Long after the exit, still hurting (Full Version)

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Covaan_Meshuga -> Long after the exit, still hurting (11/29/2008 8:11:53 PM)

When I write on CW, sometimes I realize that I am still So Angry with the old church, its people, and their lack of either response or integrity as well as their inability to admit what they or their ministers have done. But mainly, my response is to push what they did and not deal with it at all.

Why? Because I am ashamed, embarrassed, horrified, aghast at the part I played in it all.

Recently someone who attends my husband's church lent me a book, asking me to read it and write my responses in it beside those things that stood out to me. This woman had been through similar things, but not the sexual harassment. Her church was like my old one in many ways, so she wondered what I was thinking.

I did not have any understanding of the extent of the anger and frustration I still have until I started reading this book. I am not promoting this book necessarily, because I can see that it would have done little for me upon first exiting, but it sure is touching nerves now. It is Recovering From Churches That Abuse by Ronald Enroth, Zondervan Publishing House out of Grand Rapids, MI.

Does anyone here know about some kind of workbook for people exiting an abusive church? I think that may be beneficial.

When I first left, I had all kinds of books on child abuse and a few on church abuse, but I gave them all away. Any recommendations for those?

I am really struggling. The main reason I am struggling is because every abuser in the old church denied everything, and the church supported this. In fact, when I finally sat down and wrote a letter to the organization enumerating the abuses, they chose not to even answer.

Not one person ever admitted what they did to me, and most of them are dead now. In fact, all are dead except the one who lied about me and refused to make it right (which is nothing in comparison to the others) and the one who supported the abuse of my daughter. I never realized before that I think I may hate them. What would you consider the definition of hatred?



RJR_fan -> RE: Long after the exit, still hurting (11/29/2008 8:26:52 PM)

quote:

, and most of them are dead now. In fact, all are dead except the one who lied about me and refused to make it right


Jerry Falwell's recipe for dealing with enemies: love them, forgive them, outlive them. It apparently worked for him, but I'm talking about him, not you.



DrIjames -> RE: Long after the exit, still hurting (11/29/2008 8:30:15 PM)

wow, thats G-ds recipe also



prolifepj -> RE: Long after the exit, still hurting (11/29/2008 11:20:53 PM)

Abiyah,

As a sister and even daughter of the faith, I apologize for how you have been treated by us, the church.
I am so sorry that the many wrongs that were done to you were never acknowledged and tossed aside.
And I am so sorry that it's taken this long for it to be brought up for your complete healing - His timing and ways are so perfect.

Mom recommends this book: Exposing Spiritual Abuse by Mike Fehlauer and also this article.

I'll send you more in a PM.



Ezra -> RE: Long after the exit, still hurting (11/30/2008 12:23:43 AM)

quote:

I am really struggling. The main reason I am struggling is because every abuser in the old church denied everything, and the church supported this. In fact, when I finally sat down and wrote a letter to the organization enumerating the abuses, they chose not to even answer.


Abiyah:

You are still "struggling" because you have not done what the Lord has commanded -- forgive those who have hurt you.

Forgiveness is a Divine prerogative which the Holy Spirit can exercise through the believer. It is Christ in us who forgives others.

But you continue to focus on yourself and your hurt instead of the fact that you yourself may have wronged others but God has forgiven you for Christ's sake. "For in many things we offend all" (James 3:2).

Scripture is quite clear (Mt 5:44):

1. Love your enemies
2. Bless them which curse you
3. Do good to them that hate you
4. Pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.

God put these people in your path to teach you how to forgive and forget. Do so, and you will be at peace. Harbour your resentment and grudges and they will eat you up.



Sammy_S -> RE: Long after the exit, still hurting (11/30/2008 12:59:42 AM)

Wow,I am sorry for what you been through and i dont know how else to help but encourage you to seek after the Lord for he is your all and all.



lw9 -> RE: Long after the exit, still hurting (11/30/2008 1:13:02 AM)

Covaan_Meshuga:

You know you're one of my favorite people on Crosswalk! [:D] I know you've been struggling with this for such a long time, and it cannot be easy to deal with. In reading your post, I had a few thoughts, but they may not be helpful or the right answer for you. Just some suggestions.

