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The Great Falling Away - Seen as a Great Leap Forward - 12/1/2008 7:24:27 PM
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SonicStudent
Posts: 728
Joined: 10/20/2008
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I don't know about you, but for me, one of the biggest signs that we are quicky approaching the end is how quickly I see much of the Church falling into apostasy. It's falling at a rapid rate, especially within the state churches and the more liberal denominations. It seems every day I read another report of a Gay Bishop being blessed by the church, or church leaders all but denying the exclusivity of Christ as the only saviour, or denying the authority of God's word as they reject passages that they see fit, or promoting same sex marriage as a life style that the church will bless etc. I could post a 100 posts on up to date reports like the one below. The bible says that the man of sin will not be revealed unless we see the great falling away first. Well guess what, here it is! And if this isn't it, I don't know what would be.
All this is without even touching on the many false teachings in recent years that have arisen.
I'm gonna put reports on here as I find them from this day onward, and would be grateful if others did the same.
Thanks,
Mark
------------------------------
Emergent church leader says 'gay' can be biblical lifestyle
One of the key leaders of today's most cutting-edge church movement has opened an Internet discussion on the issue of same-sex marriage with the bold proclamation that he believes "gay, lesbian, bisexual, transsexual and queer" individuals can and should live out their sexuality in – and blessed by – the Christian church.
"I now believe that GLBTQ can live lives in accord with biblical Christianity (as least as much as any of us can!)," writes author and church leader Tony Jones, "and that their monogamy can and should be sanctioned and blessed by church and state."
Jones is an author and former youth pastor who holds a doctorate from Princeton Theological Seminary. He is also the national coordinator of Emergent Village, a loosely formed friendship of churches that derive their descriptive name from having "emerged" from postmodernism to take the gospel of Jesus Christ into a post-Christian Culture....
Read the rest here; http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=81765
_____________________________
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies. Rom 8:33
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RE: The Great Falling Away - Seen as a Great Leap Forward - 12/2/2008 10:51:58 AM
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navyblueret
Posts: 1971
Joined: 11/29/2008
From: S/W Nebraska
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quote:
Jones is an author and former youth pastor who holds a doctorate from Princeton Theological Seminary. He is also the national coordinator of Emergent Village, a loosely formed friendship of churches that derive their descriptive name from having "emerged" from postmodernism to take the gospel of Jesus Christ into a post-Christian Culture....
A fool, no matter the level of 'education,' is still but a fool. Most of the truly wise I have ever met, were uneducated (Formally, that is). Look at all those creeedentialies thar frend. Jimminy-crickit, that thar guy must be realy realy smarte. My point is: a person can act uneducated if desired, and some are educated enough to make others think they are a whole bunch smarter than is inside the 'box,' on top of the shoulders.
The B I B L E says and knows the real truth.
Sorry, you didn't ask for comments, only posts, but I jes cudn't controwl me witto self.
In Messiah, His Shalom. Arley  
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: The Great Falling Away - Seen as a Great Leap Forward - 12/2/2008 1:54:09 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2252
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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quote:
apos•ta•sies: Middle English apostasie, from Late Latin apostasia, from Greek, literally, revolt, from aphistasthai to revolt, from apo- + histasthai to stand — more at stand
1 : renunciation of a religious faith 2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty : defection
Hi Mark...
Remember it is not those of Christ who are falling away…it is those who only claim to belong.
The reason these false claimers never accepted in the first place is because they had sin in their life that they didn’t want to give up. Now they have convinced their self’s that that sin is acceptable and they are OK.
I sincerely believe that all that have names written in the Lambs Book of Life from the foundation of the world will find the true calling into Christ.
What is happening is the world is rapidly falling away from the moral guidance of the word of God; just remember they never belong to God in the first place but to Satan. These false claimers now have a acceptance that they never had before.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Great Falling Away - Seen as a Great Leap Forward - 12/2/2008 2:03:59 PM
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girlbassist
Posts: 118
Joined: 11/19/2008
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Does scripture tell of a falling away of true believers or people who claim Christ on the outside (like the people you're referring to)? I'm hardly a theologian so I'm curious and now, more and more, I'm interested in end time prophecy. I don't know why, but I feel like we're nearing the end (I have nothing to back this up...just my gut) and my sister who is a Christian has always said that she thinks Christ will return before she's old enough for earthly death. I love reading all the stuff in this forum.
