Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (Full Version)

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Limulus -> Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (10/31/2008 3:35:20 PM)

I decided today to discontinue going to a bible study that included Charismatic doctrine. I was convicted every time something was mentioned that I knew was not biblical. It gave me a sick feeling in my gut.

Something else was brought to my attention. Our bible study leader said that people were seeing angels in physical form in their church. I know that Satan can masquerade as an angel of light. I can only conclude that the doctrine they teach, is not of God. As for what these angels are, that's a guess too and I don't really want to find out.

2 Corinthians 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

When I made the decision to not go back to that bible study, a tremendous weight was lifted off of my shoulders.



PastorPatricia -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (10/31/2008 4:08:00 PM)

If you feel convicted then you're certainly right not to go back to the Bible study but please don't lump all charismatics together. We're not all flakes. In the Anglican church I attend there are a number of us who are "charismatic" and for the most part the charismatics are the leaders and workers. The church I pastor also has a number of charismatics and the same hold true there. In all church denominations you'll find people who are nominal Christians, some who are committed Christians and some who are charismatic. By their fruits you will know them. If a person is producing good fruit and holds to the basics of the faith it makes little difference if they are charismatic or not.



MrFribbles -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (10/31/2008 4:14:24 PM)

While I certainly encourage you to respond to God's convction, where in Scripture does it say we can or should not see angels?



Limulus -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (10/31/2008 5:16:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

While I certainly encourage you to respond to God's convction, where in Scripture does it say we can or should not see angels?


It wasn't just the angels comment, it was that plus the doctrine that seems very close to the word, but misses the mark completely.

I find it interesting that Joseph Smith the founder of the Latter Day Saint movement said he experienced a visitation from an angel. Muhammad was said to have been visited by an angel. Look how that turned out.

I have serious concern for anyone who follows the Charismatic movement, which appears to have only been around since the early 1900's. They are preaching a new Gospel of Prosperity, etc. etc. and quite a few other things that are questionable to say the least.

False Gospel + Angels = has the characteristics of Satan

Another example would be to check out some of the Charismatic posts on this forum including the following.

Word of Faith
http://forums.crosswalk.com/m_322388/mpage_1/tm.htm



rawr.ben -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (10/31/2008 5:37:13 PM)

That's a rather limited perspective on Charismatics . .



Limulus -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (10/31/2008 5:44:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way

That's a rather limited perspective on Charismatics . .



Do all Charismatic churches teach the following?

-speaking in tongues is for today? if so, why did this startup again in the early 1900's but wasnt seen before that since about 70AD

-gospel of prosperity

-modern day prophecy and revelation, not just what is revealed in the bible

If they do, then I am very leery of all Charismatic churches. There is already quite a few posts on this forum debating those issues, so I don't need to post them again.



rawr.ben -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (10/31/2008 6:11:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Limulus

Do all Charismatic churches teach the following?

-speaking in tongues is for today? if so, why did this startup again in the early 1900's but wasnt seen before that since about 70AD


Most do teach that.

But you are erroneous in believing that tongues did not exist between 70AD and the early 1900's. Tongues has always been present. Read some of the early mystics (don't be scared by their name, it's not the same as how we think of mystics today) and you will see that it has always been around.

quote:


-gospel of prosperity


NO. Most Charismatics, in fact, flat our reject the prosperity gospel, Word of Faith, and other such unbiblical teachings.

And, in fact, you can preach a prosperity gospel and NOT be Charismatic.

quote:


-modern day prophecy and revelation, not just what is revealed in the bible


Prophecy, as it is today, is not the same as what you see in the Old Testament. There are probably better people at explaining how it works than me. Essentially, prophecy is used to bring churches to repentance. It is words being spoken that the body needs to hear.

quote:


If they do, then I am very leery of all Charismatic churches. There is already quite a few posts on this forum debating those issues, so I don't need to post them again.


Let's keep things in mind: Charismatics exist within almost all denominations. Statistics show that in upwards of 40% of Catholics are considered Charismatic now.

This is not just some isolate group that you can just run away from.

Are Charismatic people perfect? No. But neither are non-Charismatic people. Heresy resides equally within both groups. But it's caused not by a movement, but by faulty people with faulty doctrine that somehow gain a following.



Limulus -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (10/31/2008 6:25:50 PM)

This is where I get the 70AD information from. http://www.google.com/search?q=tongues+70+ad&btnG=Search&hl=en&safe=off&sa=2

There is quite a few other articles about it. If I hear someone speaking gibberish when I am praying/talking with God and they are interrupting me and other Christians and it's not a foreign language with an interpreter... I can't see how that is from God, but as I said, there is massive debate about it on these and other forums. As for Charismatics existing in all denominations, there is also many wolves among the sheep and I am watchful as to who I believe. Also the "so called" gift of tongues today is a learned behavior, not a gift from God.



Ps103 -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (10/31/2008 8:54:25 PM)

We have a one-atop thread for the gift of tongues--please discuss that HERE

As for Charismatics, the way I understand it is that this is not a denomination, but anyne who believes in the Charisms, or gift, listed in the New Testament.



phosadaud -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (10/31/2008 9:34:59 PM)

I love how folks label anyone a heretic (wolf) without bothering to understand the Scriptural basis behind what they believe.