Everything you've said makes sense to me as to why you've had a hard time forgiving. It's not just them... it's you. Maybe that's a good place to start. You say you feel shame and guilt. Fair enough. Repent once and for all if you feel the need and unload everything to God. Maybe approach it this time as the big 'clean sweep' and ask God if there's something else you need to look at. Then remember that you are forgiven. Maybe you can begin to forgive them after this.

If you've been waiting for the big breakthrough where they confess and apologize, I'm thinking you're going to have to walk away from that idea because it doesn't look like it's going to happen, ever. It would have been right and helpful to have that sort of response from them, but often it doesn't work out that way and we need to just proceed without it.

I truly hope the book you received is helpful to you. May God bless you, protect you, and comfort you and your precious family!



RJR_fan -> RE: Long after the exit, still hurting (11/30/2008 5:17:34 AM)

quote:

I did not have any understanding of the extent of the anger and frustration I still have until I started reading this book. I am not promoting this book necessarily, because I can see that it would have done little for me upon first exiting, but it sure is touching nerves now. It is Recovering From Churches That Abuse by Ronald Enroth, Zondervan Publishing House out of Grand Rapids, MI.


Excellent book. It's a sequel to Churches That Abuse, by the same author, which I don't believe I've read yet! Recovering ... helped me ride out the emotional roller-coaster of my own exodus many years ago.

Honey, don't let any "Job's Comforters" with snappy instant solutions get you down. If I recall correctly, abusive fellowships hand out bland, bright, vacuous, happy-face masks to all their members. Processing emotional rape takes time. This is a healing process, you will recover, and others have also survived, and learn to thrive again. God has your name engraved on His hands, your picture in His wallet. And you have unknown myriads of people praying for you today, including me.



colliefan -> RE: Long after the exit, still hurting (11/30/2008 3:03:40 PM)

Two things: forgiveness is a decision AND forgiveness is a process. It is a concsious decision to not hold on to the hurt and to leave the offender to God's justice. Also, it is impossible w/o the assistance of the HS.



drfuss -> RE: Long after the exit, still hurting (11/30/2008 4:21:27 PM)

drfuss: Covaan, your situation reminds me of what I went through about 30 years ago. Like your situation, mine involved a church situation where hurtful things that I considered to be untrue, were told about me. Looking back on it, there was a healing process that I went through as follows:
1. I realized that because I was sinner, I deserved much worse treatment than I received in this situation. Christians know this, but sometimes we need to meditate on it.
2. Although they were wrong, I realized that my response was not perfect; and I should have been much more proactive in responding with love to the accusations.
3. I came to realize that they probably justified their actions to themselves, so they saw no reason to correct what happened. (We are all guilty of that type of justification to some extent).
4. I realized that my expectations of them were based on my experiences and not theirs. I had idealized my expectations of them resulting in them not meeting my unrealistic expectations. In this I had made a big mistake by expecting them to meet my unrealistic expectations in their actions.

The Lord brought someone along to teach me a lesson. My Christian co-worker unloaded his troubles on me. He was married and had two children. When they got married, they agreed that each one could occasionally have an affair with someone else; in fact, they joined a monthly couple swapping club. He became a Christian, but she did not. Of course, he refused to continue in the sex club. They continued to stay together. She said that she never agreed to abstain form others mates; so she continued to have an affair with another man once a month with him having to keep the kids on that weekend. Compared to his situation, I realized that my problem was practically no problem at all.

The Lord allows trying situations for our own good. I was very naive about dealing with difficult people. A couple years later, I started an upper managment job with about 70 people working for me. People told me that I was successful in that job. Had I not gone through that difficult experience in dealing with some difficult people in that job, that job would have emotionally "eaten me alive".

