RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (Full Version)

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phosadaud -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/1/2008 3:26:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc

Nobody is denying that angels exist and may occasionally pop up unnoticed on earth. The question is whether they show up and start flapping their wings in the midst of a pentecostal church service, but are only visible to a worshipper or two.

What are these angels' purpose in these worship services? Is it possible that in a worship service where people are speaking in tongues and others are falling on the floor in convulsions, people might start seeing angels (or at least start seeing stars as they fall to the ground)?


I have absolutely no idea. That's my only point. [;)]



blessedinnyc -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/1/2008 3:37:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way

Maybe another question is: are people seeing angels with their physical eyes?

Or are they seen with "spiritual" eyes?

Is there such a thing?

Do your "spiritual" eyes tell you the angel is in the *physical* room? If so, then you are saying the spiritual angel is physically in the room. Now the only question is what physical place is the angel standing in, whether anyone else sees it, and if they see it standing in the same location.

If you are having visions of far-off angels, though, that is something else. The question is what sort of visions they are, whether those visions mean something specific, and whether that meaning is congruent with scripture. If you can't say that they mean something specific and that the meaning conforms to good doctrine, you may want to visit your optometrist.

I don't want to be a party-pooper and deny the possibility of spiritual gifts in the post-canon times, and I certainly don't deny angels or miracles, but the odds of actually seeing an angel and being able to know that it is an angel are so extraordinary that it probably requires extraordinary evidence- like someone else seeing it and having the details be the same.



MrFribbles -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/1/2008 4:28:18 PM)

quote:

the odds of actually seeing an angel and being able to know that it is an angel are so extraordinary that it probably requires extraordinary evidence


Or extraordinary faith. : )



blessedinnyc -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/1/2008 5:27:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Or extraordinary faith. : )

Well, the difference between being faithful and overly-trusting is that faith is rooted in reason.

So it's not really faith if it vaporizes under the light of reason. The odds of you getting visted by an angel are infinitessimal, because there are many more faithful Christians than you. There are people in Somalia that have been tried by wars, famines, and religious oppression, and they have had more opportunities to develop faith in God than any of us have had. So we are not first in line to get visited by angels. Our best hope is that these visitations, therefore, are entirely random if we want to see an angel.

At some point, if these visitations become too common- if they start visiting more than a couple Christians a year in the Western world, the scientific community will start taking notice. It obviously hasn't, so the number of times that angels have visited isn't all that high.

So again:

1.) faith is rooted in reason. If you can't justify a view in light of scripture and common sense, it's not faith.
2.) There are people who are more faithful then you, and it is unlikely that you, personally, will be visited by angels with flapping wings- though not entirely impossible.
3.) Thus, since you have extraordinary faith, it makes sense to seek extraordinary evidence when an extraordinary event happens. No amount of evidence will be able to prove what happens, but you ought to need at least a little reason to believe something.



RJR_fan -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/1/2008 6:04:03 PM)

quote:

The question is whether they show up and start flapping their wings in the midst of a pentecostal church service, but are only visible to a worshipper or two.


When those kids in Yugoslavia claimed to be seeing the BVM, their eyes tracked, in unison, after some object invisible to the other observers. Just because you see it doesn't mean it's from God!



MrFribbles -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/1/2008 6:27:39 PM)

quote:

There are people who are more faithful then you, and it is unlikely that you, personally, will be visited by angels with flapping wings- though not entirely impossible.


Since when was angel visitation based on our level of faith? I thought it was based on God's decision to send them to us, for His purposes, and ultimately for His glory.



blessedinnyc -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/1/2008 11:17:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

Since when was angel visitation based on our level of faith? I thought it was based on God's decision to send them to us, for His purposes, and ultimately for His glory.

Exactly, so God's decision to send an angel to you is an extremely rare decision and entirely uncorrelated with any given knowledge that us humans have.

Thus, it must be a random event. There can't be more than a few angel visits a year without the scientific community catching on, and there are millions (perhaps billions) of Christians to visit so thus, for all intensive purposes, the odds of YOU getting visited by an angel are on the order of your odds of winning the lottery.



DaveW -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/2/2008 1:09:17 PM)

There was a camp owned by the Evangelical United Brethern church (now part of United Methodist) that my mom attended as a young (late teen) woman. It was certainly not charismatic or pentecostal at all. They may have even been opposed to such things. There was a concrete vesper bowl on the water front with the St Joseph River (Buchanan MI) and while she was there several campers there saw angels out on the water during prayer times.

Seeing an angel is not necessarily a charismatic thing.



