RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Theology] >> The Church



Message

blessedinnyc -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/3/2008 4:58:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

Oh I see; Scripture is overridden by your logic, reason, and opinion.

Now that is sad.

How many angels are there blessedinnyc?

Thanks
RC

Thousands and thousands- the shepherds saw an army of angels in the sky.

If an army of angels appeared in the sky today, can you imagine how the news media would treat this? The canon is closed, and that is why we see fewer angels today- the gospel is fully revealed.



raivyne -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/3/2008 5:06:40 PM)

quote:

I am not saying these things didn't happen. I am just saying that it is 500,000 times more likely that they didn't happen (and possibly 20 times more likely that said person could benefit from professional help, along with 5 times more likely that the person will get struck by lightning in the next five years).

So you choose not to address the issues I've brought up with using modus tollens and Dirichlet's box in this situation and continue to throw out random numbers? Got it.

Basically what you're saying is that you *think* these people didn't really see angels and they need professional help, but you have no proof of such. Just probability based on what the scientific community isn't studying.



blessedinnyc -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/3/2008 5:20:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: raivyne
So you choose not to address the issues I've brought up with using modus tollens and Dirichlet's box in this situation and continue to throw out random numbers? Got it.

Well, that's really all the information I have to go on about your situation. It's sort of like the scratch-off lottery tickets. Yes, given the information under the wax, the ticket might be a winner, but I can't find out until I buy it. Am I going to buy it? No.

quote:

Basically what you're saying is that you *think* these people didn't really see angels and they need professional help, but you have no proof of such. Just probability based on what the scientific community isn't studying.

No, I am saying that the odds are greater that they need professional help than that they were visited by an angel. If one of my friends builds a machine to generate energy from lightning that he is going to carry out into a field with him and hold up in a lightning storm, there is a 95% chance that he won't get struck. There is a 4% chance that he will get injured by the lightning, and there is a 1% chance that his machine will work.

So it is more likely that he will wind up in the hospital than it is that his machine will work, even though that still is highly improbable. Likewise, it is improbable that these people are crazy, but it is even less likely that they have seen an angel.



raivyne -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/3/2008 5:26:44 PM)

quote:

Well, that's really all the information I have to go on about your situation. It's sort of like the scratch-off lottery tickets. Yes, given the information under the wax, the ticket might be a winner, but I can't find out until I buy it. Am I going to buy it? No


So, instead of addressing the flaws in your reasoning (the syllogism and the principle you've mentioned as how you arrived at your decision - neither of which can appropriately be applied to this situation) you redirect the issue to probability? Alrighty then, I see no point in continuing this discussion any further.



blessedinnyc -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/3/2008 5:40:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: raivyne
So, instead of addressing the flaws in your reasoning (the syllogism and the principle you've mentioned as how you arrived at your decision - neither of which can appropriately be applied to this situation) you redirect the issue to probability? Alrighty then, I see no point in continuing this discussion any further.

There are no flaws in my reasoning. The only potential flaw is that you have more information than I do. But that doesn't mean that I should therefore buy the lotto ticket.



OLEEguacamole -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/3/2008 6:31:27 PM)

calculator:the new bible.



blessedinnyc -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/3/2008 6:39:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OLEEguacamole

calculator:the new bible.

Actually that would be the Trinity 3000, if you ever saw the old Saturday Night Live skit.

In any case, angels are not Bibles, and I would prefer a calculator over an illusion.



raivyne -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/3/2008 7:45:13 PM)

quote:

There are no flaws in my reasoning.


Other than the fact that the logical syllogism and the mathematical principle you applied can't be correctly used in this situation, no there aren't any flaws in your logic.



colliefan -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/3/2008 11:11:52 PM)

Blessed,

By your logic, God's statement that He is a very present help in times of need is no longer true since the Cannon is closed? How does your "logic and reason" interpret the following

Rom 11:33 - 36 (ESV) 33Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! 34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?” 35 “Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?” 36For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

The equating of logic/reason/experience was brought into the church as a result of the Enlightenment and is the source of the liberal drift of the contemporary church.



Gloryandgrace -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/4/2008 12:19:39 AM)

I dont know about you all, but I will happily take all the Angels God wants to send me to help my wife and I in our ministry and our lives. I dont need to see them, but I sure am happy if God uses them to minister to us and aid us in service to Him.

