RE: Did She ASK for It?

RE: Did She ASK for It? (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Did She ASK for It?

Yes, but the assailant is entirely responsible for his actions.

9% (2)

Yes, she should know better & the case should be dropped.

4% (1)

No, a woman should be able to dress as she pleases, regardless!

52% (11)

No, but she should know that her behavior is irresponsible

33% (7)

Total Votes : 21

(last vote on : 11/21/2008 1:33:55 PM)
(Poll ended: 11/21/2008 2:00:00 AM)

Message

Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (11/24/2008 8:28:04 PM)
Since I came into a thread through a "back door," I didn't realize until after I had answered that it was a men-only thread. I will put my answer here. quote: RE: Provocatively dressed womenORIGINAL: benelchi In this thread in M & E the women have almost been in complete agreement that dressing provocatively in itself does not in any way increase a woman's risk to be raped. I am not sure, but I think you are misunderstanding what the women have written. I THINK they intend that the way a woman dresses should never be used as an excuse for rape.

lightbeamrider -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (11/25/2008 2:44:19 PM)
i reject the assumption the ''manhood'' of the male is tied up in a certain part of his anatomy. A priest is no less male if he takes a vow of celibacy. I find it interesting some would equate castration with loss of manhood. There is far more to being man than his ability or willingness to reproduce. There is far more to being woman than their choice of dress, be it modest or trashy. I note there are many provocative statements in scripture. Paul wrote certain men should ''mutilate themselves.'' Jesus said we should cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes. I am not Paul. I should have waited a day before posting anything on this topic. I apologize if anyone was offended.

Irreparable -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (12/5/2008 1:26:03 AM)
I read the first 3, 4 pages of responses and jumped to the end where things took a odd turn, but I have a couple comments. A lot of different aspects of rape and blaming situations have been mentioned but I want to address the actual title of the post: Did she ASK for it? The fact that the question is slanted from this perspective is what bothers me. Think back to the bullys in elementary school when ask why one kid picks on another, the guilty trys to justify his lashing out with "well he asked for it". So somehow that makes it ok. Blaming the other person for triggering your bad behavior doesnt make it right. The addendum to the post aiming for the christian responsibility of proper appearance is another issue. We are all responsible for our own choices and knowing what message clothing and behavior can send. This is a highly subjective area that no post without pictures is going to be agreed upon. What is modest to some is not to others. In my experience no person no matter how dressed up to stark naked 'asks' to be raped. This attitude blames the victim. Is there often bad judgment in clothing choices? Sure. That doesn't mean the person is asking to be hurt. The law is finally catching up to experience and even is someone is unconscious drunk if they cant give verbal consent it is rape. So back to the original question, is she asking for it? No. Is she responsible for getting hit on if shes a bit on the slutty side, yes, and she needs to look at herself and what her motivations really are if thats not the response she is looking for. And its a whole other topic about how girls are socialized and shown whats modest in our society in general. Either way nobody asks for it.

SwiftL -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (1/3/2009 2:45:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Irreparable I read the first 3, 4 pages of responses and jumped to the end where things took a odd turn, but I have a couple comments. A lot of different aspects of rape and blaming situations have been mentioned but I want to address the actual title of the post: Did she ASK for it? The fact that the question is slanted from this perspective is what bothers me. Think back to the bullys in elementary school when ask why one kid picks on another, the guilty trys to justify his lashing out with "well he asked for it". So somehow that makes it ok. Blaming the other person for triggering your bad behavior doesnt make it right. One would have to ask did the quiet or shy child or the boy with the smaller frame ask to be pushed or beat up? No. The bully made a choice to attack who he saw as weaker. The victim is not at fault. quote: The addendum to the post aiming for the christian responsibility of proper appearance is another issue. We are all responsible for our own choices and knowing what message clothing and behavior can send. This is a highly subjective area that no post without pictures is going to be agreed upon. What is modest to some is not to others. In my experience no person no matter how dressed up to stark naked 'asks' to be raped. This attitude blames the victim. Is there often bad judgment in clothing choices? Sure. That doesn't mean the person is asking to be hurt. The law is finally catching up to experience and even is someone is unconscious drunk if they cant give verbal consent it is rape. Exactly. No girl or woman wants to be raped and no woman get's dressed thinking this will me get raped either. I also, agree that no matter what a woman is wearing or even if she was stark naked in her backyard she is not asking to be raped. She is not responsible for the rape at all! The only person responsible for rape is the rapist. The rapist is guilty of the crime, not the victim! In addition, rape is not about sex it's more to do with power and control. Everyday elderly women and children are raped. Not one thing to do with provocative clothing. A number of rapists who have been interviewed stated they looked for victims who were vulnerable or attainable to rape. Older or weaker who could not fight back as hard. Women who were walking alone at night or early morning joggers/walkers and women who lived by themselves. Girls alone that they could grab or force into areas where no one could see.

