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[Poll]
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Did She ASK for It?
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| Yes, but the assailant is entirely responsible for his actions. |
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| Yes, she should know better & the case should be dropped. |
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| No, a woman should be able to dress as she pleases, regardless! |
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| No, but she should know that her behavior is irresponsible |
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Total Votes : 21
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(last vote on : 11/21/2008 1:33:55 PM)
(Poll ended: 11/21/2008 2:00:00 AM)
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/15/2008 8:04:18 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PrincessDonna
I didn't say it has no effect on anyone in any way. I said I do not believe it is the cause of most rapes. More times than not, I believe the dress of the victim has nothing to do with it.
I don't believe it is the cause of any rapes, but I do believe it is a factor in many (not all) rapes, and the evidence does seem to support than conclusion.
quote:
I believe God is concerned about modesty because it is a heart issue, not a clothing issue. I don't believe God is concerned with modesty because of anything to do with rape.
It is a heart issue because it is selfishly seeking the sexual attraction of men for whom such attention should not be sought. And while I certainly don't believe God's primary concern about modesty is because of rape, I do believe God understands that immodesty does place women at higher risk for abuse, manipulation, and yes even rape because such dress attracts those men who are in rebellion towards God while repelling those men who hold themselves accountable to God's standards. All of the men notice immodest dress, but it is the ungodly ones who will seek women who dress in this manner.
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/15/2008 8:14:19 PM
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StephK
Posts: 2770
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
If you believe that ALL women are unable to unable to control themselves and dress modestly and that ALL men are unable to control themselves and refrain from raping immodestly dressed women then yes, maybe such an extreme stand is warranted. However, I have far more faith that men and women can control themselves and submit their will to Christ's will. Simply put, I believe that both men and woman should take ownership of their own failures to the degree that they themselves have failed. Trying to excuse our own sin by blaming it on the sinful actions of another is as old as mankind; it began in the garden. "The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree and I ate" Ge. 3:12 Yes, Eve sinned, and Yes, Adam Sinned, and Yes, there sins were related to one another. Eve's sin wasn't absolved because Adam sinned, and Adam's sin wasn't absolved because Eve sinned. Each stood before God responsible for their own actions apart from the choice of the others involved.
To be clear: Yes, there are many woman who have been raped who are innocent before God for any participation in the circumstances that allowed for their rape; however, the OP doesn't address every rape, but rather the rape of women who are provocatively dressed. And while a woman choosing to immodestly and sinfully adorn herself SHOULD NOT ever be used as an excuse for rape, it should be realized that it does place her at higher risk for rape, just as in the example given earlier of a man walking around while displaying a big wad of cash places him at a higher risk of being robbed.
Women and men (men are raped too) should do all they can to lower their vulnerability but it still does not give anyone the right to sexually assault someone because of what a person was wearing.
.
Here's a few statistics and studies on the issue.
quote:
Utah State University Sexual Assault and Anti Violence Information
Myth: Rape victims provoke the attack by wearing provocative clothing
- A Federal Commission on Crime of Violence Study found that only
4.4% of all reported rapes involved provocative behavior on the part
of the victim. In murder cases 22% involved such behavior (as simple
as a glance).
- Most convicted rapists do not remember what their victims were wearing.
- Victims range in age from days old to those in their nineties,
hardly provocative dressers.
Utah State University
http://www.usu.edu/saavi/pdf/myths_facts.pdf
=========================================
Amnesty International in a national survey
34% believe women who flirt can be blamed if they are raped and 26%
say if a woman is in sexy clothing she is partly to blame
WOMEN who flirt, get drunk or wear sexy clothes are asking to be
raped, according to a shocking new survey.
More than a third of people - mainly males - believe girls trying to
chat up men are partially or totally responsible for being attacked.
A quarter reckon a woman wearing a provocative outfit is at least
partly to blame - especially if she has been drinking.
...
The disturbing attitudes towards rape and rape victims were uncovered
by Amnesty International in a national survey to promote its Stop
Violence Against Women campaign.
Spokeswoman Kate Allen said: "The poll shows a shocking proportion of
the public blame women for being raped. The Government must launch a
new drive to counteract this sexist culture."
Ms Allen added: "The poll highlights public ignorance of the problem
as well as the dreadfully low conviction rates.