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RE: The Great Falling Away - Seen as a Great Leap Forward - 12/2/2008 2:20:20 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2252
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From: Kansas
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girlbassist...the bible tells us that we can't be taken away from God even if we want to be, not once we have accepted Christ into our hearts because we are born again and now belong to Christ/God.
Many claim to be Christians who have never truly accepted Christ into their hearts and attempt to achieve salvation by their good works...being good to others, painting the church and things like that. Since these never truly belong to God there is nothing to stop them from continuing in sin because the Holy Spirit is not there to guide them. These will be the ones that fall away.
There is a small faction of the real Church who believes that a person of Christ can fall away but that is not what the bible teaches;
Can anything ever separate us from Christ's love? Does it mean He no longer loves us if we have trouble or calamity, or are persecuted, or hungry, or destitute, or in danger, or threatened with death? (As the Scriptures say, "For your sake we are killed every day; we are being slaughtered like sheep.") No, despite all these things, overwhelming victory is ours through Christ, who loved us. And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God's love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God's love. Rom 8:35-38
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Great Falling Away - Seen as a Great Leap Forward - 12/2/2008 2:22:06 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2252
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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And yes girlbassist...many think we are nearing the end and that number is growing every day.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Great Falling Away - Seen as a Great Leap Forward - 12/2/2008 4:00:37 PM
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DrIjames
Posts: 44
Joined: 11/16/2008
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This is a great question and I would like to add a reply. There are many signs that are recorded in the Word. One of the greatest is the Nation of Israel forming in 1948. I teach a series on , "Israel, islam and the anti-Christ and there is so much information that even the two services that I require do don't give enough time to cover everything. And even when we think we have it all, there is more . This is one of the most exciting times to live in. Remember that psalms91 says, ..."a thousand may fall at my side , and ten thousand at my right hand, but it will not come nigh me..."
When you attended bible school when I did, or before, they taught us to stay away from the prophetic books, like Daniel and Revelations. I even remember as a child going to church, the only verse ever heard in the service, was,"behold, I stand at the door and Knock" That was it. In Daniel chapter 12 verse 4, we see where G-d told Daniel to .."shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the TIME OF THE END: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased...' It was believed by most scholars that this meant "worldly knowledge, and in dead we have seen great leaps in technology, however it is mostly accepted that this is talking about knowledge in these prophetic writings. 35 years ago when I graduated, we could not understand how the whole world could see the three witnesses killed and see them laying in the streets for three days and then to witness them raised up. Now we see live broadcast from around the world daily. We could not understand the scriptures about eyes melting out of the sockets and the flesh melting away until the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Now we understand.
In the Parable of the Ten Virgins we see a "call go out" that call is stronger today than even in the days of the disciples. Every denomination that has the Spirit of G-d hears this call today, it is in our hearts and souls, it is almost impossible to go outside and not look to the heavens. This is one of the deepest parables in the Word. it is so profound. I do not know how many characters this post will allow so let me touch on the one thing that comes to mind in this passage. The virgins were told to,"trim their lamps", well I am 50 years old so I know about coal oil lamps, I know that to get the brightes and Cleanest light, you have to carefully TRIM the Black burnt part of the wick off and shape it just so. Now here is the thing that gets me excited, we as a church and as individuals are being told to tri our wicks, to get the habitual sins out of our lives , even Paul said, to "lay down the weight that so easily bests us. Many times I have heard people say that we are sinners, no I am a believer and I am a new creature created in Him. Now, I know that John said that if we say we have no sin then we make Him a liar, well, he is saying the same thing that paol said. He is talking to believers, not the unsaved. He is telling believers that if you have a habitual sin that is being hidden, then you need to take it to G-d and confess your sin, or weight that so easily bests you. Yes their is a great falling away and it hurts my heart so deeply. But, we who have trimmed our wicks, we can change things with the word of prayer and interssesion, wow. I like Daniel 12:10. " Many shall be purified, (talking about the end times) and made white, and tried; but hte wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall UNDERSTAND..." Brothers and sisters, if we do have understanding then we have a responsibility with that understanding. I was reading the prophecie in Joel and Acts, that says in the last days, said G-d I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh, your SONS and Daughters will prophicie and your Young Men shall se visions, and your OLD MEN shall see dreams. G-d spoke to me and said. It is the Old Men taht are dreaming dreams and Interceeding that equip these young people to fulfill this Word, wow, so we need to get busy and do this becasue the enemy has the biggest asualt on the young than ever before nad people, some times it looks like he is winning.