sunshinesoprano -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (1/6/2009 9:39:25 AM)
I have a theory that most women/girls who dress provocatively do so to generate attention. The problem is that the kind of attention that they get isn't good attention. They may think it is, but it's not. I don't think ANYTHING gives ANYONE the right to assault, rape, or attack anyone else. And it is correct that a scantily dressed woman can be attacked just like a completely covered one. However, it is important for women/girls to understand that if you put yourself out as a sex object, that's how you'll be viewed. While I don't think anyone "asks" to be assaulted, it's clear by the way some folks dress they're wanting a specific kind of attention. I would, however, like to see some stats on this...

stonek -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (1/7/2009 8:56:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: benelchi quote: I agree with you totally. Predators are predators, and they'll come up with any excuse to commit their crimes. I really doubt that clothing had much to do with any rape cases. Why then is rape so prevalent among sex workers? Because some think they can take it from them since they already do it for a living.

benelchi -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (1/8/2009 11:52:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: stonek quote: ORIGINAL: benelchi quote: I agree with you totally. Predators are predators, and they'll come up with any excuse to commit their crimes. I really doubt that clothing had much to do with any rape cases. Why then is rape so prevalent among sex workers? Because some think they can take it from them since they already do it for a living. Sorry, I simply disagree. It is also very high among college women in the "party" crowd where the dress, drugs, and alcohol are all present (like in the sex industry), but with out the "professional" hookers.

CheshireMuse -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (1/8/2009 12:29:57 PM)
1.3 women (ages 18 and over) in the United States are forcibly raped each minute. That translates to 78 per hour, 1,871 per day, or 683,000 per year. D.G. Kilpatrick, C.N. Edmunds, & A. Seymour. 1992. Rape in America: A Report to the Nation. Arlington VA: National Victim Center. Rape and sexual assault prevalence is difficult to determine because the crime is significantly underreported. The primary annual government indicators available are the FBI's Uniform Crime Report (UCR), which only includes rapes reported to law enforcement, and the U.S. Department of Justice's National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) which involves a survey of U.S. households and tallies offenses reported by victims age 12 and older. Both estimates are thought by many experts to be low. (1) Results of the NCVS released in December 1998 estimated 311,000 rapes and sexual assaults against victims over the age of 12 in the United States in 1997. (2) Results of the UCR indicated approximately 96,000 reported forcible rapes in 1997. (3) American Medical Association. 1997. Facts About Sexual Assault. Chicago, Illinois: American Medical Association. Michael Rand. 1998. Criminal Victimization 1997: Changes 1996-97 With Trends 1993-97. Washington, D.C.: Bureau of Justice Statistics National Crime Victimization Survey, Office of Justice Programs, US Department of Justice. Federal Bureau of Investigation. 1997. Uniform Crime Reports for the United States, 1997. Washington, D.C.: Federal Bureau of Investigation, US Department of Justice. Rape is called the most underreported violent crime in America. Only 16% of rapes are ever reported to the police. In a survey of victims who did not report rape or attempted rape to the police, the following was found as to why no report was made: 43% thought nothing could be done, 27% felt it was a private matter, 12% were afraid of police response, and 12% felt it was not important enough. Kilpatrick et al., 1992. In the United States, a rape is reported every five minutes. FBI Uniform Crime Report, 1997. 60% of the women who reported being raped were under 18 years old 29% were less than 11 years old 32% were between 11 and 17 22% were between 18 and 24 7% were between 25 and 29 6% were older than 29 3% age was not available Rape in America: A Report to the Nation, National Victim Center, 1992. Perpetrators Only 2% of rapists are convicted and imprisoned. U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee: Conviction and Imprisonment Statistics, 1993. I've been reading this thread for weeks now - mostly disgusted at the responses seen here. Do you want to know why rape is the most under reported crime in the nation? Because of attitudes like I've seen here. Many of you feel that the victim bears some responsibility for her attack, even though you're careful to put in the appropriate "I don't condone rape" disclaimers. Still, the tone and jist of the remainder of the post clearly indicates the opposite. When a woman is raped, the first thing people do is say: Where was she? What was she doing? How was she dressed?.... searching (it seems) for a way to blame the woman for what happened. *Are any of you aware that over 75% of rapes are committed by a person the victim knows?* Someone she would have no reason to distrust? I was raped when I was 19. I never told anyone until I told my husband. Do you know why I never reported it? Two reasons - first, the man in question and I had dated prior to the incident (and had broken up because I would NOT have sex with him before marriage)... and second, he was a COP. I knew there wasn't a snowball's chance I would get justice. To this day, the sight of a police officer's uniform makes me nauseated (and I'm 43 now). For the record (cause I know you're curious).... I was not a drinker, I did not party, I was not promiscuous, nor was I a "serial" dater. I was a part time student and worked for a local bank. I lived at home with my parents. My rape occurred in my parent's den, while they were on vacation. He called and asked if he could drop by to give me back some of the things I had given him while we dated. It never occurred to me to be afraid of him - he had never tried to "force" me, even when we dated... only made it clear he couldn't be in a relationship with someone who wouldn't be physical with him. Plus he was a sheriff.... someone who is supposed to uphold the law... The woman is the one violated - then she is looked down on, her every move scrutinized, her past laid out for public consumption, and she is forced to relive that moment over and over again for years. Only 6% of rapists are ever even brought to trial - and only 2% every do jail time. Then, just to rub salt in the wound, the victim is looked down on by society. As if she's "damaged" or "spoiled"..... It makes me so angry I could scream.

