RE: Did She ASK for It?

RE: Did She ASK for It? (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Did She ASK for It?

Yes, but the assailant is entirely responsible for his actions.

9% (2)

Yes, she should know better & the case should be dropped.

4% (1)

No, a woman should be able to dress as she pleases, regardless!

52% (11)

No, but she should know that her behavior is irresponsible

33% (7)

Total Votes : 21

(last vote on : 11/21/2008 1:33:55 PM)
(Poll ended: 11/21/2008 2:00:00 AM)

Message

Ps103 -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (11/15/2008 11:31:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker quote: If a female (of any age) dresses provocatively and she is a victim of a sexual assault, do you think she is subject to any blame at all for provoking or causing the assault? Let's make something clear here. The OP states that the woman is dressed provocatively. Nothing was mentioned if the woman in question was drunked, or in a bar, or flirting, or picking up men. She was just dressed provocatively, which I really have no idea what that means. For some men, wearing tight jeans is provocative (seriously, just look at the he says forum ). We might as well accept the rules of the Taliban and wear a burka and cover women from head to toe, because for some men, every inch of skin makes them view women sexually. Is she asking for it because the men think with their other brain? Yes, the OP said only "dressed provocatively." The OP also did not define "sexual assault." I think things must be defined before we can answer. "Sexual assault" under the law encompasses a great deal, so all the answers so far are on topic for the general question. Some instances that might legally be sexual assault are not in my mind. "Provocative" is also in the eye of the beholder, as had been stated numerous times. So the question is such a broad one, to answer it specifically we would need more information.

zamdad -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (11/15/2008 11:51:08 AM)
quote: "Provocative" is also in the eye of the beholder, as had been stated numerous times. This is a very good point. As a former probation officer wh0 supervised sex offenders and sat in on their treatment sessions, I have heard just about everything imaginable. Some of the clothing designed for girls is very provocative. Two of my kids are in high school. Some of the clothes I see the girls wearing at school could be considered provocative. And, I agree, the question is rather broad.

BugLady -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (11/15/2008 12:19:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: huangshan quote: ORIGINAL: BugLady quote: If a female (of any age) dresses provocatively and she is a victim of a sexual assualt, do you think she is subject to any blame at all for provoking or causing the assault? No. Sexual assaults are a form of violent aggression. The assault is about controlling the victim not sex. How do you figure? An assault by its mere definition is a form of aggression. Violating another person's physical being against their will in a sexual manner is a form of violence.

benelchi -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (11/15/2008 12:46:11 PM)
I really agree with figmentPez on this one. I think the answer given most often is the "Politically Correct" one, but not the biblical one. To be real clear, I don't believe a woman should ever be raped regardless of her choice of clothing, or even her choice to get drunk. And in the case of rape, she shares no criminal responsibility for the rape regardless of her poor choices. However, as unpopular as it is to say in our current culture, provocative dress is a poor choice and it is sinful. There are reasons why God in his word calls on women to exercise modesty in their dress. The reality is that women who choose to violate God's standards of modesty are seeking improper and sinful sexual attention. No, they are not asking to be raped, and No, they do not deserve to be raped, but their sinful actions do contribute to their risk of being raped. When we stray outside of God's standards, we open ourselves up to all kinds of unintended consequences. Those who engage in sex outside of marriage open themselves up to STD's; they were not "asking" for an STD but their sinful actions placed them at a higher risk for contracting one, and the fact that those who have been faithful to their spouses sometimes contract STD's from a spouse who has been unfaithful does not justify sexual infidelity outside of marriage. People who engage in drug trafficking get murdered more often; they are not "asking" to be murdered, but their actions place them at a higher risk for being murdered, and the fact that people who are innocent of criminal activity do get murdered doesn't justify engaging in criminal activity, etc..., etc..., etc... The reason it is "Politically incorrect" to say that a woman who has been raped contributed in anyway to her risk of being raped is because it is "Politically incorrect" to say that provocative dress or drunkenness is sinful at all. Biblically we should never defend the rapist for the crime they committed (there is no excuse for rape), but we should also not be defending the woman for the sin she engaged in either.

edgibson -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (11/15/2008 3:07:48 PM)
Allow me to pose a similar question. If a man walks down dark alleys with large amounts of cash visible, is he asking to get robbed? Of course, nobody asks to be robbed or raped. However, if you dangle the bait, don't be too shocked when you get a bite. Does the man in the situation above have the right to show off his cash if he wants? Is it his fault that the thieves cannot control themselves?

