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RE: Long after the exit, still hurting - 12/2/2008 2:12:58 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
Posts: 764
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
When I write on CW, sometimes I realize that I am still So Angry with the old church, its people, and their lack of either response or integrity as well as their inability to admit what they or their ministers have done. But mainly, my response is to push what they did and not deal with it at all.
Please check the website "Battered Sheep Ministry" which has a lot of articles and forums about people who have suffered from legalism and abuse in the church.
You might also check out "Let us Reason Together" website which also explains some things that would help you.
_____________________________
Just give us peace, Lord.
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RE: Long after the exit, still hurting - 12/2/2008 2:31:03 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 750
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quote:
But complicating this all the more is the fact that I keep wondering why I feel so violated when all they did was touch. And it hurts to know these guys died without acknowledging what they did.
To you it may appear as that be the case. But I know this to be true that God will put it into their mind after they face his judgment. You see I believe that we will all answer for our sins in which we could not seem acknowledge them.
The requirements is that when we have sinned to a individual. We need to go to them and ask them to forgive us. I am sorry in your case this has not happen. When we have done that by asking a person for forgivness. Then our Father who is in heaven forgives us when we confess it to him. Because when we sin we sin not just to the person but also to God.
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RE: Long after the exit, still hurting - 12/2/2008 2:31:42 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3173
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From: being knit together in my mother's womb
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I sit here and read each message, and sentences pop out at me from them, as though bolded. I wonder if you can even imagine that I think that much of your writing was guided by G-d. Maybe you can't, but those certain sentences are like healing inoculations. They are affirmations. I have to get to work soon, but when I am through, I want to come back, read through all of the posts again, to highlight and save those lines to a file that can be printed and carried in my purse.
Thank you, all of you, so much.
I thought about what activities had helped me become more at peace with my parents, and besides prayer and meditation on the Scriptures, I also dealt, like David, with the pain through prose and poetry. He was a singer and instrumentalist; I fancy myself a singer and artist. I have turned to these things to help me through this. These things, along with your encouraging remarks, are helping. I can feel it.
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: Long after the exit, still hurting - 12/3/2008 1:02:34 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1817
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Abiyah,
As I was praying this morning, you were on my heart and in my thoughts. I was praying Psalm 147 which speaks of the rebuilding of the walls surrounding Jerusalem in the days of Nehemiah.
And as I prayed I knew I needed to share these thoughts with you as well. The evil that sin has brought into the world tears down our walls, breaks down our gates and brings the pain, hurt and lack of peace that you were speaking of.
But we are not left alone. We do not have to heal ourselves. Our mighty God is the Healer and He will bind up our wounds and heal our broken hearts. He will rebuild your walls, Abiyah, and restore your gates. And He will bring peace within your borders. He will satisfy you with the finest wheat (Jesus). Those are His promises to you. He has done this for me. And I know and am believing He will do this for you as well. That's how great His love is for you, Abiyah. Great is our Lord. He will restore you, build you up, just as He did Jerusalem.
And you will go out with joy and be led forth with peace. You are His praise. Praise the Lord!  LL
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RE: Long after the exit, still hurting - 12/4/2008 2:41:11 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Thank you for your prayers and words. I am much better better today, not enraged as I was, and working on this daily with a determination to see it to its end. I know that G-d got me through the stuff about my parents; surely, He can set me free from this as well, "rebuilding my walls." He is the Father, and I trust Him to do all things right and well.
I will have time, too, to look into the suggested sites today. I guess that, at this point, I am grabbing at any sensible tool to push through this, so I want to see what's there.
The workbook, in spite of its silly moments, has some useful pages and work that are helping. For example, right now, I am looking at the concept that that church taught me, with threats of spiritual anihilation and disaster, to protect them at all times, and I still carry that, in spite of the abuse. That is so wrong, but I am getting over it.
But it is mainly the Word and the words of believers that are beneficial. Thank you, everyone. You are so appreciated.
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: Long after the exit, still hurting - 12/4/2008 3:35:09 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1817
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
Thank you for your prayers and words. I am much better better today, not enraged as I was, and working on this daily with a determination to see it to its end. I know that G-d got me through the stuff about my parents; surely, He can set me free from this as well, "rebuilding my walls." He is the Father, and I trust Him to do all things right and well.
I will have time, too, to look into the suggested sites today. I guess that, at this point, I am grabbing at any sensible tool to push through this, so I want to see what's there.
