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The Holy Spirit - 1/12/2009 1:54:28 PM
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Prairiehiker
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Was the Holy Spirit on Earth before Jesus came?
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Search me, Oh God, and know my heart
Try me, and know my anxieties;
And see if there is any wicked way in me, and
Lead me in the way everlasting Psalm 139:22-24
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Go Steelers!!!
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RE: The Holy Spirit - 1/12/2009 2:35:15 PM
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drmark
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Is the Holy Spirit physically located anywhere, PH? How do you understand John 16:7 - "But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you."
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: The Holy Spirit - 1/12/2009 8:53:38 PM
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Preludeian
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Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
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RE: The Holy Spirit - 1/15/2009 8:26:54 PM
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mvic
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This is a difficult question to answer as both Bible quotations above have shown.
Suffice it to say that the presence of God has always been on earth and throughout the Universe. Only He knows in what form it was present; and still is.
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RE: The Holy Spirit - 1/15/2009 10:27:08 PM
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drmark
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Personally, I find "omnipresence" to be one of, if not the most, difficult divine attribute to comprehend.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: The Holy Spirit - 1/15/2009 10:49:13 PM
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Prairiehiker
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quote:
Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you."
This is the verse that actually led me to this question. Does that mean that the Holy Spirit has no presence on Earth until Jesus departed to heaven?
_____________________________
Search me, Oh God, and know my heart
Try me, and know my anxieties;
And see if there is any wicked way in me, and
Lead me in the way everlasting Psalm 139:22-24
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Go Steelers!!!
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RE: The Holy Spirit - 1/15/2009 10:54:32 PM
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drmark
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Well, the verse states Jesus will send Him to you (meaning the disciples). It doesn't say Jesus would send the Holy Spirit to or on Earth. What do you think, PH?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: The Holy Spirit - 1/16/2009 10:33:02 AM
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Preludeian
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There are numerous known encounters with the Holy Spirit being in men before the Time of Jesus. Something that comes to mind is while the elders met with Moses at the tent of the meeting the Spirit of God descended on the two who did not attend and they began to prophesize.
It would seem to me that Jesus says unless he leaves them(the apostles) the Holy Spirit will not come onto them(the apostles). No longer would God(the son) be with them in flesh but God(Holy Spirit) would be with them now.
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RE: The Holy Spirit - 1/16/2009 10:16:50 PM
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Prairiehiker
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Thanks for all the replies.
Why do I get the feeling that Drmark is being condescending with his responses. Isn't this the forum to go to learn. If the Spirit is in you, wouldn't He instruct you to be a little gentler to people wanting to learn more about Him? Or is this only for people who claims that they know it all?
_____________________________
Search me, Oh God, and know my heart
Try me, and know my anxieties;
And see if there is any wicked way in me, and
Lead me in the way everlasting Psalm 139:22-24
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Go Steelers!!!
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RE: The Holy Spirit - 1/16/2009 10:30:23 PM
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drmark
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I can't be any more transparent and vulnerable with my human frailty than post #5, Prairiehiker. If you can find a single post of mine that claims I "know it all", then I have no reason to ever return to these Forums. I ask frequent questions in my posts because I sincerely want to better understand what others are thinking. I am sorry if you view that as "condescending" - personally I would consider it condescending for others to misrepresent my position because of inadequate time or effort taken in clarification. Maybe that's my problem, PH, and I will consider your criticism thoughtfully.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: The Holy Spirit - 1/16/2009 11:44:57 PM
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Prairiehiker
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Sorry, Drmark, I'm getting reallly really frustrated when the topic of the Holy Spirit and being led by the Spirit and being indwelled by the spirit gets discussed in other forums so I thought I'd post in here to learn more about it. People talk all sorts of voices they're hearing and it's supposedly the Holy Spirit or not using your mind because it's not by the Spirit. I felt that you were mocking my lack of knowledge in this area which I fully agree that i don't have a great deal of knowledge in this area. If that's not what you were trying to do, then all is forgiven.
