitute slaves. Pornas was the name for a class of slave used for purely sexual purposes.

If horror movies do not have explicit sexual scenes or dialog, they should not be called porn.



tafkam -> RE: Horror Movies - Torture Porn? (10/22/2008 2:00:17 PM)

quote:

The story in the hostel films IS the torture.


To a degree you're right, but it's made all the more horrific once you find out who the bad guys really are. Watering down the torture scenes would have lessened that end-of-the-film punch.

Personally I found the beating scenes in PASSION OF THE CHRIST to be every bit as disturbing as what was seen in HOSTEL. But the beating was shown graphically to prove a point...why then is violence in horror movies viewed differently?



rawr.ben -> RE: Horror Movies - Torture Porn? (10/22/2008 2:45:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tafkam

My question: don't all horror movies do this to a degree? They all portray a level of violence as part of their entertainment value. And as such, what's the problem?



Not true at all.

I don't consider violence and gore to equate to horror.

Alfred Hitchcock was a MASTER at horror, but he never showed a violent scene, never showed someone being gored. Horror is not about making someone squeemish. . . it's about the fear, the suspense, the anticipation.

These "blood and gut" movies do nothing for me. They are not horror, they are just gross.

True horror does not need to show a drop of blood to make you afraid to go to sleep at night.



MrFribbles -> RE: Horror Movies - Torture Porn? (10/22/2008 3:02:22 PM)

quote:

These "blood and gut" movies do nothing for me. They are not horror, they are just gross.

True horror does not need to show a drop of blood to make you afraid to go to sleep at night.


Amen to that. I'm always distrustful of a movie where it's main draw is "What new ways will this movie show people dying?"
Now, I would say that I don't think including bloody violence automatically makes it bad. Alien has a very effective use, in my opinion, of a bloody death right near the start. But the entire movie doesn't rotate around that event, and ultimately, though it would have made it a less memorable movie, it could have worked without it.



tafkam -> RE: Horror Movies - Torture Porn? (10/22/2008 3:13:31 PM)

quote:

Alfred Hitchcock was a MASTER at horror, but he never showed a violent scene, never showed someone being gored.


Oh, I don't know about that. The shower scene in PSYCHO, while tame by today's standards, was considered really pushing the envelope for it's time.

quote:

Alien has a very effective use, in my opinion, of a bloody death right near the start. But the entire movie doesn't rotate around that event, and ultimately, though it would have made it a less memorable movie, it could have worked without it.


If I may borrow a tired cliche', that scene was crucial to the integrity of the film. Likewise, the torture scenes in HOSTEL were crucial to the story being told (and if you go back and watch the film, they only make up a small percentage of the screen time. Would HOSTEL's story been as effective without the torture scenes?

What about DAWN OF THE DEAD and it's depictions of cannibalism?

Why are we so put off by graphic depictions of violence? I've seen implied violence that was just as disturbing...so why is it okay if it's not shown , but somehow crosses a line if it is shown?



uncabeeil -> RE: Horror Movies - Torture Porn? (10/22/2008 3:30:30 PM)

quote:

Alfred Hitchcock was a MASTER at horror
Actually, Hitchcock was a master of suspense.

Horror = obvious violence/monsters/. Suspense = inferred violence. Even in Psycho, we never really see anybody get stabbed. We see the shower, the knife, and the blood. No on screen violence. Rear Window was one of his best, but we never see the guy actually kill his wife. The Birds probably comes closest to a horror flick from Hitchcock.

Of course all that is just my opinion. There's an outside chance I could be mistaken. [:)]



Jhud -> RE: Horror Movies - Torture Porn? (10/22/2008 6:23:40 PM)

quote:

The word "porn," short for pornography comes from the Greek pornas and graphos, and means the writings of prostitute slaves. Pornas was the name for a class of slave used for purely sexual purposes.

If horror movies do not have explicit sexual scenes or dialog, they should not be called porn.


I think it is used in the sense that violence is an end rather than a means of telling a story, much as sex is an end rather than means of telling a story in pornography. A story may include references to sex and not be considered pornography, but if it's primary purpose is to display sexual images to excite a viewer, then it probably falls into that category - and it would seem some people are excited by images of violence and torture, and in much the same way pornography does, these movies exist primarilly to show such images.



9drtr -> RE: Horror Movies - Torture Porn? (10/22/2008 6:35:03 PM)

Horror isn't about violence, it isn't about torture, it's about fear. What really impresses me is scaring me without grossing me out.