I think its funny that such a big deal is made of someone claiming to have seen angels, The early church didnt have a fit over it, One helped Peter out of jail, another Helped Paul, Another was ready to fillet Baalam the prophet, the writer of Hebrews said that some have helped angels while unaware of them. John was being carried and instructed by them. Angels have appeared to many folks down through the ages and all of them are still alive and well serving God today.

Disregarding a wonderful part of Gods ministry to his Church, acting as if someone sees an angel they need help doesnt sound like a bible reader but an unbeliever.....take it however you want, Angels are taking notice of what the Church is doing and learning from it.

Solid biblical doctrine helps to steer clear of false Angels, but teachings that steer you clear of Angels themselves or casting mud upon those that believe such things is IMO immature.

John



Child4Jesus -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/4/2008 1:13:19 AM)

The fact of the matter is that whenever we we an angel appear in scripture they were there to either deliver a message, destroy something/someone/people or protect something. For people who claim to have seen angels. What is the significance? Did they happen to have bird like wings and look like a white person? Did God let you know you were seeing an angel or did you assume this? Did they have something to say? What did it do for you?



StephK -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/4/2008 8:52:22 AM)

I know that there are angels unaware. That isn't an issue with me but there seems to be a new fad in a certain segment of the church where angel sightings are happening kind of like the time when the holy laughter fad took over. [&:]



rcjames -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/4/2008 9:13:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
Thousands and thousands- the shepherds saw an army of angels in the sky.

If an army of angels appeared in the sky today, can you imagine how the news media would treat this? The canon is closed, and that is why we see fewer angels today- the gospel is fully revealed.


And how many of these thousands and thousands of angels have you been hospitable to (or should have been) that you are unaware of?

(Heb 13:2) Do not be forgetful of hospitality, for by this some have entertained angels without knowing it..


Thanks
RC



sirwintery -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/4/2008 10:19:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: StephK

I know that there are angels unaware. That isn't an issue with me but there seems to be a new fad in a certain segment of the church where angel sightings are happening kind of like the time when the holy laughter fad took over. [&:]


quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

And how many of these thousands and thousands of angels have you been hospitable to (or should have been) that you are unaware of?

(Heb 13:2) Do not be forgetful of hospitality, for by this some have entertained angels without knowing it..


Thanks
RC


Two posts in a row mention this Scripture: Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.


Isn't it interesting how the NT tells us we may entertain angels unaware---far different from sensationalistic references to angels in the aisles, pews, blowing on fingers, taking people for chariot rides and all the nonsense.



DaveW -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/4/2008 1:10:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus

The fact of the matter is that whenever we we an angel appear in scripture there were that to either deliver a message, destroy something/someone/people or protect something.
The angel that strengthened Jesus in the garden was doing which of these things?

Luk 22:41 And he withdrew from them about a stone's throw, and knelt down and prayed,
Luk 22:42 saying, "Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, not my will, but yours, be done."
Luk 22:43 And there appeared to him an angel from heaven, strengthening him.



rcjames -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/4/2008 1:33:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wintery
Two posts in a row mention this Scripture: Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.


Isn't it interesting how the NT tells us we may entertain angels unaware---far different from sensationalistic references to angels in the aisles, pews, blowing on fingers, taking people for chariot rides and all the nonsense.


I fully agree that there is more than enough phoney baloney macaroni and cheese, rock and roll, pink caddilac nonsense out there to go around, but I do not believe that Angels would be limited to only being secrent agents.

Thanks
RC

edited for spelling



sirwintery -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/4/2008 1:51:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

I fully agree that there is more than enough phoney baloney macaroni and cheese, rock and roll, pink caddilac nonsense out there tp gp around, but I do not believe that Angels would be limited to only being secret agents.

Thanks
RC


We don't really disagree, I think. The biggest portion of angel stories I have come across though, are false (deceptions), while some are likely true.



Child4Jesus -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/4/2008 2:06:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
The fact of the matter is that whenever we we an angel appear in scripture there were that to either deliver a message, destroy something/someone/people or protect something.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW
The angel that strengthened Jesus in the garden was doing which of these things?

Luk 22:41 And he withdrew from them about a stone's throw, and knelt down and prayed,
Luk 22:42 saying, "Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, not my will, but yours, be done."
Luk 22:43 And there appeared to him an angel from heaven, strengthening him.


I guess I didn't mention protect/help someone. That fact still remains however that there was always a mission of some sort. They weren't just showing themselves and disappearing. Another thing is how do these people who claim to have seen an angel know they saw one? Unless God was revealed this to him/her how do they know they have seen one?