Sideways -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (11/15/2008 3:18:49 PM)
Is a sexy dress worn to a nice party the same thing as walking down a dark alley with wads of cash sticking out of your pocket? A really nice dress might be considered provocative, and if the women gets raped on her way to the car - she was dangling bait? I don't think so. I think women should be able to dress in an attractive manner without fear of being attacked, and they shouldn't have to pass inspection with the ultra-conservative Christian police in order to be freed of responsibility from rape. That being said, I don't think it is right for a Christian woman to dress slutty, but the sin of immodesty is totally separate from the much greater sin of rape. If a man is in a mindset to rape a woman and he has the opportunity to do so, it probably won't matter much what she's wearing. Although, some rapists have said that when they were looking for a target, they looked for women wearing looser clothing, not tight clothing. Loose clothing is easier to grab and tear off. Tight jeans are difficult to get on and off, giving the woman more time to fight back and scream for help.

benelchi -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (11/15/2008 3:38:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sideways Is a sexy dress worn to a nice party the same thing as walking down a dark alley with wads of cash sticking out of your pocket? A really nice dress might be considered provocative, and if the women gets raped on her way to the car - she was dangling bait? I don't think so. What if the guy is only has a small wad of cash hanging out of his pocket, and the alley is only partially dark. Is he now absolved of all responsibility of putting himself at risk? quote: I think women should be able to dress in an attractive manner without fear of being attacked, and they shouldn't have to pass inspection with the ultra-conservative Christian police in order to be freed of responsibility from rape. That being said, I don't think it is right for a Christian woman to dress slutty, but the sin of immodesty is totally separate from the much greater sin of rape. A really nice dress does not have to be provocative! Yes, the sin of immodesty is a separate issue from the greater sin of rape, but immodest dress does put a woman at higher risk for rape, and to some extent these sins are related. Some of the highest incidents of rape happen in the sex worker trade and that isn't a statistical anomaly. quote: If a man is in a mindset to rape a woman and he has the opportunity to do so, it probably won't matter much what she's wearing. Although, some rapists have said that when they were looking for a target, they looked for women wearing looser clothing, not tight clothing. Loose clothing is easier to grab and tear off. Tight jeans are difficult to get on and off, giving the woman more time to fight back and scream for help. Some of the most immodest clothing I have seen woman ware is also very loose; are you acknowledging that women waring loose and immodest clothing are putting themselves at risk?

StephK -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (11/15/2008 3:49:42 PM)
Why are the victims being blamed in these scenarios? It should not matter if someone has cash showing or dressed in a certain way it does not excuse the perpetrator for their lack of self control and greed.

Ps103 -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (11/15/2008 3:52:55 PM)
quote: Why are the victims being blamed in these scenarios? Because they are know or should know that they are engaging in risky behavior.

benelchi -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (11/15/2008 4:12:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: StephK Why are the victims being blamed in these scenarios? It should not matter if someone has cash showing or dressed in a certain way it does not excuse the perpetrator for their lack of self control and greed. No one said that the perpetrator should be excused for their lack of self control, that is an extrapolation that you made that is completely invalid. What was said is that the victim placed themselves at higher risk by their own actions. If I know that someone has illegally planted land mines in a field, and I choose to walk across that field and get injured when one of the land mine explodes, I have been partially responsible for my injuries. The perpetrator who illegally planted the land mines should not be excused for my resulting injuries and he should be punished to the full extent of the law, but his criminal act doesn't absolve my partial responsibility in what happened.

StephK -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (11/15/2008 4:55:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ps103 quote: Why are the victims being blamed in these scenarios? Because they are know or should know that they are engaging in risky behavior. I agree that some women are teases and are guilty of leading men on but that is not usually based on what she is wearing. It is usually based on actions like flirting and touching. I believe that she is partly responsible for what happens in those cases but the law says that women and men for that matter have the right to say no and at that point whatever is going on must stop. Look I've been sexually abused as a kid and robbed as an adult. After being on the receiving end of things, I do see things a little differently. It's not about what was worn in the majority of rape cases. As far as being robbed, it was more about the greedy meth heads meeting their next fix. Most people don't flash their money or things when they are mugged and robbed. It is about predatory people who don't care about others and will take what they want because they feel entitled.

