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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order to go to heaven?
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[Poll]
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Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order to go to heaven?
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| Yes |
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| No |
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| Maybe/Not Sure |
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Total Votes : 145
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(last vote on : 11/23/2009 1:58:36 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/29/2009 9:55:22 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 509
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Baptism is NOT a requirement for salvation – it is WORK OF OBEDIENCE:
Can you be saved but not have the Holy Spirit?
Can you be saved but not have your sins forgiven?
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God does not need the work of baptism to save souls – baptism is for man’s benefit, not God’s.
Who said God needs baptism? God ordained it for us so that we can appropriate His grace.
quote:
Salvation does not hinge on works. You can stand me up at the gates of hell (no doubt that is the intention of the reply posted), and I won’t back down :-)
No one is claiming salvation hinges on works....we are talking about baptism not works. And by the way great song! My wife's band does that one!
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/29/2009 11:23:40 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1585
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Yet, I contend that whatever Jesus intended to convey about the conditions for salvation, salvation was a then present possession of whoever fulfilled the conditions.
I disagree that the condition of being born of water and the Spirit was then a present condition for salvation. No one prior to the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2 was born of the Spirit. Sure the Spirit came upon individuals in the Old Testament but not permanently and not everyone. Therefore, being born of water and the Spirit is a yet future occurrence from when Jesus spoke the words.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/29/2009 11:31:10 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1585
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
The question is Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order to go to heaven?, and the answer is no. What's written in the Bible concerning baptism says the answer is yes.
quote:
I was baptized in a lake in Minnesota when I was 8 years old – I understood totally what was happening and why – obviously it was not an 11th hour situation, and I was not looking at the face of God as my life was leaving my body. However, HAD IT BEEN AND THERE WAS NO TIME TO RUSH ME TO THE LAKE TO BE DIPPED, my soul would have been just as saved as it is now. We'll never know will we, since God kept you safe and healthy until you could be baptized.
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Baptism is NOT a requirement for salvation – it is WORK OF OBEDIENCE: God does not need the work of baptism to save souls – baptism is for man’s benefit, not God’s. Salvation does not hinge on works. You can stand me up at the gates of hell (no doubt that is the intention of the reply posted), and I won’t back down :-) Certainly God does not need baptism to save souls. But He does desire people to be baptized in order to work His work of salvation in their lives. You are right that salvation does not hinge on works but of course baptism is not a work unless you also think faith, repentance, and confession are works.
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God’s Word is truth, it stands on it’s own; God is not a man that He should lie … I follow Yeshua, I obey God, I back up what I say to other’s with the Word of God; if that does not sit well with them, they need to find out why. I am secure in what I know because it is what God has revealed to me. Period. Amen!! Couldn't have said it better myself.
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/29/2009 11:45:22 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 509
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Yet, I contend that whatever Jesus intended to convey about the conditions for salvation, salvation was a then present possession of whoever fulfilled the conditions.
I disagree that the condition of being born of water and the Spirit was then a present condition for salvation. No one prior to the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2 was born of the Spirit. Sure the Spirit came upon individuals in the Old Testament but not permanently and not everyone. Therefore, being born of water and the Spirit is a yet future occurrence from when Jesus spoke the words.
Plus being born of water and Spirit and rebirth were all OT themes.....Nicodemus being a Pharisee should have known this!
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/30/2009 6:40:41 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Yet, I contend that whatever Jesus intended to convey about the conditions for salvation, salvation was a then present possession of whoever fulfilled the conditions.
I disagree that the condition of being born of water and the Spirit was then a present condition for salvation. No one prior to the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2 was born of the Spirit. Sure the Spirit came upon individuals in the Old Testament but not permanently and not everyone. Therefore, being born of water and the Spirit is a yet future occurrence from when Jesus spoke the words.
Well, first, I think you are confusing "born of the Spirit" and "receiving the Spirit." If not, then you guys need to take John 3:5 out of your arsenal. When asked for salvation verses, it is included along with 1 Peter 3:21 and other verses.
quote:
jjbird said:
Plus being born of water and Spirit and rebirth were all OT themes.....Nicodemus being a Pharisee should have known this!
