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Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order to go to heaven?
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[Poll]
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Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order to go to heaven?
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| Maybe/Not Sure |
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Total Votes : 145
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(last vote on : 11/23/2009 1:58:36 PM)
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Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order to ... - 12/9/2008 7:16:28 PM
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ChristFollower21
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Is being the baptized the only way we can enter heaven, wasn't Jesus dying on the cross effecient enough. What do you think?
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Romans 3:23 KJV" For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God"
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/9/2008 7:22:34 PM
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ta_mosquito
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Moving from The Bible to Salvation Issues.
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/9/2008 8:10:36 PM
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Qtman
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Baptism is an outward expression of an inner event. Should we be baptized. I believe so. Jesus Himself set the example and I believe we should follow. Does baptism grant salvation. No. I can dip my black lab under the water all day long and say all the right words and in the end all I have is a wet dog. The thief on the cross was not baptized. There are cases where someone has accepted Christ as their Savior and was killed prior to being baptized. They were still saved and are in Heaven. So is it required. Not in the sense of salvation. However is arguably is from the standpoint of following Jesus' example.
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At one time Jesus was my co-pilot. Things are much better now that He and I have changed seats.
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/9/2008 10:48:30 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1585
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChristFollower21
Is being the baptized the only way we can enter heaven, wasn't Jesus dying on the cross effecient enough. What do you think?
Obviously baptism is not the way to heaven. We are save by grace through faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The fact that God chooses to apply His grace to us when we are baptized in no way makes baptism the only way to heaven.
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/9/2008 10:51:53 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1585
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
Baptism is an outward expression of an inner event. Should we be baptized. I believe so. Jesus Himself set the example and I believe we should follow. Does baptism grant salvation. No. I can dip my black lab under the water all day long and say all the right words and in the end all I have is a wet dog. The thief on the cross was not baptized. There are cases where someone has accepted Christ as their Savior and was killed prior to being baptized. They were still saved and are in Heaven. So is it required. Not in the sense of salvation. However is arguably is from the standpoint of following Jesus' example.
I agree that baptism is an outward expression of an inner event. But apparently its a required outward expression of that inner event as I don't see anyone in the New Testament becoming a Christian without being baptized. The thief on the cross is not an example of that since he was saved before Christian baptism was even instituted.
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/10/2008 7:18:03 AM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
The thief on the cross is not an example of that since he was saved before Christian baptism was even instituted.
Really? Wasn't John's baptism instituted prior to the thief's death? If you recall Jesus asked posed the dilemma to the Pharisees and scribes "Was John's baptism of God or of man?" We know the answer, or else the Scribes and Pharisees had no dilemma.
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Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/10/2008 8:55:43 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
The thief on the cross is not an example of that since he was saved before Christian baptism was even instituted.
Really? Wasn't John's baptism instituted prior to the thief's death? If you recall Jesus asked posed the dilemma to the Pharisees and scribes "Was John's baptism of God or of man?" We know the answer, or else the Scribes and Pharisees had no dilemma.
Certainly, John's baptism was instituted prior to the thief's death, and no doubt it was of God. But while John's baptism was a baptism of repentance, it didn't result in one becoming a member of the church of Christ since the church had not yet been started. Christian baptism, however, does admit one into the church of Christ.
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/10/2008 9:44:38 AM
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Qtman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
The thief on the cross is not an example of that since he was saved before Christian baptism was even instituted.
Really? Wasn't John's baptism instituted prior to the thief's death? If you recall Jesus asked posed the dilemma to the Pharisees and scribes "Was John's baptism of God or of man?" We know the answer, or else the Scribes and Pharisees had no dilemma.
Certainly, John's baptism was instituted prior to the thief's death, and no doubt it was of God. But while John's baptism was a baptism of repentance, it didn't result in one becoming a member of the church of Christ since the church had not yet been started. Christian baptism, however, does admit one into the church of Christ.