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RE: The Great Falling Away - Seen as a Great Leap Forward - 12/2/2008 8:26:46 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 797
Joined: 11/30/2007
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quote:
Remember it is not those of Christ who are falling away…it is those who only claim to belong.
You fall down not up. You have to be with Him in order to fall away. See the parable of the Sower Who sows the seed on various soils. Also Yahshua's 70 of which many 58 left from following Him.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: The Great Falling Away - Seen as a Great Leap Forward - 12/2/2008 8:37:52 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2252
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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Hi LBolt...
So you think a person can walk away from Christ? Just say it's over and I want a divorce?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Great Falling Away - Seen as a Great Leap Forward - 12/2/2008 9:47:19 PM
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whisperingwaters
Posts: 38
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Hi LBolt...
So you think a person can walk away from Christ? Just say it's over and I want a divorce?
Bob
I believe they can. I also believe those comments made by LBolt were good ones.
_____________________________
The words of a man's mouth are as deep waters, and the well-spring of wisdom as a flowing brook. Proverbs 18:4
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RE: The Great Falling Away - Seen as a Great Leap Forward - 12/2/2008 10:14:41 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 804
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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Shalom, whisperingwaters.
quote:
ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Hi LBolt...
So you think a person can walk away from Christ? Just say it's over and I want a divorce?
Bob
I believe they can. I also believe those comments made by LBolt were good ones.
I'm SO glad they can't! Furthermore, if they really think they could walk away, perhaps what they thought was real really wasn't!
John 6:35-40
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
KJV
Please take care not to call Him a liar!
Retrobyter
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RE: The Great Falling Away - Seen as a Great Leap Forward - 12/2/2008 11:33:49 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2252
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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There are those who believe as you do W.W. but you are in the minority and the bulk of scripture does teach that once a person has accepted Christ that he cannot be lost.
I would continue but this thread is not about eternal salvation…that is another thread and if we proceed we will be busted. 
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Great Falling Away - Seen as a Great Leap Forward - 12/3/2008 12:38:15 AM
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bob97
Posts: 2252
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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God bless you brother....
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Great Falling Away - Seen as a Great Leap Forward - 12/3/2008 10:22:21 AM
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bob97
Posts: 2252
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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The long arm of the law...
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Great Falling Away - Seen as a Great Leap Forward - 12/3/2008 11:17:29 AM
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navyblueret
Posts: 1971
Joined: 11/29/2008
From: S/W Nebraska
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
quote:
I would continue but this thread is not about eternal salvation…that is another thread and if we proceed we will be busted.
My finger was hovering over the bust button. 
The only mosquito we dare not swat at. Ha.
Perhaps, believers can 'fall away,' yet 'not be lost.'
When a person accepts salvation, they can never be taken away from Gods hand, but since 'choice' comes into play, that mortal can fall-away, walk-away, run-away, or even fly-away. That makes sense to me, in that, when we are judged, is it not some to 'reward,' and some to 'loss?' Believer judgment does not guarantee that 'all' receive 'reward.'
Just a thought.
In Messiah, His Shalom, and guidance. Arley
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: The Great Falling Away - Seen as a Great Leap Forward - 12/3/2008 4:31:50 PM
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Josh4LinC
Posts: 108
Joined: 11/11/2008
From: Minnesota
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Navy,
I suppose we can look to God's dealing with Israel as a foreshadowing to how he might deal with believers who fall away during this time. Israel would disobey God; be given up to some foreign kingdom; then God would deliver them out and back to Himself. Perhaps, this great falling away described in the Word regarding future events is not a permanent one, but a temporal. In that sense you might be onto something there. Many in the church are getting those itchy ears in greater numbers, and it seems to be spreading to even the most conservative of denominations. Paul could be alluding to such an apostasy in 1 Corinthians 3:14,15:
14. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire
While I want to be careful not to take this passage out of the context in what Paul was writing, I do think it hits on a particular note. Such a falling away could be temporal, but before the end those apostates may turn from their errors and reaffirm their trust in Christ. However, they will only be saved as though they just escaped through fire. This is just my thought, and interpreting this falling away warrants further study and understanding. However, I think this might provide a good starting point to understand the apostasy of believers in that future time.