zamdad -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (1/8/2009 12:54:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CheshireMuse 1.3 women (ages 18 and over) in the United States are forcibly raped each minute. That translates to 78 per hour, 1,871 per day, or 683,000 per year. D.G. Kilpatrick, C.N. Edmunds, & A. Seymour. 1992. Rape in America: A Report to the Nation. Arlington VA: National Victim Center. Rape and sexual assault prevalence is difficult to determine because the crime is significantly underreported. The primary annual government indicators available are the FBI's Uniform Crime Report (UCR), which only includes rapes reported to law enforcement, and the U.S. Department of Justice's National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) which involves a survey of U.S. households and tallies offenses reported by victims age 12 and older. Both estimates are thought by many experts to be low. (1) Results of the NCVS released in December 1998 estimated 311,000 rapes and sexual assaults against victims over the age of 12 in the United States in 1997. (2) Results of the UCR indicated approximately 96,000 reported forcible rapes in 1997. (3) American Medical Association. 1997. Facts About Sexual Assault. Chicago, Illinois: American Medical Association. Michael Rand. 1998. Criminal Victimization 1997: Changes 1996-97 With Trends 1993-97. Washington, D.C.: Bureau of Justice Statistics National Crime Victimization Survey, Office of Justice Programs, US Department of Justice. Federal Bureau of Investigation. 1997. Uniform Crime Reports for the United States, 1997. Washington, D.C.: Federal Bureau of Investigation, US Department of Justice. Rape is called the most underreported violent crime in America. Only 16% of rapes are ever reported to the police. In a survey of victims who did not report rape or attempted rape to the police, the following was found as to why no report was made: 43% thought nothing could be done, 27% felt it was a private matter, 12% were afraid of police response, and 12% felt it was not important enough. Kilpatrick et al., 1992. In the United States, a rape is reported every five minutes. FBI Uniform Crime Report, 1997. 60% of the women who reported being raped were under 18 years old 29% were less than 11 years old 32% were between 11 and 17 22% were between 18 and 24 7% were between 25 and 29 6% were older than 29 3% age was not available Rape in America: A Report to the Nation, National Victim Center, 1992. Perpetrators Only 2% of rapists are convicted and imprisoned. U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee: Conviction and Imprisonment Statistics, 1993. I've been reading this thread for weeks now - mostly disgusted at the responses seen here. Do you want to know why rape is the most under reported crime in the nation? Because of attitudes like I've seen here. Many of you feel that the victim bears some responsibility for her attack, even though you're careful to put in the appropriate "I don't condone rape" disclaimers. Still, the tone and jist of the remainder of the post clearly indicates the opposite. When a woman is raped, the first thing people do is say: Where was she? What was she doing? How was she dressed?.... searching (it seems) for a way to blame the woman for what happened. *Are any of you aware that over 75% of rapes are committed by a person the victim knows?* Someone she would have no reason to distrust? I was raped when I was 19. I never told anyone until I told my husband. Do you know why I never reported it? Two reasons - first, the man in question and I had dated prior to the incident (and had broken up because I would NOT have sex with him before marriage)... and second, he was a COP. I knew there wasn't a snowball's chance I would get justice. To this day, the sight of a police officer's uniform makes me nauseated (and I'm 43 now). For the record (cause I know you're curious).... I was not a drinker, I did not party, I was not promiscuous, nor was I a "serial" dater. I was a part time student and worked for a local bank. I lived at home with my parents. My rape occurred in my parent's den, while they were on vacation. He called and asked if he could drop by to give me back some of the things I had given him while we dated. It never occurred to me to be afraid of him - he had never tried to "force" me, even when we dated... only made it clear he couldn't be in a relationship with someone who wouldn't be physical with him. Plus he was a sheriff.... someone who is supposed to uphold the law... The woman is the one violated - then she is looked down on, her every move scrutinized, her past laid out for public consumption, and she is forced to relive that moment over and over again for years. Only 6% of rapists are ever even brought to trial - and only 2% every do jail time. Then, just to rub salt in the wound, the victim is looked down on by society. As if she's "damaged" or "spoiled"..... It makes me so angry I could scream. Cheshire, I am sorry for your experience. It truly is a shame that sexual crimes are so rampant and infrequently reported or prosecuted. Your post, however, provides a clear example of how each of us address this issue from our own personal experience. Your anger is justified. Yet, when it is applied to those who have a different perspective it inhibits thoughtful discussion that addresses the topic and helps to educate and resolve issues.