MrFribbles -> RE: Horror Movies - Torture Porn? (10/22/2008 11:54:51 PM)

quote:

Horror isn't about violence, it isn't about torture, it's about fear. What really impresses me is scaring me without grossing me out.


I agree. If the only reason you're "scared" is because you're repulsed, then there's no real fear going on. It's shoddy horror. It's our generation's B-movies - nobody was scared by the man in the rubber suit, but they'd never seen anything like it before, so it repulsed them. It gave them a scare, but not a scare that was really worth anything. It's like a soap opera - sure, there's drama, but it's so contrived that nobody who can discern good quality can find any real enjoyment out of it, except in a vain hope the whole thing has been satire all along.



rawr.ben -> RE: Horror Movies - Torture Porn? (10/23/2008 12:08:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: uncabeeil

quote:

Alfred Hitchcock was a MASTER at horror
Actually, Hitchcock was a master of suspense.

Horror = obvious violence/monsters/. Suspense = inferred violence. Even in Psycho, we never really see anybody get stabbed. We see the shower, the knife, and the blood. No on screen violence. Rear Window was one of his best, but we never see the guy actually kill his wife. The Birds probably comes closest to a horror flick from Hitchcock.

Of course all that is just my opinion. There's an outside chance I could be mistaken. [:)]


No, I see what you're saying, but I would consider "suspense" to be a crucial aspect to "horror," and I feel that Hitchcock brought it all together.

I define horror essentially as something that makes you scared that whatever you just saw could happen to you, and I am just repulsed by nothing but gore. It's just a cop-out way of scaring people, IMO.



rawr.ben -> RE: Horror Movies - Torture Porn? (10/23/2008 12:11:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tafkam


If I may borrow a tired cliche', that scene was crucial to the integrity of the film. Likewise, the torture scenes in HOSTEL were crucial to the story being told (and if you go back and watch the film, they only make up a small percentage of the screen time. Would HOSTEL's story been as effective without the torture scenes?


But HOSTEL was just a story that shouldn't have been written in the first place. It showed no class, just explicit violence. It replaced "integrity" with a quick-fix of grossing you out with gore.

quote:


Why are we so put off by graphic depictions of violence? I've seen implied violence that was just as disturbing...so why is it okay if it's not shown , but somehow crosses a line if it is shown?


A skilled filmaker does not need to show utterly cruel and disgusting violence in order to convey the effect of fear.

To me, it's about class and skill and a general sense of decency.



everythingat -> RE: Horror Movies - Torture Porn? (10/23/2008 4:22:09 AM)

You guys do realize there are sub-genres to horror, right?

I get the feeling no one that's posted here really knows very much about horror.



tafkam -> RE: Horror Movies - Torture Porn? (10/23/2008 9:23:41 AM)

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But HOSTEL was just a story that shouldn't have been written in the first place.


Why not? I personally thought it was quite an original twist on the standard horror film? Did you even see the movie?

quote:

A skilled filmaker does not need to show utterly cruel and disgusting violence in order to convey the effect of fear.


Ever seen the original DAWN OF THE DEAD? Once of the most violent and graphic horror films of our time, but considered a classic by most horror fans...

quote:

You guys do realize there are sub-genres to horror, right?

I get the feeling no one that's posted here really knows very much about horror.


I agree...there is so much that falls under the umbrella of the horror film...



MrFribbles -> RE: Horror Movies - Torture Porn? (10/23/2008 10:53:45 AM)

quote:

You guys do realize there are sub-genres to horror, right?


Sure. But that doesn't mean all those sub-genres are respectable.

quote:

I get the feeling no one that's posted here really knows very much about horror.


I get the feeling that you can't respect someone who disagrees with you, so you make assumptions about their knowledge.



tafkam -> RE: Horror Movies - Torture Porn? (10/23/2008 11:17:13 AM)

quote:

Sure. But that doesn't mean all those sub-genres are respectable.


But unfortunately, your opinion doesn't apply to everybody...I for one make no apologies for finding a film like HOSTEL to be an original, unique, and even (gasp!) entertaining entry in the horror genre...