_____________________________
In Christ Jesus,
Josh
“Well,” says one, “I like to be my own master.” Yes, and that involves two things;
first, you have a very bad master; and, next, your master has a fool for his servant.
- Charles Spurgeon
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RE: The Great Falling Away - Seen as a Great Leap Forward - 12/3/2008 6:34:41 PM
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SonicStudent
Posts: 728
Joined: 10/20/2008
Status: offline
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Yes me too! In the past I've been on forums where arguments turn nasty. You couldn't tell where one discussion started and another ended because of not sticking to topic. And also it was filled with nutters (as religion does seem to attract!) So thanks from me too :)
We on here are border-line nutters, and 'just' about manage to not get kicked out LOL
_____________________________
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies. Rom 8:33
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RE: The Great Falling Away - Seen as a Great Leap Forward - 12/3/2008 7:59:10 PM
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navyblueret
Posts: 1971
Joined: 11/29/2008
From: S/W Nebraska
Status: offline
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Sonic started with
'I don't know about you, but for me, one of the biggest signs that we are quickly approaching the end is how quickly I see much of the Church falling into apostasy. It's falling at a rapid rate, especially within the state churches and the more liberal denominations.'
Shalom, As a 'newby' here, I am not quite used to the tight rule system.
The falling away is to a point, in some areas, that doors are being shut, and locked on Church buildings almost as fast as the housing foreclosures. The 'future' falling away will very soon be considered in the past-tense.
Guess I will close, as I feel awkward about not being able to address the other half of the coin.
Shalom. Arley
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: The Great Falling Away - Seen as a Great Leap Forward - 12/3/2008 9:31:55 PM
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SonicStudent
Posts: 728
Joined: 10/20/2008
Status: offline
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Hi Navyblueret, and a huge welcome to you.
Although it is very true that compared to the past (in the UK at least, I can't speak for else where) church attendance is way down and I've seen many churches shut up shop :(
And I can see many reasons for this. A typical visit I made to one of our state churches recently worshiped God in a sombre traditional style. Followed by a structured prayer from the 'book of prayer'. Read several verses from the bible, without any real teaching, and even when there was a teaching, it only taught from a moral humanist stance, and not with any real spiritual insight. Managing to avoid any read spiritual application of grace or the great mysteries of God's plan or love. Two more sombre hymns, another repetitive prayer and then home you go.
So folks that attend this type of gathering, get little out of it. The average person that only goes to church for a christening, wedding or funeral, only sees this image of Christianity, and as it fails to hold much relevance to their lives, they never find the desire to attend, become Christian or question God.
Another reason people loose faith in the Church is when they read their news papers, or watch the news, and see the church selling out. Denying basic faith statements, blessing sin as with gay unions and gay bishops etc. The church (or alleged church) looses it's credibility of being the bringer of truth and salvation.
The truth, as you know, is that these ministers of both these examples never truly believed the gospel or truly loved the truth, or they would have understood the gospel.
However, I believe this is why we see churches close.
Having said that, I don't necessarily think that slacking church attendance is the falling away, or great apostasy!
The falling away that Paul talks of that is prophesied, is the 'moving away' from the truth and saving power of Christ. As new and wonderful teachings are brought into the church, teachings that twist the truth of the bible to tickle Christians ears, that enables us to 'be Christian', yet remain selfish, self centred, sinful and idolatrous. Then there is the apostasy we see put forward by liberal beliefs, denying that Christ is the only way, but ‘A’ way. Denying the trinity, teaching Christ isn’t enough, but works also. Denying the virgin birth or the existence of hell or judgement or the miracles of Jesus, or the reality of Adam and eve, or creation, or the flood etc etc etc….. As peoples faith turns away from Christ and they deny the truth that He alone saves. Whether they leave for another faith, or mix their faith in Christ with false teaching that denies Christ’s finished work as our only hope, or begin to believe that we are not to be judged, therefore don’t need to repent etc. This is the apostasy! The removal from true faith in Christ! – Denying God’s power and truth!