benelchi -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (1/8/2009 1:33:58 PM)
CheshireMuse, I truly am sorry that you had to experience the pain of rape; however, I think your experience has blinded you to what people in this thread are really saying. First, I want to address the idea that you put forth that people "looked down on women" because they have been raped; that is certainly not my view! That question came up in another thread a while back and this was my response. Second, the issue is NOT about looking for a reason to blame a woman for being raped, but about understanding the behaviors that may put women in greater risk BEFORE she is raped and encouraging women to avoid those behaviors so that their chances of being rape are reduced. We are all aware that rape happens when women have done nothing sinful or irresponsible and that there is nothing that a woman can do to guarantee her safety (as much as most of us wish it could be done) but the reality is that women can do things to reduce their risk of being raped. Some of those things have have no moral implications but are just a matter of common sense and some are associated risky and sinful behavior i.e. those who engage in a combination of drinking, drug use, promiscuous sex, immodest dress, etc.. are statistically at a higher risk of being raped. While there are many women who NEVER engage in these types of activities and do get raped and many who do engage in these activities and never get raped, the risk factor is higher for those who do. And when talking with women about protecting themselves from rape, these topics should NOT be off limits. Additionally it should be noted that while rape is a significant problem that is very under reported, the statistics you have provided are old and rejected by most modern studies of rape. There have been widely recognized problems with how data was collected in earlier studies and most modern studies have made adjustments to account for these problems. I also think it was a huge mistake for you to have not reported your rape because the rapist was a cop. It was a mistake to assume that his position would have prevented justice because, even though it could have happened, there is a good chance that it would not have resulted in the injustice you had anticipated. If I knew a woman in your circumstance I would have strongly encouraged her to report the rape and press charges against the rapist; I probably would have even reported it myself.