I'm sorry but baptism does not let you into anything except maybe a denomination of a church here on earth. THe only thing thats lets you into the Church of Christ is salvation. Granted baptism is outward sign that you have been saved but baptism in and of itself means nothing. Being baptized with out salvation is well just getting wet.
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At one time Jesus was my co-pilot. Things are much better now that He and I have changed seats.
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/10/2008 9:51:34 AM
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Restored_Heart
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quote:
Christian baptism, however, does admit one into the church of Christ.
If Baptism were a requirement, wouldn't Paul have included that here?
Roman 10:9-10
9 if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 With the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation.
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It not that I don't think that the health care system needs reformation, but with the Gov't's track record, I fear that it will be like trying to sculpt a statute of my great-grandmother by using a shotgun.
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/10/2008 11:11:42 AM
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bob97
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Has God changed his rules...when and where was Abraham baptized? I thought it always said by faith was Abraham saved...maybe I missed something.
Bob
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/10/2008 11:51:27 AM
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ChristFollower21
Posts: 85
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
Baptism is an outward expression of an inner event. Should we be baptized. I believe so. Jesus Himself set the example and I believe we should follow. Does baptism grant salvation. No. I can dip my black lab under the water all day long and say all the right words and in the end all I have is a wet dog. The thief on the cross was not baptized. There are cases where someone has accepted Christ as their Savior and was killed prior to being baptized. They were still saved and are in Heaven. So is it required. Not in the sense of salvation. However is arguably is from the standpoint of following Jesus' example.
I agree 100%, thank you so much for putting the scenario of the thief on the cross. I believe we should get baptized but doesnt mean if we don't we are condemed. I try to explain it to someone and they blew up in my face, but thanks so much for your comment.
_____________________________
Romans 3:23 KJV" For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God"
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/10/2008 12:35:16 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1585
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
I'm sorry but baptism does not let you into anything except maybe a denomination of a church here on earth.
I disagree based on Romans 6:3-4 which says we are are baptized into Christ.
quote:
THe only thing thats lets you into the Church of Christ is salvation.
Amen, I agree.
quote:
Granted baptism is outward sign that you have been saved but baptism in and of itself means nothing. Being baptized with out salvation is well just getting wet. While I agree that being baptized without belief is just getting wet, I don't believe that baptism means nothing. The very fact that it's even required tells me that it must mean something. I don't believe that God was ask us to do something that means nothing.
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/10/2008 12:39:22 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1585
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From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Restored_Heart
If Baptism were a requirement, wouldn't Paul have included that here?
Roman 10:9-10
9 if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 With the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation.
Since Paul had already written about baptism in Romans 6, he may have thought his readers already understood that it was a requirement. No need to mention it again here.
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/10/2008 12:42:49 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1585
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From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Has God changed his rules...when and where was Abraham baptized? I thought it always said by faith was Abraham saved...maybe I missed something.
Bob
No, I don't think you missed anything. Christian baptism simply wasn't part of Old Testament faith, since it was not even instituted until the Day of Pentecost -- as recorded in Acts 2.
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/10/2008 1:26:46 PM
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bob97
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greatdivde...
Was not Abraham saved by the blood of Christ under the terms of the New Covenant...the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world?
Old Testament or New Testament...the salvation of Abraham was obtained the same as ours today...by faith. 
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/10/2008 4:50:38 PM
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CheshireMuse
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I have always believed that baptism is an outward expression before witnesses of an inward decision to change. However, I do not believe that baptism is essential for salvation.
John 4:2 notes that Jesus did not baptize new disciples, the other disciples did.
1 Cor 14 has Paul saying that he's glad he didn't baptize anyone except for Gaius, Crispus and Stephanas' household. In verse 17, he states that Christ did not send him to baptize, but to preach.
If salvation hinged on baptism, it seems to me that Paul would have done more than his fair share of it - as well as Jesus....
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/10/2008 5:46:22 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Certainly, John's baptism was instituted prior to the thief's death, and no doubt it was of God. But while John's baptism was a baptism of repentance, it didn't result in one becoming a member of the church of Christ since the church had not yet been started. Christian baptism, however, does admit one into the church of Christ.