ChristopherJ007 -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/4/2008 10:04:24 PM)

Limulus,

In regards to believers seeing angels - I encourage you to read through your Bible. You will be hard-pressed to find an era in the history of God dealing with mankind where people did not encounter angels, even (especially!) in the New Testament. It was a common experience for believers. As has been mentioned in this post already, the writer of Hebrews tells us to not be neglectful to entertain strangers, for in so doing, some have entertained angels unawares. And the Scriptures are also full of stories of physical appearances of angels to believers. I myself have had one experience in my life where I saw a vision of an angel, about five years ago. And yes, it's true that there are many false experiences that are out there - there are:

a. People who are lying, who say they have seen an angel but really haven't
b. People who have been visited by a demonic spirit, and not an angel of the Lord
c. People who have had a genuine encounter with an angel.

I don't believe that angelic experiences are common, nor do I believe (as some hyper charismatics believe) that all believers can and will see angels. But don't throw the baby out with the bath water just because some people have lied, or had wrong experiences. We must always make sure our experiences line up with the written word of God, but when referring to the Bible, you will find that angel encounters are in there in abundance!

As a side note, you really need to be careful about getting your facts and information about any movement on the internet, as there is much mis-information out there. For example, not all charismatics believe in the Word Faith doctrine. I consider myself a charismatic believer, but I out-right reject the Word Faith / prosperity gospel claims of Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, Fred Price, et all. So again, my encouragement to you is be careful what you read, check your sources, and don't give up on the spiritual gifts just because some have abused them!



Godhead -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/10/2008 9:35:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Limulus

I decided today to discontinue going to a bible study that included Charismatic doctrine. I was convicted every time something was mentioned that I knew was not biblical. It gave me a sick feeling in my gut.

Something else was brought to my attention. Our bible study leader said that people were seeing angels in physical form in their church. I know that Satan can masquerade as an angel of light. I can only conclude that the doctrine they teach, is not of God. As for what these angels are, that's a guess too and I don't really want to find out.

2 Corinthians 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

When I made the decision to not go back to that bible study, a tremendous weight was lifted off of my shoulders.


Praise God! Hallelujah!
This is one of the first post that have filled me with great joy.
I know exactly how you feel. It gives me a sick feeling to see and hear the blessed name of Jesus used to disguise occult practices. I am so glade and uplifted that there are others out there who truly love God and are unable to be deceived. From what I have seen and heard about the guys, I wouldn't be surprised if they had seen pink elephants and leprechauns as well. I do not think it would matter what they see or experience, just as long as it was some supernatural manifestation. They do not follow God but the supernatural. The Holy Spirit does not work by supernatural means but by the truth of God's Word. Healing in the Name of Jesus would be good, but unable to do that, they settle for the most ridiculous spiritual manifestations. For want of experiencing something. May God bless you brother and you post.



DaveW -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/11/2008 1:02:28 PM)

quote:

The Holy Spirit does not work by supernatural means but by the truth of God's Word.
I find this lack of faith disturbing......

The Holy Spirit ALWAYS works by supernatural means, including the truth of God's Word, which is in and of itself supernatural.

Lose the humanist reason-based scientific world view for something more biblical. That is the truth of God's Word.



phosadaud -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/11/2008 3:11:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

quote:

The Holy Spirit does not work by supernatural means but by the truth of God's Word.
I find this lack of faith disturbing......

The Holy Spirit ALWAYS works by supernatural means, including the truth of God's Word, which is in and of itself supernatural.

Lose the humanist reason-based scientific world view for something more biblical. That is the truth of God's Word.


Agreed. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around how one can read the Word and think the Holy Spirit doesn't work supernaturally. Is most of the Word just made up sci-fi stories? [&:]



blessedinnyc -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/11/2008 6:38:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW
Lose the reason-based world view

Is this how one starts seeing angels?



DaveW -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/12/2008 6:36:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW
Lose the reason-based world view

Is this how one starts seeing angels?
Seeing an angel or not seeing an angel is not really the point. It is the absolute rejection of the supernatural impacting our natural world that is problematic. Seeing an angel is only one small piece of that puzzle.



phosadaud -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (12/12/2008 3:09:23 PM)

^ Agreed.



Page: <<   < prev  2 3 4 [5] 6   next >   >>



Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.5 ANSI