StephK -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (11/15/2008 4:59:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: benelchi quote: ORIGINAL: StephK Why are the victims being blamed in these scenarios? It should not matter if someone has cash showing or dressed in a certain way it does not excuse the perpetrator for their lack of self control and greed. No one said that the perpetrator should be excused for their lack of self control, that is an extrapolation that you made that is completely invalid. What was said is that the victim placed themselves at higher risk by their own actions. If I know that someone has illegally planted land mines in a field, and I choose to walk across that field and get injured when one of the land mine explodes, I have been partially responsible for my injuries. The perpetrator who illegally planted the land mines should not be excused for my resulting injuries and he should be punished to the full extent of the law, but his criminal act doesn't absolve my partial responsibility in what happened. I guess women should just go hole up in the nunneries then because men can't control themselves? [8\|]

Sideways -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (11/15/2008 5:46:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: StephK After being on the receiving end of things, I do see things a little differently. It's not about what was worn in the majority of rape cases. As far as being robbed, it was more about the greedy meth heads meeting their next fix. Most people don't flash their money or things when they are mugged and robbed. It is about predatory people who don't care about others and will take what they want because they feel entitled. I agree with you totally. Predators are predators, and they'll come up with any excuse to commit their crimes. I really doubt that clothing had much to do with any rape cases. And yes, a nice, modest dress can be provocative, simply because the women looks very attractive and a lot of men translate attractive into provocative. Men like to blame women for looking their best and being attractive to males. Flirting is another gray area. A single women may engage in some light flirting with a guy who seems nice at the time, does that mean she is asking to be raped? No, not in any sane scenario, but a lot of guys will blame the girl for smiling at him and laughing at his jokes. Certainly it is possible to act stupid, and really be a tease... increasing the odds of date rape, but flirting alone is not a excuse to rape, nor should it be considered risky behavior.

Sideways -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (11/15/2008 5:55:41 PM)
And no, I don't think a women wearing loose clothing is asking to be raped anymore then a women wearing tight clothing. My point was that, depending on the eyes of the rapist and what he's looking for, any women, wearing practically anything could be a target to him, based on what he finds attractive in a rape victim.

benelchi -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (11/15/2008 5:58:24 PM)
quote: I guess women should just go hole up in the nunneries then because men can't control themselves? If you believe that ALL women are unable to unable to control themselves and dress modestly and that ALL men are unable to control themselves and refrain from raping immodestly dressed women then yes, maybe such an extreme stand is warranted. However, I have far more faith that men and women can control themselves and submit their will to Christ's will. Simply put, I believe that both men and woman should take ownership of their own failures to the degree that they themselves have failed. Trying to excuse our own sin by blaming it on the sinful actions of another is as old as mankind; it began in the garden. "The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree and I ate" Ge. 3:12 Yes, Eve sinned, and Yes, Adam Sinned, and Yes, there sins were related to one another. Eve's sin wasn't absolved because Adam sinned, and Adam's sin wasn't absolved because Eve sinned. Each stood before God responsible for their own actions apart from the choice of the others involved. To be clear: Yes, there are many woman who have been raped who are innocent before God for any participation in the circumstances that allowed for their rape; however, the OP doesn't address every rape, but rather the rape of women who are provocatively dressed. And while a woman choosing to immodestly and sinfully adorn herself SHOULD NOT ever be used as an excuse for rape, it should be realized that it does place her at higher risk for rape, just as in the example given earlier of a man walking around while displaying a big wad of cash places him at a higher risk of being robbed.

benelchi -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (11/15/2008 5:59:53 PM)
quote: I agree with you totally. Predators are predators, and they'll come up with any excuse to commit their crimes. I really doubt that clothing had much to do with any rape cases. Why then is rape so prevalent among sex workers?

Sideways -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (11/15/2008 7:00:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: benelchi quote: I agree with you totally. Predators are predators, and they'll come up with any excuse to commit their crimes. I really doubt that clothing had much to do with any rape cases. Why then is rape so prevalent among sex workers? Easy targets to start with. In the mind of the predators they're already giving themselves away anyhow, the predator just gets off on the power and the fear and the violence.

benelchi -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (11/15/2008 7:05:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sideways quote: ORIGINAL: benelchi quote: I agree with you totally. Predators are predators, and they'll come up with any excuse to commit their crimes. I really doubt that clothing had much to do with any rape cases. Why then is rape so prevalent among sex workers? Easy targets to start with. In the mind of the predators they're already giving themselves away anyhow, the predator just gets off on the power and the fear and the violence. So you are saying that their provocative dress has no impact on their risk of being raped? If you believe, as it seems you do, that immodest dress has no impact on anyone, why then do you believe God calls women to dress modestly?

