Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand (Full Version)

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Covaan_Meshuga -> Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand (11/25/2008 2:19:35 PM)

First, before I ask my questions, everyone already knows and understands that different countries/societies have differing ideas regarding modesty. And maybe that is the answer to my question, already stated and by me: that the idea of modesty in this country has changed profoundly.

Second, we all know that modesty is not just about our clothing; it is also about our actions, our thoughts, our responses.

But I still want to ask the questions regarding clothing ourselves and/or dressing in such a way as to not intentionally entice another:

  • Is each person born with a G-d-given conscience regarding covering our bodies?
  • If so, does the G-d-given conscience include His thoughts regarding modesty toward clothing ourselves?
  • If so, do His thoughts regarding modesty follow the ideas given in the Bible regarding covering ourselves?



stellaluna -> RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand (11/25/2008 2:33:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
  • Is each person born with a G-d-given conscience regarding covering our bodies?

    • I say no, based on the number of small children I've seen rip off their clothes at every opportunity. (And being one of those kids myself. [sm=icon_smile_blush.gif])

    quote:


  • If so, does the G-d-given conscience include His thoughts regarding modesty toward clothing ourselves?
  • If so, do His thoughts regarding modesty follow the ideas given in the Bible regarding covering ourselves?

    • I personally think that dress is something taught by parents across the board and the bible may not have any bearing on it. Sometimes children will be dressed solely because of parental preference, some may use it as a kind of control, etc.



    LCannon -> RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand (11/25/2008 2:38:23 PM)

    Since only I have over one person, me, I have to guard my imaginations despite how others dress, act and comport themselves. As such, we(I)have the responsibility comport myself appropriately for and in the proper circumstance.



    DaveW -> RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand (11/25/2008 2:43:03 PM)

    Good questions.

    Is each person born with a G-d-given conscience regarding covering our bodies?
    Since the first example of modesty is in the Gan Eden immediately after the Fall, I am not so sure it is God given. I would sooner think it is a byproduct of sin entering humanity.

    If so, does the G-d-given conscience include His thoughts regarding modesty toward clothing ourselves?
    Our conscience is an amalgam of Godly and natural thoughts and feelings, and what we have been taught by parents, church and society. There are things clearly commanded in scripture that can violate one's conscience if there was enough teaching against it.

    If so, do His thoughts regarding modesty follow the ideas given in the Bible regarding covering ourselves?The natural and/or godly desire to be covered has to be directed as to HOW to cover. That is why proper teaching and societal support are important. Without that, we would only by accident apply what the bible says about it.




    moon_mouse -> RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand (11/25/2008 2:43:20 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga

  • Is each person born with a G-d-given conscience regarding covering our bodies?


    • Well, young children at some point start to feel uncomfortable with the opposite gendered parent helping them bathe or dress or attend at the potty. In fact, lack of age-appropriate modesty sometimes can be a sign of abuse. So, I do think we have some inborn (God-given) modesty.

    quote:

  • If so, does the G-d-given conscience include His thoughts regarding modesty toward clothing ourselves?


    • I would say that since He thought to give us additional guidance in the form of the Scriptures, and that other faiths and societies have outlined modesty guidelines indicates that our inborn modesty is sometimes not sufficient to living in larger groups.

    quote:

  • If so, do His thoughts regarding modesty follow the ideas given in the Bible regarding covering ourselves?


    • Are you asking here if specific guidelines given in the Bible reflect God's specific instruction for all times and places...in other words, are you adressing issues like headcovering or dresses-only? I would say that the modesty instructions in the Bible give clear principals of how to be modest (don't seek to insite lust, don't display your wealth, don't rely on outward appearances to establish yourself or get attention), but that following the specific instructions given to a certain culture at a certain time might not achieve the same ends. So, we should look to the intent and how that intent would be best followed in our culture. We aren't going to all come to the same conclusions about that, but ambiguity and disagreement are always going to be a part of life.



    doinkdom -> RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand (11/25/2008 2:48:06 PM)

    Is each person born with a G-d-given conscience regarding covering our bodies?
    No as evidenced by what stellaluna said and as we grow up, society shows what is acceptable. Ever see the movie, Tess (I think that's the name) with Jodie Foster...it might help illustrate some of that.

