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Why is the 'pastor' the the supposed leader in a fellowship?
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Why is the 'pastor' the the supposed leader in a fellow... - 12/18/2008 6:44:55 PM
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His_will_i_am
Posts: 124
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Where in the Scriputres does it teach that a 'pastor' is supposed to be the leader of a group of believers?
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And he will restore the understanding of the ancestors to their descendants and turn the hearts of the descendants back to their ancestors lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
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RE: Why is the 'pastor' the the supposed leader in a fe... - 12/18/2008 7:22:15 PM
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drfuss
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quote:
ORIGINAL: His_will_i_am
Where in the Scriputres does it teach that a 'pastor' is supposed to be the leader of a group of believers?
drfuss: In the New Testament, the leadership position is given to Apostles. Pastor is listed as a ministry and may be considered a position along with the rest of the elders that run the N. T. churches. When there was no Apostles in the church, the church was governed by a number of elders.
However, most churches adopted the Senior Pastor (or single pastor) system many years ago. This system is so embidded in our church culture that trying to change it back to the N.T. system would cause such an upheavel in the church, that I do not recommend it now.
Who knows, the senior pastor system may be what God wants us to operate under now. However, we should remember that the N.T. scriptures assumed a plurality of elders system when addressing relationships within the church. It never says "Obey HIM who has the rule over you"; it is always plural (those).
Today, our constitutions and bylaws provide the agreed upon procedures on how the church should be governed.
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RE: Why is the 'pastor' the the supposed leader in a fe... - 12/18/2008 7:32:19 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 4567
Joined: 9/14/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drfuss
quote:
ORIGINAL: His_will_i_am
Where in the Scriputres does it teach that a 'pastor' is supposed to be the leader of a group of believers?
drfuss: In the New Testament, the leadership position is given to Apostles. Pastor is listed as a ministry and may be considered a position along with the rest of the elders that run the N. T. churches. When there was no Apostles in the church, the church was governed by a number of elders.
However, most churches adopted the Senior Pastor (or single pastor) system many years ago. This system is so embidded in our church culture that trying to change it back to the N.T. system would cause such an upheavel in the church, that I do not recommend it now.
Who knows, the senior pastor system may be what God wants us to operate under now. However, we should remember that the N.T. scriptures assumed a plurality of elders system when addressing relationships within the church. It never says "Obey HIM who has the rule over you"; it is always plural (those).
Today, our constitutions and bylaws provide the agreed upon procedures on how the church should be governed.
There is already one current thread open on this topic, and this post in the other thread shows from the bible why this viewpoint is wrong. What is being taught here is the teaching of the "emerging" church, and not what is taught in the bible.
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RE: Why is the 'pastor' the the supposed leader in a fe... - 12/18/2008 7:34:02 PM
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His_will_i_am
Posts: 124
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quote:
In the New Testament, the leadership position is given to Apostles.
I would say that it is more accurate to say that one aspect of leadership is that of an apostle. A person could be called primarily to the ministry of an evangelist and still be an elder. Or even a ministry of helps and still be an elder.
quote:
However, most churches adopted the Senior Pastor (or single pastor) system many years ago. This system is so embidded in our church culture that trying to change it back to the N.T. system would cause such an upheavel in the church, that I do not recommend it now.
Did this system come from God or from men, or even from the enemy? What if that's exactly what our Lord desires, is an upheavel, a tearing down of the current system and a return to the old?
quote:
Who knows, the senior pastor system may be what God wants us to operate under now.
It seems to me, anyone who knows the Lord would know the correct answer to that questions don't you think?
quote:
Today, our constitutions and bylaws provide the agreed upon procedures on how the church should be governed.
Isn't this sad?
_____________________________
And he will restore the understanding of the ancestors to their descendants and turn the hearts of the descendants back to their ancestors lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
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RE: Why is the 'pastor' the the supposed leader in a fe... - 12/18/2008 9:08:59 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 1401
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: His_will_i_am
Where in the Scriputres does it teach that a 'pastor' is supposed to be the leader of a group of believers?