John MacArthur is doing a 2 week teaching right now on the Holy Spirit and I admire him a great deal. Perhaps I should listen to it first before i start asking questions.
_____________________________
Search me, Oh God, and know my heart
Try me, and know my anxieties;
And see if there is any wicked way in me, and
Lead me in the way everlasting Psalm 139:22-24
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Go Steelers!!!
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RE: The Holy Spirit - 1/17/2009 9:32:28 AM
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drmark
Posts: 4636
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quote:
John MacArthur is doing a 2 week teaching right now on the Holy Spirit and I admire him a great deal. Perhaps I should listen to it first before i start asking questions. I would also recommend that you consider studying about the Holy Spirit from a Wesleyan/Holiness perspective. Perhaps THIS ARTICLE would be a good place to start.
I'm glad we are reconciled, PH. God bless your walk in the Lord.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: The Holy Spirit - 1/17/2009 12:07:29 PM
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Pierac
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Hebrew understanding of the Spirit.
"The ruach Yahweh (Spirit of the Lord) in the Old Testament is not a separate, distinct entity; it is God's power-the personal activity in God's will achieving a moral and religious objective. God's ruach is the source of all that is alive, of all physical life. The Spirit of God is the active principle that proceeds from God and gives life to the physical world (Genesis 2:7). It is also the source of religious concerns, raising up charismatic leaders, whether judges, prophets, or kings. The ruach Yahweh (Spirit of God) is a term for the historic creative action of the one God which, though it defies logical analysis, is always God's action.
Dunn, in his book Christology in the Making adds, "The continuity of thought between Hebraic and Christian understanding of the Spirit is generally recognized. There can be little doubt that from the earliest stages of pre-Christian Judaism "spirit" (ruach) denoted power - the awful, mysterious force of the wind (ruach), of the breath (ruach) of life, of ecstatic inspiration (induced by divine ruach) in particular, "Spirit of God" denotes effective divine power In other words, on this understanding, Spirit of God is in no sense distinct from God, but is simply the power of God, God himself acting powerfully in nature and upon men."
It makes a big difference to our Western minds at least - right at the start of the Bible, whether we translate "this Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters or "a wind [breath] from God swept over the face of the waters" (Gen 1:2). The first possibility conveys to our modern minds the impression that the Spirit is an individual in "his" own right. Many Trinitarians read it that way. The second possibility suggest that God's energetic and creative presence was active.
Psalms 139 expresses this Hebrew parallelism beautifully: "where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?" (v.7). Thus, the Spirit of God is a synonym for God's personal presence with us. N.H. Snaith in his book The Distinctive Ideas of the Old Testament explains, "The ruach-adonai [Spirit of the Lord] is the manifestation in human experience of the life-giving, energy-creating power of God. And, The Spirit of the Lord is the medium through which God exerts his controlling power." A brief look at a few more Old Testament verses will show this Hebrew parallelism, where the Spirit of God (Heb. ruach) can mean the breath, life, Spirit, presence, and most particularly - a word of Yahweh: (Job 26:4) (Job 27:3-4) (Job 32-8) (2Sam.23:2) (Prov.1:23) and, Isa 40:7 The grass withers, the flower fades when the breath of the LORD blows on it; surely the people are grass. 8 The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever.
It is vital not to rush over this. Many other Old Testament examples could be cited to show that spirit and breath are interchangeable. The fact that the 'spirit' and 'breath' are translations of the same Hebrew and Greek words points to the root meaning of spirit as God's creative power, the energy behind his utterance.
Another world-renowned known Anglican, J.I. Packer in his book Keep in Step with the Spirit (a committed believer in the Trinity) acknowledges that the doctrine of the Holy Spirit's "distinct personhood is not expressed by the Old Testament writers." So then, by what reason then do these learned commentators come to the conclusion that the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Godhead? They admit that they stepped outside the boundaries of the Old Testament. They believe that it is a doctrine newly revealed only in the New Testament. However, The New Testament does not alter the Hebrew concept of "spirit" as we will now see. The distinguished Bible scholar N. H. Snaith states that: "The New Testament pneuma (spirit) is used in all the ways in which the Hebrew ruach ( breath, wind, spirit) is used. It is used of the wind (John 3:8), of human breath, both ordinarily (2 Thessalonians 2:8) and of the breath which means life (Rev. 11:11). It is used of the vital principle in man (Luke 8:55, etc.), as opposed to 'flesh.'"