The workbook, in spite of its silly moments, has some useful pages and work that are helping. For example, right now, I am looking at the concept that that church taught me, with threats of spiritual anihilation and disaster, to protect them at all times, and I still carry that, in spite of the abuse. That is so wrong, but I am getting over it.
But it is mainly the Word and the words of believers that are beneficial. Thank you, everyone. You are so appreciated.
Thank you, Abiyah, for letting us know how you're doing. And something I intended to say earlier and neglected but think it important enough to say now.
Thank you for your willingness to be so very honest, truthful, riskingly vulnerable and forthright in what you shared with us. Jesus said, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician but those who are sick. But go and learn what this means, 'I desire compassion and not sacrifice', for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners." Matt 9:12-13 We in the church need to share these kind of truthful experiences with one another. And I think we need to let the lost world see our struggle as well. It is a wonderful way of showing them how much we need our Great Physician.
I'll continue to pray for you. Rebuilding is sometimes a tedious process but the Master Builder is at work in you and for you.  LL
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RE: Long after the exit, still hurting - 12/8/2008 11:06:09 PM
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vew
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Covaan, Meshuga...I was so soory to hear about your abuse. A good book might be....The Battle and the Backlash: the Child Abuse War. It talks abut child abuse by clergymen and others in positions of trust. It says that the organizations involved appear to b econcerned with limiting the damage to their own image and protecting themselves rather than protecting vulnerable children.
A child's trust is usually given completely, without reservation. So if that trust is betrayed, it has a devastating impact on an unsuspecting young mind. The publication Child Abuse and Neglect. notes: 'Persons and places that previously signaled safety or support have become associated with danger and fear. The child's world becoes less predictable and controllable."
It's understandable why, as a result of such abuse, much of which as gone on for many years, fome children have developed social and psychiatric problems later in life, well into adulthood. This betrayas of trust is so damaging because a child has been taken advantage of vecause he or she is a child. This type of abuse is an overwhelming, damaging and humilating assult on a child's mind, soul, and body....The abuse invdes every facet of one's existance." So says The Right to Innocence by Beverly Engle.
The fact that you exposed the abuse is in your favor...Even if the abuser denied the assault. Hopefully this will help some what in your efforts to heal.
One last comment. It always angers me to hear people say your not healing because you haven't forgiven the abuserl Has the abuser asked for forgiveness and has he repented and turned around from his atrocious conduct? If not! Even our heavenly father forgives him. Why should you have to ?
VEW
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RE: Long after the exit, still hurting - 12/8/2008 11:10:48 PM
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vew
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I meant to say. Even our heavenly father hasn't forgiven him. Why should you have to?
VEW
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RE: Long after the exit, still hurting - 12/17/2008 12:05:01 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3173
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Thank you, Vew and 3cappuccinosmom. The experience rips at the soul.
Vew, you asked why I should forgive these people. I desire to forgive them for two reasons:
- My L-rd says to
- I want to for selfish reasons -- to get over it
I can't finish this right now. A mother in the neighborhood just called with a need for diapers. I'll be back.
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: Long after the exit, still hurting - 12/17/2008 12:43:46 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Thank you, Vew, for bringing up forgiveness. I really need to hear back from people about it, because I am very shaky about it. I request that we talk about it in my other thread, http://forums.crosswalk.com/Emerging+From+the+Abyss%3a+Finding+Freedom+From+a+Cult/m_4043082/mpage_1/tm.htm#4050517
Thank you!!!
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: Long after the exit, still hurting - 12/17/2008 11:23:57 PM
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TheTruthForum
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Several thoughts come to me:
First, my wife is a clinical therapist, a mental health counselor, trained in both secular and biblical counseling, and I can tell you that it is normal, natural, usual, for the victim (you) to feel violated, dirty, guilty, etc. "There must be something wrong with me- that's why they picked me." But that is a satanic lie. They picked you because of their own sinful, evil hearts. Because they thought they could get away with it. Because they were in a position of power and you were helpless. While it is no comfort to you to know all this, and certainly not to minimize the seriousness of the effects on you, I will tell you that this is a very common pattern.
Secondly, you can be absolutely sure that there were others in that place going through the exact same things you were going through. You said that nearly all of the abusers are now dead: if they were not, I would encourage you to speak out so that the others might be delivered/protected.
Thirdly, the whole issue of when we are to forgive is a very complex one biblically. For about six years now I have been writing a book on the biblical principles relating to forgiveness, and I have found that it is one of the hardest subjects to grasp. (That's why it is taking me so long!) On the one hand the Bible definitely and clearly commands us in many places to forgive.
