Who should be allowed to attend church? (Full Version)

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stellaluna -> Who should be allowed to attend church? (11/17/2008 11:25:08 AM)

This topic has come up in several threads around the board of late, but I can't find a generic thread for it. Some believe church is only for believers, some believe everyone should be allowed at all times. Some believe membership is only for believers, some believe it isn't. etc.

I personally believe that no one should be turned away from the church, but I also believe membership is for believers only. And I also believe that leadership positions should be filled only by members.



Mark328 -> RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? (11/17/2008 11:49:20 AM)

Everybody should be allowed the opportunity to attend church. Church is the medium for non-believers to learn about God. If non-believers get turned away, then that church has failed in witnessing to non-believers. Now granted, there are other means to reach out to non-believers, but there's no reason to not welcome them to church.

I do agree that believing is the most fundamental requirement for membership, though.



stellaluna -> RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? (11/17/2008 12:13:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark328
Everybody should be allowed the opportunity to attend church. Church is the medium for non-believers to learn about God. If non-believers get turned away, then that church has failed in witnessing to non-believers. Now granted, there are other means to reach out to non-believers, but there's no reason to not welcome them to church.

Some would disagree with this. I have read many times around here and also talked to people IRL who don't think that the gathering of a church body is to do outreach. I kind of see that point, because I think that's how you get "seeker-friendly" churches and you leave the meat out for the believers who attend.

I'm not sure how I feel about regular Sunday services being outreach...but I do know that I would not be happy attending a church that was preaching the salvation message over and over every week.



bolt. -> RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? (11/17/2008 12:29:19 PM)

Silly Stella... there's no such thing as attending Church.

Believers ARE Church, and unbelievers are not...

But there's no reason that unbelievers should not hang out, watch and go-along with what the Church is doing at any given time. So there's no reason that unbelievers should not come along to what we are currently calling 'worship services'.



Mark328 -> RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? (11/17/2008 12:38:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellaluna

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark328
Everybody should be allowed the opportunity to attend church. Church is the medium for non-believers to learn about God. If non-believers get turned away, then that church has failed in witnessing to non-believers. Now granted, there are other means to reach out to non-believers, but there's no reason to not welcome them to church.

Some would disagree with this. I have read many times around here and also talked to people IRL who don't think that the gathering of a church body is to do outreach. I kind of see that point, because I think that's how you get "seeker-friendly" churches and you leave the meat out for the believers who attend.

I'm not sure how I feel about regular Sunday services being outreach...but I do know that I would not be happy attending a church that was preaching the salvation message over and over every week.


I guess I should have made myself a little more clear. You bring up an excellent point about "seeker-friendly" churches, I have been to a couple of those myself, and the meat was missing, that's for sure!

What I meant was, that, if a non-believer wanted to attend, to see what church and christianity are all about, then I don't have a problem with that at all. That's how I ended up coming to Christ. I attended a service, had come questions about Jesus, God and the Bible, and the church recommended a new believer's class that they held every Thursday night. It was there that I converted to Christianity. I hope that clears up what I stated earlier?



DaveW -> RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? (11/17/2008 12:46:43 PM)

Dan Juster makes an interesting point about so-called seeker friendly churches: many or most should actually be categorized as "lazy christian" churches. If someone is truly seeking, they will not be put off by regular type services or even hard preaching.

I can see a place for an open meeting where preaching and teaching take place, and the occasional "closed" meeting to discuss congregational business, like an annual budget meeting, or if a harsh discipline has to be meted out.



Ruthie -> RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? (11/17/2008 1:16:50 PM)

The very idea that unbelievers aren't welcome in church is abhorrent, loathsome and disgusting. [:'(]

If a person comes looking for truth, woe to those that dare stand between that person and God.

Please note however, that I am equally disgusted by watered down doctrine. Proper teaching on sin sorts out those who are looking for God and those that are looking for a social club.



Consecrated2God -> RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? (11/17/2008 1:37:15 PM)

I thought this was going to be about pedophiles at first.

I agree with stellaluna--anyone should be allowed to attend the meetings (maybe with a few exceptions--for example if someone was there with the purpose of disrupting the meeting) but the meeting is designed for believers.



doinkdom -> RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? (11/17/2008 2:42:48 PM)

Our Sunday worship is open to everyone regardless of salvation status, financial status or lottery numbers. [:D]

Our mid-week care group is open to everyone, but there are cautions in place. I.e. we celebrate the Lord's table in our small groups because it is a "family" remembrance...however, we do fence the table in our group in the event of a non-believing visitor so they are informed of what we're doing.

Only members hold any position of leadership. I mean why would a body commit resources to someone who is not willing to commit back by being a member?



stellaluna -> RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? (11/17/2008 2:45:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
I thought this was going to be about pedophiles at first.

[sm=eek.gif]

quote:

ORIGINAL: doinkdom
Only members hold any position of leadership. I mean why would a body commit resources to someone who is not willing to commit back by being a member?

I think that, too, and I think people in a position of leadership should be held to a higher standard. Well, you can't hold someone who is an unbeliever to a higher standard, that's for sure, and someone who isn't a member might decide one day to just stop coming and go somewhere else. There is no investment.



rcjames -> RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? (11/17/2008 2:52:08 PM)

Church by definition is a gathering of the Saints.

