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[Poll]
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Did She ASK for It?
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| Yes, but the assailant is entirely responsible for his actions. |
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| Yes, she should know better & the case should be dropped. |
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| No, a woman should be able to dress as she pleases, regardless! |
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| No, but she should know that her behavior is irresponsible |
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Total Votes : 21
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(last vote on : 11/21/2008 1:33:55 PM)
(Poll ended: 11/21/2008 2:00:00 AM)
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/16/2008 11:15:17 AM
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hnt
Posts: 660
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
Do men really believe they aren't responsible for themselves?
Do men really believe that rape is about sex and not about control and violence?
We are not talking about men being responsible for themselves. We are talking whether a woman is responsible for herself or she should be protected by another regardless of her actions.
This is another point that confuses me.
Why it is we shouldn't be talking about men being responsible for themselves? It does take two. I know some men in my life if women walked around them with nothing on they wouldn't rape them.
Rapists will go after whomever. I don't think anyone can question that people CAN place themselves in a position that is not the best. The fact that rape doesn't always happen in those kinds of circumstances should show part of that theory isn't correct.
Are you saying you should only care for the ones that were dressed to your standards, and places where you feel are correct? Would God only mourn the rape of those individuals, and not mourn for those that made mistakes that you are attempting to point out?
If a women is raped YES I do think she needed to be cared for regardless of how you feel she may have been dressed. Do you seriously think Jesus would leave her alone? If you are talking consquences - she will get those regardles of your care.
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Emotional abuse and Faith
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/16/2008 11:15:37 AM
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CoeurdeLeon_
Posts: 6415
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
We're coming at it from completely different viewpoints. I assert that the increased opportunity is there because there is a concentration of women on their own, away from family and friends, circumstances necessitating that they are frequently alone and very accessible to a predator. In my view, that is what makes those venues more appealing to predators not the garb of the victims.
Why do you then believe that some women choose to dress so provocatively if you believe it has no effect on the men who see them?
Did I say it has NO effect? I think it's not only possible but probable that, while most women want to be seen as attractive, 100% of them would prefer not to be raped.
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/16/2008 11:18:58 AM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4163
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
Almost all of the divorced men that I personally know, are divorced because their wives chose to involve themselves in affairs with other men and leave the marriage. Is it valid for me to conclude that most married woman are unfaithful to their faithful husbands based on my very limited sample? Doesn't it seem more reasonable for me to look at samples that are far larger than my personal experience allows? Or do you believe that it would be OK for me to conclude that all woman have a natural an inherent need to cheat on their spouses without caring to validate the legitimacy of the sample on which I based that conclusion.
Your observation is actually relevant to this conversation, although I don't know what kinds of statistics are available for women who cheat v. men who cheat. I don't know any woman who has been sexually assaulted that doesn't continue to have difficulty in relationships (to some extent) for years, sometimes their whole lives. (Sometimes husbands don't even know what has happened to their wives.) It plays out in ways like multiple marriages, increased promiscuity, asexuality, depression, anxiety, aggression, etc.
Again, dressing provocatively is subjective. And as a woman, I submit to you that anything I wear is irrelevant when it comes to rape. Until the OP defines the dress he is referring to, those kinds of assertions can't be made.
(And don't get me wrong, I have no tolerance for anyone who cheats on a spouse and doesn't take seriously a covenant.)
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/16/2008 11:21:41 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
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quote:
Think about what you just said here. The person brings with them 'date rape drugs', and you don't think that shows wanting to 'victimize'? The fact they are even in poscession of them show intent! Does poscession of this drug not show intent to you? Just curious!
I never said that a rapist didn't intend to commit a crime. The question is whether dressing provocatively increases the likelihood of a particular woman becoming the victim.
quote:
The only problem I have with the dress being this huge issue is when I ready about different countries. In the middle east we have all read how women are covered from head to toe. They feel if they see an ankle that 'asking for it'. Are we saying they have different types of rapist's there?
No, I don't believe this represents a "different type" of rapist. However, too often I see this example used to demonstrate why no standard of modesty should ever be upheld. The idea that is often presented is that if an exposed ankle can be construed as immodest then no standard of modesty should ever be advocated for society. The problem is that the bible clearly teaches that modesty is standard to which we must hold ourselves, and so we cannot simply use arguments like this to dismiss the idea that modesty is something that is attainable.
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/16/2008 11:25:06 AM
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huangshan
Posts: 2308
Joined: 8/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hnt
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
A rapist generally doesn't rape because he is sexually tempted. He rapes because he wants to victimize someone.