GD,
If you guys would get together on your hermeneutic, it would be helpful.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/30/2009 7:51:04 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1585
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Well, first, I think you are confusing "born of the Spirit" and "receiving the Spirit." If not, then you guys need to take John 3:5 out of your arsenal. When asked for salvation verses, it is included along with 1 Peter 3:21 and other verses.
You're right. Being born of the Spirit and receiving the Spirit are not the same thing. Thanks for point that out. Which one do you think results in salvation -- receiving the Spirit or being born of the Spirit?
quote:
GD,
If you guys would get together on your hermeneutic, it would be helpful. I guess I'm the one at fault here. I'm not aware of "born of water and Spirit and rebirth" being Old Testament themes.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/30/2009 5:00:09 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
quote:
Well, first, I think you are confusing "born of the Spirit" and "receiving the Spirit." If not, then you guys need to take John 3:5 out of your arsenal. When asked for salvation verses, it is included along with 1 Peter 3:21 and other verses.
You're right. Being born of the Spirit and receiving the Spirit are not the same thing. Thanks for point[ing] that out. Which one do you think results in salvation -- receiving the Spirit or being born of the Spirit?
I would say that being "born of the Spirit" is salvation. That's the subject matter of Jesus' dialogue with Nicodemus. Jesus speaks of "eternal life" by faith. The coming of the HS happened at Pentecost. If receiving the Spirit is required for salvation then the apostles/disciples weren't Christians until Pentecost.
I look at Acts as transitional. There is no way that I have found that makes the whole thing consistent--except that Jesus' apostles were present in each of the situations. Many theologians believe that everything happened in stages because that insured the cohesion of the early Christian church.
I'm inclined toward that view but it is hard to prove definitively. Most of the evidence is circumstantial. But it's pretty much the only consistent part. It seems that God used the apostles to explain what was happening.
quote:
quote:
GD,
If you guys would get together on your hermeneutic, it would be helpful.
I guess I'm the one at fault here. I'm not aware of "born of water and Spirit and rebirth" being Old Testament themes.
Insofar as the spiritual birth and coming of the HS, I am pretty much in agreement with that.
Peter's sermon points out that God's pouring out of the HS at Pentecost was the fulfillment of a prophecy of Joel. Which brings me to another point about Acts 2: It was about the coming of the HS and not about salvation per se.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/30/2009 10:15:47 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1585
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
If receiving the Spirit is required for salvation then the apostles/disciples weren't Christians until Pentecost. So were they Christians before they received the Holy Spirit? It's hard for me to imagine a person who has not received the Holy Spirit and yet is considered a Christian.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/31/2009 12:23:25 AM
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jjbird
Posts: 509
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
jjbird said:
Plus being born of water and Spirit and rebirth were all OT themes.....Nicodemus being a Pharisee should have known this!
GD,
If you guys would get together on your hermeneutic, it would be helpful.
That is easy to say....please back it up with some proof. Do you disagree that rebirth was an OT theme?
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/31/2009 8:19:53 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbirdquote:
GD,
If you guys would get together on your hermeneutic, it would be helpful.
That is easy to say....please back it up with some proof. Do you disagree that rebirth was an OT theme?
jjbird,
YOu are only half reading some of these exchanges. Let me brief you on the exchanges.
Greatdivide said in #1002: "I disagree that the condition of being born of water and the Spirit was then a present condition for salvation. No one prior to the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2 was born of the Spirit. Sure the Spirit came upon individuals in the Old Testament but not permanently and not everyone. Therefore, being born of water and the Spirit is a yet future occurrence from when Jesus spoke the words."
Jjbird said in post #1004:"Plus being born of water and Spirit and rebirth were all OT themes.....Nicodemus being a Pharisee should have known this!"
GrahamCracker in post #1005: GD,
If you guys would get together on your hermeneutic, it would be helpful.
Greatdivide said in post 1006:"I guess I'm the one at fault here. I'm not aware of "born of water and Spirit and rebirth" being Old Testament themes."
GrahamCacker said in post #1007: "Insofar as the spiritual birth and coming of the HS, I am pretty much in agreement with that.
Peter's sermon points out that God's pouring out of the HS at Pentecost was the fulfillment of a prophecy of Joel."
quote:
That is easy to say....please back it up with some proof. Do you disagree that rebirth was an OT theme?