So I learned that we should trust that the Lord knows best, while going through difficult experences.

Finally, I came across a poem that was really helpful to me. I would review this poem every day. As you can see, I have kept it after all these years.

IT MATTERS NOT

It matters not if cherished friends
On whom I leaned in vain
Have wounded me by word and deed
And left me with great pain.
What matters is, can I forgive
Again and yet again?
It’s not have they been true, but Lord,
Have I been true to them?

Twill matter not when evening comes
How rough the road I’ve trod
If only I have walked with Him
And led some soul to God.
For when I wake to be like Him
Who saved me by His grace
Earth’s pain will vanish when I catch
One glimpse of His dear face.

-Author Unknown

I don't know if my experience applies to your case or not. Maybe it will be helpful.



LBolt -> RE: Long after the exit, still hurting (11/30/2008 6:06:06 PM)

quote:

Exposing Spiritual Abuse by Mike Fehlauer


This is a good book. My wife and I read from it.

Someone said it earlier, forgiveness is a decision and a process. Also, forgive yourself and...this may seem strange but forgive Yah. Not that He did anything wrong but to flush our own mind of any offenses.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Long after the exit, still hurting (11/30/2008 7:02:27 PM)

I really appreciate your answers. Yesterday, when I wrote the OP, I was falling apart after a tough two days of rage against what they did.

Today, I can see that part of the problem the church had was that I was reared in a known-to-be abusive home, and because of the times, they did all the wrong things, when they did anything at all. They didn't know any better: most in our society then didn't know how to handle these things. Making it worse was the fact that Father was one of the organization's ministers. Enough on that.

But I have a real hard time with the sexual abuse that went on. No, I was never raped but was touched inappropriately by pastors. When it is suggested that I forgive because I deserved worse, I understand to a point, but I cannot relate such thoughts on forgiveness with sexual abuse. My mind cannot grasp that I deserved that and worse. No one deserves or earns that kind of abuse.

But complicating this all the more is the fact that I keep wondering why I feel so violated when all they did was touch. And it hurts to know these guys died without acknowledging what they did.

Further, if I hurt so much over this, what about all those people who were sexually abused so much more than I was? And that, in the past, as always made me discard all my feelings about what they did, invalidating myself. I have decided that I have to stop invalidating myself. It happened, they killed my trust, and they denied that they did it -- one to my face and the others by not acknowledging what they did. (One was just very inappropriate questions of a sexual nature after my first husband had been killed.)

JUST inappropriate questions! It hurt! We were in a church alone, and I had already learned not to trust a previous pastor! I immediate left the building, never returning to my job I had there. And he taught me further that pastors could not be trusted.

In the past, I have just passed off my feelings about what was done over the many years I was there. It hasn't helped to just keep crushing them down, refusing to acknowledge them. I think that the only way to get over this is to face what they did, whether or not that church likes it, no matter how anyone tries to invalidate what happened.

I tried to buy the suggested books but the stores that are open today did not have them. I ended up buying People of the Lie by M Scott Peck, a book I had once used to get over my parents. I was still in the church then and gave it away when I was through dealing with them. I can see now that may help me understand the church better by rereading it. I also bought two workbooks, one by a believer and another one that turned out to be somewhat silly in many respects. That was all that was available, but maybe it's a start.

Thank you, all, for your thoughtful notes and your prayers. I am determined to get beyond this.

Question: what do you think?
I still have to deal with the church people on rare occasion, and I have relatives as well as one friend who are still in it. If they ask question, would you just close the subject or speak honestly?



prophet -> RE: Long after the exit, still hurting (11/30/2008 7:32:20 PM)

quote:

My mind cannot grasp that I deserved that and worse. No one deserves or earns that kind of abuse.


On forgiveness, i can only relate to this:

quote:

Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.