    If so, does the G-d-given conscience include His thoughts regarding modesty toward clothing ourselves?
    Since I answered No to the first question...I think the secular morality of our parents, family, etc is what conditions our clothing choices at an early age and then we are transformed by the word of God and become a new creation in Him. So those old secular morals are replaced by godly ones.

    If so, do His thoughts regarding modesty follow the ideas given in the Bible regarding covering
    God is the same today, yesterday and tomorrow.



    LCannon -> RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand (11/25/2008 2:59:35 PM)

    Since only I have control over one person, me, I have to guard my imaginations despite how others dress, act and comport themselves. As such, we(I)have the responsibility comport myself appropriately for and in the proper circumstance. A point in fact, a missionary asked why the natives of a tribe 'only' wore a string of twisted vine around her waist. She looked shocked and said, "Without it I would feel naked!"



    Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand (11/25/2008 3:20:42 PM)

    Thank you for all of your answers. I am just trying to figure this out.

    I know that in my grandparents' youth, they wore clothes from head to toe. That was modesty. When Grandfather went to see a girlie show at the local bar, the ladies wore their skirts hiked up on the sides, showing their ankles, and Grandfather would not have mentioned to Grandmother that he had seen another lady's ankles.

    In the '20s, the flappers taught people to wear short dresses; ten to 20 years later, the men wore their wide, flapping zoot suits. Both of these were seen as immodest by the common folk, but skirts inched up.

    When I was born, the women wore skirts to the lower thigh and looked with envy at Katharine Hepburn because she had the guts to wear pants. In my birth-home, I was never allowed to wear pants "because they were immodest," but I knew better. Today, I won't wear a skirt because I feel immodest in them.

    So perhaps my ideas regarding what is/isn't modest is mainly based upon these things, but the Bible is clear about covering ourselves and about not trying to entice others by our mode of dressing. Sure, someone is bound to bring up David dancing naked, but if they checked into what was considered "naked" then, they would find that "naked" was close to what we would call a tee shirt and boxer shorts.

    Well, keep talking to me -- I am trying to learn. . . .



    SonInMe1 -> RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand (11/25/2008 6:20:05 PM)

    Modesty is an attempt not to advertise your "wares".

    You can be covered head to toe and NOT be modest.

    Its the intent of what you are trying to accomplish that is important. What does your dress say about you?

    Why do mothers think a scantily clad child is "cute"?

    Why do middle aged mothers dress like a teen listening to hormones?



    Sideways -> RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand (11/25/2008 6:31:53 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
    Why do mothers think a scantily clad child is "cute"?


    Not this mother! [:'(]

    I actually think the majority of moms do try and put reasonable clothes on their little ones, we just notice the baby-tramps, 'cause their the ones who stick out the most. It's called cognitive bias. We glaze right over the normal, cute girls and remember vividly the ones who shocked and appalled us.



    prolifepj -> RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand (11/25/2008 6:42:04 PM)

    OOOO looky I found an Abiyah thread!


      quote:

    • Is each person born with a G-d-given conscience regarding covering our bodies?


      • I could be very wrong, but I would have to say no on this - I believe each is given a conscience in general of course, but the culture we are raised heavily influences what we see as right and wrong. Like you mentioned about other countries... I'll give an example - when ministering in Brazil, the guys on our team have to keep themselves VERY accountable because the young women in every city, every church do not exactly dress to cover but more so to enhance - and with that intent purpose. They didn't see anything wrong with it - to them it was normal. I'm not so certain the local young men were as enticed - I'm SURE they were to some extent - they HAD to be, however it didn't seem as any sort of issue to them.