Jbird,
What the heck are you talking about? In view of the exchange noted above, I actually agreed with you about the coming of the HS and spiritual rebirth being predicted in the OT. Greatdivide was slow coming to terms with some of this information but at least he is honest enough to actually read these posts before disagreeing with me.
Furthermore, you are challenging me on things that have little or nothing to do with what I have actually said. So, in answer to you question, "no."
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/31/2009 8:38:19 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
If receiving the Spirit is required for salvation then the apostles/disciples weren't Christians until Pentecost. So were they Christians before they received the Holy Spirit? It's hard for me to imagine a person who has not received the Holy Spirit and yet is considered a Christian.
Look. I admit that there is a lot about the events of Acts that I don't understand. Too much of it is inconsistent from our point of view without some clarification that I cannot find in the NT. I am careful not to interpret the events as universal doctrine. But, I do rely on Peter's interpretation of the events of Acts 10-11 (Cornelius). God accepted Cornelius through faith and gave him the HS. It is one reason that I don't think Acts 2:38 is intended to be a universal soteriology for the church.
1) If no one could be saved without first receiving the HS in Acts, then the apostles and Samaritans weren't saved. I find that difficult to accept.
2) The coming of the HS to the people of God was predicted in the OT. At the very least, Peter explains that Act 2:17-21. There, Peter quotes Joel 2:38-32, according to the center margin notes of the Bible I am looking at right now.
3) Ezekiel has a lot to say about the HS. One of my Bibles suggests that Jesus' words on the rebirth come from Ezekiel. I cannot confirm that independently because I am not intimately familiar with Ezekiel. My SS teacher is giving lessons out of Ezekiel right now. Maybe that will get me into Ezekiel.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/31/2009 9:53:56 AM
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jjbird
Posts: 509
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbirdquote:
GD,
If you guys would get together on your hermeneutic, it would be helpful.
That is easy to say....please back it up with some proof. Do you disagree that rebirth was an OT theme?
jjbird,
YOu are only half reading some of these exchanges. Let me brief you on the exchanges.
Greatdivide said in #1002: "I disagree that the condition of being born of water and the Spirit was then a present condition for salvation. No one prior to the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2 was born of the Spirit. Sure the Spirit came upon individuals in the Old Testament but not permanently and not everyone. Therefore, being born of water and the Spirit is a yet future occurrence from when Jesus spoke the words."
Jjbird said in post #1004:"Plus being born of water and Spirit and rebirth were all OT themes.....Nicodemus being a Pharisee should have known this!"
GrahamCracker in post #1005: GD,
If you guys would get together on your hermeneutic, it would be helpful.
Greatdivide said in post 1006:"I guess I'm the one at fault here. I'm not aware of "born of water and Spirit and rebirth" being Old Testament themes."
GrahamCacker said in post #1007: "Insofar as the spiritual birth and coming of the HS, I am pretty much in agreement with that.
Peter's sermon points out that God's pouring out of the HS at Pentecost was the fulfillment of a prophecy of Joel."
quote:
That is easy to say....please back it up with some proof. Do you disagree that rebirth was an OT theme?
Jbird,
What the heck are you talking about? In view of the exchange noted above, I actually agreed with you about the coming of the HS and spiritual rebirth being predicted in the OT. Greatdivide was slow coming to terms with some of this information but at least he is honest enough to actually read these posts before disagreeing with me.
Furthermore, you are challenging me on things that have little or nothing to do with what I have actually said. So, in answer to you question, "no."
Hey man I want to apologize........several of my last few responses I have made in airports in Asia and I have been severely sleep deprived from the tour. I have been really jetlagged! Forgive me
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/31/2009 10:18:32 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1585
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Look. I admit that there is a lot about the events of Acts that I don't understand. Too much of it is inconsistent from our point of view without some clarification that I cannot find in the NT. I am careful not to interpret the events as universal doctrine. But, I do rely on Peter's interpretation of the events of Acts 10-11 (Cornelius). God accepted Cornelius through faith and gave him the HS. It is one reason that I don't think Acts 2:38 is intended to be a universal soteriology for the church.
I don't know what is inconsistent in the book of Acts. Of course, if one comes to the book of Acts with the preconceived notion that baptism has nothing to do with salvation and can understand how one would see some inconsistency. Personally, I don't see any inconsistency in the book of Acts.