CheshireMuse -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (1/8/2009 2:11:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: zamdad quote: ORIGINAL: CheshireMuse 1.3 women (ages 18 and over) in the United States are forcibly raped each minute. That translates to 78 per hour, 1,871 per day, or 683,000 per year. D.G. Kilpatrick, C.N. Edmunds, & A. Seymour. 1992. Rape in America: A Report to the Nation. Arlington VA: National Victim Center. [ It makes me so angry I could scream. Cheshire, I am sorry for your experience. It truly is a shame that sexual crimes are so rampant and infrequently reported or prosecuted. Your post, however, provides a clear example of how each of us address this issue from our own personal experience. Your anger is justified. Yet, when it is applied to those who have a different perspective it inhibits thoughtful discussion that addresses the topic and helps to educate and resolve issues. My intent or anger has nothing to do with inhibiting discussion or educating women on ways to avoid rape. It is a survivor's perspective on what has been posted here. As I said before, even though the disclaimers are put on every post ("I don't condone rape"), many posters then go on to say that because she was dressed "immodestly" or was at a party or was having drinks, then she shares responsibility for what happened to her. Which implies that she bears some of the burden of blame in what happened to her. Perhaps you didn't mean it to come off that way, but considering that 1 in 4 women (see RAINN for the 2006 stats from the US Dept of Justice) has been or will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime, it's a safe bet that there are many survivors of such crimes reading these words. Since survivors of rape struggle with guilt and shame over what happened to them, even the suggestion of blame is yet another wound in a very wounded soul.

elastic -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (1/8/2009 2:15:53 PM)
quote: Since survivors of rape struggle with guilt and shame over what happened to them, even the suggestion of blame is yet another wound in a very wounded soul. i agree with this. in the end it doesn't matter what anyone is wearing or doing, they NEVER deserve to be assaulted. period.

CheshireMuse -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (1/8/2009 2:38:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: benelchi CheshireMuse, I truly am sorry that you had to experience the pain of rape; however, I think your experience has blinded you to what people in this thread are really saying. First, I want to address the idea that you put forth that people "looked down on women" because they have been raped; that is certainly not my view! That question came up in another thread a while back and this was my response. Second, the issue is NOT about looking for a reason to blame a woman for being raped, but about understanding the behaviors that may put women in greater risk BEFORE she is raped and encouraging women to avoid those behaviors so that their chances of being rape are reduced. So, going by what I've read on this thread, a woman should never attend a party where there is alcohol, nor should she ever have a drink anywhere but in her own home. She should never wear a skirt that is shorter than the knee, heels, stockings, or blouse that isn't high-necked. The thing I think people are missing is that only 17% of reported rapes are perpetrated by an unknown assailant (see RAINN for 2006 US Dept of Justice stats). That means that 83% of all rapists KNOW their victim. How do you prepare for that? We are all aware that rape happens when women have done nothing sinful or irresponsible and that there is nothing that a woman can do to guarantee her safety (as much as most of us wish it could be done) but the reality is that women can do things to reduce their risk of being raped. Some of those things have have no moral implications but are just a matter of common sense and some are associated risky and sinful behavior i.e. those who engage in a combination of drinking, drug use, promiscuous sex, immodest dress, etc.. are statistically at a higher risk of being raped. While there are many women who NEVER engage in these types of activities and do get raped and many who do engage in these activities and never get raped, the risk factor is higher for those who do. And when talking with women about protecting themselves from rape, these topics should NOT be off limits. I never said they should be off limits. I simply observed that there is an undercurrent of disapproval and blame for victims who were assaulted while at a party or dressed in a manner that the poster regarded as immodest. Additionally it should be noted that while rape is a significant problem that is very under reported, the statistics you have provided are old and rejected by most modern studies of rape. There have been widely recognized problems with how data was collected in earlier studies and most modern studies have made adjustments to account for these problems. See RAINN for the 2006 US Dept of Justice stats on rape. I also think it was a huge mistake for you to have not reported your rape because the rapist was a cop. It was a mistake to assume that his position would have prevented justice because, even though it could have happened, there is a good chance that it would not have resulted in the injustice you had anticipated. If I knew a woman in your circumstance I would have strongly encouraged her to report the rape and press charges against the rapist; I probably would have even reported it myself. I don't agree. I thought about it, don't get me wrong. Even at 19, I knew exactly what I was facing- the report, the exam, the depositions, the trial, the press..... I had to consider what this would do to my family... Knowing that the burden of proof was on me, and then looking at the facts, it was apparant that nothing would have come of it.... Here's what I was up against.... I had previously dated my assailant. Even though we had never had a physical relationship, it was my word against his. He was a decorated officer with no prior disciplinary issues. I was alone in the house when he came over, and I let him in. The physical evidence was minimal. I'm not stupid. I knew how this would play out in the courts (if it ever even got that far). I made my choice based on the fact that I knew my coming forward would do nothing but devastate my family and violate me even further. And then, of course, I felt that I was partly responsible for what happened to me because I let him come over in the first place. Look, I'm sorry if I overreacted to what you said. I should have known better than to come onto this thread in the first place.... Thank you for your input and thank you for listening.