1 "This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop*(*pastor, overseer), he desires a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil." -I Timothy 3
If there were no such thing, why would God have listed the requirements for the position in His Holy Word?
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: Why is the 'pastor' the the supposed leader in a fe... - 12/18/2008 9:11:39 PM
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prophet
Posts: 689
Joined: 4/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: drfuss
quote:
ORIGINAL: His_will_i_am
Where in the Scriputres does it teach that a 'pastor' is supposed to be the leader of a group of believers?
drfuss: In the New Testament, the leadership position is given to Apostles. Pastor is listed as a ministry and may be considered a position along with the rest of the elders that run the N. T. churches. When there was no Apostles in the church, the church was governed by a number of elders.
However, most churches adopted the Senior Pastor (or single pastor) system many years ago. This system is so embidded in our church culture that trying to change it back to the N.T. system would cause such an upheavel in the church, that I do not recommend it now.
Who knows, the senior pastor system may be what God wants us to operate under now. However, we should remember that the N.T. scriptures assumed a plurality of elders system when addressing relationships within the church. It never says "Obey HIM who has the rule over you"; it is always plural (those).
Today, our constitutions and bylaws provide the agreed upon procedures on how the church should be governed.
There is already one current thread open on this topic, and this post in the other thread shows from the bible why this viewpoint is wrong. What is being taught here is the teaching of the "emerging" church, and not what is taught in the bible.
elder overseeing is not emerging thingy......the brethren churches have been using this system for eons.
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Why is the 'pastor' the the supposed leader in a fe... - 12/18/2008 9:15:06 PM
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prophet
Posts: 689
Joined: 4/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
quote:
ORIGINAL: His_will_i_am
Where in the Scriputres does it teach that a 'pastor' is supposed to be the leader of a group of believers?
1 "This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop*(*pastor, overseer), he desires a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil." -I Timothy 3
If there were no such thing, why would God have listed the requirements for the position in His Holy Word?
The word bishop cannot be translated as pastor, but elder or overseer. Pastor hood is a function, not a heirachy. An evengelist, teacher, prophet may still lead the church.
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Why is the 'pastor' the the supposed leader in a fe... - 12/18/2008 9:16:53 PM
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drfuss
Posts: 128
Joined: 3/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: drfuss
quote:
ORIGINAL: His_will_i_am
Where in the Scriputres does it teach that a 'pastor' is supposed to be the leader of a group of believers?
drfuss: In the New Testament, the leadership position is given to Apostles. Pastor is listed as a ministry and may be considered a position along with the rest of the elders that run the N. T. churches. When there was no Apostles in the church, the church was governed by a number of elders.
However, most churches adopted the Senior Pastor (or single pastor) system many years ago. This system is so embidded in our church culture that trying to change it back to the N.T. system would cause such an upheavel in the church, that I do not recommend it now.
Who knows, the senior pastor system may be what God wants us to operate under now. However, we should remember that the N.T. scriptures assumed a plurality of elders system when addressing relationships within the church. It never says "Obey HIM who has the rule over you"; it is always plural (those).
Today, our constitutions and bylaws provide the agreed upon procedures on how the church should be governed.
There is already one current thread open on this topic, and this post in the other thread shows from the bible why this viewpoint is wrong. What is being taught here is the teaching of the "emerging" church, and not what is taught in the bible.
drfuss: As shown later in the other thread, that post does not show this viewpoint to be wrong.
However, I am not here to debate this, but to inform.
For more information about the Plurality of Elders in the New Testament Church, see Dr. Wallace's paper on the subject. Dr. Wallace is a theology professor at the Dallas Theological Seminary. His paper can be found at:
http:www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=414.
Having given my position, I am signing off.
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RE: Why is the 'pastor' the the supposed leader in a fe... - 12/18/2008 9:59:57 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 1401
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
quote:
ORIGINAL: His_will_i_am
Where in the Scriputres does it teach that a 'pastor' is supposed to be the leader of a group of believers?