OLEEguacamole -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/2/2008 1:13:40 PM)

well apparently, it's a lot like the lottery.



raivyne -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/2/2008 2:26:24 PM)

If you don't believe modern day people can see angels ever or often, then you'll probably never see an angel.

Personally, I believe God can and will send an angel when he sees fit and I don't care to put a number on it.

I saw no proof from the OP that was indicative of a false doctrine or that the angels were from satan. All I saw was that he was not suited to the Charismatic movement (or at least that church). Unfortunately he chose to glean from his (apparently) limited knowledge that the Charismatic movement was somehow false. Which is understandably offensive to Charismatics, myself included.



phosadaud -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/2/2008 3:36:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: raivyne
Personally, I believe God can and will send an angel when he sees fit and I don't care to put a number on it.


Exactly! [;)]



blessedinnyc -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/2/2008 4:24:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: raivyne

If you don't believe modern day people can see angels ever or often, then you'll probably never see an angel.

If I see an angel, I will try to visit my optometrist and prayerfully consider if it was real at the same time. If I need new glasses, that will probably explain things.

quote:

Personally, I believe God can and will send an angel when he sees fit and I don't care to put a number on it.

Oh, absolutely. And when he sends more than a few angels a year, the scientific community will start taking note. Simple propositional proof:

(God sends more than a few angels a year)-->(We start reading about it in scientific journals)
By Modus Tollens:
~(We start reading about angels in scientific journals)-->~(God sends more than a few angels a year)

Thus, because we do not read about angels in scientific journals, it is unlikely that God performs this miracle anywhere near as often as the occasional medical miracles that do make it into scientific journals.

quote:

I saw no proof from the OP that was indicative of a false doctrine or that the angels were from satan. All I saw was that he was not suited to the Charismatic movement (or at least that church). Unfortunately he chose to glean from his (apparently) limited knowledge that the Charismatic movement was somehow false. Which is understandably offensive to Charismatics, myself included.

The Charismatic movement is only false to the extent that it denies or bends reason and scripture. Given how rare angelic visits tend to be these days, it seems reasonable that he would demand at least a little evidence.



raivyne -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/2/2008 4:50:07 PM)

If I saw an angel the last people I would tell about it would be the scientific community. I don't need the scientific community to verify what I already know. I doubt people seeing angels are running to news outlets and research facilities. Why go to people who don't understand and tell them you saw an angel? So, you can be ridiculed, called crazy or laughed at? No thanks. If I see an angel, I'll know what I've seen. What God sent to me personally. I don't need to shout from the rooftops so that everyone else knows too.

That is your opinion on the Charismatic movement. To each his or her own. I've seen nothing that twists scripture in my church thank you very much.

I don't know about you, but I don't require tangible evidence that angels exist. All the evidence I need is in the Bible. Just because you don't hear about them every time you turn around, doesn't mean they do not exist and do not appear to people on a regular basis.

I have FAITH that God can have his angels appear anywhere and anytime he darn well pleases thank you very much. Just because modern society is so hung up on "seeing is believing" doesn't mean I have to be too. If a Christian tells me he or she's seen an angel I'll praise the Lord just the same as if I saw one myself.



blessedinnyc -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/2/2008 5:05:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: raivyne
That is your opinion on the Charismatic movement. I don't know about you, but I don't require tangible evidence that angels exist. All the evidence I need is in the Bible. Just because you don't hear about them every time you turn around, doesn't mean they do not exist and do not appear to people on a regular basis.

I don't require tangible evidence that angels exist. I do need some sort of evidence to believe that I have actually SEEN an angel, because it is more likely that I am hallucinating than it is that I have seen something real.

quote:

I have FAITH that God can have his angels appear anywhere and anytime he darn well pleases thank you very much.

Same here. But there is a difference between "can have his angels appear anywhere he darned well pleases" and "has his angels show up to random church events on a regular basis."

quote:

Just because modern society is so hung up on "seeing is believing" doesn't mean I have to be too.

Look, this isn't a modern society thing, and Jesus didn't fault Thomas. In fact, he chose to demonstrate that faith does come with a healthy dose of reason.

quote:

If a Christian tells me he or she's seen an angel I'll praise the Lord just the same as if I saw one myself.

What if a Christian tells you he was drugged, carried to Arkansas, and married to a woman he grew up with in high school, but now she got a restraining order on him? (As has happened to me, although many of the facts besides the marriage are changed.) I am not necessarily going to start doubting you, but I'm going to have a lot of questions. IE: did you call up the county registrar and ask if there is a marriage record?