Joanna Perry, policy manager at Victim Support, said: "It is alarming
to read that so many people seem to believe that a woman is
responsible for inviting a rape or sexual assault because of what she
was wearing, what she drank or how she behaved.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=16393921&method=full&siteid=94762&headline=asking-for-it-name_page.html
===============================================
Myths and Facts about Sexual Assault
You may have heard mistaken ideas about the crimes of rape and sexual
assault. Here are some of the myths followed by the real facts as
reported by the U.S. Department of Justice.
Myth: Victims provoke sexual assaults when they dress provocatively or
act in a promiscuous manner.
Fact: Rape and sexual assault are crimes of violence and control that
stem from a person's determination to exercise power over another.
Neither provocative dress nor promiscuous behavior are invitations for
unwanted sexual activity. Forcing someone to engage in non-consensual
sexual activity is sexual assault, regardless of the way that person
dresses or acts.
Sonoma State University: Women's Resource Center
http://www.sonoma.edu/campuslife/sv/myth.htm
=====================================================
MYTH: Provocative dress can cause a rape.
FACT: Victims are chosen because of their vulnerability, not because
they are sexually provocative.
Wichita State University
http://webs.wichita.edu/?u=police&p=/sexual_assault/
=====================================
Most sexual assault victims are wearing regular clothes like blue
jeans or pajamas when they are assaulted, not provocative clothing.
Prevention Pathways
http://pathwayscourses.samhsa.gov/vawp/vawp_supps_pg11.htm
_____________________________
Stephanie
Envy is always referred to by its political alias, "social justice."
~ Thomas Sowell
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/15/2008 8:38:10 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
If you believe that ALL women are unable to unable to control themselves and dress modestly and that ALL men are unable to control themselves and refrain from raping immodestly dressed women then yes, maybe such an extreme stand is warranted. However, I have far more faith that men and women can control themselves and submit their will to Christ's will. Simply put, I believe that both men and woman should take ownership of their own failures to the degree that they themselves have failed. Trying to excuse our own sin by blaming it on the sinful actions of another is as old as mankind; it began in the garden. "The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree and I ate" Ge. 3:12 Yes, Eve sinned, and Yes, Adam Sinned, and Yes, there sins were related to one another. Eve's sin wasn't absolved because Adam sinned, and Adam's sin wasn't absolved because Eve sinned. Each stood before God responsible for their own actions apart from the choice of the others involved.
To be clear: Yes, there are many woman who have been raped who are innocent before God for any participation in the circumstances that allowed for their rape; however, the OP doesn't address every rape, but rather the rape of women who are provocatively dressed. And while a woman choosing to immodestly and sinfully adorn herself SHOULD NOT ever be used as an excuse for rape, it should be realized that it does place her at higher risk for rape, just as in the example given earlier of a man walking around while displaying a big wad of cash places him at a higher risk of being robbed.
Women and men (men are raped too) should do all they can to lower their vulnerability but it still does not give anyone the right to sexually assault someone because of what a person was wearing.
Agreed, I don't know how many times I must agree with this point before you accept the fact that I am not condoning rape because someone dresses provocatively!
However, what I am saying is that a woman who does choose to dress provocatively (sinfully according to the bible) does increase her risk of being raped, and she should understand that she is to blame for increasing her risk.
quote:
Here's a few statistics and studies on the issue.
These are the "politically correct" statistics, but these are not the statistics that are supported by the real studies on rape. Here is an article that discusses some the problems with the "politically correct" statistics.
Note: none of the statistics quoted in your post provide sources that allow these claims to be varified. This is typical of the "politically correct" statistics because it is the montra that matters, and not the facts.
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/15/2008 10:20:52 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BugLady
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
I agree with you totally. Predators are predators, and they'll come up with any excuse to commit their crimes. I really doubt that clothing had much to do with any rape cases.
Why then is rape so prevalent among sex workers?
Perhaps it has something do with the fact that the clientele in the sex trade have "issues" to begin with. The victims may be at greater risk because of their "occupation, but it has little to do with how they are dressed. The sex industry is violent by its nature. Some women may turn to this type of work voluntarily, but many do not.
While I would agree that the higher rate of rape of women in the sex trade is a result of many factors including environment, drugs and alcohol, etc... I do not believe the evidence would allow one to simply dismiss provocative dress as a risk factor for becoming a target of rape. The influence of a provocatively dressed woman is widely exploited in advertising because it is known to be a powerful influence, why would it be less influential to a man in a strip club who was considering rape?
Just out of curiosity, what percentage of men who have raped women in the sex trade do you believe have also raped plainly and modestly dressed woman?