On the other hand, as other posters have already pointed out, God Himself does not forgive unless there is repentance. Does God love everyone equally? Psalm 5:5 and 11:5 tells us that God hates the wicked, the workers of iniquity. In Romans 9:13 refers to Malachi 1:2-4, that God loved Jacob but hated Esau. And in Jeremiah 7:16 God told Jeremiah not to pray for the people of Israel because they were so wicked. (See vs. 9, 10, 11, 18.)
Yet in Matthew 5:44,45, Jesus commands us to pray for them. do good to them, etc. How can we reconcile the two? I'm not sure. I do know this, that if we let ourselves become bitter, it will defile us and those around us. (Hebrews 12:15)
One thing we can try to do to avoid bitterness is to deliberately turn our thoughts away from the wrongs done to us. Memorize Scripture; it will renew your mind (I call it "Mind Vitamins in one of my courses.) Another thing to do is, when we find ourselves thinking about what happened, to start praying fervently for others around the world, highly specific prayer for specific people and their needs.
An illustration I frequently use when teaching is this: if I say to the class, "Stop thinking about purple elephants! Now I don't want hyou to think about purple elephants! Nobody is to think about purple elephants. Thinking about purple elephants is strictly forbidden! Now what are you all thinking about?" Of course, they're all thinking about purple elephants- and the harder they try not to, the more they actually continue to.
But then I say "Think about grapes, green grapes, sweet, cool green grapes. Can't you just taste them? Delicious, green, juicy, refreshing.
"Now what are you thinking about?"
Of course, the answer is supposed to be "green grapes." They'd replaced the one thought with the other. See Philippians 4:8, below.
One time, however, I had a wiseguy in the class, His response? "I'm thinking about the purple elephants eating the green grapes!" You know there's always got to be one in every class!
"Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things." Philippians 4:8
I have had to deal with two family members, including a pastor, who have been in cultic organization where there was immorality and abuse on the part of the leadership (done by others to a family member of my pastor relative). Humanly speaking, there are no easy answers nor quick solutions.
But we do have a Great Physician, a healer of souls, to whom we can go, "Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you." 1 Peter 5:7
< Message edited by TheTruthForum -- 12/17/2008 11:31:13 PM >
_____________________________
Truth... because ideas always have consequences!
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RE: Long after the exit, still hurting - 12/18/2008 12:36:41 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3173
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TheTruthForum --
Thank you for your post. It is appreciated, and I wish to answer some of your points specifically.
Because of Father, I am sure, I have always had a very strong sense of right and wrong, good and evil. Because of this, I understood that Father represented right and good, while Mother represented wrong and evil from my very first memories, which extend from my second year of life. So when the church started abusing me directly, I knew they were wrong while I wasn't, but I still had no idea I could report it, stand against it, or leave it. Therefore, I never admitted that I deserved it and never believed I did. This, in itself, was confusing.
Regarding your second point, that others are experiencing this, yes, I believe it, and that is why I am writing here. The problem is that this church deliberately makes the people extremely fearful of leaving with their promises of calamity, that they are basically imprisoned there. Others who have left look back in shock at what they stayed there and took without any protest and usually without even thought that they were being misused!
I did write a letter, enumerating almost all the abuse, not bringing up what went on where I live now because of family. I sent the letter to each of the living abusers and pastors I had during the abuse as well as to the church board. Their response? Not a single letter or postcard or note back, not a phone call, not a visit (not that I would let them in the door anyway) -- an orchestrated chorus of No Response at all. Now, wasn't that godly? -- especially for church leaders who still hold their positions as church leaders?
Thank you for your advice about forgiveness. I am working hard on this. It's hard. I am taking what you wrote very seriously.
Thank you.
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: Long after the exit, still hurting - 12/23/2008 2:20:52 AM
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lightshineon
Posts: 1800
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Abiyah, I so understand, I am enraged at times at former church members, who hurt my family and me so much. There are also days, where love flows, and I understand our Lord's amazing Grace, and I think I am well. Then last week, someone from former church, attacks my child about situation, during a community play practice, which my child, and the former member are both in. My child was so full of rage last Sunday, I did not, think we were going to make it to the new church we go to now.
