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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order to go to heaven?
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[Poll]
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Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order to go to heaven?
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| Maybe/Not Sure |
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Total Votes : 145
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(last vote on : 11/23/2009 1:58:36 PM)
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/11/2008 1:40:45 PM
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jimr1
Posts: 29
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Maybe I misunderstood , I' m not sure what your saying. What do you really believe baptizem consists of?
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Bless the Lord, Oh my soul. I thank the Lord that one day I too will be changed. I will shed this body of corruption and put on a new incorruptable body.
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/11/2008 1:56:57 PM
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apostolic862004
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So what i am gathering is that whether or not you are baptized, you can still get into heaven. So there are two ways to get to heaven: Baptized and un-baptized.
Well, can you get into heaven without repentance? Can you get into heaven without the Holy Ghost? (Holy Spirit if you prefer) In Acts 2:38, Peter responded to the question of what to do to be save by saying Repent, be baptized, and you shall receive the Holy Ghost. How can you remove one and say its ok?
In Acts 2:38 Peter said that baptism is for the remission of sins. Romans 6:3-5 make it very clear that we take part in his burial BY baptism. How then can it be said that baptism is ONLY an outward confession of faith? Does that mean everyone who has not been baptized is ASHAMED of their faith? Apparently so because they don't want anybody to know.
As for the theif on the cross, If our baptism is symbolic of us taken part in Jesus' burial, how could the theif have done that if Jesus hadn't even died yet?!
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/11/2008 2:04:29 PM
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CheshireMuse
Posts: 119
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: CheshireMuse
I have always believed that baptism is an outward expression before witnesses of an inward decision to change. However, I do not believe that baptism is essential for salvation.
John 4:2 notes that Jesus did not baptize new disciples, the other disciples did.
1 Cor 14 has Paul saying that he's glad he didn't baptize anyone except for Gaius, Crispus and Stephanas' household. In verse 17, he states that Christ did not send him to baptize, but to preach.
If salvation hinged on baptism, it seems to me that Paul would have done more than his fair share of it - as well as Jesus....
I agree that Jesus did not baptize new disciples, but of course Christian baptism would not be instituted until after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. After all, according to Paul, that's what baptism is a symbol of.
I disagree. John had been baptizing people before Jesus really began His ministry. He even baptized Jesus. Jesus' disciples were baptizing people as well - before His death. If Christian baptism wasn't instituted until after Christ died, why were they doing it well before He died?
As for 1 Corinthians 1 Paul is talking about divisions in the church not baptism when he says he's glad he didn't baptize many people in the church in Corinth. Apparently the Corinthians were making a big deal out of who they were baptized by and dividing the church thereby. Paul didn't what to take away from the true meaning of baptism by them attributing anything to him in baptism. And I'm sure that Paul did baptize his fair share of people, but we know that Paul's primary mission was the preach the gospel. That in no way says that Paul thought baptism was unnecessary.
Yes, the verse in Corinthians (contextually speaking) is referring to division in the church there. However, the fact that Paul stated he was "glad" he didn't baptize anyone other than the few mentioned strikes me as odd, if the act is a necessary part of salvation.
I have nothing against baptism. I've been baptized. However, I do not believe that baptism is a requirement to enter God's Kingdom.
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Peace,
Muse
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/11/2008 2:26:41 PM
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CheshireMuse
Posts: 119
Joined: 8/23/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: apostolic862004
So what i am gathering is that whether or not you are baptized, you can still get into heaven. So there are two ways to get to heaven: Baptized and un-baptized.
Whoa, there.... thats quite a leap to make. Baptism vs. non-baptism doesn't equate to two ways into heaven. There is ONE way to heaven - and that is thru the Blood of God's Son, Jesus Christ.
Well, can you get into heaven without repentance? Can you get into heaven without the Holy Ghost? (Holy Spirit if you prefer) In Acts 2:38, Peter responded to the question of what to do to be save by saying Repent, be baptized, and you shall receive the Holy Ghost. How can you remove one and say its ok?
It's the repenting thats important, not the getting wet. Now, I'm not saying we shouldn't be baptized. I think we should - even if it's for no other reason than Jesus did it.... But, I do not believe scripture supports baptism by water as a condition of salvation. The Holy Ghost comes upon us when we surrender to Jesus' will and become saved - not when we get wet. Also, you're correct - there can be no salvation without repentance - but repentance is not contingent on getting dunked. It is a condition of the heart and mind.