Luke writes concerning the Ministry of John the Baptist that: "It is he who will go as a forerunner before him and the Spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers back to the children, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous; so as to make ready a people prepared for Lord" (Luke 1:17). The Virgin Mary is told that "[the] Holy Spirit will come upon you and the power of the Most High will overshadowed you" (Luke 1:35). And concerning the promise of the coming of the Holy Spirit the risen Jesus predicts that the disciples are to wait in Jerusalem where they "shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you" (Acts 1:18). In these three Lukan passages we observe the interplay of the concepts of "power" and "spirit" precisely as found in the Old Testament.
This Hebrew concept is further seen in the famous passage where the apostle Paul burst out in praise to God. He does this by quoting from Elijah 40:13: "Oh, the depths of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and unfathomable His ways! [Now his Old Testament quotation] For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became his counselor?" (Rom.11:33-34) But when we compare his source in Isaiah we note that Paul has changed it slightly. Isaiah actually wrote, "Who has directed the spirit of the Lord, or as His counselor has informed him?"
What we see here is a typical Hebrew understanding: To have the mind of the Lord is to be directed by the Spirit. There are many New Testament examples of this interplay between "mind" and "spirit." In Philippians 2, Paul wants the Christian to be "of the same mind," which is to be "united in spirit, intent on one purpose"(v.2). On a personal level, how may I know that I am filled with the Holy Spirit? The answer is when I have the mind of God, the attitude that He has, the values that his word and espouses and above all the truth which it teaches!
Another passage of interest in this vein is 1 Corinthians 2:10-12.
1Co 2:10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who [Greek neuter "which"] is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. Here "the spirit of the man which is in him" is paralleled with "the Spirit of God" which is from God. It is quite clear that a person's spirit is not a separate person from himself, but is rather his/her own mind and inner thoughts. Just so, "the Spirit of God" refers to God's inner and personal centre, His mind and word, even His self-consciousness.
Spirit = Power = Mind = Presence = Breath = Wind = Word
It is quite evident that in the apostle's mind to be filled with the spirit is precisely the same thing as letting the word (teaching, message) of Christ direct our lives. This is simply to say that in John chapters 14 to 16, "the Spirit" that will come to help the apostles will be the post-resurrection revelation of Christ's message directed by the risen Christ to the world through the apostles.
The acid test as to whether I have "Jesus in my heart" is whether I have his words informing and empowering my life. If his Gospel-word is the motivating principle in my life, then I have the Spirit of God dwelling in me. Indeed, I have the Father and the Son. Hence Paul's vigorous warning that if anyone fails to demonstrate the presence of the words of Christ in his life, he is devoid of understanding (1 Tim 6:3). I am firmly convinced that the Scriptures are harmonious concerning the Spirit of God as being a power and word and mind of God in action. The Trinitarian assertion that the Holy Spirit is God himself is surely impossible to maintain when we note that nowhere in the Scripture is the Holy Spirit prayed to or worshiped. At the end of the last book of the Bible when the redeemed saints are in the presence of God and of Jesus Christ in glory it is not a strange omission that the third member of the Godhead has no seat of authority on the final throne?
When reading in Exodus I came upon the phrase "the finger of God." I was aware that the same phrase was used in the book of Luke regarding the method Jesus uses to cast out demons. So I decided to do a phrase study using e-Sword. The following information is from my latest research.
Exo 8:19 Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the LORD had said.
Exo 31:18 And he gave to Moses, when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.
Luk 11:14 Now he was casting out a demon that was mute. When the demon had gone out, the mute man spoke, and the people marveled. 15 But some of them said, "He casts out demons by Beelzebul, the prince of demons," 16 while others, to test him, kept seeking from him a sign from heaven
Luk 11:20 But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
I had also come upon Scriptures that says Jesus cast out demons by the Spirit of God. This would strongly lead to the conclusion that the finger of God is the Spirit of God the Father.