This is one example of those things that are commonly repeated by organizations supporting rape victims, but not supported by any of the studies on rape. One of the most common and growing forms of rape today is "date rape" especially with the aid of "date rape drugs". These rapes are almost always sexually motivated.
Think about what you just said here. The person brings with them 'date rape drugs', and you don't think that shows wanting to 'victimize'? The fact they are even in poscession of them show intent! Does poscession of this drug not show intent to you? Just curious!
The only problem I have with the dress being this huge issue is when I ready about different countries. In the middle east we have all read how women are covered from head to toe. They feel if they see an ankle that 'asking for it'. Are we saying they have different types of rapist's there?
Intent to have sex, yes. And yes, this would incidentally make the rape-ee a victim (of rape).
Are you using some odd definition of "victimize" that means something other than "to make a victim of"? You realize that there has to be something for someone to be a victim of. Coerced sex, rape, for example. A victim of assault, or murder, or theft, for example. "Victimization" by itself is saying very little.
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/16/2008 11:25:53 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
We're coming at it from completely different viewpoints. I assert that the increased opportunity is there because there is a concentration of women on their own, away from family and friends, circumstances necessitating that they are frequently alone and very accessible to a predator. In my view, that is what makes those venues more appealing to predators not the garb of the victims.
Why do you then believe that some women choose to dress so provocatively if you believe it has no effect on the men who see them?
Did I say it has NO effect? I think it's not only possible but probable that, while most women want to be seen as attractive, 100% of them would prefer not to be raped.
I have never disputed that fact.
I think it's not only possible, but probable that, while men who display wads of cash want to be seen as successful, 100% of them would prefer not to be robbed.
The issue is not a question of what these men and woman want, but whether there choice to act in sin put them at greater risk for victimization.
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/16/2008 11:27:49 AM
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CoeurdeLeon_
Posts: 6415
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
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quote:
The problem is that the bible clearly teaches that modesty is standard to which we must hold ourselves, and so we cannot simply use arguments like this to dismiss the idea that modesty is something that is attainable.
I don't see that anyone is arguing these points.
But we're talking about sexual assault and the propensity of society, especially Christian society, to blame the victim.
Holding non-Christian girls up to a Christian standard of modesty (which is totally subjective anyway) doesn't make sense.
_____________________________
This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/16/2008 11:29:40 AM
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hnt
Posts: 660
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
The more vulnerable woman would be chosen. Attackers choose victims based on their vulnerability, IOW who appears to be the easiest to overcome.
Again, this is another myth that is not supported by the rape studies. Only a very small number of rapist choose their victims in this manner i.e. the ones who are going to grab an anonymous woman and pull her into the bushes. However, this accounts for only a small percentage of rape cases. Most rapes are perpetrated by relatives or dates, and their victims are seldom chosen because they are more vulnerable.
That also doesn't make sense to me.
Just because people choose their victims - relatives or dates - doesn't mean they don't see them as more vulnerable.
If you are going to rape - not matter WHAT the circumstance...you aren't right in your head! They aren't going to take on someone that might be more of a challege than they can handle. I'm sure there are some sicko's that love the fight as well, but I can't see the majority of people wanting to take on relatives or dates that they feel won't keep their secret afterwards. If they can do the deed and intimidate them into silence - so much the better.
I mean if you are a rapist are you going to take on a strong women that you know will blast you afterwards, or take on that other one that is going to be easier to manipulate and scare half to death?
_____________________________
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Emotional abuse and Faith
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/16/2008 11:33:15 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
That also doesn't make sense to me.
Just because people choose their victims - relatives or dates - doesn't mean they don't see them as more vulnerable.
If you are going to rape - not matter WHAT the circumstance...you aren't right in your head! They aren't going to take on someone that might be more of a challege than they can handle. I'm sure there are some sicko's that love the fight as well, but I can't see the majority of people wanting to take on relatives or dates that they feel won't keep their secret afterwards. If they can do the deed and intimidate them into silence - so much the better.
I mean if you are a rapist are you going to take on a strong women that you know will blast you afterwards, or take on that other one that is going to be easier to manipulate and scare half to death?
The fastest growing rape group in America is those who have been raped using date rape drugs. The victims are seldom chosen because they are more vulnerable, but rather because of how they look. Their appearance is the number one factor in these kinds of rapes.
