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RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand - 6/25/2009 1:41:58 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
I have always wondered if the locals did not see lust on the faces of the missionaries and this is what brought on the attack. To a culture that does not equate nakedess with sexuality, merging the two by an uninformed outsider might present a major threat in the eyes of the locals. Actually, several years after the event, and Mrs Elliot had been living with them and raising their daughter, the woman who incited the attack told her why. She suddenly got the idea that these men in the airplane were demons and needed to be killed so she told that to the tribal leaders. This was some weeks before they actually landed. So when they did land, that was it. Originally they (the tribesmen) were intending on welcoming them into the village.
So I do not believe it had anything to do with lust at all. The woman had only seen the plane fly overhead several times as they dropped off food and other stuff.
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RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand - 6/25/2009 1:46:05 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
I have always wondered if the locals did not see lust on the faces of the missionaries and this is what brought on the attack. To a culture that does not equate nakedess with sexuality, merging the two by an uninformed outsider might present a major threat in the eyes of the locals. Actually, several years after the event, and Mrs Elliot had been living with them and raising their daughter, the woman who incited the attack told her why. She suddenly got the idea that these men in the airplane were demons and needed to be killed so she told that to the tribal leaders. This was some weeks before they actually landed. So when they did land, that was it. Originally they (the tribesmen) were intending on welcoming them into the village.
So I do not believe it had anything to do with lust at all. The woman had only seen the plane fly overhead several times as they dropped off food and other stuff.
You are quite possibly correct DaveW, but why did the woman think they were demons; Possibley because of their reaction to the naked teenage girls???
Please understand I am not dissing the Missionaries, it is just that on the field we cannot react in any way contrare to the norm of the natives when meeting them.
I have spent much time in the jungles of Yucatan, Brazil, and columbia; and some of those isolated tribes are very perceptive and staunch in their beliefs about family, sex, and otsiders.
Thanks
RC
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RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand - 6/25/2009 2:49:30 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
You are quite possibly correct DaveW, but why did the woman think they were demons; Possibley because of their reaction to the naked teenage girls???
No - she had not even seen them, just the plane. She said she had absolutely no reason other than a feeling.
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RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand - 6/25/2009 3:02:31 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
You are quite possibly correct DaveW, but why did the woman think they were demons; Possibley because of their reaction to the naked teenage girls???
No - she had not even seen them, just the plane. She said she had absolutely no reason other than a feeling.
That's fine DaveW, I am not arguing the point, only giving my opinion from some experience in that gerneral area.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand - 6/26/2009 6:18:13 AM
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DaveW
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Understood. I can certainly see the situation you described happening. While not the case with the Elliots and their companions, I am sure that has happened elsewhere in similar situations.
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Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
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RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand - 6/30/2009 9:51:52 PM
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Nate79
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Born with a conscience towards covering? As a parent of two small children, I have to say no. We have to teach them to cover themselves.
I completely agree clothing and actions constitute modesty. One could cover themselves from head to toe and still act in an immodest manner.
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RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand - 6/30/2009 10:02:26 PM
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sharonjef2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Nate79
Born with a conscience towards covering? As a parent of two small children, I have to say no. We have to teach them to cover themselves.
I completely agree clothing and actions constitute modesty. One could cover themselves from head to toe and still act in an immodest manner.
Agreed. And on the other side, girls for example may dress in a way that is ok by our society standards and just not realize or understand what that could do to boys or people who look at them.
But this issue is totally a cultural one. Babies do not know they are naked or what that means. Parents teach their kids about dressing the same way they do everything else. Of course, there is also a pull on each person by the culture and also on personal expression.
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RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand - 6/30/2009 10:08:25 PM
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Nate79
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Excellent point, Sharon. I would guess the vast majority of girls have absolutely no concept of how visual men are. Having a wise woman (and a protective father) to give them some counsel in that regard in very valuable both for their own safety and their own maturity.
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RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand - 7/1/2009 5:41:57 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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I appreciate all your answers. I have become so disheartened in America with how willing people are to just let it "all hang out," with women's blame game against men that follows, and with the men's own back-blame game they pull against women.
I continue to hear men try to say that they come to being "visual" naturally, so it is the women's duty to cover. NO IT IS NOT!
An American woman should not cover herself for men! An American woman should cover herself out of respect for herself, and if she is a believer, she should cover herself out of respect for her G-d.
As far as American men go, they need to have the same self-respect and manhood enough to take responsibility for themselves not to look, for good night. Don't blame a woman for your weakness! And if he is a believer, he ought to love and respect his G-d enough that he will guard his own eyes.
And I write this being a visual person myself, as are many women. If you think I don't get it, you are fooling yourself.