      In India - the Saree is worn to enhance the female figure - to draw the eye to it. Even the Christians dress this way, it also being normal to them.

      Other countries dictate that it is sinful to allow anything other than eyes and hands to be shown. Would a child being told all their lives that it's wrong to show skin beyond hands and eyes think it any differently if they had never seen another way? I dunno.

      quote:

    • If so, does the G-d-given conscience include His thoughts regarding modesty toward clothing ourselves?


      • I think we have to learn His ways, not so sure we're born knowing.

      quote:

    • If so, do His thoughts regarding modesty follow the ideas given in the Bible regarding covering ourselves?


    this is a great thread - you always make me think!



    Liveloved -> RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand (11/25/2008 11:07:49 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga

    First, before I ask my questions, everyone already knows and understands that different countries/societies have differing ideas regarding modesty. And maybe that is the answer to my question, already stated and by me: that the idea of modesty in this country has changed profoundly.

    Second, we all know that modesty is not just about our clothing; it is also about our actions, our thoughts, our responses.

    But I still want to ask the questions regarding clothing ourselves and/or dressing in such a way as to not intentionally entice another:

    • Is each person born with a G-d-given conscience regarding covering our bodies?
    • If so, does the G-d-given conscience include His thoughts regarding modesty toward clothing ourselves?
    • If so, do His thoughts regarding modesty follow the ideas given in the Bible regarding covering ourselves?



    No. I believe we were created beautifully and covering originated with sin. I always wondered about the people on the pages of our National Geographic magazines as a child---not a stitch of clothing on. Do they lust less? more?

    I think the teachings on modesty are more cultural. God allowed divorce because of man's hardness of heart. Perhaps modest dress was a similar accomodation.

    Just thinking out loud.



    zamdad -> RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand (11/26/2008 12:49:24 AM)

    quote:

    Is each person born with a G-d-given conscience regarding covering our bodies?


    I don't think that we are born with a God ordained conciousness of how we cover our bodies. I think it is something learned. Much of it, as you already pointed out, Abiyah, is cultural.

    quote:

    If so, does the G-d-given conscience include His thoughts regarding modesty toward clothing ourselves?


    I don' think that His influence into how we dress is ever a thought until we abide in Him. When He begins to be the lens through which we view the world, He changes our thinking to be more like Him.

    quote:

    If so, do His thoughts regarding modesty follow the ideas given in the Bible regarding covering ourselves?


    Again, I think the culture tends to dictate how we cover ourselves. Modesty begins in the mind. If a persons mind is focused on Him, their thoughts (attitudes, values, beliefs), are going to be reflected in their behavior. What we choose to wear often also tends to reflect where our heart is at as well.

    After particiapting in the other thread on a similar topic, this was driven home to me the other night. A party was busted and a couple of teenage girls were brought into the station to wait for their parents to come get them. Both of the girls had attitude to spare. One of the girls, however, had on a low cut top with the goods pushed up for all to see. What her dress and her behavior conveyed about her is that she's a party girl, that she's advertising for guys, and that she really does not respect herself as much as she wants others to think. When her dad arrived, she became an absolute monster. Her lack of respect for herself was directed angrily at her dad. Her heart lacks modesty. I think that culturally we are infected with this lack of modesty because we lack reverance.



    Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand (11/26/2008 1:16:39 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: prolifepj
    OOOO looky I found an Abiyah thread!

    Hee-hee-hee!

    Thank you, all, for your answers. I am seeing that I have been wrong, because all of you are making sense. I will have to adjust my thoughts and attitude accordingly to one of a whole lot more patience. [sm=icon_smile.gif]



    Jhud -> RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand (11/26/2008 2:32:35 PM)

    I think modesty is partly ingrained, though I think like all ingrained aspects of human nature it can be corrupted by our experiences and the society around us.