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/15/2008 10:26:44 PM
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CoeurdeLeon_
Posts: 6415
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
Status: offline
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What percentage of rape victims have been "provocatively dressed"? When victims run the gamut from infants to the elderly, I would think that the common factors are 1) vulnerability and 2) opportunity rather than what any of them were wearing.
_____________________________
This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
New Blog
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/15/2008 10:43:03 PM
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Prairiehiker
Posts: 4012
Status: offline
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quote:
Just out of curiosity, what percentage of men who have raped women in the sex trade do you believe have also raped plainly and modestly dressed woman?
Just how many of these men have been exposed to provocatively dressed women who are not in the sex trade and didn't rape them?
_____________________________
Search me, Oh God, and know my heart
Try me, and know my anxieties;
And see if there is any wicked way in me, and
Lead me in the way everlasting Psalm 139:22-24
-------------------------------------
Go Steelers!!!
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/15/2008 10:45:16 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
What percentage of rape victims have been "provocatively dressed"? When victims run the gamut from infants to the elderly, I would think that the common factors are 1) vulnerability and 2) opportunity rather than what any of them were wearing.
As I understand it, the vast majority, who are not children, would fall into the category of provocatively dressed women. The largest categories being those in the sex trade, and those in the college party scene.
Yes, there are women and (especially) children who are innocent of any wrong doing who still get raped, but that is not the question of this thread. The question is whether those women who choose to dress provocatively increase their risk of becoming a victim of rape. And if we accept that the bible teaches that provocative dress is sinful, does the sinful behavior of women who dress this way cause them to share some blame when the circumstance arises. To reiterate for clarity, I am not in anyway suggesting that a woman who dresses this way deserves to be raped, should expect to be raped, or that her dress in any way absolves a rapist of his responsibility for his actions.
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/15/2008 10:45:56 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2923
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
No.
quote:
I think fathers and husbands should have the right to have some control over where the women they are responsible for can go.
Interesting. Please explain.
If I am to be responsible for your actions, then it is only reasonable that I should have some control over those actions. The Scriptures hold men responsible for the women and female children in their households. Therefore, the men of the house have the right to decide on such matters as dress and travel. If a woman wishes to be responsible for herself, that is fine. However, she can not then turn to a man and expect him to clean up any trouble she might get into.
What is interesting about our society is that it has adopted the principle of "women and children first" when it comes to rights and privileges, but holds men responsible when things go wrong. I am talking about innocent men here.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 11/15/2008 10:53:10 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/15/2008 10:50:50 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker
quote:
Just out of curiosity, what percentage of men who have raped women in the sex trade do you believe have also raped plainly and modestly dressed woman?
Just how many of these men have been exposed to provocatively dressed women who are not in the sex trade and didn't rape them?
Good question, my guess would be that given an equal opportunity the results would be quite similar. My guess is that those who would rape women in the sex trade would likely be the same ones who would resort to date rape drugs in other circumstances.
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/15/2008 11:00:58 PM
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CoeurdeLeon_
Posts: 6415
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
What percentage of rape victims have been "provocatively dressed"? When victims run the gamut from infants to the elderly, I would think that the common factors are 1) vulnerability and 2) opportunity rather than what any of them were wearing.
As I understand it, the vast majority, who are not children, would fall into the category of provocatively dressed women. The largest categories being those in the sex trade, and those in the college party scene.
Yes, there are women and (especially) children who are innocent of any wrong doing who still get raped, but that is not the question of this thread. The question is whether those women who choose to dress provocatively increase their risk of becoming a victim of rape. And if we accept that the bible teaches that provocative dress is sinful, does the sinful behavior of women who dress this way cause them to share some blame when the circumstance arises. To reiterate for clarity, I am not in anyway suggesting that a woman who dresses this way deserves to be raped, should expect to be raped, or that her dress in any way absolves a rapist of his responsibility for his actions.
I'm not quite sure how we can pick out a subset of rape victims, exclude the other factors they had in common with all rape victims (vulnerability, predator opportunity), and say that this particular subset shares blame with the rapist.
Assuming that you are correct about the largest categories, the sex industry and colleges would be prime targets for predators because of the increased opportunity. They are riskier environments.
_____________________________
This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
New Blog
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/15/2008 11:12:38 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 12136
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Here, now
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See, the way the OP is worded is going to get people upset, although I don't think that is the OP's intent.
The OP didn't ask about young children or old ladies. The OP didn't ask about modestly-dressed women who are just going about their business and get attacked.