Secondly, I don't how one can determine what to interpret universally and what to interpret as applying only to those who actually heard it. It seems to me that if it's not meant to be interpreted universally God would have left it out of His Word. Although, I suppose that there are ways that one can tell if something is to be interpreted universally or not. I just don't know what those ways are.
I, too, agree with Peter's interpretation of the events in Acts 10-11. However, I don't see how that tells anyone that baptism has nothing to do with salvation. The fact that God accepted Cornelius through faith and gave him the gift of tongues through the Holy Spirit does not mean that he didn't have to be baptized. In fact that was the first thing the Peter commanded when he saw the gift of tongues being manifested in the Gentiles. That convinced Peter that the Gentiles were to be recipients of the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit received at baptism, too, just like those on the Day of Pentecost.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/31/2009 6:18:52 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
I don't know what is inconsistent in the book of Acts. Of course, if one comes to the book of Acts with the preconceived notion that baptism has nothing to do with salvation and can understand how one would see some inconsistency. Personally, I don't see any inconsistency in the book of Acts.
The words having "nothing to do with salvation" covers a lot of territory. I really dislike that phrasing. It is too vague. There are two views currently under debate here:
*The belief that baptism is to be only given to people who are already in the kingdom of God through faith but are commanded to be baptized for various reasons.
*The belief that baptism is a normal precondition for salvation.
Any person being asked if baptism has "anything to do with salvation" would answer yes, truthfully, and in good conscience but with different views.
Here's one inconsistency: Cornelius received the HS before baptism and the Samaritans had to wait to receive the HS. What's more, some people would argue that Acts 2:38 made baptism a condition for receiving the HS. And the Samaritans had to wait to receive the HS, apparently several days. So, you get two or three groups arguing for their veiw based upon the events. If you are trying to make the events universal, you've got problems.
As I see it, those are not mere anomalies. Calling them anomalies seems like a cop out to me. We either have to accept that some of the events are not intended to be universal for all time or that God is being hopelessly illogical there.
quote:
Secondly, I don't how one can determine what to interpret universally and what to interpret as applying only to those who actually heard it. It seems to me that if it's not meant to be interpreted universally God would have left it out of His Word. Although, I suppose that there are ways that one can tell if something is to be interpreted universally or not. I just don't know what those ways are.
There is some universal application but that is not to say that all of it is universal. It's another reason why I have a strict direct hermenuetic. It keeps me from having to explain all of the inconsistencies that people argue over. That's not to say I have none of my own. We see those details when we look for them and we realize that there are limitations to what we have been taught. While I was brought up Baptist, I have several disagreements with typical Baptist interpretations on a lot of things. I try to avoid sticking my neck out on things where Baptists tend to do so without thinking.
That said, I don't pick too many debates with the Baptists on some of the threads. I actually agree on most things with them, but I strongly disagree with how they arrived those conclusions. A lot of them are simply repeating some interpretation that they heard their preacher say. I cannot debate everyone and I don't even try. Some things are as equally hard to disprove as they are to prove.
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I, too, agree with Peter's interpretation of the events in Acts 10-11. However, I don't see how that tells anyone that baptism has nothing to do with salvation. The fact that God accepted Cornelius through faith and gave him the gift of tongues through the Holy Spirit does not mean that he didn't have to be baptized. In fact that was the first thing the Peter commanded when he saw the gift of tongues being manifested in the Gentiles. That convinced Peter that the Gentiles were to be recipients of the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit received at baptism, too, just like those on the Day of Pentecost.
How many times do I have to repeat myself that I do think that Cornelius had to be baptized? Reading your paragraph without the context of any previous comments of mine, one would think you had heard me say that Cornelius wasn't supposed to be baptized.
I repeatedly try to sneak in things like "as a precondition for salvation" or "in order to be saved." I say things like that.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/31/2009 6:19:54 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
Hey man I want to apologize........several of my last few responses I have made in airports in Asia and I have been severely sleep deprived from the tour. I have been really jetlagged! Forgive me
Not a problem. I've done the same thing myself and I didn't even have jet lag to blame it on.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/31/2009 9:35:06 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1585
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Here's one inconsistency: Cornelius received the HS before baptism and the Samaritans had to wait to receive the HS. What's more, some people would argue that Acts 2:38 made baptism a condition for receiving the HS. And the Samaritans had to wait to receive the HS, apparently several days. So, you get two or three groups arguing for their veiw based upon the events. If you are trying to make the events universal, you've got problems.
