RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (Full Version)

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OleFitzHi -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (11/29/2008 9:26:01 PM)

Hard to say what they all teach. There is no unified Charismatic doctrine because there is no umbrella organization like the Southern Baptist Conference that states the doctrine.

Most embrace speaking in tongues as do most Pentecostal and Holiness groups. I've never experienced it, but it is in the Bible.

Many embrace the false prosperity gospel, but not all.

Many believe in prophecy for today. But a modified sort. More like an opinion-style prophecy. I hold this with high suspicion because it is so much abused.

You have every right to be suspicious, but in my dealings they seem to have a love for God and an exuberance for worship that is absent in many other congregations. We could use a little of that.




quote:

ORIGINAL: Limulus

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way

That's a rather limited perspective on Charismatics . .



Do all Charismatic churches teach the following?

-speaking in tongues is for today? if so, why did this startup again in the early 1900's but wasnt seen before that since about 70AD

-gospel of prosperity

-modern day prophecy and revelation, not just what is revealed in the bible

If they do, then I am very leery of all Charismatic churches. There is already quite a few posts on this forum debating those issues, so I don't need to post them again.



Child4Jesus -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (11/30/2008 3:34:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
While I certainly encourage you to respond to God's convction, where in Scripture does it say we can or should not see angels?


It's not a matter of that. It's when people make a big deal out of it more than they should. It leads to angel worship and people expect to see angels all the time. Getting worked up emotionally and thinking it is a move of God.



rcjames -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (11/30/2008 10:25:49 AM)

Can folks see angels? The Scriptures have a few examples, and Paul tells us this;

(Heb 13:2) Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

So yea, since I believe the Bible, I believe in Angels.

Now are there some phoney baloney macoroni and cheese pink caddilac shysters out there that claim to see angels when they don't; absolutely.

But that does not negate the real thing.



Thanks
RC



blessedinnyc -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (11/30/2008 2:07:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Limulus

The original post was about Charismatics and seeing angels. If they are seeing these angels, are they of God?

I think that Christianity is best able to conform to sound doctrine- and we have the best ability to correct bad doctrine- when we practice it in the light of reason.

Does it make a whole lot of logical sense that angels would come and visit and only be visible to a few people? Would other people who cannot see these angels still be able to accidentally bump into their physical bodies or at least notice something when they walked through that space? If not, how could two things occupy the same place at the same time?

I am not prepared for a doctrinal debate on Charismatics, but I think most reasonable people are prepared for a logical debate on them. Miracles certainly occur, but God does not break the laws of space-time; two physical objects cannot occupy the same space.

When our faith defies logic, we should at least get some sort of back-up from the scripture. Scripture provides none, really, for certain people seeing angels and others not seeing them in a crowded room, and angels are rarely there unless there's a very important scripture-level event going on.



blessedinnyc -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (11/30/2008 2:14:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

Now are there some phoney baloney macoroni and cheese pink caddilac shysters out there that claim to see angels when they don't; absolutely.

What about people who hallucinate? Say a Christian takes some LSD and sees something others might call pink fairies, but instead, interprets them as angels.

In other words, if a Christian sees angels, is it possible that they are hallucinating? More importantly, how come they are the only one who sees the angel? And if I walk through the space they are standing in, does the angel disappear or do I disappear?

Or at the very least, if two people see an angel, I should be able to ask one where that angel is standing and then get the same independent answer from another person. If I can't get them to agree on where the angel is standing, they may be hallucinating.

I don't think there are a lot of cases in the Bible where one or two people see angels but the vast majority of Christians are unable to see them. There also appears to be a serious (although not total) decline in the number of miraculous events after the Canon closed.



colliefan -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (11/30/2008 2:52:47 PM)

Col 2:17 - 19 (ESV) 17These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. 18Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions,£ puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, 19and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.

Describes the Lakeland fiasco and other emotion-driven events



rawr.ben -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (11/30/2008 4:35:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc

quote:

ORIGINAL: Limulus



Does it make a whole lot of logical sense that angels would come and visit and only be visible to a few people? Would other people who cannot see these angels still be able to accidentally bump into their physical bodies or at least notice something when they walked through that space? If not, how could two things occupy the same place at the same time?


I am not defending the angels that this church claims, however, given that we don't really understand the nature of angels, I would say these questions are not fully applicable.

In response to two objects occupying the same place, did Jesus walk through a wall when he visited the disciples? (John 20:19). This would seem to signify that a physical being doesn't have to be limited to our human understanding of physical laws.

quote:


Miracles certainly occur, but God does not break the laws of space-time; two physical objects cannot occupy the same space.


Curious if you have scientific backup for the claim? I know that objects act very strange when you break them down to their smallest forms. They have broken down atoms into tiny parts, and have seen these tiny parts co-exist in two places at once, which was once thought impossible too. I would imagine this may be a possibility, too.

What about anti-matter?

I mean, I'm no string-theorist, but I would say there is a lot of weird things out there beyond on science.

quote:


When our faith defies logic, we should at least get some sort of back-up from the scripture. Scripture provides none, really, for certain people seeing angels and others not seeing them in a crowded room, and angels are rarely there unless there's a very important scripture-level event going on.


