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RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church - 12/12/2008 3:55:44 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2971
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
Seeing an angel or not seeing an angel is not really the point. It is the absolute rejection of the supernatural impacting our natural world that is problematic. Seeing an angel is only one small piece of that puzzle.
What about our imagination impacting our natural world? Is that possible if we drop reason from our worldview? I want to see the REAL Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
Yes, Angels exist. Yes, people win the lottery. Are you going to win the lottery and/or see an angel? Probably not.
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RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church - 12/12/2008 4:31:42 PM
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OLEEguacamole
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
Seeing an angel or not seeing an angel is not really the point. It is the absolute rejection of the supernatural impacting our natural world that is problematic. Seeing an angel is only one small piece of that puzzle.
What about our imagination impacting our natural world? Is that possible if we drop reason from our worldview? I want to see the REAL Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
Yes, Angels exist. Yes, people win the lottery. Are you going to win the lottery and/or see an angel? Probably not.
wow. linking fictional characters and the lottery to angels. strange theology.
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RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church - 12/12/2008 4:32:56 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2971
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OLEEguacamole
What about our imagination impacting our natural world? Is that possible if we drop reason from our worldview? I want to see the REAL Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
Yes, Angels exist. Yes, people win the lottery. Are you going to win the lottery and/or see an angel? Probably not.
Yup. They are all things people occasionally delude themselves about.
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RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church - 12/12/2008 5:09:40 PM
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OLEEguacamole
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so some have wrong ideas about angels. nothing new. doesn't mean we now tweak the truth about angles to avoid seeming delusional.
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RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church - 12/12/2008 5:20:48 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2971
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OLEEguacamole
so some have wrong ideas about angels. nothing new. doesn't mean we now tweak the truth about angles to avoid seeming delusional.
Nobody is saying that angels don't exist. We are just saying that the credibility of someone claiming they've seen an angel is only 2% greater than the credibility of someone saying they've seen the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles carry someone out of a burning building.
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RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church - 12/12/2008 7:56:37 PM
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OLEEguacamole
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calculator theology.
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RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church - 12/12/2008 8:37:35 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2971
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OLEEguacamole
calculator theology.
Calculator theology was used to create Trinitarianism. How does that compare to Purple Unicorn theology's record?
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RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church - 12/12/2008 10:41:55 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 1712
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The Book of Hebrews indicates that many have "entertained angels" unaware - with unaware being the operative word. No one disputes the existence of angels and their ministry. The problem comes when one makes popular culture and Christian-schlock fiction the basis for their view of angels.
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RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church - 12/12/2008 11:24:23 PM
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raivyne
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quote:
calculator theology.
more like random number theology.
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I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody if asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly, I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. Original Hippocratic Oath, circa 400 B.C.
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RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church - 12/13/2008 12:16:17 AM
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Gloryandgrace
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Raivyne: Everytime I see your avatar I just crack up..I love it.
Ok back on topic....
John
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RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church - 12/14/2008 9:22:35 PM
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Godhead
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I have heard some of the most bizarre and strange stories of things that have happened in churches. What concerns me the most, that many Christians believe these stories without question.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Limulus
2 Corinthians 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
By God's good grace, this verse made me very weary of such men in the church, even when I was just a new born Christian. It put me on guard and made me pray earnestly that I should never fall into such error or be deceived by them. God answered that prayer. God only lets them be deceived who do not care for the truth. It is a just punishment. Satan uses stealth as a means by which his followers can sneak up behind the unwary Christian and so strike them dead. His followers are in every sense, cloak and dagger Christians. They use the name of our most precious Lord, as a cloak to hide that poisonous dagger. Satan mixes lies with the Truth. We should not be at all surprise then when servants of Satan proclaim some truth. Their only aim is to entice unwary souls, not to enlighten them. Great truths can be very alluring and blind us to some equally great lies. Be on your guard, for a lazy Christian will perish if God wills it. We should not be discourage by the many who are deceived, but should be encouraged that our Lord had foreseen this and told us that it would happened and so must happen.
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
The Holy Spirit does not work by supernatural means but by the truth of God's Word. I find this lack of faith disturbing......
The Holy Spirit ALWAYS works by supernatural means, including the truth of God's Word, which is in and of itself supernatural.
Lose the humanist reason-based scientific world view for something more biblical. That is the truth of God's Word.
The Holy Spirit works, by showing god's grace and love to the sinner. The holy spirit works in conjunction with the Father and the Son in reconciling sinners to Himself. It is Satan who will work by the supernatural or any other means to throw a spanner in the works, and lead men to do his will. The holy spirit works to save men, the Devil, to destroy men. Only by a good knowledge of the scriptures can we discern one work from the other.
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"Faith consists in the knowledge of God and Christ. It is always by his word that he manifests himself to those whom he designs to draw to himself." (John Calvin)
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RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church - 12/15/2008 11:52:48 AM
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phosadaud
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
The Holy Spirit works, by showing god's grace and love to the sinner. The holy spirit works in conjunction with the Father and the Son in reconciling sinners to Himself. It is Satan who will work by the supernatural or any other means to throw a spanner in the works, and lead men to do his will. The holy spirit works to save men, the Devil, to destroy men. Only by a good knowledge of the scriptures can we discern one work from the other.