So Saints should be the ones gathering.

Allowing the unrepentant, unsaved to be part of the Chruch is counter-Scripture.

If someone comes seeking and wants to repent; then welcome them.

Otherwise they are going to be divisive and Scripture plainly tells us;

(Tit 3:10) A sectarian man, after a first and second admonition be rejecting,

Christ first laid out this principle here in;

(Mat 10:12) And coming to the house salute it,

(Mat 10:13) and if indeed the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it; and if it be not worthy, let your peace turn back to you.

(Mat 10:14) `And whoever may not receive you nor hear your words, coming forth from that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet,

(Mat 10:15) verily I say to you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.

If folks are truely seeking God then recieve them; if not then reject them.

Thanks
RC



doinkdom -> RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? (11/17/2008 2:56:41 PM)

We always assume someone is being drawn by God in the first place...unless it is proven otherwise by the lack of fruit etc. after an appropriate time in fellowship as a visitor.

That may or may not be evident in a first time visitor. So, we cannot make that assumption which is why we use our care groups to practice the Lord's table, etc. and not Sunday morning.



Consecrated2God -> RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? (11/17/2008 3:09:27 PM)

I think some people come to church to observe for a time, to see if Christianity is something they are interested in or not. I think other people come because they want their children to be raised in church, but they aren't believers themselves. People who are quasi-open to Christianity but aren't disturbing anything should be allowed to observe.



stellaluna -> RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? (11/17/2008 3:22:20 PM)

This begs the question: how long do you let someone attend.

In a large church you probably wouldn't know if someone was a serial visitor, but I have a little story that's related. A few years back I was part of a bible study made up of about a dozen people, mostly new Christians who had serious issues with going to actual church buildings. It's a long story.

Anyway, there were a couple of people who weren't believers who wanted to come and I resisted. I didn't think our group was an appropriate gathering...IOW I didn't feel this group was spiritually mature enough at that point to open it up to argumentative unbelievers. (These two people were admittedly more interested in debating, not what you might call "seekers.") Plus, our group had other issues that really needed to be resolved before any new people came into it. Even though our group leader agreed with me, he left it up to the group to decide whether to allow them to come and the group voted yes.

Our bible study was completely derailed. One or our new "members" quit coming after just a couple of meetings, so he ended up being a non-issue. But the other was a woman who was wiccan and insisted on defending her beliefs and questioning ours. This went on for a couple of months and when I suggested to a couple of people that she be asked to stop coming (since our meetings were pretty worthless at that point), I was the one who was called out as the "bad" Christian because "Christians aren't supposed to judge."

The group broke up shortly after that and I've seen all of those fledgling brothers and sisters fail to grow or drop by the wayside. I have strong feelings now about when unbelievers are allowed and when they aren't allowed to be part of such groups.



pstrdebi -> RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? (11/17/2008 3:44:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellaluna

This topic has come up in several threads around the board of late, but I can't find a generic thread for it. Some believe church is only for believers, some believe everyone should be allowed at all times. Some believe membership is only for believers, some believe it isn't. etc.

I personally believe that no one should be turned away from the church, but I also believe membership is for believers only. And I also believe that leadership positions should be filled only by members.


Is this a trick question? [sm=aside.gif]



doinkdom -> RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? (11/17/2008 3:45:31 PM)

We are actually drafting our membership covenant in the coming weeks and this is one of the issues we're addressing. Perhaps from a slightly different viewpoint.

Since we are a home church for now, if you visit us, you are sent a very short, thank you for visiting letter. And there is one, maybe two follow ups depending on the interaction had during the visit.

If you have been attending (45 days or more whic could change as we read through the draft) and are sick or miss a week, we send you a "missing you/get well" card. As a group, we've decided that if you've been a part of our local body for that long and are gone for 4 weeks and we've sent cards, etc. phone calls, etc. we assume you will not be back and don't want it to become harrasment with cards, letters, etc.

As for divisiveness...immediately addressed during or after the meeting based on "context." Not tolerated whatsoever. If you come to our group as a seeker of knowledge and not of Christ...you will be sifted rather quickly. There is no room for it among the body during a meeting. An after meeting conversation...certainly.

Of course, personal one-on-one conversations are always encouraged to address questions, etc. but everyone knows that if engaging a person with a hard heart towards God (yes there is accountability in place for that) there is no obligation or responsiblity to that person for anything.

I hope all that wasn't as fragmented as I fear it was.



zoebob -> RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? (11/17/2008 4:53:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellaluna

This begs the question: how long do you let someone attend.

In a large church you probably wouldn't know if someone was a serial visitor, but I have a little story that's related. A few years back I was part of a bible study made up of about a dozen people, mostly new Christians who had serious issues with going to actual church buildings. It's a long story.

Anyway, there were a couple of people who weren't believers who wanted to come and I resisted. I didn't think our group was an appropriate gathering...IOW I didn't feel this group was spiritually mature enough at that point to open it up to argumentative unbelievers. (These two people were admittedly more interested in debating, not what you might call "seekers.") Plus, our group had other issues that really needed to be resolved before any new people came into it. Even though our group leader agreed with me, he left it up to the group to decide whether to allow them to come and the group voted yes.