zamdad -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (1/8/2009 2:40:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CheshireMuse quote: ORIGINAL: zamdad quote: ORIGINAL: CheshireMuse 1.3 women (ages 18 and over) in the United States are forcibly raped each minute. That translates to 78 per hour, 1,871 per day, or 683,000 per year. D.G. Kilpatrick, C.N. Edmunds, & A. Seymour. 1992. Rape in America: A Report to the Nation. Arlington VA: National Victim Center. [ It makes me so angry I could scream. Cheshire, I am sorry for your experience. It truly is a shame that sexual crimes are so rampant and infrequently reported or prosecuted. Your post, however, provides a clear example of how each of us address this issue from our own personal experience. Your anger is justified. Yet, when it is applied to those who have a different perspective it inhibits thoughtful discussion that addresses the topic and helps to educate and resolve issues. My intent or anger has nothing to do with inhibiting discussion or educating women on ways to avoid rape. It is a survivor's perspective on what has been posted here. As I said before, even though the disclaimers are put on every post ("I don't condone rape"), many posters then go on to say that because she was dressed "immodestly" or was at a party or was having drinks, then she shares responsibility for what happened to her. Which implies that she bears some of the burden of blame in what happened to her. Perhaps you didn't mean it to come off that way, but considering that 1 in 4 women (see RAINN for the 2006 stats from the US Dept of Justice) has been or will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime, it's a safe bet that there are many survivors of such crimes reading these words. Since survivors of rape struggle with guilt and shame over what happened to them, even the suggestion of blame is yet another wound in a very wounded soul. As I said, each of us come at this from our own experience. My experience stems from having lived a promiscuous lifestyle in my early adult years. I came to Christ and repented of that lifestyle. In more recent years, I supervised sex offenders on probation. I have interviewed countless victims and been actively involved in the treatment of men and women participating in treatment. I apologize if my comment seemed to imply that you were not contributing to the discussion. If I have a concern it's that for many people the emotions that are stirred from conversations like this tend to open wounds. The pain that comes out as a result often stifles others from commenting for fear of emotional reactions. I do understand your perspective that even hinting of blame opens wounds. As a PO, while writing pre-sentence reports to the court for making sentencing recommendations, the victim is never to be blamed. Yet, as a human being, I too can see in some instances where the victim played an active role in an offense. The person being sentenced is still criminally responsible for failing to do what's right and continuing to do what's wrong.