Mat 12:22 Then a demon-oppressed man who was blind and mute was brought to him, and he healed him, so that the man spoke and saw. 23 And all the people were amazed, and said, "Can this be the Son of David?" 24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, "It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons."
Mat 12:28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
When you connect Luke 11:20 with Matthew 12:28 then you get the understanding of what the finger of God is.
Luk 11:20 But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Mat 12:28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Now the same is true with the Holy Spirit. We also have in the Bible two parallel teachings of the same subject one Matthew and one in Luke.
Luk 12:11 And when they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not be anxious about how you should defend yourself or what you should say, 12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."
Mat 10:19 When they deliver you over, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour. 20 For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
Likewise, when you connect to Matthew 10:20 with Luke 12:12 you get an understanding of what the Holy Spirit is. It is the Spirit of the Father. There is no separate being called the Holy Spirit. Again that's why the Holy Spirit is never worshiped, prayed to, or has a seat on a throne.
Paul
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RE: The Holy Spirit - 1/17/2009 9:52:36 PM
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drmark
Posts: 4636
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quote:
The acid test as to whether I have "Jesus in my heart" is whether I have his words informing and empowering my life. If his Gospel-word is the motivating principle in my life, then I have the Spirit of God dwelling in me. Indeed, I have the Father and the Son. Where are the Father and the Son presently?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: The Holy Spirit - 1/18/2009 12:49:27 AM
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Pierac
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
The acid test as to whether I have "Jesus in my heart" is whether I have his words informing and empowering my life. If his Gospel-word is the motivating principle in my life, then I have the Spirit of God dwelling in me. Indeed, I have the Father and the Son. Where are the Father and the Son presently?
They're Just Chillin! 
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RE: The Holy Spirit - 1/19/2009 8:52:51 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Genesis 1:2
...and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters What does this mean to you, wawhoo? Where were these "waters" located since God had yet to make the expanse on day 2 or separate them from dry land on day 3?
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: The Holy Spirit - 1/19/2009 5:28:33 PM
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Pierac
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
My understanding is that the Holy Spirit came and went during the Old Testament times, but was not on the earth, nor in believers, continuously. When Jesus said He would send the Holy Spirit he meant to indwell believers and to be a continuous presence on the earth through them, unlike anything in the Old Testament. That's just my understanding, though. Don't know if I could back it up with Scripture if I was asked to. 
You are mistaken about the indewlling of the Spirit.
Many people confuse the indwelling of the Spirit of God in us with the way that the Holy Spirit came upon the Apostles and the first Christians. These are two completely different things. God gave the Apostles and the first Christians gifts in order to confirm the gospel of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus the Messiah. That was their purpose, to confirm their teachings. We today have the greatest proof of God’s plan for our salvation through the resurrection of Jesus. The resurrection is proved by the lives of the Apostles.
All the persecution that they went through without any human reward can only be explained if what they said about the risen Jesus is true. But none of the Apostles had this proof. Imagine, if Paul came into your town and said that the Messiah had come, and that his name is Jesus, and that the proof is that God raised him from the dead. The first words out of your mouth would be, "Can you prove it?" How do I know that you are telling me the truth? Besides his testimony that you could not verify, he would have no solid proof. This is why God gave them signs (the gifts of the Spirit). We today do not need to confirm the gospel, that confirmation has already been given by the resurrection of Jesus Christ through the lives of the Apostles.
The gifts of the Spirit that the early Christians received when the Apostles laid hands on them (AKA baptism of the Holy Spirit), were for those early days when the church was spreading for the reasons given above. There was as of yet no New Testament that a new church could read and learn the will of God as taught by Jesus, thus the need for supernatural revelation through prophesying and tongues. Peter states that these gifts are for two generations only, which would agree with the time frame of when the writings of the New Testament were starting to circulate. Paul says that when the church reaches maturity, that these gifts will end. Let’s take a look at both of those verses.