You may have a point. However, I can see a different way of explaining what actually happened in both cases. If Acts 2:38 is true and the gift of the Holy Spirit is not given until baptism, then what Cornelius received prior to his baptism was not the gift of the Holy Spirit, but a gift of the Holy Spirit, viz., speaking in tongues. I believe the same thing can said of the Samaritans because whatever they received occurred at the laying on of the apostles hands. And I don't believe that the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit is ever imparted by the laying on of anyone's hands.
quote:
As I see it, those are not mere anomalies. Calling them anomalies seems like a cop out to me. We either have to accept that some of the events are not intended to be universal for all time or that God is being hopelessly illogical there. Maybe they're not anomalies, if viewed as I have outlined above. I might add that saying that Acts 2:38 and Matthew 28:19-20 are not applicable universally seems like a cop out to me. Not that you've said that, but some people I've talked with have said that.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/31/2009 9:59:26 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
You may have a point. However, I can see a different way of explaining what actually happened in both cases. If Acts 2:38 is true and the gift of the Holy Spirit is not given until baptism, then what Cornelius received prior to his baptism was not the gift of the Holy Spirit, but a gift of the Holy Spirit, viz., speaking in tongues. I believe the same thing can said of the Samaritans because whatever they received occurred at the laying on of the apostles hands.
We've gone over this before so I don't know why you've forgotten. Wherever did you get this "a gift" versus "the gift"? Nothing in the text justifies such a distinction. On the contrary, it was the same thing (the gift) that the apostles received in Pentecost. Peter even says so.
"Can anyone forbid water, that these...who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" (Acts 10:47)
"Then I remembered the word of the Lord...you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit
If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus..." (verses 16, 17)
When you start digging eisegetical interpretations, the text comes back to bite you.
quote:
Maybe they're not anomalies, if viewed as I have outlined above. I might add that saying that Acts 2:38 and Matthew 28:19-20 are not applicable universally seems like a cop out to me. Not that you've said that, but some people I've talked with have said that.
No, they're not anomalies but you are reading what is not in the text. How you get baptismal salvation out of Matthew 28:19-20 is completely beyond me. Completely. A command to baptize does not make it a precondition.
Regarding Acts 2:38, I'd be happy to go over it again.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 11/1/2009 8:09:55 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1585
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
We've gone over this before so I don't know why you've forgotten. Wherever did you get this "a gift" versus "the gift"? Nothing in the text justifies such a distinction. On the contrary, it was the same thing (the gift) that the apostles received in Pentecost. Peter even says so.
"Can anyone forbid water, that these...who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" (Acts 10:47)
"Then I remembered the word of the Lord...you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit
If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus..." (verses 16, 17)
I'm trying to see how what occurred in Acts 10 does not contradict what occurred in Acts 2 without redefining terms or interpreting it as not being universally applicable. And I think the verses you've quoted help me in my thinking. The Gentiles in Acts 10 "received the Holy Spirit just as we have." How was that and how did Peter know? Because they were speaking in tongues. That's what they received of the Holy Spirit just like the apostles did in Acts 2. Indeed, "God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus..." That would be the gift of tongues. According to Peter in Acts 2 the gift of the Holy Spirit as an indwelling presence didn't occur until people were baptized.
I can see, though, that someone might think that the gift of the Holy Spirit mentioned in Acts 2 is not the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, but if that's true then everyone should speak in tongues when they're saved, unless the verse is applicable to only those who heard it.
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How you get baptismal salvation out of Matthew 28:19-20 is completely beyond me. Completely. A command to baptize does not make it a precondition. I don't understand how a command to baptize does not make it a precondition. Jesus plainly said, 'Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you." Seems pretty clear that in order to make disciples you baptize them and then you teach them. Unless, I suppose, you think making a disciple does not include salvation.
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 11/1/2009 9:07:17 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
I'm trying to see how what occurred in Acts 10 does not contradict what occurred in Acts 2 without redefining terms or interpreting it as not being universally applicable. And I think the verses you've quoted help me in my thinking. The Gentiles in Acts 10 "received the Holy Spirit just as we have." How was that and how did Peter know? Because they were speaking in tongues. That's what they received of the Holy Spirit just like the apostles did in Acts 2. Indeed, "God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus..." That would be the gift of tongues. According to Peter in Acts 2 the gift of the Holy Spirit as an indwelling presence didn't occur until people were baptized.