God bless you C_M and may His shalom be showered upon you.....



prolifepj -> RE: Long after the exit, still hurting (11/30/2008 8:08:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga

But I have a real hard time with the sexual abuse that went on. No, I was never raped but was touched inappropriately by pastors. When it is suggested that I forgive because I deserved worse, I understand to a point, but I cannot relate such thoughts on forgiveness with sexual abuse. My mind cannot grasp that I deserved that and worse. No one deserves or earns that kind of abuse.

But complicating this all the more is the fact that I keep wondering why I feel so violated when all they did was touch. And it hurts to know these guys died without acknowledging what they did.


They violated trust, you stated it already- that, to me goes further than a physical violation. One can recover physically much faster than they can emotionally. The very thought that you deserved this is ...[>:]- like you said, no one deserves that. Ministers are held to a high standard Biblically 1 Timothy 3- they are supposed to walk in holiness and integrity. While we cannot ignore that they are indeed people, it doesn't negate the fact they are still called by G-d to a higher standard and those you trusted naturally to walk as such did not. It WAS wrong and the Bible says that those who do not fulfill those obligations are disqualified by G-d (not always man) from the work of the ministry. That also was not followed. Now, I'm all for restoration of the fallen ministers, but in your situation, nothing was ever even acknowledged - that was also very wrong.

quote:

Further, if I hurt so much over this, what about all those people who were sexually abused so much more than I was? And that, in the past, as always made me discard all my feelings about what they did, invalidating myself. I have decided that I have to stop invalidating myself. It happened, they killed my trust, and they denied that they did it -- one to my face and the others by not acknowledging what they did. (One was just very inappropriate questions of a sexual nature after my first husband had been killed.)


I am so glad you wrote this. We cannot compare our situations to someone else's and disregard our own. I do not for one split second believe the L-rd takes what happened to you lightly.

quote:

In the past, I have just passed off my feelings about what was done over the many years I was there. It hasn't helped to just keep crushing them down, refusing to acknowledge them. I think that the only way to get over this is to face what they did, whether or not that church likes it, no matter how anyone tries to invalidate what happened.Thank you, all, for your thoughtful notes and your prayers. I am determined to get beyond this.


quote:

Question: what do you think?
I still have to deal with the church people on rare occasion, and I have relatives as well as one friend who are still in it. If they ask question, would you just close the subject or speak honestly?


sheesh, I dunno - I've always thwarted the topic when it came up, probably not the best idea. [8|]



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Long after the exit, still hurting (12/1/2008 12:55:00 PM)

Again, thank you, everyone. I am trying to absorb everything that has been written, to use it all. It was all so good and necessary.

I do not for one split second believe the L-rd takes what happened to you lightly. This was especially significant to me! I don't want anyone to suffer for what they did; I just want to be healed from it, and for right now, that includes that the living ones not deny what they did. I am so SICK of being called a liar.



Zhi -> RE: Long after the exit, still hurting (12/1/2008 4:48:03 PM)

Unfortunately we can't really force people to face their own faults and wrongdoings. We can just try to move on ourselves, with God's help.

It has helped me, at least, to try to have an eternal perspective on things. Even if they deny it now, they won't be able to deny it before God, and He has promised a final reckoning. There will come a day when they will answer for what they have done, and I find the reassurance that there will someday be an accounting to be good enough, though frankly it has taken awhile. Give yourself time, and give God time to work through it with you.



colliefan -> RE: Long after the exit, still hurting (12/1/2008 5:53:05 PM)

One cannot deny the hurt, but ackowledge the hurt and place the hurt on the cross. In that act of transfer, the healing process can begin.



Liveloved -> RE: Long after the exit, still hurting (12/1/2008 11:49:25 PM)

Oh dear sister,
In many ways I have walked the path you are speaking of. I wish cyberspace could be transcended so my hug could be felt by you. I grieve for what men do in God's name. And I pray daily that the Lord show ME my faults, my errors, my unloving or hurtful acts to others so that I do not harm His church as I have seen others do.