Acts 2:38-39: "Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is made to you and your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord will call."
Peter tells them to repent and be baptized and they will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. He tells them that the promise is for them and their children (two generations) and those far off. "Those far off" is a reference not to Jews who were geographically far away, or to believers in the future, but to Gentiles. The Jews considered the Gentiles to be far off from God and His covenant with the Jews.
This can be verified by Paul in Ephesians 2:11-13:
"Therefore, remember that at one time you, Gentiles in the flesh, called the uncircumcision by those called the circumcision…But now in Christ Jesus you who were once far off have become near by the blood of Christ."
So the promise of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is then for those generations of Jews and Gentiles and their children. The generations after this time period have confirmation of the gospel by the greatest sign of all, the resurrection of Jesus Christ which can be proven by the lives of the Apostles. These first generations did not have that proof.
1 Corinthians 13:8 -12 tells us when these gifts will end:
"Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end.
For we know partially and we prophesy partially; but when the complete comes, the partial will come to an end. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became an adult, I put an end to my childish ways (NSRV)."
This verse has been interpreted several different ways. "When the complete comes" has been translated as when the "perfect comes" in some other bibles. Zondervan’s Greek and English Interlinear Bible has it in the original Greek as: "but when the perfect thing comes." The interpretations of this verse range in meaning. One interpretation suggests that tongues will cease "when the perfect comes." The "perfect" being a reference to Jesus. I do not think that Paul would refer to Jesus as a thing. A quick look into the meaning of the Greek word "teleioo" that is translated as "complete" or "perfect" will help us in understanding this verse.
Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words; teleioo - to bring to an end by completing or perfecting, is used (I) of "accomplishing" (see Finish, Fulfill); (II) of "bringing to completeness."
Strong’s Greek Dictionary; teleioo - To complete, accomplish, consummate, consecrate, finish, fulfill, (make) perfect.
With these definitions we can better understand that the word "teleioo" is not a reference to Jesus, but as we shall see, a reference to the maturity of the body of Christ (the community of believers) which starts at 1 Corinthians (12:27). Paul is comparing the early church to a child. Its knowledge is limited like a child’s. He then compares the church’s adulthood to the day when it is mature. How is the body of Christ mature?
There are two possibilities. The first is that in Paul’s day people would follow the truth of Christ because of the gifts of the Spirit that the first two generations displayed (these gifts were signs to confirm the message of Christ). This is referred to as "knowing partially." People believed because of what they saw.
In 1 Corinthians 12:31 he says that now he will show us an even better way to recognize the truth of Christ (an even better sign). This is the way of love (God’s love in us). Then Paul says that when it is accomplished, completed, made perfect, that the gifts will cease, "the partial will pass away." To be mature for Paul means to know fully.
1 Corinthians 13:12: "At present I know partially, then I shall know fully."
To know fully the love of God that comes with the knowledge of the message of Christ (the proclamation of the kingdom of God and His Messiah), and for people to believe this message not because of the gifts of the Spirit, but because of the love that is witnessed among Christ’s followers. Love is a greater sign of confirmation than the gifts of the Spirit that will eventually cease.
John 13:34-35 states:
"I give you a new commandment: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love one another. This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another"
Matthew 5:44-48 is all about love for your neighbor and your enemies.
"But I say to you, love your enemies… For if you love those who love you…So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect."
To be perfect like our father is to be able to love like our Father. This is how Christ was made perfect and how we are to strive for perfection. Unconditional love.
John 17:23 speaks of being made perfect by the love of God in them.
"That they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me."
The second view is that Paul is comparing the early church to a child. Its knowledge is limited like a child’s. He then compares the body of Christ reaching maturity in the knowledge of Christ and his message. Maturity in the sense that it will possess the entire truth, the entire Bible. Remember, there was of yet no New Testament for the churches to study, hence, the need for prophesying and the other gifts. What Paul is saying is that when the churches reach adulthood (possession of the Bible), when the truth is completed, finished, accomplished, that prophesying and tongues will cease.