I can see, though, that someone might think that the gift of the Holy Spirit mentioned in Acts 2 is not the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, but if that's true then everyone should speak in tongues when they're saved, unless the verse is applicable to only those who heard it.
Look at 11, verse 15: "The Holy Spirit fell on them, as upon us at the beginning." How is that anything but the HS Himself? It does not say, "The gift of tongues..." or "A gift of the HS..." Peter's context is the whole shebang, the whole enchilada. And the teaching about spiritual gifts as opposed to the whole HS had not arisen by this time.
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I don't understand how a command to baptize does not make it a precondition. Jesus plainly said, 'Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you." Seems pretty clear that in order to make disciples you baptize them and then you teach them. Unless, I suppose, you think making a disciple does not include salvation.
How does "Love your neighbor" make it a condition for salvation? There are a thousand other things that Jesus commanded that don't make it precondition for salvation. There are conditions for Christian obedience and there are conditions for salvation. Simply put: If it says it is, it is. If it doesn't say it is, most likely it isn't. That clears away an awful lot of interpretive muck.
It seems to me that you and jjbird are tripping over some obvious things in order to make room for the nonexistent. For example, I pointed out that I can present some pretty straightforward texts: "Whoever believes have eternal life" but jjbird doesn't believe that is enough. But you insist on inserting things into texts because of pretext. I don't know how you can hang onto such pretexts in view of such obvious clearly presented scriptures.
What Matt 28:18-19 gives is a command to the apostles to do what they were called to do. Let me repeat: It is a command to the apostles.
With regard to whether or not becoming an disciple includes salvation, what about Judas Iscariot? Was he ever saved? What about Simon Magnus? (My own view is somewhat different from the majority. My only point is that a lot of people think he wasn't saved.)
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 11/1/2009 9:28:16 AM >
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Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 11/1/2009 2:25:23 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1585
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From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Look at 11, verse 15: "The Holy Spirit fell on them, as upon us at the beginning." How is that anything but the HS Himself? It does not say, "The gift of tongues..." or "A gift of the HS..." Peter's context is the whole shebang, the whole enchilada. And the teaching about spiritual gifts as opposed to the whole HS had not arisen by this time.
Exactly what I was saying. "The Holy Spirit fell on them, as upon us at the beginning." How did the Holy Spirit fall on the apostles in the beginning? By granting them the gift of speaking in tongues. And if that's all that's required for salvation, then why did Peter tell the people in Acts 2 in response to their question of what they should do, that among other things, they should be baptized and they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. If they all had to speak in tongues to show that they had the gift of the Holy Spirit, why tell them they needed to do something different in order to receive it? Same thing with Cornelius and his household. If they were saved by speaking in tongues, why the urgency to get them baptized in water unless it has something to do with salvation?
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 11/1/2009 2:34:56 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1585
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
How does "Love your neighbor" make it a condition for salvation? There are a thousand other things that Jesus commanded that don't make it precondition for salvation.
Yes there are, but, as far as I know, none of them are directly connected with a command to make disciples nor do any of them precede a command to teach people obedience to everything Jesus said.
quote:
It seems to me that you and jjbird are tripping over some obvious things in order to make room for the nonexistent. For example, I pointed out that I can present some pretty straightforward texts: "Whoever believes have eternal life" but jjbird doesn't believe that is enough. But you insist on inserting things into texts because of pretext. I don't know how you can hang onto such pretexts in view of such obvious clearly presented scriptures. Nothing that I believe is nonexistent. Sure the Bible says that "Whoever believes has eternal life" and that is absolutely true. However, that is not the only Scripture in the Bible that deals with salvation. For example, Romans 10:9 indicates that believe is not enough, one must also confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord in order to be saved. And there are other passages that deal with what God requires for salvation. Therefore, as I've said before I'm just trying to harmonize scripture without redefining terms or reinterpreting passages as being not universally applicable.