In Acts 2:38 Peter said that baptism is for the remission of sins.
I disagree. REPENTANCE is for remission of sins.. not baptism. Reread the passage.
Romans 6:3-5 make it very clear that we take part in his burial BY baptism.
Baptism was an outward symbol of the decision to become a follower of Christ. It was an act that symbolized being born into the Church. It is by our repentance and our surrender to His will that we partake of His death/burial and resurrection.
How then can it be said that baptism is ONLY an outward confession of faith?
Let me ask you this - can a person be a Christian and not be a member of a church congregation? Baptism was the equivalent of joining a church. It still is to an extent. If a person has just been saved, they can join a congregation by being baptized and making a public profession of faith.
Does that mean everyone who has not been baptized is ASHAMED of their faith? Apparently so because they don't want anybody to know.
Of course not! That's ridiculous. My husband has been saved for over 6 years. He has never been baptized. No one would ever mistake him for anything except a Christian. He is most outspoken about his faith to Christ.
As for the theif on the cross, If our baptism is symbolic of us taken part in Jesus' burial, how could the theif have done that if Jesus hadn't even died yet?!
Because baptism is not a prerequisite of salvation, that's how.
_____________________________
Peace,
Muse
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/11/2008 3:02:29 PM
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apostolic862004
Posts: 32
Joined: 8/14/2007
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CheshireMuse,
Do you know the only reason that John was baptizing people before Jesus came? It's because he was looking for Jesus. God told him that he would see the Spirit descending on him like a dove. Read John 1:31-33
quote:
but repentance is not contingent on getting dunked. It is a condition of the heart and mind.
I agree and I am i no way making the assertion that you cannot repent without being baptized.
quote:
I disagree. REPENTANCE is for remission of sins.. not baptism. Reread the passage.
You are not disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with the bible. Mark 1:4 Luke 3:3
quote:
Baptism was an outward symbol of the decision to become a follower of Christ. It was an act that symbolized being born into the Church. It is by our repentance and our surrender to His will that we partake of His death/burial and resurrection.
Once again, I didn't write that, Paul did.
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
quote:
Let me ask you this - can a person be a Christian and not be a member of a church congregation? Baptism was the equivalent of joining a church. It still is to an extent. If a person has just been saved, they can join a congregation by being baptized and making a public profession of faith.
I assume that your point is that you cannot be a Christian and not be a member of a church. I agree.
quote:
Does that mean everyone who has not been baptized is ASHAMED of their faith? Apparently so because they don't want anybody to know.
Of course not! That's ridiculous. My husband has been saved for over 6 years. He has never been baptized. No one would ever mistake him for anything except a Christian. He is most outspoken about his faith to Christ.
Then what you have just told me is that your husband is not a member of a church and by your definition above (I assumed that you were saying you cannot be a christian without belonging to a church. If I am wrong forgive me) your husband is not a christian.
How many people in the book of Acts that became belivers did not get baptized? Now, how many did? Why?
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/11/2008 3:40:54 PM
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CheshireMuse
Posts: 119
Joined: 8/23/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: apostolic862004
CheshireMuse,
Do you know the only reason that John was baptizing people before Jesus came? It's because he was looking for Jesus. God told him that he would see the Spirit descending on him like a dove. Read John 1:31-33
quote:
but repentance is not contingent on getting dunked. It is a condition of the heart and mind.
I agree and I am i no way making the assertion that you cannot repent without being baptized.
quote:
I disagree. REPENTANCE is for remission of sins.. not baptism. Reread the passage.
You are not disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with the bible. Mark 1:4 Luke 3:3
quote:
Baptism was an outward symbol of the decision to become a follower of Christ. It was an act that symbolized being born into the Church. It is by our repentance and our surrender to His will that we partake of His death/burial and resurrection.
Once again, I didn't write that, Paul did.
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
quote:
Let me ask you this - can a person be a Christian and not be a member of a church congregation? Baptism was the equivalent of joining a church. It still is to an extent. If a person has just been saved, they can join a congregation by being baptized and making a public profession of faith.
I assume that your point is that you cannot be a Christian and not be a member of a church. I agree.
quote:
Does that mean everyone who has not been baptized is ASHAMED of their faith? Apparently so because they don't want anybody to know.