Vine’ Expository Dictionary has a commentary on 1 Corinthians 13:8:
"There is no evidence of the continuance of this gift after apostolic times nor indeed in the later times of the Apostles themselves; this provides confirmation of the fulfillment in this way of 1 Corinthians 13:8, that this gift would cease in the churches, just as "prophecies" and "knowledge" in the sense of knowledge received by immediate supernatural power. The completion of the Holy Scriptures has provided the churches with all that is necessary for individual and collective guidance, instruction, and edification."
Although both are possible, I think that the first interpretation is the correct one. It in agreement with the teachings of Christ, while the second one suggests that Paul knew that there would someday be a New Testament. There is no way of knowing if Paul knew that his letters and the writings of others would become the New Testament.
One trap that I hope the reader does not fall into, is to think that I am saying that God does not perform any miracles today. Miracles and the gifts of the Spirit are two entirely different things. I do believe God still does miracles today, but I think they are more on a personal level. They are not needed to confirm the gospel. That confirmation has already been given.
Paul
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RE: The Holy Spirit - 1/19/2009 8:13:03 PM
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drmark
Posts: 4636
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quote:
You are mistaken about the indewlling of the Spirit. And you are quite bold to think that 20 posts on crosswalk.com gives you the credence to invalidate three centuries of Scripturally based doctrinal tradition.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: The Holy Spirit - 1/19/2009 10:38:06 PM
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Pierac
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
You are mistaken about the indewlling of the Spirit. And you are quite bold to think that 20 posts on crosswalk.com gives you the credence to invalidate three centuries of Scripturally based doctrinal tradition.
That's the draw back of forums, no personal communication, facial or voice expressions, just words. I did not intend for it to be bold but what I see in scripture. Also what does 20 post have to do with any thing? Are you implying, I first opened my bible upon my first post here at crosswalk.com?
You would serve me better by reading my post and expose any errors you may see, as I always welcome input both positive and negative. You can also take it or leave it, you will either learn something new or disagree and strengthen your own belief, either way you can't lose. 
Peace,
Paul
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RE: The Holy Spirit - 1/20/2009 8:43:17 AM
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drmark
Posts: 4636
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: online
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quote:
That's the draw back of forums, no personal communication, facial or voice expressions, just words. Thanks for reminding me, Paul. I have posted this very same rebuttal when my intentions have been misperceived. I have learned already from your limited posts and appreciate the effort you put into them. Sorry for the misunderstanding, Mark
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: The Holy Spirit - 1/20/2009 11:52:17 PM
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Preludeian
Posts: 163
Joined: 5/19/2008
From: NA
Status: offline
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quote:
You are mistaken about the indewlling of the Spirit.
Many people confuse the indwelling of the Spirit of God in us with the way that the Holy Spirit came upon the Apostles and the first Christians. These are two completely different things. God gave the Apostles and the first Christians gifts in order to confirm the gospel of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus the Messiah. That was their purpose, to confirm their teachings. We today have the greatest proof of God’s plan for our salvation through the resurrection of Jesus. The resurrection is proved by the lives of the Apostles.
All the persecution that they went through without any human reward can only be explained if what they said about the risen Jesus is true. But none of the Apostles had this proof. Imagine, if Paul came into your town and said that the Messiah had come, and that his name is Jesus, and that the proof is that God raised him from the dead. The first words out of your mouth would be, "Can you prove it?" How do I know that you are telling me the truth? Besides his testimony that you could not verify, he would have no solid proof. This is why God gave them signs (the gifts of the Spirit). We today do not need to confirm the gospel, that confirmation has already been given by the resurrection of Jesus Christ through the lives of the Apostles.
The gifts of the Spirit that the early Christians received when the Apostles laid hands on them (AKA baptism of the Holy Spirit), were for those early days when the church was spreading for the reasons given above. There was as of yet no New Testament that a new church could read and learn the will of God as taught by Jesus, thus the need for supernatural revelation through prophesying and tongues. Peter states that these gifts are for two generations only, which would agree with the time frame of when the writings of the New Testament were starting to circulate. Paul says that when the church reaches maturity, that these gifts will end. Let’s take a look at both of those verses.