PrincessDonna -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (11/15/2008 7:12:51 PM)
I think one person's sin does not cause another person's sin. Each person has their own free will and choice to sin. In this case, no, I do not believe the sin of dressing immodestly is asking for the sin of rape to be perpetuated on the individual. I also do believe that rape is most often about power and control and nothing whatsoever to do with sex or attraction.

benelchi -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (11/15/2008 7:25:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PrincessDonna I think one person's sin does not cause another person's sin. Each person has their own free will and choice to sin. Agreed, but one person's sin can provide the temptation that allows another to sin. If I offer a $100, $1000, or a $1,000,000 dollars to a woman for sex, I have not caused her to engage in sexual immorality, but I have provided the temptation which may be the catalyst that allows her to choose to sin. quote: In this case, no, I do not believe the sin of dressing immodestly is asking for the sin of rape to be perpetuated on the individual. I also do believe that rape is most often about power and control and nothing whatsoever to do with sex or attraction. Again agreed, not even the OP said that a woman who dressed provocatively was "asking for the sin of rape to be perpetuated" on her. The question is whether her choice to (in sin) dress provocatively places her at greater risk for being raped. I think that the answer to that question is clearly yes, those who dress provocatively do place themselves in greater risk.

PrincessDonna -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (11/15/2008 7:32:02 PM)
The people that I know that have been raped (myself included) were not dressed provocatively. I do think those who dress provocatively may also take risks that those who dress more modestly might not take (walking alone at night, being alone with a man they don't really know, etc.), but I do not believe it is the manner they dressed in that makes them more likely to be raped. Nope.

Sideways -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (11/15/2008 7:42:03 PM)
Why does God call ALL his children to modesty? So that we do not draw attention to ourselves but to God. And yes, Men's eyes can be drawn by immodest clothing, so we are helping men out by not dressing immodestly. And for the record, I think some extreme types of modest clothing are not necessarily modest, simply because they stand out so much and draw a lot of attention to the wearer. But the same men who might be distracted by a low cut top in church are not the same men who would go out and rape. The motives for staring at a low cut top are completely different then the motives for rape. Donna made a good point about walking alone at night or in high-crime areas (where prostitutes generally are), those behaviors may well put someone at greater risk of being raped, simply because the lady is more vulnerable and around more criminal types. Again, I think her dress has little to do with it - walking alone at night would make it more a crime of opportunity. Man wants to rape, man sees a woman alone on a deserted street - easy pickings.

benelchi -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (11/15/2008 7:43:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PrincessDonna The people that I know that have been raped (myself included) were not dressed provocatively. Agreed, many woman who are raped were not doing anything at all to bring this upon themselves, but that is not the question of the OP. The reality is that in almost every area of sinful behavior innocent people are affected by the sins of the guilty. However, the question proposed here on this thread is whether the sinful choice of a woman to dress immodestly causes her to share some blame. As an example, if someone stops me at gun point and robs me of $500 dollars, I do not share any blame. But if I invite people I hardly know into my home and leave $500 dollars out on my counter. I do share some responsibly for having it stolen. I did not cause the other person to steel from me, but I did allow for a situation in which the likelihood of a theft taking place was far greater. quote: I do think those who dress provocatively may also take risks that those who dress more modestly might not take (walking alone at night, being alone with a man they don't really know, etc.), but I do not believe it is the manner they dressed in that makes them more likely to be raped. Nope. If immodest dress has no effect on anyone, why then do you believe God is so concerned about modesty? If immodest dress cannot influence a person's behavior, why then is it the primary choice used in today's advertising?

benelchi -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (11/15/2008 7:49:01 PM)
quote: But the same men who might be distracted by a low cut top in church are not the same men who would go out and rape. The motives for staring at a low cut top are completely different then the motives for rape. So if I understand you right, you believe that men who do not commit rape are negatively influenced by a woman's immodest dress, but those who are willing to rape are somehow unaffected by a woman's immodest dress?

PrincessDonna -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (11/15/2008 7:49:48 PM)
I didn't say it has no effect on anyone in any way. I said I do not believe it is the cause of most rapes. More times than not, I believe the dress of the victim has nothing to do with it. I believe God is concerned about modesty because it is a heart issue, not a clothing issue. I don't believe God is concerned with modesty because of anything to do with rape.

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