Of course not! That's ridiculous. My husband has been saved for over 6 years. He has never been baptized. No one would ever mistake him for anything except a Christian. He is most outspoken about his faith to Christ.
Then what you have just told me is that your husband is not a member of a church and by your definition above (I assumed that you were saying you cannot be a christian without belonging to a church. If I am wrong forgive me) your husband is not a christian.
How many people in the book of Acts that became belivers did not get baptized? Now, how many did? Why?
Not even close. My point is that a person can very well be a Christian without having a formal membership in a particular church.
I am not disagreeing with the Bible in any way. From my perspective, my opinion has Biblical support (to clarify - I do not believe baptism is required to enter heaven.... only repentance, submission and belief in Jesus Christ).
I suppose we must agree to disagree.
_____________________________
Peace,
Muse
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/11/2008 4:33:32 PM
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ChristFollower21
Posts: 85
Joined: 11/18/2008
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I just want everyone to know that I dont believe that we must be baptized to go to heaven, but I do believe we should, its a symbol that we give our all to God, he is our everything. Just thought I should point that out lol!
_____________________________
Romans 3:23 KJV" For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God"
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/11/2008 4:35:55 PM
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ChristFollower21
Posts: 85
Joined: 11/18/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CheshireMuse
quote:
ORIGINAL: apostolic862004
CheshireMuse,
Do you know the only reason that John was baptizing people before Jesus came? It's because he was looking for Jesus. God told him that he would see the Spirit descending on him like a dove. Read John 1:31-33
quote:
but repentance is not contingent on getting dunked. It is a condition of the heart and mind.
I agree and I am i no way making the assertion that you cannot repent without being baptized.
quote:
I disagree. REPENTANCE is for remission of sins.. not baptism. Reread the passage.
You are not disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with the bible. Mark 1:4 Luke 3:3
quote:
Baptism was an outward symbol of the decision to become a follower of Christ. It was an act that symbolized being born into the Church. It is by our repentance and our surrender to His will that we partake of His death/burial and resurrection.
Once again, I didn't write that, Paul did.
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
quote:
Let me ask you this - can a person be a Christian and not be a member of a church congregation? Baptism was the equivalent of joining a church. It still is to an extent. If a person has just been saved, they can join a congregation by being baptized and making a public profession of faith.
I assume that your point is that you cannot be a Christian and not be a member of a church. I agree.
quote:
Does that mean everyone who has not been baptized is ASHAMED of their faith? Apparently so because they don't want anybody to know.
Of course not! That's ridiculous. My husband has been saved for over 6 years. He has never been baptized. No one would ever mistake him for anything except a Christian. He is most outspoken about his faith to Christ.
Then what you have just told me is that your husband is not a member of a church and by your definition above (I assumed that you were saying you cannot be a christian without belonging to a church. If I am wrong forgive me) your husband is not a christian.
How many people in the book of Acts that became belivers did not get baptized? Now, how many did? Why?
Not even close. My point is that a person can very well be a Christian without having a formal membership in a particular church.
I am not disagreeing with the Bible in any way. From my perspective, my opinion has Biblical support (to clarify - I do not believe baptism is required to enter heaven.... only repentance, submission and belief in Jesus Christ).
I suppose we must agree to disagree.
True you dont have to be a memeber of a church to be a christian. I've been going to a church for about a year and have yet to be a member, not sure if I want to, I mean I enjoy but I'm going to pray about it. I do believe that as Christians we should go to church sometimes to hear the Word and to fellowship with other Chrisitians, they will encourage you and uplift you and keep your mind on Christ. We can't do it on our own
_____________________________
Romans 3:23 KJV" For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God"
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/11/2008 4:41:02 PM
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ChristFollower21
Posts: 85
Joined: 11/18/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: apostolic862004
CheshireMuse,
Do you know the only reason that John was baptizing people before Jesus came? It's because he was looking for Jesus. God told him that he would see the Spirit descending on him like a dove. Read John 1:31-33
quote:
but repentance is not contingent on getting dunked. It is a condition of the heart and mind.
I agree and I am i no way making the assertion that you cannot repent without being baptized.
quote:
I disagree. REPENTANCE is for remission of sins.. not baptism. Reread the passage.
