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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order to go to heaven?
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[Poll]
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Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order to go to heaven?
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| Yes |
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| No |
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| Maybe/Not Sure |
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Total Votes : 145
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(last vote on : 11/23/2009 1:58:36 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 11/17/2009 7:18:39 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Isn't it interesting that as soon as Paul found out that they had not received the Spirit the first thing he asked them was about their baptism. Paul assumes a link between baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit. It's as if baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit are the same thing.
Assumption. Maybe it means something else.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 11/17/2009 10:27:40 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 508
Joined: 5/20/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
Regarding the question of baptism of being "for the forgiveness of sin": You pretty much have only Acts 2:38 to go by.
Colossians 2:13-14, Acts 22:16 and there are more
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You cannot resist giving me proof texts to chase after, can you?
What did you expect after your response? They are consistent and pertinent to the discussion at hand. You make a comment seemingly belittling my use of scripture so the natural response would be show you where forgiveness is also spoken of within the context of baptism.
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Acts 8 says nothing about being baptized for the remission of sins. Your answer that "that is what baptism is for" is wholly inadequate.
Paul was told to get up and be baptized so that he can wash away his sins. What do you think that means?
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That's no answer.
Sure it is. It is not what you believe however it is an answer and a response with a question asking you what you think it means.
The obvious meaning of the text is that our sins are forgiven when we are baptized. Yet you cannot see that can you? It says one thing but means another to you right?
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I have already challenged the standard CoC position of "baptism for the remission of sins" on the basis of language and semantics, the entire problem is still up in the air. It is so far unsettled. To assume an position to an unsettled and disputable is, as far as I am concerned, not helpful.
I don't consider that much of a challenge sins the weight of scholarship is against you. Like I said before even the translators and scholars who disagree with my theology have the integrity to translate "eis" correctly believing that it means "unto". That should tell you something.
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It means that "unto" means whatever you want it to mean.
εἰς,p {ice}
1) into, unto, to, towards, for
Like I said scholars are in agreement with what it means. Even the ones who disagree with the theology agree that it means what it says and says what it means. And you cannot acknowledge that truth. A very consistent biblical truth at that.
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Further, I don't remember any response whatsoever regarding my question about Cornelius.
You don't remember because I haven't gotten there yet. I will get to it.
I have asked you about Cornelius and you want me to go chasing after Acts 22:16 and Col. 2:13-14? If you recall, my question about Acts 8 and 10 were in the interest of clarifying Acts 2:38. But instead you assume Acts 2:38 and perform eisegesis on Acts 8. Further, you want me go chasing proof texts. Sorry, I am not interested.
You need to be more patient my friend. I cannot spend all day on these threads. I told you I will answer you and I will. I will be more than happy to answer you. Just be patient man.
Love is patient. Love is kind.
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 11/18/2009 8:04:17 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1585
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Isn't it interesting that as soon as Paul found out that they had not received the Spirit the first thing he asked them was about their baptism. Paul assumes a link between baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit. It's as if baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit are the same thing.
Assumption. Maybe it means something else.
It may be assumption, but if I was not a Christian and read that passage knowing nothing at all about Christianity, that's the assumption I'd make. To make any other assumption, it seems to me, is to approach the passage with preconceived beliefs. And then try to make the passage fit those beliefs instead of fashioning one's beliefs around the passage.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 11/18/2009 9:00:30 AM
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jjbird
Posts: 508
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
And I asked you to explain that in light of the Samaritans and of the situation with Cornelius. In neither of those cases did receiving the HS happen when they were baptized.
Cornelius and his family got baptized. According to Jesus, Peter, Paul & Luke that is when we are made alive and forgiven filled with the Holy Spirit. In light of what the Jesus and the apostles taught it is very safe to say they received the Holy Spirit when they were immersed not before.
What Cornelius and his household experienced before they were immersed was a miracle having the Spirit come "upon" them! THere is a big difference between the Spirit coming upon you and then the Spirit dwelling in you.
The purpose of God having the Cornelius & Co. speak in tongues was to show Peter and the Jewish Christians that he was allowing the Gentiles into the church. Up until that time the church was only Jewish and according to Peter the law said they couldn't associate with Gentiles. Got gave Peter the vision before hand to show that all men would be able to enter the church not just Jews.
Peter goes back and tells the Jewish Christian brothers in the church in Acts 11 that Gentiles received the Spirit just like the apostles did in the beginning meaning Pentecost. The apostles spoke in tongues at Pentecost but they were not saved at Pentecost. They were already saved before hand.
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 11/22/2009 10:02:36 AM
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jjbird
Posts: 508
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline
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I guess some folks here gave up on this conversation. That's too bad. 
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