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/16/2008 11:33:36 AM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4163
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
The only problem I have with the dress being this huge issue is when I ready about different countries. In the middle east we have all read how women are covered from head to toe. They feel if they see an ankle that 'asking for it'. Are we saying they have different types of rapist's there?
No, I don't believe this represents a "different type" of rapist. However, too often I see this example used to demonstrate why no standard of modesty should ever be upheld. The idea that is often presented is that if an exposed ankle can be construed as immodest then no standard of modesty should ever be advocated for society. The problem is that the bible clearly teaches that modesty is standard to which we must hold ourselves, and so we cannot simply use arguments like this to dismiss the idea that modesty is something that is attainable.
I think it is used as an example because it seems Christian men like to throw around women dressing immodestly as the reason for their stumbling and failure without taking responsibility for themselves. The truth is, modesty in dress is a heart issue between a woman and God; likewise, a man's inability to control his thought life is between him and God.
Also, some of those statistics I was reading indicate that rape and sexual assault has decreased 60% since 1993. That doesn't jive with the idea that women are dressing "more provocatively" in our depraved world, even though I hear plenty of complaints about it.
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/16/2008 11:36:12 AM
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CoeurdeLeon_
Posts: 6415
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
That also doesn't make sense to me.
Just because people choose their victims - relatives or dates - doesn't mean they don't see them as more vulnerable.
If you are going to rape - not matter WHAT the circumstance...you aren't right in your head! They aren't going to take on someone that might be more of a challege than they can handle. I'm sure there are some sicko's that love the fight as well, but I can't see the majority of people wanting to take on relatives or dates that they feel won't keep their secret afterwards. If they can do the deed and intimidate them into silence - so much the better.
I mean if you are a rapist are you going to take on a strong women that you know will blast you afterwards, or take on that other one that is going to be easier to manipulate and scare half to death?
The fastest growing rape group in America is those who have been raped using date rape drugs. The victims are seldom chosen because they are more vulnerable, but rather because of how they look. Their appearance is the number one factor in these kinds of rapes.
But if someone shows up prepared with a date rape drug, it wouldn't matter if all the women wore sacks, one of them will be a victim.
_____________________________
This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/16/2008 11:41:02 AM
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CoeurdeLeon_
Posts: 6415
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From: Inside my head
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Benelchi, I think you see the bigger picture as this being an argument for women to dress contrary to God's command.
Would that be a fair statement?
I see the bigger picture as this being an argument to excuse criminal behavior and blame the victim.
Do you see where I'm coming from?
_____________________________
This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
New Blog
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/16/2008 11:46:09 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
I think it is used as an example because it seems Christian men like to throw around women dressing immodestly as the reason for their stumbling and failure without taking responsibility for themselves. The truth is, modesty in dress is a heart issue between a woman and God; likewise, a man's inability to control his thought life is between him and God.
This is one of the most pernicious lies of our culture today. Yes, men should always submit their thought life to God no matter how the women around them choose to dress, BUT how a woman chooses to dress makes it either easier are more difficult for a man to submit his thoughts to God. Woman can and do use their sexuality to tempt men into sin, and they do bare some responsibility for their sinful actions. This does not diminish the responsibility of the man for his own failings, but it is a lie to say that the woman who sinned had no part in it!
quote:
Also, some of those statistics I was reading indicate that rape and sexual assault has decreased 60% since 1993. That doesn't jive with the idea that women are dressing "more provocatively" in our depraved world, even though I hear plenty of complaints about it.
Take a closer look at why some statistics have shown decreases. It is not because the rates have fallen, but because many of the categorizations of rape used in earlier statistics were invalid. Earlier statistics often classified as rape those who got drunk, had sex, and then regretted doing so the following day. Modern studies on rape have attempted to avoid misclassifying "regreted sex" as rape.
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/16/2008 11:48:14 AM
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solo_soprano23
Posts: 2082
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
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quote:
The issue is not a question of what these men and woman want, but whether there choice to act in sin put them at greater risk for victimization.
I see what you're saying. I have friends who routinely go out less than decent in order to get male attention. I think they have some self-esteem stuff going on, but still, they go out dressed certain ways according to what they're trying to do. I think they fail to realize that the kind of attention they get might not be the best kind of attention. I know men have seen something they liked and gone after it... thinking they were easy or loose. I can see how the way they dress (when they choose to do so) attracts that kind of attention in the first place, which can lead to some bad problems later. None that I know of have been raped, and I don't think the woman would be to blame, even if her choice of clothing wasn't great. I just agree that women might dress in such a way that gets them negative and harmful attention to begin with.