You are not disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with the bible. Mark 1:4 Luke 3:3
quote:
Baptism was an outward symbol of the decision to become a follower of Christ. It was an act that symbolized being born into the Church. It is by our repentance and our surrender to His will that we partake of His death/burial and resurrection.
Once again, I didn't write that, Paul did.
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
quote:
Let me ask you this - can a person be a Christian and not be a member of a church congregation? Baptism was the equivalent of joining a church. It still is to an extent. If a person has just been saved, they can join a congregation by being baptized and making a public profession of faith.
I assume that your point is that you cannot be a Christian and not be a member of a church. I agree.
quote:
Does that mean everyone who has not been baptized is ASHAMED of their faith? Apparently so because they don't want anybody to know.
Of course not! That's ridiculous. My husband has been saved for over 6 years. He has never been baptized. No one would ever mistake him for anything except a Christian. He is most outspoken about his faith to Christ.
Then what you have just told me is that your husband is not a member of a church and by your definition above (I assumed that you were saying you cannot be a christian without belonging to a church. If I am wrong forgive me) your husband is not a christian.
How many people in the book of Acts that became belivers did not get baptized? Now, how many did? Why?
May I remind you if your going to tell someone there not a christian than I hope the Holy Spirit led you to say so. Believe me you can hurt some feelings and lead someone away from God. You dont have to be a memeber of a church or be baptized where in the bible does it say you have to be baptized to be a christian or to be saved. My mom has been a christian for so many years and just earlier this year got baptized. Its not a way of salvation, if you want to become a christian you say a prayer, asking the Lord to forgive you of your sins, asking him to be the Lord of your life. Wasnt his death on the cross enough for salvation. God says not to Judge.
_____________________________
Romans 3:23 KJV" For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God"
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/11/2008 5:18:51 PM
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apostolic862004
Posts: 32
Joined: 8/14/2007
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quote:
where in the bible does it say you have to be baptized to be a christian or to be saved.
Mark 16:16
quote:
May I remind you if your going to tell someone there not a christian than I hope the Holy Spirit led you to say so.
I did not say that he was not a christian. I said by what it appeared that she was saying, he was not. She corrected me in that she was not saying you not a christian if you don't go to church.
But consider this:
Heb 10:25
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/11/2008 11:43:18 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1586
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Look. I'll retract my point about you making stuff up. But you are so entrenched in your position that you are following a herd mentality in support of those in the CoC camp, et al. For all intents and purposes you are stating things that are not consistent with the biblical record.
I appreciate your retraction. Whether or not I'm entrenched in my position I couldn't tell you. I don't see me standing up for my position as any different from those who may disagree with me standing up for their positions.
And as for the herd mentality, since I have never been a member of a Church of Christ, am a graduate of an interdenominational Bible college and currently a member of a Southern Baptist Church, I don't understand how I can be following a herd mentality.
And, obviously I believe the things that I am stating are completely consistent with the Biblical record. Certainly more consistent that saying someone is saved by faith alone or by reciting the "sinner's" prayer.
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/11/2008 11:51:26 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1586
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
1) You still didn't answer the point about Jesus' disciples. Their baptism was from John the Baptist also. That is, they were baptized by John. If John's baptism didn't count, you have not explained why Jesus' disciples were not rebaptized.
I don't disagree that Jesus' disciples were baptized by John. But as you said there is no record of whether they were rebaptized or not. Seems to me that means there's just as much evidence for me say that they were rebaptized as there is for you to say that they weren't. Since I don't believe that John's baptism made them members of the church of Christ, I'm inclined to think they probably were rebaptized on the day of Pentecost along with everyone else that day. But there is no way to prove whether they were or whether they weren't.
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/12/2008 12:03:23 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1586
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From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
2) The Ephesian disciples of Acts were not rebaptized because it was John the Baptist's baptism. They were rebaptized because their knowledge of its purpose was incomplete.
I find it interesting that as soon as Paul heard that they didn't know about the Holy Spirit the first thing he asked about was their baptism. Obviously he meant baptism in water because that's how those he was questioning understood it and he didn't correct them. So there has to be some connection between baptism in water and receiving the Holy Spirit, it seems to me. And the Holy Spirit was not conferred by John's baptism. Therefore baptism in the name of Jesus Christ was required. So apparently John's baptism didn't count -- as far as receiving the Holy Spirit, anyway.