    I grew up in a pretty 'liberal' family modesty wise (running around in our underwear, leaving bathroom doors open, hearing straight forward talk about what differentiated boys and girls, etc) and my father was a part-time artist, so human anatomy books weren't uncommon.

    And yet, when I hit puberty, I pretty quickly gained a sense of propriety when it came to my willingness to run around half dressed. So I think there is some internal compass that comes into play here; and as Paul seems to encourage modest behavior, it would seem that it cetainly isn't an unnatural human condition, though exactly what constitutes modesty may differ culturally.

    Of course, the problem with defining modesty, to paraphrase a Supreme Court justice, is that some people get excited looking at a seed catalogue.



    paulito -> RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand (12/17/2008 8:31:45 AM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: SonInMe1

    Modesty is an attempt not to advertise your "wares".

    You can be covered head to toe and NOT be modest.

    Its the intent of what you are trying to accomplish that is important. What does your dress say about you?

    Why do mothers think a scantily clad child is "cute"?

    Why do middle aged mothers dress like a teen listening to hormones?


    Agreed. There are some ladies who really show a little too much (not understanding how guys are visually stimulated), but their attitude shows that it's in all innocence.

    Anyway, ladies, just use some common sense. We guys really admire the qualities in you that are apart from physical beauty. Your manner of dress should point us toward your face. [:)]



    Tinkerbell_ -> RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand (12/17/2008 8:35:08 AM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: paulito

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: SonInMe1

    Modesty is an attempt not to advertise your "wares".

    You can be covered head to toe and NOT be modest.

    Its the intent of what you are trying to accomplish that is important. What does your dress say about you?

    Why do mothers think a scantily clad child is "cute"?

    Why do middle aged mothers dress like a teen listening to hormones?


    Agreed. There are some ladies who really show a little too much (not understanding how guys are visually stimulated), but their attitude shows that it's in all innocence.

    Anyway, ladies, just use some common sense. We guys really admire the qualities in you that are apart from physical beauty. Your manner of dress should point us toward your face. [:)]

    Disagreeing here. I would venture to say that most women who are scantily clad know exactly the effect the are having on men.



    figmentPez -> RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand (12/17/2008 10:24:24 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: stellaluna

    I say no, based on the number of small children I've seen rip off their clothes at every opportunity. (And being one of those kids myself. [sm=icon_smile_blush.gif])


    A small child is not a sexually mature adult. In Ezekiel Jerusalem is metaphorically a young woman, and scripture talks about the difference between a child going naked, and a sexually mature woman going naked:

    Ezekiel 167-8
    7"I made you numerous like plants of the field. Then you grew up, became tall and reached the age for fine ornaments; your breasts were formed and your hair had grown. Yet you were naked and bare.
    8"Then I passed by you and saw you, and behold, you were at the time for love; so I spread My skirt over you and covered your nakedness I also swore to you and entered into a covenant with you so that you became Mine," declares the Lord GOD.

    Here God talks about the nakedness of an adult woman, what has changed from a child that becomes nakedness that should be covered. The breasts and the genitals (where "hair had grown" during puberty).

    Yes, this is an allegorical woman, and not a specific individual. Yes, there is no command here. However, what it demonstrates is what God views as nakedness, and why there is a difference between an adult being naked and a child. This is not an absolute statement of all that must be covered to be modest, but it is a fairly good start to look at what scripture says on the matter.



    paulito -> RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand (6/24/2009 8:04:20 AM)

    Agreeing with Tinkerbell:

    Since this comment is coming from a lady, I will have to admit that she is probably exactly right!



    DaveW -> RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand (6/24/2009 9:42:46 AM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga

  • Is each person born with a G-d-given conscience regarding covering our bodies?
  • If so, does the G-d-given conscience include His thoughts regarding modesty toward clothing ourselves?
  • If so, do His thoughts regarding modesty follow the ideas given in the Bible regarding covering ourselves?