MrFribbles -> RE: Horror Movies - Torture Porn? (10/23/2008 11:30:39 AM)

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But unfortunately, your opinion doesn't apply to everybody


Everyone is entitled to have and hold to their opinion.
Some people hold to the opinion that soap operas are the height of televised entertainment.
Some people hold to the opinion that The Fast and the Furious series are high-quality films, deserving repeated viewings.
Some people hold to the opinion that There Will Be Blood was a terrible movie because it was boring.
And, obviously, some people hold to the opinion that movies whose entire draw is nothing but prolonged graphic violence are solid quality entertainment.
I've met people who hold all these opinions.
And whoever may hold these opinions have every right to do so. I would never suggest otherwise. But that doesn't mean I have to think they are good ones to hold on to.



tafkam -> RE: Horror Movies - Torture Porn? (10/23/2008 11:42:28 AM)

quote:

And, obviously, some people hold to the opinion that movies whose entire draw is nothing but prolonged graphic violence are solid quality entertainment.


I hate to burst your stereotyping, but the violence in HOSTEL was not the "entire draw" of the film for me. I was in fact quite taken with the story, characters, etc, and involved in that far beyond the graphic scenes....



rawr.ben -> RE: Horror Movies - Torture Porn? (10/23/2008 11:53:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tafkam

quote:

And, obviously, some people hold to the opinion that movies whose entire draw is nothing but prolonged graphic violence are solid quality entertainment.


I hate to burst your stereotyping, but the violence in HOSTEL was not the "entire draw" of the film for me. I was in fact quite taken with the story, characters, etc, and involved in that far beyond the graphic scenes....


I was too distracted by the graphic scenes to notice a story and characters. ..



everythingat -> RE: Horror Movies - Torture Porn? (10/23/2008 11:59:52 AM)

And by saying that, don't you fall into the same assumption you were accusing me of, MrFribbles?

I respect people I disagree with. However, in this case...there's not enough information or knowledge presented to have a valid opinion to respect. Although, at the time that I posted that...I forgot about your posts, Fribbles. You're alright. I think there's lack of knowledge if a person thinks that the entire point of the horror genre is to scare you. Which is why I brought up the sub-genres. Like Shaun of the Dead. Scary? No. Funny? Yes. Comedy horror. Or on a lower denominator...Dead & Breakfast, Feast, and 2001 Maniacs. All horror movies from this decade...all not meant to invoke fear.

It is possible for a horror film to be scary and repulsive at the same time. Like the original Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Which is probably the first "torture porn"...aka, survival horror. Or the remake of The Thing. Also terrifying and disgusting at the same time.

There's Suspiria. Very frightening, and the only horror movie I've seen that made murder look artistically beautiful. Those colors and the cinematography...terrific.

There's a misunderstanding if you think I'm defending Hostel. I think Eli Roth is an awful director, and Hostel was no masterpiece. Come on...can't expect much from the guy who made Cabin Fever. I'm only defending its right to be what it was. It's survival horror, meant to keep you in suspense...but not meant to make you have trouble sleeping. It didn't demand class, so it doesn't have class.



uncabeeil -> RE: Horror Movies - Torture Porn? (10/23/2008 12:25:36 PM)

quote:

I get the feeling no one that's posted here really knows very much about horror.
That's a pretty big assumption. If you're so knowledgeable, why don't you educate us poor ignorant unintelligent drones?



small_creation -> RE: Horror Movies - Torture Porn? (10/23/2008 12:50:55 PM)

Goodness! I'm sorry the term "torture porn" was ever typed. What are you fighting about, people??

This whole discussion is giving me a tortuous headache!

j



tafkam -> RE: Horror Movies - Torture Porn? (10/23/2008 1:26:41 PM)

quote:

Goodness! I'm sorry the term "torture porn" was ever typed. What are you fighting about, people??


Um, perhaps because it's a DISCUSSION board, where things are actually DISCUSSED.

If you don't like the conversation, you are free not to participate. Simpe enough, problem solved...

Glad to see someone else bring up THE THING, which did manage to repulse and terrify at the same time.....or better yet, TEXAS CHAINSAW, the great grandfather of films like HOSTEL...



MrFribbles -> RE: Horror Movies - Torture Porn? (10/23/2008 4:28:54 PM)

quote:

It is possible for a horror film to be scary and repulsive at the same time.


I quite agree. I just dislike movies that repulse, but never scare. And even then, it's another thing entirely if there's a purpose behind it. Some movies may repulse in an over-the-top fashion to make a point (usually as a parody of the genre). But if a movie repulses for the sake of repulsing, then it falls in to the category of the cheap B-movies of back in the day.



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