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/12/2008 12:05:39 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1586
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
So let's dispense with the absurd notion that John's baptism didn't count. A significant number of the early church probably had John's baptism but no other subsequent baptism that we are told about.
Precisely -- that we are told about.
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/12/2008 12:08:51 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1586
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
You may object to the use of the term. But like it or not, the position you espouse is called baptismal regeneration.
I would disagree. I would say that the position you think I espouse is called baptismal regeneration.
I do not now, nor have a ever, believed in baptismal regeneration.
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/12/2008 12:12:23 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1586
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From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CheshireMuse
I disagree. John had been baptizing people before Jesus really began His ministry. He even baptized Jesus. Jesus' disciples were baptizing people as well - before His death. If Christian baptism wasn't instituted until after Christ died, why were they doing it well before He died?
Certainly John baptized and Jesus' disciples baptized but it couldn't have been Christian baptism because Christian baptism symbolizes the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, which hadn't occured yet.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/12/2008 12:17:19 AM
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Diolectic
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There was a certain man, called Simon, who previously in the same city used sorcery, and amazed the people of Samaria, giving out that he was some great one: He believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/12/2008 12:18:16 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1586
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChesireMuse
Yes, the verse in Corinthians (contextually speaking) is referring to division in the church there. However, the fact that Paul stated he was "glad" he didn't baptize anyone other than the few mentioned strikes me as odd, if the act is a necessary part of salvation.
I shouldn't strike you as odd. The Corinthians were dividing the church over who they were baptized by. Paul was glad that he wasn't the cause of any of the kind of division in the church. It says nothing at all about the necessity or lack of necessity for baptism.
quote:
I have nothing against baptism. I've been baptized. However, I do not believe that baptism is a requirement to enter God's Kingdom.
And yet Jesus said, "Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." The only experience in the Christian life that I know of that involves both water and the Spirit is Christian baptism.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/12/2008 12:27:27 AM
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greatdivide46
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Apostolic862004 has a point. There is no such thing as an unbaptized Christian under the New Covenent.
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/12/2008 7:50:55 AM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
So let's dispense with the absurd notion that John's baptism didn't count. A significant number of the early church probably had John's baptism but no other subsequent baptism that we are told about.
Precisely -- that we are told about.
So you are asserting that the subjects of John's baptism were all rebaptized? Exactly how does that work? Isn't that arguing from silence?
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Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/12/2008 7:55:20 AM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
1) You still didn't answer the point about Jesus' disciples. Their baptism was from John the Baptist also. That is, they were baptized by John. If John's baptism didn't count, you have not explained why Jesus' disciples were not rebaptized.
I don't disagree that Jesus' disciples were baptized by John. But as you said there is no record of whether they were rebaptized or not. Seems to me that means there's just as much evidence for me say that they were rebaptized as there is for you to say that they weren't. Since I don't believe that John's baptism made them members of the church of Christ, I'm inclined to think they probably were rebaptized on the day of Pentecost along with everyone else that day. But there is no way to prove whether they were or whether they weren't.
Uh, no. This is an example of where you make things up. Get real. This is an example of where you start twisting scriptures in order to account for the inconsistencies of your position.
We are never told John's baptism was insufficient, nor implied, nor suggested. Therefore, there is no need to assert that it was. The entire burden of proof is on you.
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Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/12/2008 7:58:07 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1586
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From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
So you are asserting that the subjects of John's baptism were all rebaptized? Exactly how does that work? Isn't that arguing from silence?
Yes, it's arguing from silence. Isn't saying they weren't rebaptized also arguing from silence?
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/12/2008 8:05:00 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
I appreciate your retraction. Whether or not I'm entrenched in my position I couldn't tell you. I don't see me standing up for my position as any different from those who may disagree with me standing up for their positions.
I am not in support of everyone who is closer to my position than you are. It is quite true that some have a basically biblical position but for all the wrong reasons.
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And as for the herd mentality, since I have never been a member of a Church of Christ, am a graduate of an interdenominational Bible college and currently a member of a Southern Baptist Church, I don't understand how I can be following a herd mentality.