Acts 2:38-39: "Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is made to you and your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord will call."
Peter tells them to repent and be baptized and they will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. He tells them that the promise is for them and their children (two generations) and those far off. "Those far off" is a reference not to Jews who were geographically far away, or to believers in the future, but to Gentiles. The Jews considered the Gentiles to be far off from God and His covenant with the Jews.
My NIV footnote disagrees with you on your interpretation of Acts 2:38-39. It states "Repent and be baptized. Repentance was important in the message of the foreunner, John the Baptist, in preaching of Jesus and in the directions Jesus left just before his ascension. So also baptism was important to John the Baptisizer, in the instructions of Jesus and in the preaching recoreded in Acts -- where it was associated with the belief, acceptance of the word and repentance. in the name of Jesus Christ. Not a contradiction to the fuller formula given in Mt28:19. In Acts the abbreviated form emphasized the distinctive quality of the baptism, for Jesus is now incluced in a way that he was not in John's baptism. for the forgiveness of your sins. Not that baptism effects orgiveness. Rather, forgiveness comes through that which is symbolized by baptism. Holy Spirit. Two gifts are now given: the forgivness of sins and the Holy Spirit. The promise of the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit is given to all Christians
It also says your interpretation of 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 is wrong as well. If I need to post that I can.
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RE: The Holy Spirit - 1/21/2009 8:09:15 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2227
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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RE The Holy Spirit
quote:
ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker
quote:
Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you."
This is the verse that actually led me to this question. Does that mean that the Holy Spirit has no presence on Earth until Jesus departed to heaven?
quote:
Does that mean that the Holy Spirit has no presence on Earth until Jesus departed to heaven?
First of all it’s a kingdom principal that while Jesus was with us on the earth the HS and He are 1
By the examples Jesus has shown to us in the Gospels… for the express reason that Jesus is the only one who will reveal the HS… to us as mentioned in verse 7 below
He showed to us that the HS has 3 attributes,
Which one would you like know about?
We can start here….In this context for example He is called the helper
John 16:7-15
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you;
but if I depart,…. “I will”… send Him to you.
8 And when He has come,
He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; = John 8:21-24
10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; = Faith = John 20:29
11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. = John 8:43>>>>
SO.... 1 of the attributes of the helper is judgment as we see here in this example in
John 8:43
43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.
……….What Jesus meant there in Verse 43 as being not able to listen to His word = no revelation…
and
is the result of what was spoken of in the OT in Eze 28 as being destroyed From the midst of the fiery stones and
later reiterated in Isaiah 14: as Lucifer = …………15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit.
....So when cross referencing Eze 28 with Isa 14 we see that verse 15 is telling us that Lucifer once walked “on the mountain of God”… in a place were both Moses in the OT and Paul in the NT each” received” the law and “the revelation” of Christ Jesus…….. therefore Lucifer being destroyed from the mountain of God and from the midst of the fiery stones…1therefore...15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit.. means ….his has “no revelation” of the truth “both in the OT and the NT”…
for instance…. Islam is a prime example of that attribute thereof.
So by them not being able to hear His words ....Jesus as an example of the Spirit of truth that proceeds from the Father judged them correctly …
In Verse 43 of John 8.... saying
….. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do.
He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
And of course Jesus is that witness as an attribute of the Helper in judgment.... as mentioned above in v11
45 But.... because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: The Holy Spirit - 1/22/2009 6:54:17 PM
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Pierac
Posts: 79
Joined: 1/17/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Preludeian
quote:
You are mistaken about the indewlling of the Spirit.
Many people confuse the indwelling of the Spirit of God in us with the way that the Holy Spirit came upon the Apostles and the first Christians. These are two completely different things. God gave the Apostles and the first Christians gifts in order to confirm the gospel of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus the Messiah. That was their purpose, to confirm their teachings. We today have the greatest proof of God’s plan for our salvation through the resurrection of Jesus. The resurrection is proved by the lives of the Apostles.