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 11/1/2009 2:38:21 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1585
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From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
With regard to whether or not becoming an disciple includes salvation, what about Judas Iscariot? Was he ever saved? What about Simon Magnus? (My own view is somewhat different from the majority. My only point is that a lot of people think he wasn't saved.) That's an interesting question about Judas. Whether or not Judas was saved, did he perform miracles? Was he able to to do everything that the other apostles did? As far as Simon Magus, I do believe that he was saved. As some here are wont to say, I see nothing in the text that says he was not.
< Message edited by greatdivide46 -- 11/1/2009 2:45:59 PM >
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 11/1/2009 3:49:13 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Exactly what I was saying. "The Holy Spirit fell on them, as upon us at the beginning." How did the Holy Spirit fall on the apostles in the beginning? By granting them the gift of speaking in tongues. And if that's all that's required for salvation, then why did Peter tell the people in Acts 2 in response to their question of what they should do, that among other things, they should be baptized and they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. If they all had to speak in tongues to show that they had the gift of the Holy Spirit, why tell them they needed to do something different in order to receive it? Same thing with Cornelius and his household. If they were saved by speaking in tongues, why the urgency to get them baptized in water unless it has something to do with salvation?
Isn't it interesting that Peter never says, "Repent and be baptized and you will be saved"?
He could have been saying, "Repent and you will be saved. Repent and be baptized and then you will receive the HS." The whole context was about the HS.
It is also quite possible that those conditions were meant to be applied to first century Jews who were guilty of the criminal bloodguilt of Jesus' crucifixion. In both chapter 2 and 3, Peter indicts his audience(s) of the criminal act of Jesus' death. The call to repentance is yet another invitation extending from John the Baptist's sermons prior to Jesus' introduction to Israel. See 3:22-25. I believe the blood guiltiness of the first century Jews is key to the wording of verse 38. In chapter 3, baptism isn't mentioned. A lot of energy has been expended discussion the meaning of "eis." Prepositions are notoriously flexible and occasionally vague. Its meaning is so flexible that there are other examples in scripture for everyone's view
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quote:
How does "Love your neighbor" make it a condition for salvation? There are a thousand other things that Jesus commanded that don't make it precondition for salvation.
Yes there are, but, as far as I know, none of them are directly connected with a command to make disciples nor do any of them precede a command to teach people obedience to everything Jesus said.
How about Luke 14:25-33, where discipleship is conditioned upon relinquishing everthing a person owns?
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
With regard to whether or not becoming an disciple includes salvation, what about Judas Iscariot? Was he ever saved? What about Simon Magnus? (My own view is somewhat different from the majority. My only point is that a lot of people think he wasn't saved.) That's an interesting question about Judas. Whether or not Judas was saved, did he perform miracles? Was he able to to do everything that the other apostles did? As far as Simon Magus, I do believe that he was saved. As some here are wont to say, I see nothing in the text that says he was not.
Insofar as Simon Magnus, I believe he was saved. There is extrabiblical legend indicating that he went on to resist the work of Christ. I don't know that I believe it.
Regarding Judas Iscariot, I believe he performed miracles. If he did not, wouldn't the other disciples have noticed?
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For example, Romans 10:9 indicates that believe is not enough, one must also confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord in order to be saved.
Does it really? No, it does not. That is simply an interpretation. Taken literally, all it says is that the one who believes and confesses is saved. It does not say, without confession there is no salvation.
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Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 11/1/2009 11:02:30 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1585
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
For example, Romans 10:9 indicates that believe is not enough, one must also confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord in order to be saved.
Does it really? No, it does not. That is simply an interpretation. Taken literally, all it says is that the one who believes and confesses is saved. It does not say, without confession there is no salvation.
So does it say that one who believes and refuses to confess is saved?
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 11/2/2009 2:03:06 AM
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jjbird
Posts: 509
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
How you get baptismal salvation out of Matthew 28:19-20 is completely beyond me. Completely. A command to baptize does not make it a precondition.
Because Jesus said believe and be baptized and you will be saved.
Baptism is faith's response that appropriates God's grace.
Baptism is when we are made alive. Colossians 2:11-12
Baptism is when our sins are forgiven! Acts 2:38
Baptism is when we are born again. John 3:5
Baptism even before the Catholic church started was always associated with Salvation because that is when our sins are washed away.
No one can be saved unless their sins are forgiven.
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