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand - 7/2/2009 11:06:42 AM
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doinkdom
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Abiyah, I applaud your post...excellent, just excellent
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RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand - 7/2/2009 1:48:42 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Thank you, Doinkdom, for your support of this issue!
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand - 7/2/2009 3:46:16 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
I appreciate all your answers. I have become so disheartened in America with how willing people are to just let it "all hang out," with women's blame game against men that follows, and with the men's own back-blame game they pull against women.
The restraint I have to observe is more gastro-intestinal in most cases. There are way too many people(male and female) who see no problem with exposing their girth. Whether it is fully exposed or skin tight, people need to realize that not everyone finds the same things attractive, even if they believe they have good looking body. When are we going to see the infomercial for airbrushing actual people?
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand - 7/2/2009 3:59:02 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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. . . gotcha. Agreed.
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand - 7/3/2009 7:41:11 AM
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wbporter
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Growing up in the south in the 50's, being barefoot and shirtless was the uniform of the day in summer. Around nine years old I got the feeling, "Hey, I'm naked," and wore more clothes when playing. Now I consider what others are doing, local custom, and relative privacy before taking too much off (same as everyone else, I hope).
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RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand - 7/3/2009 4:12:20 PM
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Bluethread
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The disapproving look of an otherwise supportive father can go a long way also.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand - 7/3/2009 4:57:03 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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. . . when there is a father . . . .
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand - 7/5/2009 2:44:39 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Sorry -- I simply decided I was too descriptive, thus the slight rewrite . . . .
So my stepson's wife is visiting for the weekend with her little girls -- my granddaughters. They are picky eaters, so we always take them out to a particular family-friendly country buffet-type restaurant to eat.
We went Friday afternoon and were eating when a man and woman walked in. I was stunned that they let the woman in the door.
Imagine this: she was about 5'9" and weighed 225 - 240 pounds. She was dressed in what I am quite sure was a black bathing suit. No back until the waist. The straps that went around her neck did not cover her on the sides, and she was very exposed. The neck of the suit dipped more broadly than you can imagine to her waist, exposing everything there. There was stuff hanging out everywhere.
They walked right in as though everything was great, and she went to the buffets to help herself. I was glad I had already gotten my food. . . feeling sick knowing what was hanging out over all that food.
I went to the manager and told him GENTLY what I thought of her being allowed in the restaurant undressed like that. The two of them were quite big, and the manager was only about 5'10" and 170 (as they say) soaking wet. I suggested that he call someone and find out what he could do. He was also concerned, so he very likely did that. The couple didn't leave while we were there.
If my husband and I had been there alone, I would have asked for my money back and left.
But it made me wonder -- really! -- WHAT NEXT!
< Message edited by Covaan_Meshuga -- 7/6/2009 1:34:54 PM >
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand - 7/8/2009 7:01:36 PM
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prolifepj
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I'm a bit off topic here but you know what irks me? How difficult it is to find modest apparel!
Went shopping weekend before last to prepare for a trip and I was so annoyed that I had such a hard time finding summer tops that were not too low cut! I have to wear tanktops or camis under everthing and rarely wear fitted tops- if I do, there's usually another something over it. Every store it seemed had low cut everything...bleh bleh Can anyone out there reccomend a place?
You know what else gets me? How the immodest styles are so prevalent in clothing even for younger ones....I'm talking about 7-8-9 yr olds! What kind of Momma sends their 7 yr old to school dressed like a street walker?
My school teacher friend tells me often of the little ones she's had to send home because of the manner in which they dressed! Is it any wonder why today's youth are so messed up in this regard? So many are allowed and TAUGHT to flaunt! And the parents argue, -Oh my child can show her litttle 10 yr old mid section if she wants to, its not bothering anyone- have we gone crazy? Sure its not! Just the boy across from her whose hormones are starting to kick in and now has no idea what the teacher is talking about, not to mention the little one who's learning a new method of capturing attention. G-d help us!
There. I'm done ranting. Covaan_Meshuga don't look! *ducks behind soapbox from CM for going off topic *
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RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand - 7/8/2009 7:48:51 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Not off-topic at all. We are all calling out our concerns over this issue.
I am also concerned with the words written on the seats of little girls' pants. Our young women's bodies and their purity are already so trivialized, and their value so marketed, that calling attention to their anatomy there is not right.
You go right ahead and rant! I welcome it!
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand - 7/8/2009 8:04:39 PM
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momma_bee
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I was complaining about this today.
Recently I went to buy my little one a dress for First Communion, no color requirement, in fact the dress was requested by the daughter, not the Pastor. Should be easy. April in PA - still cold and icky.
All I could find was halter dresses and short skirts.