benelchi -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (1/8/2009 2:45:58 PM)
quote: My intent or anger has nothing to do with inhibiting discussion or educating women on ways to avoid rape. While that my not be your intent, the kind of reaction you have had does just exactly that. It scares people from even discussing the issue out of fear of hurting those who have been hurt in this way. I can tell you that months ago when this thread began, I was deeply hurt myself by some of the unfounded accusations that were made against me, many echoing the kind of insinuations made in your post. Again I, and many others who have posted in this thread, have not done so to assess blame for those who have already been raped! We have posted here because we believe this is an issue that should be raised with women BEFORE they are raped. As many have pointed out in this thread, the title of this thread has caused some to read a little too much into what others posted. And as I and others have said, many have not even voted in the poll because none of the choices reflect what we believe. quote: It is a survivor's perspective on what has been posted here. As I said before, even though the disclaimers are put on every post ("I don't condone rape"), many posters then go on to say that because she was dressed "immodestly" or was at a party or was having drinks, then she shares responsibility for what happened to her. Which implies that she bears some of the burden of blame in what happened to her. Perhaps you didn't mean it to come off that way, but considering that 1 in 4 women (see RAINN for the 2006 stats from the US Dept of Justice) has been or will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime, it's a safe bet that there are many survivors of such crimes reading these words. Since survivors of rape struggle with guilt and shame over what happened to them, even the suggestion of blame is yet another wound in a very wounded soul. I do understand that what you have posted was a survivors perspective, as was elastics. And real do feel for your perspective; I actually had to fight back tears when reading elastic's post months ago. However, I think it is important for those who have survived this to recognize the biases they bring because of their experience and to prevent those biases from allowing them to misread the motives of others. When your bias causes you to see evil where there was none and misread the motives of others then it is time to recognize that weakness and work hard to overcome it. When you are finding yourself angered because of misinterpretations you have made because of those biases, it is time to seek help. And by the way, that is something we should all do regardless of how we have been hurt (that is not an issue that only affects those who have been raped). If being previously hurt in anyway is causing us to hold unjust prejudices against others, we need to recognize it and address it, and not simply accept it as "the way it is".

CheshireMuse -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (1/8/2009 2:47:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: zamdad quote: ORIGINAL: CheshireMuse quote: ORIGINAL: zamdad quote: ORIGINAL: CheshireMuse 1.3 women (ages 18 and over) in the United States are forcibly raped each minute. That translates to 78 per hour, 1,871 per day, or 683,000 per year. D.G. Kilpatrick, C.N. Edmunds, & A. Seymour. 1992. Rape in America: A Report to the Nation. Arlington VA: National Victim Center. [ It makes me so angry I could scream. Cheshire, I am sorry for your experience. It truly is a shame that sexual crimes are so rampant and infrequently reported or prosecuted. Your post, however, provides a clear example of how each of us address this issue from our own personal experience. Your anger is justified. Yet, when it is applied to those who have a different perspective it inhibits thoughtful discussion that addresses the topic and helps to educate and resolve issues. My intent or anger has nothing to do with inhibiting discussion or educating women on ways to avoid rape. It is a survivor's perspective on what has been posted here. As I said before, even though the disclaimers are put on every post ("I don't condone rape"), many posters then go on to say that because she was dressed "immodestly" or was at a party or was having drinks, then she shares responsibility for what happened to her. Which implies that she bears some of the burden of blame in what happened to her. Perhaps you didn't mean it to come off that way, but considering that 1 in 4 women (see RAINN for the 2006 stats from the US Dept of Justice) has been or will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime, it's a safe bet that there are many survivors of such crimes reading these words. Since survivors of rape struggle with guilt and shame over what happened to them, even the suggestion of blame is yet another wound in a very wounded soul. As I said, each of us come at this from our own experience. My experience stems from having lived a promiscuous lifestyle in my early adult years. I came to Christ and repented of that lifestyle. In more recent years, I supervised sex offenders on probation. I have interviewed countless victims and been actively involved in the treatment of men and women participating in treatment. I apologize if my comment seemed to imply that you were not contributing to the discussion. If I have a concern it's that for many people the emotions that are stirred from conversations like this tend to open wounds. The pain that comes out as a result often stifles others from commenting for fear of emotional reactions. I do understand your perspective that even hinting of blame opens wounds. As a PO, while writing pre-sentence reports to the court for making sentencing recommendations, the victim is never to be blamed. Yet, as a human being, I too can see in some instances where the victim played an active role in an offense. The person being sentenced is still criminally responsible for failing to do what's right and continuing to do what's wrong. Then perhaps the victim isn't really the victim then.... perhaps they should be sentenced too. Because, logic seems to dictate that if a person contributes to a wrong done to them, they're actually an accessory to the crime, right?

