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Church of Christ and water Baptizim ? - 12/13/2008 6:58:31 PM
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Ironworker
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Just got off the telephone with a woman from the church of Christ. She got emotional when I brought up the thief on the cross and also how Romans it says Abraham was saved by faith So whats up with that? I'm saved by grace through faith not by works so I can't boast . I told her she is adding to grace? Were developing a friendship but there is some tension on that one topic. Also sad to say she isn't an Oakland Raiders fan either.
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Sin Sucks !
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RE: Church of Christ and water Baptizim ? - 12/13/2008 8:34:28 PM
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GodsMusic
Posts: 713
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From: Arkansas
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First off it's baptism with a "s" not a "z".
Second, I think your signature is a little offensive.
Third, try Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
If you're developing a friendship, then share the Christ that you have in common.
Lastly, there's probably already another thread that I'm sure the mods are gonna close and link this one to.
< Message edited by GodsMusic -- 12/15/2008 3:56:29 PM >
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RE: Church of Christ and water Baptizim ? - 12/16/2008 11:09:41 AM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GodsMusic
Third, try Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
This question isn't about the Law, it's about the New Covenant and grace. Nor is it foolish. While I think every believer should want to be baptized as soon as possible to testify of their new life in Christ and of His work for all that believe, I consider it to be very bad doctrine to teach that a person forfeits heaven if they die between the time they are born again and a trip into the baptistery.
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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Church of Christ and water Baptizim ? - 12/16/2008 11:13:34 AM
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earthless
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It is definitely NOT a foolish question or topic.
Is the 'Church of Christ' she attends part of the cult known as 'the Church of Christ'? That teaches that if you were not baptized by them that you are not saved?
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Church of Christ and water Baptizim ? - 12/17/2008 3:29:33 AM
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GodsMusic
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earthless, do you really consider the "Church of Christ" movement (I know they don't like the term denomination, congreagation is what they prefer) a cult? If so, don't you think you're taking that one a little too far?
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RE: Church of Christ and water Baptizim ? - 12/17/2008 8:41:40 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GodsMusic
earthless, do you really consider the "Church of Christ" movement (I know they don't like the term denomination, congreagation is what they prefer) a cult? If so, don't you think you're taking that one a little too far?
The term 'Church of Christ' is used by a lot of different groups/denominations/organizations.
One of them is a cult - which is why I asked if this was the same 'Church of Christ' that states everyone not baptized by them is dead in their sin/unsaved. If this is the same 'Church of Christ' that says all outside their walls are heretics.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Church of Christ and water Baptizim ? - 12/17/2008 9:33:14 AM
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drfuss
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: GodsMusic
earthless, do you really consider the "Church of Christ" movement (I know they don't like the term denomination, congreagation is what they prefer) a cult? If so, don't you think you're taking that one a little too far?
The term 'Church of Christ' is used by a lot of different groups/denominations/organizations.
One of them is a cult - which is why I asked if this was the same 'Church of Christ' that states everyone not baptized by them is dead in their sin/unsaved. If this is the same 'Church of Christ' that says all outside their walls are heretics.
drfuss: Earthless, you seem to know about the Church of Christ. Since there are many groups and they are very independent, I am having problems finding out what their theology, in general, is about concerning a Christian losing their salvetion. I am not so interested in what individual laymen think, but what their theological postion is.
The Wesleyan Arminians believe salvation is not lost by lack or works or by committing sins, but can be lost by refusing to confess, repent and be remorseful for known sins. In general, does the theology of the various Church of Christ groups believe lack of works or committing sins can cause the loss of salvation, or are they like the Wesleyan Arminians?
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RE: Church of Christ and water Baptizim ? - 12/17/2008 1:27:45 PM
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GodsMusic
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Here's the Church of Christ I'm thinking of:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churches_of_Christ
I believe (though I may be wrong) the Max Lucado is from this group.
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RE: Church of Christ and water Baptizim ? - 12/17/2008 9:41:06 PM
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Ironworker
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The lady I spoke to on the phone. Is of the one that believes no musical instruments are allowed in Church. I ask "WHY" she said " Who gave us the authority to have musical instruments"? I mentioned that King David had a harp ,she'd rebuke me any time I brought up Old testament points "Law Law Law"!!! Yes she believes one could lose their salvation. The thief on the cross she said was still Old testament stuff. Didn't like it when I brought up Abraham being saved by faith as taught early in Romans. She started crying and mentioned all never get married if I like to argue ?
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RE: Church of Christ and water Baptizim ? - 12/17/2008 10:04:38 PM
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Kat_D
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
It is definitely NOT a foolish question or topic.
Is the 'Church of Christ' she attends part of the cult known as 'the Church of Christ'? That teaches that if you were not baptized by them that you are not saved?
I believe you are referring to the International Church of Christ or the Boston Church of Christ. I have friends who are involved in this movement and it is indeed a cult. They are strongly into shepherding and also believe that baptism is a requirement of salvation, among other things. They also have absolutely no qualms about coming to other churches to recruit new members...we've caught several of them accosting people as they left our services.