I was told that was all there was and that she could wear pants under the skirt. If she wanted to wear pants she wouldn't have asked for a dress. I had folks explain 'that was all that is out there, so I just had to accept it' and 'it is ok, it is what's in style'
She ended up wearing a skirt from goodwill and a 'nice enough' top.
Actually, the top was a good choice for her. She can wear it with jeans / capris / skirts / dress pants and I think if she 'borrowed' my dress black shorts it would work too. Well worth the $$ spent.
Back on topic. It is learned. I can't imagine my shoulders showing - I can barely stand to wear cap sleeves because my mom told me what kind of girls show their bare arms. Of course, she kept her opinion of girls taking Communion in CHURCH in black to herself. (Black is only for grown women and funerals)
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RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand - 7/9/2009 12:11:10 AM
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prolifepj
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And do you know what else???!!!?!?!
*climbs back on soapbox singing " a ranting I will go"*
What bothers me most about the modesty issue is how little of it there is in the church! Oh sure, not all believers are this way, but I have been so surprised at some... I have more than once had to ask - and it was almost always a woman or teenaged girl, to cover up on behalf of my brothers in the faith. I have absolutely no problem asking them either- in a tactful way of course.
IMO, as a believer, man or woman, we have a responsibility to present ourselves in a manner that glorifies G-d. As a woman, I personally feel that I am called to be my brothers keeper also and that I will do my best not to present myself in any way that would entice. All within reason of course- I live in TX...and its 3 million degrees here. I'm not about to wear longsleeved (although I usually do because of a cold office), floor legnth outfits everyday just to help my brothers. Now, I'm not a head turner by any means (maybe heads turning the opposite direction!) but being a "sister of the shelf" I have always fought to keep attention north of the neck.
That being said, I would hope for the same from my brothers- just say no to crack!!
Now, I do take into consideration a new believer having lived in the world for so long, it may take time, but I'm still convinced that modesty is a learned trait.
*down off the box*
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Sho nuff honey chile - Smile, it makes people wonder what you're up to!
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RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand - 7/9/2009 1:34:31 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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So regarding the OP, the concept of modesty in this country has changed. Simply put, it's not the '50s anymore. Re clothing, we have become more and more undressed, to the point at which people go out in public with it all hanging out.
I find that for me to dress modestly, it should not be necessary for me to wear calico or jeans-jumpers. I have purchased some things through the Internet and catalogs with a degree of success, but so far, I have not found consistent quality in those clothing items.
_____________________________
Also, in my OP, I mentioned that modesty is perceived differently in various countries and societies. I also know that Europeans, for example, who are likely most similar to us, see us as prudes with regard to our bodies.
But we have changed in America in my lifetime with regard to our attitudes toward our bodies, and I don't see anything positive about that change. The result has been a complete loss of regard for ourselves and for others along with almost a demand that we give up and give in to what society sees as the new, all-inclusive "norm." In that regard, I am at a complete loss.
The bottom line is that society changes, but the Bible remains the same. We still have a responsibility to do what it says in regard to our own modesty and to that of our children.
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand - 7/9/2009 2:23:06 AM
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Bluethread
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It is too bad that sewing, knitting and emboidering are becoming lost arts. We may regret this in the near future because of a lack of resources and not just a lack of choices. One may find these unreasonable because one considers one's time of more value than a $30+ piece of clothing. However, even if one does not want to take the time to construct an entire garment, hems, fringes and extentions can be added to clothing purchased at a department store.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand - 7/9/2009 8:26:01 AM
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momma_bee
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I watched a sit com the other day where a fellow was digging himself a hole while talking to a woman because he was umm, appreciating her endowments. He said the wrong words and was generally distasteful all around. Being a sitcom, it was overkill - a normal person would have stopped talking.
He was told off, of course.
But, his response was more profound than intended. I'm paraphrasing of course but it was something like..."It's not our fault. The advertisers and tv shows put THEM in front of us all the time, reminding us how beautiful they are - but when we see them in person, we aren't allowed to look at them or think about them."
I can still sew. I just lack the opportunity to do it.
My former Pastor is a fine woman. She will tell the story of being confirmed as a member of her church in the 70's and wearing a dress and being asked to kneel and all of the girls realizing that, as they knelt in front of the congregation it was more important to keep their back straight than get their lines right. After all, no one remembers who was prompted a second time, but if they had leaned forward... Oopsie. But, the denomonation doesn't expect LONG dresses and there were only short ones out there.
I don't expect a different standard in church myself. I do expect modest actions to go with modest clothes and, after talking to my hubby and son - they have explained that beautiful and appealing aren't forgotten when they are hidden. Something along the lines of 'you like what you see and wonder about what you don't see' - so the actions of the young lady should make it clear that it isn't to be wondered about.
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