How can you believe in the Truth of Scripture and say this? Did satan impregnate the Virgin Mary? Did satan perform the healings and raising the dead in Acts? The Holy Spirit absolutely can, has and does work supernaturally when He so chooses.
Ac 2:17 In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
^ Do you believe this Scripture is wrong?
PS - I don't believe something is from God just because someone says so. I do believe and practice discernment. However, discernment means that I should not reject what God is doing just because I don't understand it or it's amazing. 
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Did you ever notice there are no recipes for leftover chocolate?
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RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church - 12/15/2008 9:22:35 PM
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Godhead
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I do not believe that the scripture are wrong, only taking some parts from it and not seeing the whole picture. Sure God had done those things for our salvation. This work has been completed. We need only to believe in this great work. On that verse that you quoted, one in which you justify the supernatural.
For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
(Act 2:15-21)
Peter here clearly explains that what was happening on the day of Pentecost was being fulfilled right then and there. There is no need for me to point out that the great works and miracles that they had done at that time are not happening today or anything like it. Only supernatural experiences. It is fare from being the outpouring of the Holy spirit on the day of Pentecost.
_____________________________
"Faith consists in the knowledge of God and Christ. It is always by his word that he manifests himself to those whom he designs to draw to himself." (John Calvin)
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RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church - 12/15/2008 10:00:27 PM
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sledmt
Posts: 720
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
The last days are over? What does that make now?
Good question.
Many men and women of Bible were ministered to by angels. Why do we think it should be any different today?
Just because something can't be fully explained, doesn't mean that it is not for today. There alot of things in the Bible that we don't began to understand, but still accept today.
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RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church - 12/15/2008 10:14:42 PM
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Godhead
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Well the thing is, if the devil can masquerade as an angel of light, why could it not then just be a devil, and not an angel. The very devil that has been giving them supernatural experiences. It may be becoming so bold, having fooled them for so long, that now it has become much more brazen. Having them fooled to such a point where it can now appear openly to them. I would bet money that this is the case. what we need to understand is how the devil works. That has been shown to us clearly in the Bible.
And why are not the great things done in the book of Acts happening now?
_____________________________
"Faith consists in the knowledge of God and Christ. It is always by his word that he manifests himself to those whom he designs to draw to himself." (John Calvin)
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RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church - 12/15/2008 10:30:13 PM
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sledmt
Posts: 720
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
Well the thing is, if the devil can masquerade as an angel of light, why could it not then just be a devil, and not an angel. The very devil that has been giving them supernatural experiences. It may be becoming so bold, having fooled them for so long, that now it has become much more brazen. Having them fooled to such a point where it can now appear openly to them. I would bet money that this is the case. what we need to understand is how the devil works. That has been shown to us clearly in the Bible.
And why are not the great things done in the book of Acts happening now?
What is the fruit.
Believers need to have a spirit of discernment to tell.
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RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church - 12/17/2008 11:56:54 PM
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Godhead
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Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached. (Luk 7:22)
This is not happening, not even anything even remotely close to it. If I had seen true signs then yes.
_____________________________
"Faith consists in the knowledge of God and Christ. It is always by his word that he manifests himself to those whom he designs to draw to himself." (John Calvin)
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RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church - 12/18/2008 11:02:05 AM
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rawr.ben
Posts: 2675
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached. (Luk 7:22)
This is not happening, not even anything even remotely close to it. If I had seen true signs then yes.
Perhaps you're looking in the wrong places.
Try Malaysia, or Argentina, or something of that sort.
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rawr.ben
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RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church - 12/18/2008 4:46:00 PM
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phosadaud
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Or meet with a friend of mine who had medically confirmed tumors all over that just "happened" to disappear when they went to surgically remove them... Or another friend who had seriously injured her knee and needed surgery and one night at a service was healed completely - medically confirmed again... And those are only 2 examples that I am personally aware of.... Even have my own example but I hadn't yet been to a doctor so there is no medical "proof"...
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Did you ever notice there are no recipes for leftover chocolate?
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RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church - 12/18/2008 5:08:32 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2971
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
Or meet with a friend of mine who had medically confirmed tumors all over that just "happened" to disappear when they went to surgically remove them... Or another friend who had seriously injured her knee and needed surgery and one night at a service was healed completely - medically confirmed again... And those are only 2 examples that I am personally aware of.... Even have my own example but I hadn't yet been to a doctor so there is no medical "proof"...
Yes, Miracles do happen, but the question is about angels.
Angels typically appear in the Bible for the purposes of divine revelation- but John says that the canon is now closed- there is nothing else scriptural that God needs to reveal to us.
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RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church - 12/18/2008 7:05:28 PM
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rawr.ben
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
Yes, Miracles do happen, but the question is about angels.
Angels typically appear in the Bible for the purposes of divine revelation- but John says that the canon is now closed- there is nothing else scriptural that God needs to reveal to us.
Emphasis mine.
And I agree.
But not all things we can be told are "scriptural."
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rawr.ben
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