*shrugs*



rcjames -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (11/30/2008 5:17:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
What about people who hallucinate? Say a Christian takes some LSD and sees something others might call pink fairies, but instead, interprets them as angels.


I cannot imagine a true Christian taking illegal drugs.

But even hallucinations do not negate the Scriputral evidence of Angels; so therefore Angels do exist or else Scripture is not true.

Thanks
RC



blessedinnyc -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (11/30/2008 7:49:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames
I cannot imagine a true Christian taking illegal drugs.

But even hallucinations do not negate the Scriputral evidence of Angels; so therefore Angels do exist or else Scripture is not true.

Thanks
RC

Angels do exist, but I would probably put the odds of a church actually getting visited by an angel at, perhaps 1 in 10,000,000. The odds of a church having a member that hallucinates (or multiple church members that go along and hallucinate) and sees angels is probably 1 in 10.

So if members of your church see angels, the odds are roughly 1 in 1,000,000 that they actually saw one.



rawr.ben -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (11/30/2008 7:51:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames
I cannot imagine a true Christian taking illegal drugs.

But even hallucinations do not negate the Scriputral evidence of Angels; so therefore Angels do exist or else Scripture is not true.

Thanks
RC

Angels do exist, but I would probably put the odds of a church actually getting visited by an angel at, perhaps 1 in 10,000,000. The odds of a church having a member that hallucinates (or multiple church members that go along and hallucinate) and sees angels is probably 1 in 10.

So if members of your church see angels, the odds are roughly 1 in 1,000,000 that they actually saw one.


Wow.

Incredible made-up statistics to support your asinine claim! Awesome!



blessedinnyc -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (11/30/2008 7:57:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way

Wow.

Incredible made-up statistics to support your asinine claim! Awesome!

What's asinine is the fact that millions of people hallucinate every day and see daisies, springs of water in the desert, and believe that the marines are out to get them or that people are going to touch them and turn them into a newt. And I'm sure there are people who hallucinate and see angels.

I've never even heard of an event when two people see angels and independently say they are standing in the exact same spot, so it would appear that these visitations are probably pretty rare. (Though not impossible.)



StephK -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (11/30/2008 8:00:12 PM)

Oh come on y'all, with the Todd Bentley/Lakeland false revival stuff that went on just this past summer it is possible that the angels being seen were not of God. Discernment is also a spiritual gift and it just might be possible that the OP was given some regarding the particular things going on in his Bible study and that church.



rawr.ben -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (11/30/2008 8:03:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way

Wow.

Incredible made-up statistics to support your asinine claim! Awesome!

What's asinine is the fact that millions of people hallucinate every day and see daisies, springs of water in the desert, and believe that the marines are out to get them or that people are going to touch them and turn them into a newt. And I'm sure there are people who hallucinate and see angels.

I've never even heard of an event when two people see angels and independently say they are standing in the exact same spot, so it would appear that these visitations are probably pretty rare. (Though not impossible.)


I agree that a real visitation is probably rare, but 1 in 10 church members will hallucinate and be convinced they saw an angel? Cmon, man.

And I know well the world of "hallucinations" as I suffer from delusions. But I am still able to recognize when it is a delusion and when it is not (after the episode, usually).

The problem is discernment, not LSD.



blessedinnyc -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (11/30/2008 8:25:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way

I agree that a real visitation is probably rare, but 1 in 10 church members will hallucinate and be convinced they saw an angel? Cmon, man.

I really think that a real visitation is rare to the point that maybe only one or two might be made to Christians throughout the entire world in a given year- at most. If it happened more often, the scientific community would be all over this. The odds of you or your church getting a true visitation are probably pretty rare.

quote:

The problem is discernment, not LSD.

And logic needs to be one of the biggest components of discernment, second only to scripture. If something that happens to us defies logic, it probably didn't happen.

The next time you have an experience, see if anyone else had it. If so, see if there is a way to get the details of their experience (without inadvertently feeding them the details of yours) and then compare it with your experience. If the angel was standing in the center aisle but your brother-in-christ saw him sitting in one of the back pews, maybe it didn't really happen.



rawr.ben -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (11/30/2008 8:29:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc

And logic needs to be one of the biggest components of discernment, second only to scripture. If something that happens to us defies logic, it probably didn't happen.

The next time you have an experience, see if anyone else had it. If so, see if there is a way to get the details of their experience (without inadvertently feeding them the details of yours) and then compare it with your experience. If the angel was standing in the center aisle but your brother-in-christ saw him sitting in one of the back pews, maybe it didn't really happen.


Perhaps the problem is . . . angels are spiritual beings and defy your earthly logic.



blessedinnyc -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (11/30/2008 8:40:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Perhaps the problem is . . . angels are spiritual beings and defy your earthly logic.

Yes, but if angels are to be seen and understood by earthly beings, God needs to obey this earthly logic.