I didn't say you were ever a member of the CoC. But some of your answers reflect theirs. You got it somewhere. Generally, people adopt positions they haven't fully thought out simply because someone else espoused. Generally, the only other people who object to the Thief on the Cross's lack of baptism are the Church of Christ. My own position is more consistent with those of Baptists, the church environment that I grew up in. But I depart in a number of ways where I believe scripture doesn't support them.
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And, obviously I believe the things that I am stating are completely consistent with the Biblical record. Certainly more consistent that saying someone is saved by faith alone or by reciting the "sinner's" prayer.
Romans chapter 4---faith apart from works (how is that different from faith alone?)
Ephesians 2:8-9---by grace through faith, apart from works.
John 3:16--whoever believes in Christ will have eternal life.
John 5:24---whoever believes will not be condemned.
Romans 5:1---Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/12/2008 8:06:13 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1586
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Uh, no. This is an example of where you make things up. Get real. This is an example of where you start twisting scriptures in order to account for the inconsistencies of your position. Not making things up. Just postulating possibilities.
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We are never told John's baptism was insufficient, nor implied, nor suggested. Therefore, there is no need to assert that it was. The entire burden of proof is on you.
If you hadn't asked me I never would have asserted that John's baptism was insufficient. But I have proved to my own satisfaction that while John's baptism was a baptism of repentenace for the forgiveness of sins, it was not the same baptism that Peter was commanding the people to do in Acts 2, the result of which was not only repentance and the forgiveness of sins, but also the reception of the Holy Spirit.
If John's baptism was sufficient then why do we differentiate it from Christian baptism by referring to it as John's baptism? And I still don't understand why you think the Ephesians disciples who knew only John's baptism had to be rebaptized if John's baptism was sufficient.
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 12/12/2008 8:37:20 AM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
You may object to the use of the term. But like it or not, the position you espouse is called baptismal regeneration.
I would disagree. I would say that the position you think I espouse is called baptismal regeneration.
Gee. And if everyone else thinks it too, you are the one who is attempting to deny common theological terms.
The only requirement for the adherence to baptismal regeneration is that baptism is necessary for salvation. It is not necessary that one adheres to the belief that faith is also a requirement. I am not the only one who understands this meaning of the term. It is the generally accepted term for that doctrine.
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I do not now, nor have a ever, believed in baptismal regeneration.
Please read the quotes below. There were a number of other articles that came up when I googled them. Time and space limit what I can post here. But you can see that if you believe baptism is necessary for salvation, then you believe in baptismal regeneration. It is like someone believing that the 6 cylinder, four wheeled Ford vehicle he drives is not an automobile. He may object to the use of the term, but language is language. We are in denial if we insist on attaching our own unique meanings to objects and concepts.
Please read:
"Unfortunately, various innovations and heresies were gradually introduced regarding baptism: that one must be baptized to be saved....These heresies became known as the doctrine of baptismal regeneration. Most Protestants holding these beliefs today are not aware that they originated with the Roman Catholic Church in the Middle Ages.--Dave Hunt
"Before we move to the most commonly used verses to support the teaching of baptismal regeneration (or the concept that baptism is imperative for one's salvation), let's take a close look at HOW....
http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/baptism.htm
"A Brief Rebuttal of Baptismal Regeneration
by James White
...In either case, the work of Jesus Christ on the cross cannot be said to be finished and efficacious until man does something--in this case, adds his work of baptism to the work of God in Christ. Baptism is said to be the means of salvation, the method by which Christ's work at Calvary is taken from the merely theoretical to the actual.
"It is not our intention to engage in a lengthy discussion of the topic of baptismal regeneration in this article. Such would require far more space than we have available at this time! Instead, we wish to point out a basic, foundational error of the position taken by such groups as the Church of Christ and the Mormon Church--both have some doctrine of baptismal regeneration. Then, we will briefly respond to a couple of the more often used proof-texts provided by proponents of baptismal regeneration. We realize that there is a whole area of discussion that we are leaving to the side by taking this approach, that being the sacramental concept of regeneration in infant baptism. This view is found in Roman Catholicism (indeed, baptism is the original means of justification in Roman theology) and in various of the sacramentally-oriented Protestant churches.
http://vintage.aomin.org/bapreg.html
"Question: "Is baptism necessary for salvation? What is baptismal regeneration?"
Answer: Baptismal regeneration is the belief that a person must be baptized in order to be saved...." http://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-salvation.html
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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