All of Jesus' disciples were baptized by either John the Baptist or his followers and we have absolutely no record of them being rebaptized. If it wasn't Christian baptism, then it didn't count. Come 'on. You can do better than that. Anything else you want to make up?
quote:
If that's true then why did Peter on the day of Pentecost not tell the people, when they asked what they should do, that they do absolutely nothing because they were already saved since they were already devout people?
Let me suggest that you not reframe Bob's words. Abraham was righteous, not because he was devout, but because he loyally entrusted himself to God.
The Jews to whom Peter had spoken were devoted to the Law, through which no one could receive salvation. In any event, both John and Jesus had been calling for the Jews to make a complete break with Judaism, since it was on its way out. God was going to destroy the Nation (not obliterate) and water baptism was a sign that a Jew did not want to be included with the destruction when it was to come.
It was essentially a warning to "save [them]selves" from the generation that God was going to destroy. It was not a universal call signifying baptism as a condition for going to heaven.
Is your interpretation that Acts 2:38 is a cornerstone of your baptismal regeneration view?
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 12/10/2008 6:04:17 PM >
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Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/10/2008 7:44:06 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1585
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From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CheshireMuse
I have always believed that baptism is an outward expression before witnesses of an inward decision to change. However, I do not believe that baptism is essential for salvation.
John 4:2 notes that Jesus did not baptize new disciples, the other disciples did.
1 Cor 14 has Paul saying that he's glad he didn't baptize anyone except for Gaius, Crispus and Stephanas' household. In verse 17, he states that Christ did not send him to baptize, but to preach.
If salvation hinged on baptism, it seems to me that Paul would have done more than his fair share of it - as well as Jesus....
I agree that Jesus did not baptize new disciples, but of course Christian baptism would not be instituted until after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. After all, according to Paul, that's what baptism is a symbol of.
As for 1 Corinthians 1 Paul is talking about divisions in the church not baptism when he says he's glad he didn't baptize many people in the church in Corinth. Apparently the Corinthians were making a big deal out of who they were baptized by and dividing the church thereby. Paul didn't what to take away from the true meaning of baptism by them attributing anything to him in baptism. And I'm sure that Paul did baptize his fair share of people, but we know that Paul's primary mission was the preach the gospel. That in no way says that Paul thought baptism was unnecessary.
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/10/2008 7:48:12 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1585
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
All of Jesus' disciples were baptized by either John the Baptist or his followers and we have absolutely no record of them being rebaptized. If it wasn't Christian baptism, then it didn't count. Come 'on. You can do better than that. Anything else you want to make up?
All of what you say is true except the part about me making stuff up. And no, the baptism of John didn't count as far as admitting people into the church and them receiving the Holy Spirit. That's why the men that Paul ran into in Ephesus who knew only the baptism of John had to be baptized with Christian baptism.
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/10/2008 8:57:05 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1585
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From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Let me suggest that you not reframe Bob's words. Abraham was righteous, not because he was devout, but because he loyally entrusted himself to God. Yes, agreed.
quote:
The Jews to whom Peter had spoken were devoted to the Law, through which no one could receive salvation. In any event, both John and Jesus had been calling for the Jews to make a complete break with Judaism, since it was on its way out. God was going to destroy the Nation (not obliterate) and water baptism was a sign that a Jew did not want to be included with the destruction when it was to come. Agree with your assessment of the situation, however, I think there's more to baptism than merely a sign to the Jews about the coming destruction.
quote:
It was essentially a warning to "save [them]selves" from the generation that God was going to destroy. It was not a universal call signifying baptism as a condition for going to heaven. If what you say is true, then why did the Apostles continue the practice even to the Gentiles? And if the purpose of baptism was as you state, then what is it's purpose today and when did the purpose change?
quote:
Is your interpretation that Acts 2:38 is a cornerstone of your baptismal regeneration view?