CheshireMuse -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (1/8/2009 2:52:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: elastic quote: Since survivors of rape struggle with guilt and shame over what happened to them, even the suggestion of blame is yet another wound in a very wounded soul. i agree with this. in the end it doesn't matter what anyone is wearing or doing, they NEVER deserve to be assaulted. period. Thank you.... :-)

iwillfearnoevil -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (1/8/2009 3:02:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CheshireMuse Then perhaps the victim isn't really the victim then.... perhaps they should be sentenced too. Because, logic seems to dictate that if a person contributes to a wrong done to them, they're actually an accessory to the crime, right? no way CheshireMuse! i spoken about GPS units with a lot of people the last 4 months and almost everyone tells me that one should never leave the unit (or the mount) in plain sight in the car to avoid temptation by a potential thief. not sure if this has been in the news lately or some chain email, but it's crazy how many people mention it. anyways if i'm in a hurry one day and forget to put it away and someone breaks in i figure it was someone else made the choice to commit the crime, no way i should go to jail for being an accessory!

CheshireMuse -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (1/8/2009 3:03:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: iwillfearnoevil quote: ORIGINAL: CheshireMuse Then perhaps the victim isn't really the victim then.... perhaps they should be sentenced too. Because, logic seems to dictate that if a person contributes to a wrong done to them, they're actually an accessory to the crime, right? no way CheshireMuse! i spoken about GPS units with a lot of people the last 4 months and almost everyone tells me that one should never leave the unit (or the mount) in plain sight in the car to avoid temptation by a potential thief. not sure if this has been in the news lately or some chain email, but it's crazy how many people mention it. anyways if i'm in a hurry one day and forget to put it away. someone else made the choice to commit the crime, no way i should go to jail for being an accessory! Thats exactly my point. :-)

zamdad -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (1/8/2009 3:29:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CheshireMuse quote: ORIGINAL: iwillfearnoevil quote: ORIGINAL: CheshireMuse Then perhaps the victim isn't really the victim then.... perhaps they should be sentenced too. Because, logic seems to dictate that if a person contributes to a wrong done to them, they're actually an accessory to the crime, right? no way CheshireMuse! i spoken about GPS units with a lot of people the last 4 months and almost everyone tells me that one should never leave the unit (or the mount) in plain sight in the car to avoid temptation by a potential thief. not sure if this has been in the news lately or some chain email, but it's crazy how many people mention it. anyways if i'm in a hurry one day and forget to put it away. someone else made the choice to commit the crime, no way i should go to jail for being an accessory! Thats exactly my point. :-) The law does not look at the victim's part in the crime. In sentencing the victims role can be used as a mitigating factor, but the perp is still convicted. The other thing is that each case is different. I wrote a PSI on a guy who stabbed his wife. He's the one who committed the crime. Yet, all the things leading up to the commission of the crime were set up by the wife. Under the law, she would never have been charged because she was the victim of his outburst. Another man I supervised had multiple arrests for domestic assault. As a result of his convictions and his conditions of release, he was not allowed to possess or consume alcohol. The wife would go to the store and buy it for him. Then, they would argue and she would call the cops. And yet, it's his fault because he did not have to drink the beer, he did not have to argue with her. In sex crimes, as you correctly pointed out earlier, most victims know their perpetrator well. They are afraid to report for a number of reasons. But the OP asked about people dressing in ways that provoke lewd behavior. Based on my experience from my promiscuous days, I know that some people dress and behave in ways to elicit lust. The burden, however, falls on the the lusting person to control self when the stop sign is raised in front of them.

sunshinesoprano -> RE: Did She ASK for It? (1/9/2009 12:04:16 PM)
I'm going to chime back in here. Cheshire--I, too, am sorry you had to go through such a horrible thing. You, along with most rape victims are not in any way responsible for their rapes. There are some evil, evil people in this world who sickly get their kicks out of it and they need to be punished. NO ONE DESERVES TO BE ASSAULTED!!! NOTHING gives anyone the right to harm another person. However, we do live in a society where women who dress a certain way are perceived as easy and wanting a certain type of attention, as I've said before. While there are many people who are raped who DO NOT act in this way, there are many who do and I think people do need to think about their actions and act responsibly. One doesn't leave an open purse in the middle of a public place and not expect it to be taken or stolen from. By the same token, one can't dress like a hooker and expect they won't be treated or viewed as one. Again, this doesn't give anyone the right to assault you. However, just as unscrupulous people will steal the purse, unscrupulous people will rape you. If you make yourself a target, then you have to be responsible for your actions. It's a completely double-edged sword when it comes to this because there are those who are just living their lives as good people who are brutally attacked, and then there are those who want certain kinds of attention who often get more than they bargained for.

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