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~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: Church of Christ and water Baptizim ? - 12/17/2008 11:39:48 PM
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rogasinger4Him
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I grew up in the Church of Christ that seemed to be a very strong denomination in middle Tennessee.
It was no musical instruments, if you weren't Church of Christ you were going to Hell, and it was a weekly helping of guilt and shame with almost no talk of grace or Christ's love. So as soon as I could I quit going. It was several years before I ever set foot in a church again.
Met a beautiful girl at college who just happened to be from a family that had 13 Methodist ministers in the past 5 generations (including cousins) So I am a member of the Methodist Church now even though I have some disagreements on some of the finer points of Methodist theology.
I really love the the love and grace that is so much a part of the Methodist church (at least the 2 that I have been a member).
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Dana
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RE: Church of Christ and water Baptizim ? - 12/18/2008 6:34:21 AM
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earthless
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The two posts above mine are the cult I speak of...
Not Max Lucado's church....
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RE: Church of Christ and water Baptizim ? - 12/18/2008 1:02:35 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
It is definitely NOT a foolish question or topic.
Is the 'Church of Christ' she attends part of the cult known as 'the Church of Christ'? That teaches that if you were not baptized by them that you are not saved?
I believe you are referring to the International Church of Christ or the Boston Church of Christ. I have friends who are involved in this movement and it is indeed a cult. They are strongly into shepherding and also believe that baptism is a requirement of salvation, among other things. They also have absolutely no qualms about coming to other churches to recruit new members...we've caught several of them accosting people as they left our services.
Kat_D,
The International Church of Christ isn't the only group that believes this. Traditional mainline CoC also believes this and you will find more close minded adherents in parts of the Southern US. It is true that many are flexible in their beliefs to the extent that they accept the rest of as Christians as well.
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Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Church of Christ and water Baptizim ? - 12/18/2008 1:12:01 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ironworker
The lady I spoke to on the phone. Is of the one that believes no musical instruments are allowed in Church. I ask "WHY" she said " Who gave us the authority to have musical instruments"? I mentioned that King David had a harp ,she'd rebuke me any time I brought up Old testament points "Law Law Law"!!! Yes she believes one could lose their salvation. The thief on the cross she said was still Old testament stuff. Didn't like it when I brought up Abraham being saved by faith as taught early in Romans. She started crying and mentioned all never get married if I like to argue ?
This lady is so rigid in her thinking that it may be impossible to speak rationally with her. It isn't your fault.
With regard to earthless, I don't know if they are a cult or not. I do call them cultic in their mindset and many have objected to my use of the term "cult." Sometimes they come to Crosswalk and get really upset if they cannot control the direction of the conversation. Discussing the issue of baptism with them gets them quite heated.
Regarding the Thief on the Cross, I agree that the New Covenant is different from the Old Covenant (Law) but in answer to that objection, I note that baptism was practiced before Jesus' death during the time of John the Baptist. The CoC often use baptismal examples and practices prior to Jesus' death on the cross. For example, Namaan's baptism to cure his leprosy in 2 Kings. While that is supposed to affirm the need of baptism by way of type, the The Thief on the Cross is not allowed, simply because it is an argument against their POV. That's the only reason.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Church of Christ and water Baptizim ? - 12/18/2008 1:59:01 PM
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tony.nz
Posts: 147
Joined: 7/6/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: GodsMusic
earthless, do you really consider the "Church of Christ" movement (I know they don't like the term denomination, congreagation is what they prefer) a cult? If so, don't you think you're taking that one a little too far?
The term 'Church of Christ' is used by a lot of different groups/denominations/organizations.
One of them is a cult - which is why I asked if this was the same 'Church of Christ' that states everyone not baptized by them is dead in their sin/unsaved. If this is the same 'Church of Christ' that says all outside their walls are heretics.
I think you must be right. I attend a small group that goes by this name. We certainly do not follow these absurd heresies, or others mentioned in this thread.
I think any group that gives themselves "sole agency" rights to salvation is in heresy, because they place themselves above the authority of God. It is the ultimate religious ego trip.
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RE: Church of Christ and water Baptizim ? - 12/18/2008 7:35:10 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1822
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ironworker
Just got off the telephone with a woman from the church of Christ. She got emotional when I brought up the thief on the cross and also how Romans it says Abraham was saved by faith So whats up with that? I'm saved by grace through faith not by works so I can't boast . I told her she is adding to grace? Were developing a friendship but there is some tension on that one topic. Also sad to say she isn't an Oakland Raiders fan either.
Don't bring up the topic. Just be her friend. Let Jesus live through you. It does no good to argue. She's not listening. Pray for her and ask the Lord to create an opportunity for you. And then rest. If it is His will, He will and it will happen. If not, you have been Jesus to her. And maybe she'll even turn and become a Raiders fan as well. 
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