1 "This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop*(*pastor, overseer), he desires a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil." -I Timothy 3
If there were no such thing, why would God have listed the requirements for the position in His Holy Word?
The word bishop cannot be translated as pastor, but elder or overseer. Pastor hood is a function, not a heirachy. An evengelist, teacher, prophet may still lead the church.
if a man desire the office of a bishop;
which is the same with that of a pastor or elder; and so here the Syriac version renders it, "if a man desires presbytery, or eldership"; and it lies in preaching the word, administering the ordinances of the Gospel, and taking care of the discipline of the church, and in the visiting, inspection, and oversight of it -John Gill
3:1 This 1 [is] a true saying, 2 If a man a desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
Having completed the treatise of doctrine and of the manner of handling of it, as well also of public prayer, he now in the third place comes to the persons themselves, speaking first of pastors, and afterwards of deacons. Geneva Study Bible
3:1 He desireth a good work - An excellent, but laborious, employment.
3:2 Therefore - That he may be capable of it. A bishop - Or pastor of a congregation. -John Wesley
3:1 If a man desired the pastoral office, and from love to Christ, and the souls of men, was ready to deny himself, and undergo hardships by devoting himself to that service, he sought to be employed in a good work, and his desire should be approved, provided he was qualified for the office. -Matthew Henry
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: Why is the 'pastor' the the supposed leader in a fe... - 12/18/2008 10:28:03 PM
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prophet
Posts: 689
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
quote:
ORIGINAL: His_will_i_am
Where in the Scriputres does it teach that a 'pastor' is supposed to be the leader of a group of believers?
1 "This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop*(*pastor, overseer), he desires a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil." -I Timothy 3
If there were no such thing, why would God have listed the requirements for the position in His Holy Word?
The word bishop cannot be translated as pastor, but elder or overseer. Pastor hood is a function, not a heirachy. An evengelist, teacher, prophet may still lead the church.
if a man desire the office of a bishop;
which is the same with that of a pastor or elder; and so here the Syriac version renders it, "if a man desires presbytery, or eldership"; and it lies in preaching the word, administering the ordinances of the Gospel, and taking care of the discipline of the church, and in the visiting, inspection, and oversight of it -John Gill
3:1 This 1 [is] a true saying, 2 If a man a desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
Having completed the treatise of doctrine and of the manner of handling of it, as well also of public prayer, he now in the third place comes to the persons themselves, speaking first of pastors, and afterwards of deacons. Geneva Study Bible
3:1 He desireth a good work - An excellent, but laborious, employment.
3:2 Therefore - That he may be capable of it. A bishop - Or pastor of a congregation. -John Wesley
3:1 If a man desired the pastoral office, and from love to Christ, and the souls of men, was ready to deny himself, and undergo hardships by devoting himself to that service, he sought to be employed in a good work, and his desire should be approved, provided he was qualified for the office. -Matthew Henry
Bishop
Strong's Number: 1984 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
ejpiskophv from (1980)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Episkope 2:606,244
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ep-is-kop-ay' Noun Feminine
Definition
investigation, inspection, visitation
that act by which God looks into and searches out the ways, deeds character, of men, in order to adjudge them their lot accordingly, whether joyous or sad
oversight
overseership, office, charge, the office of an elder
the overseer or presiding officers of a Christian church
It is not the same as a pastor
Strong's Number: 4166 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
poimhvn of uncertain affinity
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Poimen 6:485,901
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
poy-mane' Noun Masculine
Definition
a herdsman, esp. a shepherd
in the parable, he to whose care and control others have committed themselves, and whose precepts they follow
Bishop is a hierachy, Pastor is a specific functional position without the hierachy notion.
In any case, the community is to be governed by a few elders not just the one pastor or otherwise.
< Message edited by prophet -- 12/18/2008 10:39:18 PM >
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Why is the 'pastor' the the supposed leader in a fe... - 12/18/2008 10:53:36 PM
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Ps103
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