But I can speak words of hope to you because the Lord has brought me through these painful, hurtful experiences and used them mightily in me to make me know His love in greater and greater measure. He will do the same for you. Believe. He will accomplish ALL of His purposes in your life and ALL of His purposes are good.

It is the mystery of our miracle working God Who uses evil, yes even the most heinous evil, for GOOD. I was at the point of wanting to end my life rather than go on. But the Lord would not let me. Instead He reached down in His great love and rescued me. I can't tell you the exact way or how He did it. But He used all of this evil, all of my hurt and pain, and turned it to love. . . for Him and for them. I now live loved. That was His plan for me all along. But it took this path to bring me to this point.

And I will speak to what others have said regarding forgiveness. You see, I do not think God forgives apart from repentance. If a man repents we are to forgive (Luke 17:3,4). And Jesus tells us to pray for our enemies. So I pray for these individuals. I pray that their eyes are opened to their evil and that they be brought to repentance before they stand before God. I have no ill will, no bitterness, no malice toward any of these people. I truly want them to be forgiven by God before they stand before Him. So I pray.

And when I see them, I love them. Jesus died for them. He loves them and wants them to come to repentance as well. As leaders and teachers they will be held to a higher standard.

So seek the Lord. Let His love heal your wounded heart. And then you too will pray for this remaining brother (the one who remains). Bless you dear sister. We are one in Him.[sm=hug.gif] LL



LBolt -> RE: Long after the exit, still hurting (12/2/2008 9:05:37 AM)

You know...Abel's cried out for justice and possibly judgement...but the blood of Moshiach cries out for mercy. The pain is part of the healing process so don't feel bad for hurting but you'll know it is has finished it's course when you are able to look at that person and not feel the sting of bitterness anymore.

Do you forget, not really because to forget about completely will leave you susceptible to it happening again.

I notice that David (Dawid) did not go back to serving Shu'al (Saul) after Shu'al wronged him and tried to kill him...he confronted Shu'al, Shu'al repented but Dawid went back into the cave!! He didn't seek restoration...he sought the cave!! Not all relationships will be mended as before, some will some will not. This is for whoever needs this.

You've made the attempt to confront...now trust Yah to heal you and deal with the individuals as He sees fit and accept His judgements.



floydette -> RE: Long after the exit, still hurting (12/2/2008 9:05:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RJR_fan

Honey, don't let any "Job's Comforters" with snappy instant solutions get you down.



Amen, amen, amen......x 100.



Eutychus -> RE: Long after the exit, still hurting (12/2/2008 9:53:54 AM)

My morning devotion today struck a chord with me with the following observation (my paraphrase of it):

Obedience is not the primary point in our Forgiving those that wrong us. The primary point is Trust; trust that God can bring about good from any harm intended for us and trust that He will bring about the best result in His judgment. When we are able to truly forgive, we are exercising the highest Trust in Abba Father.



LadyFavored -> RE: Long after the exit, still hurting (12/2/2008 12:04:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Liveloved

(And I will speak to what others have said regarding forgiveness. You see, I do not think God forgives apart from repentance. If a man repents we are to forgive (Luke 17:3,4). And Jesus tells us to pray for our enemies. So I pray for these individuals. )

I agree here Liveloved.
As a person of considerable neglect and abuse I do pay attention when coming across scripture that addresses this, or perhaps speaks to me personally. I do pray about it and wait an answer. Ultimately we do have to let go of the bitterness that will cause self destruction.
I believe God uses these things to mold us and use us according to his plan. I have heard it said God is raising up an army. My part will be to encourage others to take a strong stand. Others may be molded into being mild, and meek.
Why I arrive at that is all my life I was quiet, unobtrusive, staying hidden should my presence upset someone. God brought me out teaching me to be very direct when encountering the enemy. Loving but direct. We do have a responsibility to expose sin and evil and protect the weak.

Macolm Smiths teachings on A Righteous Anger helped me understand how God uses anger in his kingdom. We are the righteousness of Christ!

Jeremiah 12:1 Righteous are You, O Lord, when I plead with You;
yet let me talk with You about Your judgments.