Seeing an angel certainly is possible, but the odds of ME or YOU sighting one are so ridiculous that it should be natural to ask a lot of questions about said event. It certainly IS possible that you could start floating around the room when you pray, but it is natural to ask questions about that, too. It certainly IS possible that you could be drugged and taken to Tennessee where you are married to a high-school sweetheart who then takes out a restraining order on you (I am sure something like that happens every once in a while somewhere in the world), but it is natural to ask a lot of questions about it.

I do not want to ruin anyone's experience, but I do think it makes sense to ask if other people are seeing an angel the next time you see one, and then ask them where it is in the room and what its purpose is. If you all can't answer that question roughly the same and independently, and have a rational, scriptural reason the angel is there, maybe you're not seeing an angel.



Child4Jesus -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/2/2008 6:10:37 PM)

The fact of the matter for me when it comes to these things I would question said person as to what was going on around them. What did the angel look like? If they say, "White robe with wings," I would question even further as to why it is the angel just happens to look like angel's in comics, books, and movies?



OLEEguacamole -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/2/2008 6:18:16 PM)

it's all about odds.



blessedinnyc -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/2/2008 7:09:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OLEEguacamole

it's all about odds.

Well, if it wasn't about "odds"- if probability analysis didn't come into the picture and a visit from an angel was a sure thing for us- we would know what was on the mind of God.

So either you are omniscient, or probability is a valid way to discuss the chance of you getting visited by an angel.



OLEEguacamole -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/2/2008 7:31:39 PM)

no probability infers randomness not intention.



blessedinnyc -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/2/2008 8:41:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OLEEguacamole

no probability infers randomness not intention.

Say that a company is laying off 10% of its employees. I can say that the average employee at that firm has a 1 in 10 chance of getting laid off. Naturally, the firm's CEO may have certain intentions about what businesses to cut and what to keep, and maybe even who to lay off- but I am not able to read the CEO's mind.

If, out of 300,000,000 Christians, 3 will be visited by angels, then I can say that the average Christian has a 1 in 100,000,000 chance of being visited by an angel. God may have intentions of exactly who to send angels to, but I cannot read God's mind.



OLEEguacamole -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/2/2008 9:06:34 PM)

or you can leave math out of it and consider God to be sovereign and purposeful.



phosadaud -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/2/2008 10:54:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OLEEguacamole

or you can leave math out of it and consider God to be sovereign and purposeful.

[sm=thumbsup.gif]

Wonder what the odds were that a Virgin would conceive and when she gave birth, she would have to lay the Son of God in an animal feeding trough?



colliefan -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/2/2008 11:01:33 PM)

The following is from Nave's Topical Bible lists the verses regarding the Ministering Spirt of Angels

Ministrant to the righteous
Gen 16:7; Gen 24:7; Gen 24:40; Ex 32:34; Ex 23:20; Ex 23:23; Ex 33:2; Num 20:16; 1 Kin 19:5-8; 2 Chr 18:18; Psa 34:7; Psa 68:17; 2 Kin 6:17; Psa 91:11-12; Matt 4:6; Luke 4:10-11; Psa 104:4; Eccl 5:6; Isa 63:9; Dan 6:22; Dan 7:10; Luke 16:22; John 1:51; John 5:4; Acts 5:19-20; Acts 10:3-6; Acts 12:7-10; Heb 1:7; Heb 1:14; Heb 13:2



blessedinnyc -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/3/2008 1:18:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OLEEguacamole

or you can leave math out of it and consider God to be sovereign and purposeful.

Saying "God is sovereign and therefore you should stop thinking" is a bit of a cop-out. God is sovereign AND he expects us to use math, logic, reason, and every other tool at our disposal in discernment. Just because something passes the scripture test does not mean it passes the logic test. If an angel told me to tell you to take your eldest son up a mountain and sacrifice him, it might pass the scripture test, but it wouldn't pass the logic test.



OLEEguacamole -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/3/2008 2:32:36 AM)

didn't say not to think. said math wasn't part of figuring angel visits out. gave my logical, based on who God says He is, reason.



rawr.ben -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/3/2008 2:51:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc

quote:

ORIGINAL: OLEEguacamole

or you can leave math out of it and consider God to be sovereign and purposeful.

Saying "God is sovereign and therefore you should stop thinking" is a bit of a cop-out. God is sovereign AND he expects us to use math, logic, reason, and every other tool at our disposal in discernment. Just because something passes the scripture test does not mean it passes the logic test. If an angel told me to tell you to take your eldest son up a mountain and sacrifice him, it might pass the scripture test, but it wouldn't pass the logic test.


I'm sure it didn't pass the logic test for Abraham either.



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