Here comes my anger again, I was so blue during last Sundays service. I though of my ministry and such. I was so blue, my husband said my eyes were as blue as the sky. I guess it is true, about the eyes being the windows of the soul. So it starts back over again today, a new day for our Lords mercy and my laying it down one more time. My husband did e-mail, the lady and ask her not to talk to my young teen again, gave her our phone number, and his blog that explained everything. Let you and I pray for one another and ask the Lord, for each other to have forgiveness.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Long after the exit, still hurting - 12/23/2008 12:29:05 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5751
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From: OKLAHOMA
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As I catch up on this thread many things came to mind.
Isn't that the way it is. lol.
We had a Hanukkah Dinner last Sabbath. It was so good.
All the food dishes were so good. Usually there's at least
one or two dishes that aren't fit to eat at a social. lol.
But the food was just great. Too bad I got full on the first
serving. Two of the ladies went out to their cars and brought
in gifts for everyone. There was no preparation about this.
They said we exchanged them last year and assumed we
would do the same this year. But, we had lots of kids around
last year. lol.
Anyway, with an excellent meal, a history lesson on Chanukah,
and then the presents. When they gave me some inexpensive
gifts, it was like a balm on some old wounds. The abuse can
be a double edge sword as well. I've done my best to never
be one of those who would abuse another, but that doesn't mean
that the congregation can not abuse it's pastor. This was a
healing time for this pastor. Just the goodness of the gathering
and the kindness of these two ladies. As Father orchestrates it,
it comes from Him through his children. He brought a little needed
healing from the last three years here.
I just wanted to share that. Thought that perhaps a little healing
here might rub off there. lol.
When in distress, I also refer to Psalms 73.
Asaph the song leader was to the point of giving up.
Then after consulting with the Creator, he considered
his abusers end and had empathy on them.
The abusers are far more worse off than those they abuse.
God is always ever mindful. He doesn't stop or prevent the
abuse in many cases, but He IS ever mindful. May God forgive
them and bring them to right standing before Him.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Long after the exit, still hurting - 12/23/2008 2:22:09 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3173
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I can't be on the computer long, so I read through everything. I will be back later.
I really appreciate everything written here. We are in the midst of a major snow storm (for this area, anyway) right now, so since I can only be on the computer at work right now, I may not make it in tomorrow. I'll get back as soon as I can.
Thank you!
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: Long after the exit, still hurting - 2/1/2009 7:37:36 PM
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vew
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Hi Cavaan_Meshuga...I haven't been on this forum in some time...Therefore, I just read your post to me.
When I'm faced with difficult discisions, I like to look to the Bible for the examples that I need to follow or can apply. I have a few that I think would apply in your case.
God has a required way for us to seek and receive his forgiveness. A person mut acknowledge his sin, reckgonize that it is an offense against God, confess it unqualifiedly, have a deep heartfelt sorrow for the wrong done, and have a determination to turn from such a course or practice. (Psalm 5:23,24; 1John 1:8,9; 2 Co. 7:8-11) He must do what he can to right the wrong or damage done. (Matthew 5:23,24) Then he must pray to God asking for forgiveness on the bases of Christs ransom sacrifice.---Eph. 1:7.
In your case, the very least the offenders should if they want forgiveness from you is acknowledge their sin and ask for your forgiveness.
However, as with everything else in life, we need to seek a blance. When a person has been grieviously wronged, the pain can be immense. This is particularly true (as in your case) when one is the innocent victim of a serious sin.
In any case, much may depend on the offender. I would ask myself. Since the wrongdoing has there been any sign of sincere repentence? Has the sinner changed, perhaps even attempted to make real amends? In God's eyes such repentance is a key to forgiveness even in the case of truly horrendous sins. For example, Jehovah forgave Manessah one of the most wicked kings in Isreal's history. On what bases? God did so because Manessah finally humbled himself and repented of his vile ways.. 2 Chronicles 33:12,13. Certainly he doesn't ask any more of us.
On the other hand, when I personally have been seriously wronged, while I may never forgive the offender......(example. a family member sexually molested my daughter when she was only eight years old.) I do however, let go of the anger and leave the matter in God's hands....knowing that he will make sure that the offending individual will receive his just rewards....Knowing that God is a God of justice, there's no reason for me to take matters into my own hands, or damage my self by carring around all that malace and hate.
The main thing is, my daughter has delt with the offence as well as anyone could...She has now been happily married for 25 years. She has a loving husband that has supported her also......................VEW
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RE: Long after the exit, still hurting - 2/1/2009 9:44:22 PM
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vew
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Hi The Truth Forum...I just wanted to comment on your reference to Matt. 5:44,45. In his sermon on the mount Jesus said: "Continue to love your enemies and pray for those persecuting you."