Lapidoth -> RE: Long after the exit, still hurting (12/2/2008 12:09:50 PM)

Hi C_M,

Praise God you are who you are and you are what you are.
Many of us suffer the things you describe and we are to pray
one for the other. Yes, we focus on ourselves because it's
happening to us. I feel your pain, but I feel it more when it's
"my" pain. Yet, when one member hurts, the whole body hurts.
So, I will had my thoughts and prayers to those of our other bros.
and sisters. Only the Peace the Prince of Peace offers will heal.

The old saying is that "time heals," but the truth is, it's not time,
but the One who created time. The time is a gift to the created.
Time is a balm in and of itself. I am furious that we have these
things going on in the body of the "church." But, that is not our
Father. It's the opposite of our Father. So, we have to lay our
heads on His shoulder and allow Him to run His gracious hand
over our brow and through our hair with His Word. Praise God
for His Word. He is always the same.

Here's a little thing I picked up in my devotions.
It goes back to Cain and Abel. Abel followed God's plan and
instructions. Cain followed his own ways. While Abel followed
divine reason, Cain used human reason against divine wisdom.

He knew God, but he would not worship Him in God's way.
He was not thankful. He became vain in his imaginations.
His foolish heart was darkened. Professing himself wise he
became a fool. He chose a substitute in place of God's substitute.

I said that to say this. There are more men who bear the "mark"
of Cain than those who lived under any other mark. Cain leads
many of our institutions of thought. Cain edits our papers and magazines.
Cain teaches our students. Cain in ordained to ministry in many
denominations. Cain prays. Cain stands behind the pulpit.

As a daughter of Abraham, the daughter of Father, you have to
see them for what they are. It's taken me nearly 50 years to overcome
the things in my life. The dirty secret is, that things keep coming at us.
But, we have a promise. We have consolation. If not in this life, in
the life to come. We are the ones privileged to have open arms from
the Father.

Sorry, didn't mean to be windy. lol.
I use a saying by Abe Lincoln a lot.
"This too shall pass."



Liveloved -> RE: Long after the exit, still hurting (12/2/2008 1:01:26 PM)

quote:

So, we have to lay our
heads on His shoulder and allow Him to run His gracious hand
over our brow and through our hair with His Word. Praise God
for His Word. He is always the same.


Oh my, Lapidoth. This is it. This is so beautiful. And, yes, this is the 'what', the 'how', that I was seeking to express to CM. Thank you!

Psalm 131 puts it like this:
O Lord, my heart is not proud, nor my eyes haughty;
Nor do I involve myself in great matters,
Or in things too difficult for me.
Surely I have composed and quieted my soul;
Like a weaned child rests against his mother,
My soul is like a weaned child within me;
O Israel, hope in the Lord
From this time forth and forever.

Laying my head on His shoulder. . . and His word flooding over me.

I am writing a song. It begins and is titled Shoulders So Strong.

He has, can and will bear all. Praise the name of Jesus!



raivyne -> RE: Long after the exit, still hurting (12/2/2008 1:24:35 PM)

quote:

My mind cannot grasp that I deserved that and worse. No one deserves or earns that kind of abuse.

But complicating this all the more is the fact that I keep wondering why I feel so violated when all they did was touch. And it hurts to know these guys died without acknowledging what they did.


No one deserves to be abused IMO. We will answer for our life here on earth when we stand in front of His throne and not one minute sooner.

It is very difficult to cope with betrayal and abuse coming from someone who is so revered in the eyes of others. Someone who's supposed to be worthy of respect. You're sitting there thinking that only you can see the monster inside such a person, wondering why no one else can see it. You're supposed to be able to trust people like ministers, teachers, policemen and doctors... When that trust is violated its so very difficult to get over that anger. I understand completely.

Don't worry about these men dying without acknowledging what they've done, they can't hide it from God. They will answer to Him, He will be your vindicator. All accounts will be settled in His time.



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