If God gave us the Bible but wrote it in a language we couldn't understand, what good would that do us? In the same way that God speaks human languages when giving his message to humans, he must obey the finite logic of us human beings when he interacts with us if these interactions are to have any effect on us.

Can he expect us to see invisible angels? Can an angel have an atomic condition that is set to two different values at the same time?



rawr.ben -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (11/30/2008 8:44:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc


Yes, but if angels are to be seen and understood by earthly beings, God needs to obey this earthly logic.

If God gave us the Bible but wrote it in a language we couldn't understand, what good would that do us? In the same way that God speaks human languages when giving his message to humans, he must obey the finite logic of us human beings when he interacts with us if these interactions are to have any effect on us.


There are plenty of interactions that don't really make sense, and yet dramatically affect creation. Atonement, for one. How does it work? What part of God, dying by man's hands, makes a way for me to not burn for an eternity? Explain to me the metaphysics of that little wonder.

quote:


Can he expect us to see invisible angels? Can an angel have an atomic condition that is set to two different values at the same time?


What makes you think an angel HAS an atomic condition?



blessedinnyc -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (11/30/2008 8:49:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
There are plenty of interactions that don't really make sense, and yet dramatically affect creation. Atonement, for one. How does it work? What part of God, dying by man's hands, makes a way for me to not burn for an eternity? Explain to me the metaphysics of that little wonder.

We don't understand the mechanics of it, but it does seem reasonable. If you are suing someone for damage they have done to you but decide to drop the lawsuit because you forgive them, that costs you a lot of money.

In any case, though, things that God has us observe as really being there need to make logical sense. Maybe we don't necessarily understand the meaning of what we see (as was the case with Pharaoh having visions), but what we see should obey logic. Something cannot NOT be in one place AND be in that place at the same time.

quote:

What makes you think an angel HAS an atomic condition?

An angel is either in the room or he is not in the room. He cannot be both IN the room AND completely absent from the room at the same time.



rawr.ben -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (11/30/2008 8:53:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc


An angel is either in the room or he is not in the room. He cannot be both IN the room AND completely absent from the room at the same time.


My point is . . . "atomic condition" presupposes that something HAS atoms to begin with, and thus you are trying to compute how an angel works based upon atomic physics.

But, if an angel is purely spiritual . . . does your physics really apply?



blessedinnyc -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (11/30/2008 8:55:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
My point is . . . "atomic condition" presupposes that something HAS atoms to begin with, and thus you are trying to compute how an angel works based upon atomic physics.

But, if an angel is purely spiritual . . . does your physics really apply?

Sorry, I meant to be discussing "atomic" in terms of information theory- something has a characteristic that can only be one thing at a given time. A car can't be painted entirely blue and entirely green at the same time; its 50.1%+ color is an atomic condition.

So the real question is whether angels obey information theory. If angels do not obey information theory, then certainly God does not need to obey it. If that is the case, God can lie.

So I believe that angels and God do obey information theory. And thus, their atomic characteristics can only be set to one value at a time.



colliefan -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (11/30/2008 11:13:51 PM)

The Book of Hebrews says that many have "entertained angels unaware." Contary to bad teachings presented in shows such as "Touched by an Angel". they don't magically transform themselves to reveal themselves as on a mission from God. There is good reason the Holy Writ uses the term "unaware."



phosadaud -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (11/30/2008 11:40:56 PM)

While it is true that we must ALWAYS use discernment, it is also true that angels have and continue to do the work of the Lord and sometimes they have revealed themselves. I think we need to be cautious that we don't become so cynical and closed off to how God may work, that we use that as an excuse to reject a work of the Lord. Think back to the nativity. Maybe angels appeared to many folks, but the shepherds in the fields were the only ones who were paying attention? Can you imagine missing that event in history for no other reason than you had determined something was so rare it simply couldn't happen and rejected any attempt God made to do something miraculous in your life? Or missing that event in history because you were so certain that satan was busier than God so they ONLY way an angel would ever come to you is because it was evil?

I'm not arguing to believe everything you hear. Discernment is critical. That being said, angels ARE real, they ARE used at times by God to interact with us here on earth - known and unknown, and God isn't beholden to any law of science that HE created so it doesn't have to make sense or pass a scientific test to be "real".



greatdivide46 -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/1/2008 7:28:08 AM)

I think more people see angels than we think. I just don't think they recognize them as angels. I just can't see angels, if they visit earth at all, advertising the fact that they are angels -- Touched by an Angel notwithstanding. [:)]



blessedinnyc -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/1/2008 11:57:23 AM)

Nobody is denying that angels exist and may occasionally pop up unnoticed on earth. The question is whether they show up and start flapping their wings in the midst of a pentecostal church service, but are only visible to a worshipper or two.

What are these angels' purpose in these worship services? Is it possible that in a worship service where people are speaking in tongues and others are falling on the floor in convulsions, people might start seeing angels (or at least start seeing stars as they fall to the ground)?



rawr.ben -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/1/2008 1:31:30 PM)

Maybe another question is: are people seeing angels with their physical eyes?

Or are they seen with "spiritual" eyes?

Is there such a thing?



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