The apostasy isn’t necessarily people leaving the church, but rather denying the truth, denying Christ, through the trickery of men and the devil.
Take good care friend, Shalom and God bless :)
Mark AKA Sonic :)
_____________________________
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies. Rom 8:33
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RE: The Great Falling Away - Seen as a Great Leap Forward - 12/3/2008 11:18:12 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 804
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, Josh4LinC.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Josh4LinC
Navy,
I suppose we can look to God's dealing with Israel as a foreshadowing to how he might deal with believers who fall away during this time. Israel would disobey God; be given up to some foreign kingdom; then God would deliver them out and back to Himself. Perhaps, this great falling away described in the Word regarding future events is not a permanent one, but a temporal. In that sense you might be onto something there. Many in the church are getting those itchy ears in greater numbers, and it seems to be spreading to even the most conservative of denominations. Paul could be alluding to such an apostasy in 1 Corinthians 3:14,15:
14. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire
While I want to be careful not to take this passage out of the context in what Paul was writing, I do think it hits on a particular note. Such a falling away could be temporal, but before the end those apostates may turn from their errors and reaffirm their trust in Christ. However, they will only be saved as though they just escaped through fire. This is just my thought, and interpreting this falling away warrants further study and understanding. However, I think this might provide a good starting point to understand the apostasy of believers in that future time.
I believe that fantasy and imagination are both human beings' greatest strength and their greatest "Achilles' heel!"
Therefore, it is important that we FREQUENTLY GO BACK TO THE SCRIPTURES when dealing with a particular issue. This is one such case: I believe that we need to get back to WHERE the Scriptures say there will be a "falling away." We need to see this in context before letting our imaginations run wild and harness our speculations. Some have already speculated that this falling away is of the believers. We need to be VERY careful that we can justify our first speculation before we build upon it.
2 Thess 2:1-4
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV
Naturally (naturally?!  ), I don't agree with the first assessment...exactly. Again, I believe that we should take a look at the Greek:
2 Thess 2:1-4
1 Erootoomen de humas adelfoi huper tees parousias tou Kuriou heemoon Ieesou Christou kai heemoon episunagoogees ep' auton,
2 eis to mee tacheoos saleutheenai humas apo tou noos meede throeisthai meete dia pneumatos meete dia logou meete di' epistolees hoos di' heemoon hoos hoti enesteeken hee heemera tou Kuriou [Christou].
3 Mee tis humas exapateesee kata meedena tropon: hoti ean mee elthee hee apostasia prooton kai apokalufthee ho anthroopos tees anomias, ho huios tees apooleias,
4 ho antikeimonos kai huperairomenos epi panta legomenon Theon ee sebasma hooste auton eis ton naon tou Theou kathisai, apodeiknunta heauton hoti estin Theos.
1 Erootoomen = We beg
de = but
humas, = you,
adelfoi, = brothers,
huper = over; upon; by
tees = the
parousias = a being near; advent
tou = of the
Kuriou = Master; Lord
heemoon = of us; our
Ieesou = Yeshua`
Christou = Messiah
kai = and
heemoon = of us; our
episunagoogees = gather together upon
ep' (epi) = upon; above; unto
auton, = him,
2 eis = into
to = the
mee = not
tacheoos = speedily; rapidly
saleutheenai = to waver; agitate
humas = you
apo = away from; off
tou = the
noos = intellect; mind
meede = nor; neither
throeisthai = be wailing; be frightened
meete = nor; neither
dia = through
pneumatos = spirit; attitude
meete = nor; neither
dia = through
logou = word
meete = nor; neither
di' (dia) = through
epistolees = letter
hoos = like; as
di' (dia) = through
heemoon, = us,
hoos = like; as
hoti = that
enesteeken = to place on hand; impend; to stand in
hee = the
heemera = day
tou = of the
Kuriou = Master; Lord
[Christou]. = [Messiah].