Some have incorrectly concluded from those words that it would be wrong to look forward to the judgment and punishment of God's enemies. That Jesus did not mean this is shown from his acknowledgment that some persons are condemned to everlasting destruction in Gehenna. He said to some opposers in his day. "Serpents, offspring of vipers, how are you to flee from the judgment of Gehenna? (Matt. 23:33) So the question is, what enemies did Jesus have in mind, for whom Christians are to pray?
Christ was speaking about individuals who in ignorance persecute Jesus desciples. Christians could pray that these persons have their eyes opened to the truth concerning Jehovah and his promises. Even when opposed, Christians do not react with malice, threats and hate. Rather, they continue to show princpled love. (1Pet. 2:23) They know that often persecution comes about because of ignorance on the part of the persecutors. In fact, the apostle Paul wrote: "Formerly I was a persecutor and an insolant man. Nevertheless, I was shown mercy, because I was ignorant and acted with a lack of faith." --1Tim. 1:13.
Realizing this, Christians do not develop the spirit of vengence that we see so prevelant today, the giving back of evil for evil. It is not the course for them........VEW
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RE: Long after the exit, still hurting - 2/20/2009 5:53:46 PM
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c_h_b
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
Abiyah:
You are still "struggling" because you have not done what the Lord has commanded -- forgive those who have hurt you.
What a grossly arrogant and ignorant thing to say. Do you know Abiyah personally, well enough to make this assessment of her state of mind? Anyone with a modicum of pastoral care training knows you don't just throw out the "forgive and forget" formula as you have done without listening, within the realm of a relationship of trust, to what the hurting person has said. Wounds can go quite deep, and the pain from them may or may not stem from unforgiveness. Only time spent getting to know the hurting person, and building trust, can reveal whether unforgiveness is the true issue or not.
Ezra, you may not intend or even realize it, but your response epitomizes the very sort of abuse from which Abiyah is trying to recover. It's the abuse that stems from so-called spiritual leaders who offend out of arrogance. Then they say that if the offended person has a problem, it's that person's fault for being unforgiving.
Perhaps you mean well...
_____________________________
Charles
"Jesus is good medicine, khenoronkhwa!"
Jonathan Maracle and Broken Walls
"We never quarrel about religion, because it is a matter which concerns each man and the Great Spirit."
Red Jacket 1805
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RE: Long after the exit, still hurting - 4/2/2009 6:23:12 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3173
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I guess I basically had two threads that were close on the subject matter. Sorry! On the other thread, I wrote:
quote:
Thank you so much for all the answers to my query. I have been away a few months, because I felt like I needed to concentrate on healing from all the stuff that had occurred.
The good things are these:
I have been able to forgive my parents and move on.
I have been able to let the church go and forgive myself for staying in it so long.
And mainly -- the nightmares about the church have not recurred -- or, at least, I have been unaware of them upon waking -- over the last month plus.
There have been attacks, but as soon as I recognize the source, I've found solace.
G-d is good, and His mercy is everlasting! That's the bottom line!
Thank you, all, for your helpful suggestions and care. They are so appreciated! I am doing very well now, by the grace of our G-d!!!
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: Long after the exit, still hurting - 4/2/2009 8:23:27 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4165
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(((((Abiyah))))) Just wanted to say hi and I've missed seeing you!
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RE: Long after the exit, still hurting - 4/2/2009 8:28:58 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Thank you so much, Stella! I have missed being here. It seems like twice as long as it really was. :-)
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: Long after the exit, still hurting - 4/7/2009 4:19:38 PM
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davelinde
Posts: 475
Joined: 5/5/2006
From: New Jersey
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: c_h_b
What a grossly arrogant and ignorant thing to say. Do you know Abiyah personally, well enough...
...it's that person's fault for being unforgiving.
Perhaps you mean well...
I don't know Abiyah well and it is the nature of forums that advice will be given without knowing people, details etc.
Is there ever a situation where it is OK to hold a grudge and not forgive? (personally I think no, it's never OK). I would not equate the advice to forgive to switching the "fault" from the offender to the offended, although somehow people always hear that... I guess because it can be so hard it is heard as an accusation instead of advice. That's too bad.
Sorry if it sounds trite but when events from long ago still influence our present I don't know where else to start BUT forgiveness. What other starting place would you suggest?
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