And I for one have a REALLY hard time believing God is pleased when we slander our fellow believers based on nothing more than opinions and personal preference.

-Signed, Phosy, apparently a wolf and a faker.



Limulus -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (10/31/2008 10:12:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: phosadaud

I love how folks label anyone a heretic (wolf) without bothering to understand the Scriptural basis behind what they believe.

And I for one have a REALLY hard time believing God is pleased when we slander our fellow believers based on nothing more than opinions and personal preference.

-Signed, Phosy, apparently a wolf and a faker.


The original post was about Charismatics and seeing angels. If they are seeing these angels, are they of God?

Anyone who aligns themselves with a False Gospel is bound to have contact with satanic influences. What I am questioning is Charismatic doctrine. Even if they are not an official denomination, there is clearly a "movement" called Charismatic.

If you subscribe to Charismatic doctrine, that is your choice. My focus is on the doctrine and not you personally for example, unless you claim to see angels. If you see angels, please explain.



colliefan -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (10/31/2008 10:35:59 PM)

Col 2:18 - 19 (HCSB) 18Let no one disqualify you,insisting on ascetic practices and the worship of angels, claiming access to a visionary realm and inflated without cause by his fleshly mind. 19He doesn’t hold on to the head, from whom the whole body, nourished and held together by its ligaments and tendons, develops with growth from God.



Limulus -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (10/31/2008 10:42:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

Col 2:18 - 19 (HCSB) 18Let no one disqualify you,insisting on ascetic practices and the worship of angels, claiming access to a visionary realm and inflated without cause by his fleshly mind. 19He doesn’t hold on to the head, from whom the whole body, nourished and held together by its ligaments and tendons, develops with growth from God.


good stuff



phosadaud -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (10/31/2008 11:13:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Limulus
The original post was about Charismatics and seeing angels. If they are seeing these angels, are they of God?

Anyone who aligns themselves with a False Gospel is bound to have contact with satanic influences. What I am questioning is Charismatic doctrine. Even if they are not an official denomination, there is clearly a "movement" called Charismatic.

If you subscribe to Charismatic doctrine, that is your choice. My focus is on the doctrine and not you personally for example, unless you claim to see angels. If you see angels, please explain.


#1. Just because some folks who call themselves charismatic claim to see angels, does not make that a Charismatic doctrine. It's not. And I personally know of non-Charismatics who have claimed to have encounters with angels so I really have no clue why you are making this bizarre equation of Charismatics = Seeing angels.

#2. Can't say I've ever seen an angel - that I know of. However, Scripture is full of examples of men and women seeing and being given messages by angels from heaven. While this does not appear to be a common thing, just because someone claims to see an angel does not automatically mean they are seeing demons. Unless of course you think it was demons who talked to the Virgin Mary and Joseph, et al. [;)]

#3. Yes, Scripture says the enemy masquerades as an angel of light. Which is precisely why we must be on guard. The fact that he masquerades as such though is evidence that there is a real thing. The fact is, we are to be on our guard in all things - be Bereans and seek the Lord in all things.

#4. I have no clue if the people you know are seeing something legit or not. Not a clue. Seems pretty unlikely, but biblically speaking, it is not impossible so I can't and won't speak to that. I'll leave that between them and God. I can't imagine something much worse and more sinful than ascribing demonic activity to something that may be from God (and we see in Scripture this can and has happened). To say something God is doing is of the devil is something I don't want to have to explain to God on the judgement day so I am VERY cautious is throwing those kind of accusations out there. VERY cautious.



phosadaud -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (10/31/2008 11:17:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

Col 2:18 - 19 (HCSB) 18Let no one disqualify you,insisting on ascetic practices and the worship of angels, claiming access to a visionary realm and inflated without cause by his fleshly mind. 19He doesn’t hold on to the head, from whom the whole body, nourished and held together by its ligaments and tendons, develops with growth from God.


Are you saying that seeing an angel is the same thing as worshipping an angel? I don't see that in Scripture.



Limulus -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (10/31/2008 11:37:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: phosadaud
#1. Just because some folks who call themselves charismatic claim to see angels, does not make that a Charismatic doctrine. It's not. And I personally know of non-Charismatics who have claimed to have encounters with angels so I really have no clue why you are making this bizarre equation of Charismatics = Seeing angels.


I was referring to their errant doctrine, I.E. false gospel. If the angel they claim to have seen was from God. Then why would an angel of God approve of a false gospel, unless it was a fallen angel, one that is aligned with Satan.

quote:

ORIGINAL: phosadaud
#2. Can't say I've ever seen an angel - that I know of. However, Scripture is full of examples of men and women seeing and being given messages by angels from heaven. While this does not appear to be a common thing, just because someone claims to see an angel does not automatically mean they are seeing demons. Unless of course you think it was demons who talked to the Virgin Mary and Joseph, et al. [;)]


I absolutely believe in Angels and Demons. Again, the point that I was making was about False Gospel/Doctrine + angels. Not just angels.

quote:

ORIGINAL: phosadaud
#3. Yes, Scripture says the enemy masquerades as an angel of light. Which is precisely why we must be on guard. The fact that he masquerades as
such though is evidence that there is a real thing. The fact is, we are to be on our guard in all things - be Bereans and seek the Lord in all things.