    • That is debatable. I saw a travel channel special a few days ago about a small tribe called the Zoe who live in the northern part of the Amazon rain forest, along the border with Columbia. They do not now nor have they ever worn clothing of any kind. I have heard of other tribes like this including the Kitchawa (sp?) tribe that Elizabeth Elliot lived with as a missionary for several years. (they killed her first husband) There seems to be no shame or sexuality associated with that kind of being uncovered. That would tend to make me think that modesty is culturally learned.



    GrahamCracker -> RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand (6/25/2009 6:50:58 AM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga

    First, before I ask my questions, everyone already knows and understands that different countries/societies have differing ideas regarding modesty. And maybe that is the answer to my question, already stated and by me: that the idea of modesty in this country has changed profoundly.

    Second, we all know that modesty is not just about our clothing; it is also about our actions, our thoughts, our responses.

    But I still want to ask the questions regarding clothing ourselves and/or dressing in such a way as to not intentionally entice another:

    • Is each person born with a G-d-given conscience regarding covering our bodies?
    • If so, does the G-d-given conscience include His thoughts regarding modesty toward clothing ourselves?
    • If so, do His thoughts regarding modesty follow the ideas given in the Bible regarding covering ourselves?



    Covaan_Meshubga,

    I remember Elizabeth Eliott mentioned something on one of her radio broadcasts. I think you know who she is. When she returned from Ecuador in either the 50s or 60s with her young daughter, her daughter had been raised virtually naked. It was apparently common for young children to frequently go without clothing. Her daughter Valerie noticed that people were fully clothed and she herself was not accustomed to seeing it or being fully clothed herself.

    I won't comment on it directly except it seems strange that Valerie did not have a problem with being nearly naked on the mission field as a young child.



    rcjames -> RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand (6/25/2009 9:11:57 AM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: DaveW
    I have heard of other tribes like this including the Kitchawa (sp?) tribe that Elizabeth Elliot lived with as a missionary for several years. (they killed her first husband) There seems to be no shame or sexuality associated with that kind of being uncovered. That would tend to make me think that modesty is culturally learned.


    I agree DaveW. modesty is culturally learned; one of the areas of South America that I was a missionary in for a few years had thier own brand of modesty. The women wore very low cut tops and thought nothing of exposing thier breast, but if someone saw thier armpit they were severly chastized by the powers that be in the villages.

    As to Ms. Elliot, her husband was killed by an otherwise peaceful people when he and some other missionaries landed thier airplace close to a village. The missionaries cameras had film, that showed the last thing that they were filming before being killed was some teenage girls without clothing of course. The men of the tribe attacked and killed all the missionaries.

    I have always wondered if the locals did not see lust on the faces of the missionaries and this is what brought on the attack. To a culture that does not equate nakedess with sexuality, merging the two by an uninformed outsider might present a major threat in the eyes of the locals.

    Thanks
    RC



    kernsfamily -> RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand (6/25/2009 12:31:29 PM)

    quote:

    Its the intent of what you are trying to accomplish that is important. What does your dress say about you?


    how can someone, just by looking at me, know my "intent"?



    prolifepj -> RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand (6/25/2009 1:02:30 PM)

    Intent- Not so sure you can always if ever accurately know someone's intent by their dress. HOWEVER if I were to show up at my synagogue wearing a long black trench coat and a swastica or pentagram I can GUARANTEE the armed security would stop
    me to ask a few questions. OR The lady scantilly dressed having been raised "in the world" who comes into church for the first time out of desperation or in search for G-d - how can I know her intent? I can't, but I would admittedly wonder.



    rcjames -> RE: Modesty: please enlighten me: I don't understand (6/25/2009 1:08:05 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
    how can someone, just by looking at me, know my "intent"?


    It depends on how much "Intent" you might be showing!

    I had a youth group up in the South East part of Oklahoma City on a witnessing and learning adventure; and the way the "Ladies of the Night" were dressed and acting; there was not much doubt about thier intent.

    Thanks
    RC



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