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/16/2008 11:48:47 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
Benelchi, I think you see the bigger picture as this being an argument for women to dress contrary to God's command.
Would that be a fair statement?
Yes, that would be a fair statement.
quote:
I see the bigger picture as this being an argument to excuse criminal behavior and blame the victim.
Do you see where I'm coming from?
I do see that is where you are coming from, but I am not sure how you arrived there. I have tried hard to be clear that there is no excuse for rape (not even provocative dress or drunkenness).
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/16/2008 11:50:16 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
quote:
The issue is not a question of what these men and woman want, but whether there choice to act in sin put them at greater risk for victimization.
I see what you're saying. I have friends who routinely go out less than decent in order to get male attention. I think they have some self-esteem stuff going on, but still, they go out dressed certain ways according to what they're trying to do. I think they fail to realize that the kind of attention they get might not be the best kind of attention. I know men have seen something they liked and gone after it... thinking they were easy or loose. I can see how the way they dress (when they choose to do so) attracts that kind of attention in the first place, which can lead to some bad problems later. None that I know of have been raped, and I don't think the woman would be to blame, even if her choice of clothing wasn't great. I just agree that women might dress in such a way that gets them negative and harmful attention to begin with.
I agree with you 100%
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/16/2008 11:52:51 AM
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CoeurdeLeon_
Posts: 6415
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
Benelchi, I think you see the bigger picture as this being an argument for women to dress contrary to God's command.
Would that be a fair statement?
Yes, that would be a fair statement.
quote:
I see the bigger picture as this being an argument to excuse criminal behavior and blame the victim.
Do you see where I'm coming from?
I do see that is where you are coming from, but I am not sure how you arrived there. I have tried hard to be clear that there is no excuse for rape (not even provocative dress or drunkenness).
I don't think that you are advocating blaming the victim. I'm talking about the whole thread in general. However, IMHO, your arguments support that kind of mindset and thinking. What you think you are saying is not coming through loud and clear IMO.
_____________________________
This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
New Blog
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/16/2008 11:56:27 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BugLady
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
That also doesn't make sense to me.
Just because people choose their victims - relatives or dates - doesn't mean they don't see them as more vulnerable.
If you are going to rape - not matter WHAT the circumstance...you aren't right in your head! They aren't going to take on someone that might be more of a challege than they can handle. I'm sure there are some sicko's that love the fight as well, but I can't see the majority of people wanting to take on relatives or dates that they feel won't keep their secret afterwards. If they can do the deed and intimidate them into silence - so much the better.
I mean if you are a rapist are you going to take on a strong women that you know will blast you afterwards, or take on that other one that is going to be easier to manipulate and scare half to death?
The fastest growing rape group in America is those who have been raped using date rape drugs. The victims are seldom chosen because they are more vulnerable, but rather because of how they look. Their appearance is the number one factor in these kinds of rapes.
The mere fact the assailant is using a stupifying drug to render their victim helpless shows the act is still more about control than sex.
It simply shows that he need to have someway to control her in order to have sex; it doesn't show that it was more about control that it was about sex.
quote:
None of the date rape victims I came in contact with were what I'd consider provocatively dressed.
Most studies I have seen that deal with date rape demonstrate something different, so I would have to ask:
How big is your sample size?
What do you consider provocative?
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/16/2008 12:03:51 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4163
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
I think it is used as an example because it seems Christian men like to throw around women dressing immodestly as the reason for their stumbling and failure without taking responsibility for themselves. The truth is, modesty in dress is a heart issue between a woman and God; likewise, a man's inability to control his thought life is between him and God.
This is one of the most pernicious lies of our culture today. Yes, men should always submit their thought life to God no matter how the women around them choose to dress, BUT how a woman chooses to dress makes it either easier are more difficult for a man to submit his thoughts to God.
But that's what I'm saying...for some men, it is never enough. A burka wouldn't be enough, anything less is "sexually suggestive." Christian women, if we were to take the comments I've read on this board over the years at face value, will never be able to win. We will always bear much of the fault for our brothers "stumbling," no matter what we were wearing in the first place.
And that's why I believe we see threads like this, where there is any suggestion that a woman who was raped somehow had it coming and was at fault.
quote:
Woman/men can and do use their sexuality to tempt men/women into sin, and they do bare some responsibility for their sinful actions. This does not diminish the responsibility of the man/woman for his/her own failings, but it is a lie to say that the woman/man who sinned had no part in it!
Goes both ways.
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