I agree with that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: phosadaud
#4. I have no clue if the people you know are seeing something legit or not. Not a clue. Seems pretty unlikely, but biblically speaking, it is not impossible so I can't and won't speak to that. I'll leave that between them and God. I can't imagine something much worse and more sinful than ascribing demonic activity to something that may be from God (and we see in Scripture this can and has happened). To say something God is doing is of the devil is something I don't want to have to explain to God on the judgement day so I am VERY cautious is throwing those kind of accusations out there. VERY cautious.


God will take care of business. False teachers, False Prophets and the like will be dealt with. He promised.

A Tree and Its Fruit
Matthew 7:15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’



themoodyexperience -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (10/31/2008 11:43:29 PM)

I thought I saw an angel one time when I was in grade school. I believe they exist and thank God for them. However, the recent 'angel worship' trend is disturbing and blatantly unbiblical. I know it maybe wrong to define 'obsession' as worship but sometimes what I see I don't know what else to call it.



colliefan -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (10/31/2008 11:49:34 PM)

quote:


Are you saying that seeing an angel is the same thing as worshipping an angel? I don't see that in Scripture.


Not at all. But the bible seems to indicate that we have entertained angels when when we were unaware of that being's position, But I believe much of what we believe about angels comes from movies/TV and not the bible. Angels are not to be worshiped as a great deal of false dogma comes from this position. Remember, angels are God'e messengers and are sent to us with a specific purpose.



Limulus -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (10/31/2008 11:56:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan
Not at all. But the bible seems to indicate that we have entertained angels when when we were unaware of that being's position, But I believe much of what we believe about angels comes from movies/TV and not the bible. Angels are not to be worshiped as a great deal of false dogma comes from this position. Remember, angels are God'e messengers and are sent to us with a specific purpose.



You just reminded me of a song by Newsboys. (Entertaining Angels)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4VFEwYHZiU



phosadaud -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (11/1/2008 11:20:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Limulus

quote:

ORIGINAL: phosadaud
#1. Just because some folks who call themselves charismatic claim to see angels, does not make that a Charismatic doctrine. It's not. And I personally know of non-Charismatics who have claimed to have encounters with angels so I really have no clue why you are making this bizarre equation of Charismatics = Seeing angels.


I was referring to their errant doctrine, I.E. false gospel. If the angel they claim to have seen was from God. Then why would an angel of God approve of a false gospel, unless it was a fallen angel, one that is aligned with Satan.


Ok, I'm thoroughly confused here. You keep changing what your op is about. You bring up some doctrines - people show you that those are either not charismatic doctrines or they are doctrines that are not false and you say this is about angels. So I bring it back to angels and now you are saying it's about false doctrines.

You are correct - if an angel is teaching an untruth, they are not of God. But what untruth are these angels teaching and proclaiming and are you sure it's an untruth? I guess I'm not following you here and since I am a Charismatic (who like most reject the prosperity gospel), I'm trying to understand why you think I am following satan.

The group you were in may well be off and following untruths. I don't know. However, just because they are charismatic, does not mean that everything they believe is charismatic doctrine so please don't paint all charismatics as believing exactly as they do.



phosadaud -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (11/1/2008 11:25:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

quote:


Are you saying that seeing an angel is the same thing as worshipping an angel? I don't see that in Scripture.


Not at all. But the bible seems to indicate that we have entertained angels when when we were unaware of that being's position, But I believe much of what we believe about angels comes from movies/TV and not the bible. Angels are not to be worshiped as a great deal of false dogma comes from this position. Remember, angels are God'e messengers and are sent to us with a specific purpose.


I agree 100%. That being said, someone saying they saw and angel does not mean they are worshipping the angel or that the angel wasn't an actual angel from the Lord. You would need to know more to determine that and I'm not seeing that we have enough info here to know if that is the case. I don't know the op from adam - I'm not just going to take his word that they are teaching false doctrine when I don't have a clue what his doctrine is.



rawr.ben -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (11/1/2008 12:48:54 PM)

phoso,

I'm with you. I am confused what "false doctrine" keeps getting brought up.



rcjames -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (11/1/2008 1:41:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Limulus
...Something else was brought to my attention. Our bible study leader said that people were seeing angels in physical form in their church. I know that Satan can masquerade as an angel of light. I can only conclude that the doctrine they teach, is not of God. As for what these angels are, that's a guess too and I don't really want to find out.


Do you mean to say that as a Christian you have never seen an angel, or angels that according to Scripture are;

(Heb 1:13) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

(Heb 1:14) Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Sad, very sad.

Thanks
RC



Limulus -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (11/2/2008 1:03:15 AM)

Guys, I am stepping away from this discussion.

Good day to you.



earthless -> RE: Charismatics - seeing angels in their church (11/28/2008 7:33:04 PM)

Limulus,

If you are willing to come back to this discussion... I was just wondering if you have found a doctrinally sound church?



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