Our bible study was completely derailed. One or our new "members" quit coming after just a couple of meetings, so he ended up being a non-issue. But the other was a woman who was wiccan and insisted on defending her beliefs and questioning ours. This went on for a couple of months and when I suggested to a couple of people that she be asked to stop coming (since our meetings were pretty worthless at that point), I was the one who was called out as the "bad" Christian because "Christians aren't supposed to judge."

The group broke up shortly after that and I've seen all of those fledgling brothers and sisters fail to grow or drop by the wayside. I have strong feelings now about when unbelievers are allowed and when they aren't allowed to be part of such groups.

In a small group like this I would say that the purpose of the group is to disciple believers. That in a group like this questioning and debating Christianity will not be tolerated.



DuckTalk -> RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? (11/17/2008 5:06:03 PM)

Maybe this response has come up in several threads around the board, but I can't locate them so please tell me is there anywhere in the bible that makes mention of memberships? If so, please direct me.



doinkdom -> RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? (11/17/2008 5:13:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DuckTalk
Maybe this response has come up in several threads around the board, but I can't locate them so please tell me is there anywhere in the bible that makes mention of memberships? If so, please direct me.


nope...but there is a precedent for covenants among God's people and in defining the covenant, we use the word "membership" to describe it.



rolling -> RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? (11/17/2008 5:23:39 PM)

I believe that the 'gathering together' is for the edification of one another. I don't believe in dragging sinners to 'church'. I believe we are to go out and convert them where they are at, then bring them to our 'gathering'. [i deplore the word church. It's not biblical].



Mark328 -> RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? (11/17/2008 5:48:35 PM)

But isn't the church supposed to be a "hospital for sinners"? As Jesus stated, he came for the sick, not the healthy (or self-righteous, depending upon the translation).



stellaluna -> RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? (11/17/2008 5:50:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pstrdebi

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellaluna

This topic has come up in several threads around the board of late, but I can't find a generic thread for it. Some believe church is only for believers, some believe everyone should be allowed at all times. Some believe membership is only for believers, some believe it isn't. etc.

I personally believe that no one should be turned away from the church, but I also believe membership is for believers only. And I also believe that leadership positions should be filled only by members.


Is this a trick question? [sm=aside.gif]

Of course not.



DuckTalk -> RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? (11/17/2008 6:05:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rolling

I believe that the 'gathering together' is for the edification of one another. I don't believe in dragging sinners to 'church'. I believe we are to go out and convert them where they are at, then bring them to our 'gathering'. [i deplore the word church. It's not biblical].
I tend to think you have a profound understanding of what "church" is as Jesus described, but rolling, the word is too scriptural.

Matthew 16:17 Jesus replied, "................and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it." To name one of the numerous references to "church". I just think that the word has negative connotations now, but that is limiting ourselves.

You and I are the church, the new covenant as joint heirs and we are responsible for witnessing Christ's love to the world. We are to honor Him, to glorify Him. Some people feel that they can do this best within four walls. How? I don't know, but then again, who am I to judge? I've seen much good acts come from church group's efforts.



jn1010lf -> RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? (11/17/2008 6:20:25 PM)

Hello stellaluna

May I ask, "Where is the leading of the Holy Spirit all this?" Jesus said that the world would know us by our love. That's a strong drawing card for those with needs.



Consecrated2God -> RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? (11/17/2008 7:38:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellaluna

This begs the question: how long do you let someone attend.

In a large church you probably wouldn't know if someone was a serial visitor, but I have a little story that's related. A few years back I was part of a bible study made up of about a dozen people, mostly new Christians who had serious issues with going to actual church buildings. It's a long story.

Anyway, there were a couple of people who weren't believers who wanted to come and I resisted. I didn't think our group was an appropriate gathering...IOW I didn't feel this group was spiritually mature enough at that point to open it up to argumentative unbelievers. (These two people were admittedly more interested in debating, not what you might call "seekers.") Plus, our group had other issues that really needed to be resolved before any new people came into it. Even though our group leader agreed with me, he left it up to the group to decide whether to allow them to come and the group voted yes.

Our bible study was completely derailed. One or our new "members" quit coming after just a couple of meetings, so he ended up being a non-issue. But the other was a woman who was wiccan and insisted on defending her beliefs and questioning ours. This went on for a couple of months and when I suggested to a couple of people that she be asked to stop coming (since our meetings were pretty worthless at that point), I was the one who was called out as the "bad" Christian because "Christians aren't supposed to judge."

The group broke up shortly after that and I've seen all of those fledgling brothers and sisters fail to grow or drop by the wayside. I have strong feelings now about when unbelievers are allowed and when they aren't allowed to be part of such groups.


I think this is an excellent example of when to ask a non-believer to stop attending. Pastors do have a responsibility to protect the sheep from the wolves. If they are there to learn and have an open heart, I'd tolerate them for as long as necessary. But if they are there to cause division and try to cause others to question their faith, they should not be allowed to do that.



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