Since I don't believe in baptismal regeneration the answer to your question is no.
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/11/2008 7:15:31 AM
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makarizo
Posts: 2522
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Has God changed his rules...when and where was Abraham baptized? I thought it always said by faith was Abraham saved...maybe I missed something.
Bob
by faith, Abraham obeyed/took action/ walked, and had he not not, he never would have been mentioned in Hebrews 11
"repent and be baptized"
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/11/2008 11:37:59 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
All of what you say is true except the part about me making stuff up. And no, the baptism of John didn't count as far as admitting people into the church and them receiving the Holy Spirit. That's why the men that Paul ran into in Ephesus who knew only the baptism of John had to be baptized with Christian baptism.
Look. I'll retract my point about you making stuff up. But you are so entrenched in your position that you are following a herd mentality in support of those in the CoC camp, et al. For all intents and purposes you are stating things that are not consistent with the biblical record.
1) You still didn't answer the point about Jesus' disciples. Their baptism was from John the Baptist also. That is, they were baptized by John. If John's baptism didn't count, you have not explained why Jesus' disciples were not rebaptized.
2) The Ephesian disciples of Acts were not rebaptized because it was John the Baptist's baptism. They were rebaptized because their knowledge of its purpose was incomplete.
They were baptized "unto John's baptism" (19:3). Paul said John was "telling them to believe in the one who was to come after, namely Jesus..." (19:4). THAT, the Ephesian disciples either didn't hear or someone didn't tell them. The essential core of the Gospel (The Christ is coming, receive Him)----OR--- Christ has already come, receive Him---that is something those Ephesian disciples had missed altogether.
So let's dispense with the absurd notion that John's baptism didn't count. A significant number of the early church probably had John's baptism but no other subsequent baptism that we are told about.
quote:
Agree with your assessment of the situation, however, I think there's more to baptism than merely a sign to the Jews about the coming destruction.
Ok, agreed. But to make this a universal statement of the gospel is also untrue.
quote:
If what you say is true, then why did the Apostles continue the practice even to the Gentiles? And if the purpose of baptism was as you state, then what is it's purpose today and when did the purpose change?
Why did they do what, baptize to the remission of sins---or just baptize? There are a number of reasons to baptize. It doesn't necessitate baptism for the purpose of salvation, just because one baptizes.
Let's clarify what the disciples preached and practiced. They continued to baptize, both Jews and Gentiles. Baptism--for the remission of sins was not preached nor practiced subsequent to Acts 2:38, unless it was practiced and practiced to Jews.
quote:
Since I don't believe in baptismal regeneration the answer to your question is no.
You may object to the use of the term. But like it or not, the position you espouse is called baptismal regeneration.
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Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/11/2008 12:16:11 PM
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jimr1
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My understanding of baptism is that when we come to believe. The holy spirit baptises us into the body of Christ, the church, his bride. Therefore your salvation is complete. Water baptism is after the fact. It just makes a statement to the world of who you are, and what you believe.
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Bless the Lord, Oh my soul. I thank the Lord that one day I too will be changed. I will shed this body of corruption and put on a new incorruptable body.
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/11/2008 12:33:48 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jimr1
My understanding of baptism is that when we come to believe. The holy spirit baptises us into the body of Christ, the church, his bride. Therefore your salvation is complete. Water baptism is after the fact. It just makes a statement to the world of who you are, and what you believe.
That is commonly taught and is based on Romans 6:3 "Or do you not know that as many as have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?" The interpretation happens because the baptizer is not specifically identified and is assumed to be the Holy Spirit. I would suggest that a better explanation is that the baptizer is the human person who baptizes us with water. It never says baptize INTO water, although English readers think that is the analogy. If water and Jesus were the analogous parts, it would say were baptized "WITH Jesus." I think water is not mentioned but should be understood. Jesus Christ should be one with the purpose of water baptism. I do not think the HS is in view in Romans 6.
The analogy is very involved and a more lengthy post I might write would answer questions you haven't even asked.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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