3 Mee = Not
tis = anyone
humas = you
exapateesee = allow to seduce completely
kata = down; by; according to
meedena = any
tropon: = turn:
hoti = for
ean = if
mee = not (unless)
elthee = there come
hee = the
apostasia = to stand away
prooton = first
kai = and
apokalufthee = to take off the cover; to reveal
ho = the
anthroopos = man; human being
tees = the
anomias, = against Torah,
ho = the
huios = son
tees = the
apooleias, = ruin; loss,
4 ho = the; who
antikeimonos = to lie opposite
kai = and
huperairomenos = to lift himself over
epi =above
panta = all
legomenon =that is called
Theon = God
ee = or
sebasma = something adored
hooste = thus therefore
auton = he
eis = into
ton = the
naon = Temple
tou = of [the]
Theou = God
kathisai, = sits,
apodeiknunta = showing off; exhibiting
heauton = himself
hoti = that
estin = he is
Theos. = God.
1 But we beg you, brothers, upon the Being-Near [Advent] of our Master Yeshua` Messiah and our gathering together unto Him,
2 that you not be into rapidly agitating away from the intellect nor [into] being frightened--not through attitude nor through word nor through letter as [though] through us--like that Day of the Master [Messiah] is at hand.
3 Do not allow anyone to completely seduce you down any turn: for unless there first come the standing away and the cover is taken off the man against the Torah, the son of ruin,
4 who lies oppositely and lifts himself upon above all that is called god or something adored; thus therefore he sits in the Temple of the God, exhibiting himself that he is God.
Two key things are to be found here:
First, the key person here is the man who is against the Torah. Torah is not just the "Law," as so many Christians seem to think it is. It's actually better to translate the word "Instruction" rather than "Law." Furthermore, this Instruction is to be found in all five of the first books of the Bible, not just in the 613 commandments of Sh'mot (Exodus) and Vayikra (Leviticus), expanded in B'midbar (Numbers) and repeated in D'varim (Deuteronomy). It's also found in B'resheet (Genesis) and the historical portions of these books as well! The men and women of these historical portions were examples for us to follow--examples of FAITH.
Second, this passage is NOT about the simpleton's dichotomy of "saved/unsaved," the trap into which many short-sighted Christians fall. It's about an "apostasia," a "standing away." It's not that they are "reverting to their 'unsaved' lifestyles"; it's about standing back to see what happens! It's similar to that decisive day in which Eliyahu challenged the 450 prophets of Ba'al. What did he say to the children of Isra'el?
1 Kings 18:21
21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.
KJV
See what I mean? IT'S THE SAME ATTITUDE! No commitment! They don't agree, but then they also don't disagree. Why? Because they are uncertain of what is the truth! This is the concept behind the "apostasia."
Retrobyter
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RE: The Great Falling Away - Seen as a Great Leap Forward - 12/4/2008 12:42:38 AM
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Josh4LinC
Posts: 108
Joined: 11/11/2008
From: Minnesota
Status: offline
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Thanks for the insight, Retro. So, am I understanding your message correctly? The apostasy is as though the people say to the man of lawlessness, "Alright, let's see what you can offer us? Show us what you got." More like they are shopping around before committing to one or the other? Though, it would seem to me that this would lead to many people's destruction. If I'm misunderstanding you, it could be that I misread something due to lack of sleep.
Thanks for you understanding on this matter. I appreciate it.
_____________________________
In Christ Jesus,
Josh
“Well,” says one, “I like to be my own master.” Yes, and that involves two things;
first, you have a very bad master; and, next, your master has a fool for his servant.
- Charles Spurgeon
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RE: The Great Falling Away - Seen as a Great Leap Forward - 12/4/2008 12:46:55 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 804
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, Josh4LinC.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Josh4LinC
Thanks for the insight, Retro. So, am I understanding your message correctly? The apostasy is as though the people say to the man of lawlessness, "Alright, let's see what you can offer us? Show us what you got." More like they are shopping around before committing to one or the other? Though, it would seem to me that this would lead to many people's destruction. If I'm misunderstanding you, it could be that I misread something due to lack of sleep.
Thanks for you understanding on this matter. I appreciate it.
Yes, that's pretty much how I see it. The point is that PC will be in such vogue that they will "say neither yea nor nay" until it's the IN thing to follow this man against the Torah. Then, they will jump on the bandwagon because it's the "sophisticated" thing to do!
Roy
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