The OP asked if a woman was dressed provocatively and was sexually assaulted, was she asking for it?
There are two conditions there that leave out those who are not dressed provocatively, and those who are not sexually assaulted.
And, since the OP (and most of the statistics) do not define "sexually assaulted," We can either assume that it means a violent sexual attack, in which case the answer is no, because no one asks for that, or, as the article Benelchi linked to (and what I have seen mostly) we can include "regretted" sexual activity--which fries my onion that it gets included in statistics.
I think a majority of the "regretted sexual activity" occurs when the women are dressed provocatively. And I, personally do not see it as sexual assault, but remind your sons that the law does.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/15/2008 11:13:07 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
I'm not quite sure how we can pick out a subset of rape victims, exclude the other factors they had in common with all rape victims (vulnerability, predator opportunity), and say that this particular subset shares blame with the rapist.
Assuming that you are correct about the largest categories, the sex industry and colleges would be prime targets for predators because of the increased opportunity.
And I am flabbergasted that so many women appear not to believe that dressing provocatively would increase a their risk for becoming a target of rape.
Do women really not realize how powerful of an influence that a provocatively dressed woman can be?
Do women really believe that a rapist is somehow better able to resist the temptation of a provocatively dressed woman than the average man is?
Do women really not believe that the bible commands them to dress modestly?
Do women really believe there is not negative consequences to choosing to dress in a manner that is outside of God's will?
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/15/2008 11:15:44 PM
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CoeurdeLeon_
Posts: 6415
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
Status: offline
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Do men really believe they aren't responsible for themselves?
Do men really believe that rape is about sex and not about control and violence?
_____________________________
This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
New Blog
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/15/2008 11:17:37 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 12136
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Here, now
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Again, we really need to define our terms before we can have a rational discussion....
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/15/2008 11:19:04 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2923
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
Do men really believe they aren't responsible for themselves?
Do men really believe that rape is about sex and not about control and violence?
We are not talking about men being responsible for themselves. We are talking whether a woman is responsible for herself or she should be protected by another regardless of her actions.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/15/2008 11:19:49 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
Do men really believe they aren't responsible for themselves?
Where did that come from? I have stated quite the opposite of this over and over in this thread!
quote:
Do men really believe that rape is about sex and not about control and violence?
While control and violence are a large part of rape, men understand that rape is not only about control and violence. There are plenty of non-sexual avenues for men to commit acts of control and violence that are apart from sex.
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/15/2008 11:33:01 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
A rapist generally doesn't rape because he is sexually tempted. He rapes because he wants to victimize someone.
This is one example of those things that are commonly repeated by organizations supporting rape victims, but not supported by any of the studies on rape. One of the most common and growing forms of rape today is "date rape" especially with the aid of "date rape drugs". These rapes are almost always sexually motivated.
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/15/2008 11:34:50 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4161
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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Actually, the OP says:
quote:
If a female (of any age) dresses provocatively and she is a victim of a sexual assualt, do you think she is subject to any blame at all for provoking or causing the assault?
That assumes some people might consider a cut-off age, but what could it be? 10? 14? 80? Maybe you're only asking for it if you're 20-40?
"Provacatively" is subjective, so talking about modesty isn't productive.
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/15/2008 11:41:11 PM
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CoeurdeLeon_
Posts: 6415
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
Status: offline
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Benelchi, I say you have the cause and effect wrong.
Women get raped where there are sexual predators.
Sexual predators go where there is the best opportunity.
A woman in a place where there are no rapists won't get raped no matter what she is or isn't wearing.
A woman in a place where there is a rapist is a potential victim based on her vulnerability not her ensemble.
_____________________________
This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
New Blog
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/15/2008 11:41:21 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 12136
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Here, now
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
Actually, the OP says:
quote:
If a female (of any age) dresses provocatively and she is a victim of a sexual assualt, do you think she is subject to any blame at all for provoking or causing the assault?
That assumes some people might consider a cut-off age, but what could it be? 10? 14? 80? Maybe you're only asking for it if you're 20-40?
"Provacatively" is subjective, so talking about modesty isn't productive.
My mistake. But young children are generally dressed by their parents, and an 80-year-old woman in a merry widow and satin tap pants would be most likely to provoke nausea than anything else...
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/15/2008 11:43:01 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
Benelchi, I say you have the cause and effect wrong.
Women get raped where there are sexual predators.
Sexual predators go where there is the best opportunity.
...And they have the best opportunity because the women there have chosen to compromise godly standards both in dress and in behavior.
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