All the persecution that they went through without any human reward can only be explained if what they said about the risen Jesus is true. But none of the Apostles had this proof. Imagine, if Paul came into your town and said that the Messiah had come, and that his name is Jesus, and that the proof is that God raised him from the dead. The first words out of your mouth would be, "Can you prove it?" How do I know that you are telling me the truth? Besides his testimony that you could not verify, he would have no solid proof. This is why God gave them signs (the gifts of the Spirit). We today do not need to confirm the gospel, that confirmation has already been given by the resurrection of Jesus Christ through the lives of the Apostles.
The gifts of the Spirit that the early Christians received when the Apostles laid hands on them (AKA baptism of the Holy Spirit), were for those early days when the church was spreading for the reasons given above. There was as of yet no New Testament that a new church could read and learn the will of God as taught by Jesus, thus the need for supernatural revelation through prophesying and tongues. Peter states that these gifts are for two generations only, which would agree with the time frame of when the writings of the New Testament were starting to circulate. Paul says that when the church reaches maturity, that these gifts will end. Let’s take a look at both of those verses.
Acts 2:38-39: "Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is made to you and your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord will call."
Peter tells them to repent and be baptized and they will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. He tells them that the promise is for them and their children (two generations) and those far off. "Those far off" is a reference not to Jews who were geographically far away, or to believers in the future, but to Gentiles. The Jews considered the Gentiles to be far off from God and His covenant with the Jews.
My NIV footnote disagrees with you on your interpretation of Acts 2:38-39. It states "Repent and be baptized. Repentance was important in the message of the foreunner, John the Baptist, in preaching of Jesus and in the directions Jesus left just before his ascension. So also baptism was important to John the Baptisizer, in the instructions of Jesus and in the preaching recoreded in Acts -- where it was associated with the belief, acceptance of the word and repentance. in the name of Jesus Christ. Not a contradiction to the fuller formula given in Mt28:19. In Acts the abbreviated form emphasized the distinctive quality of the baptism, for Jesus is now incluced in a way that he was not in John's baptism. for the forgiveness of your sins. Not that baptism effects orgiveness. Rather, forgiveness comes through that which is symbolized by baptism. Holy Spirit. Two gifts are now given: the forgivness of sins and the Holy Spirit. The promise of the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit is given to all Christians
It also says your interpretation of 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 is wrong as well. If I need to post that I can.
Indeed, who can we trust?
Name - This word of course brings to mind an actual name, such as John Doe. But what does it mean to a Jew.
Name - 1. designates more than the external person; it tends to express his basic character, his personality. We might say it is an emanation of the person himself. 2. authority of, expressing attributes, in acknowledgment or confession of (NABD & VED).
This definition helps us in a verse like John 17:26:
"I (Jesus) made known to them your name and I will make it known."
Jesus obviously did not come to inform the Apostles that God’s name is YHWH. He came to explain God’s character, His attributes, His will, so that we could come to truly know God and follow His ways. So this understanding of the word "name" along with the definition of the next word "baptize" will clear up another misunderstood verse.
Baptize - We always think of being baptized in water, either as infants or adults. Yes, this definition is used many times in the New Testament, but there is also another meaning that we must store in the back of our minds.
Baptize - 1. to unite together, to become closely bound to (TGEL & VED).
Now we will put together the definitions of "name" and "baptize" to get the true meaning of Matthew 28:19. Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words has this commentary on this verse:
"The phrase in Matthew 28:19, ‘baptize them in the name’ would indicate that the baptized person was closely bound to, or became property of, the one in whose name he was baptized."
With these definitions we can safely paraphrase this verse as follows:
"Go out into the world and introduce or bring them into the knowledge of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."
Which is exactly what they did. The Apostles had to go into the world and explain to the Gentiles who God is, who the Son (The Messiah) is, and also about the power that they would receive from God’s Spirit. If we take it to mean that we are to water baptize people in the actual name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, then why is it that no one in the Bible ever uses this formula to water baptize believers?
There is a very strong position held by many scholars that this verse was not part of the original text of Matthew’s Gospel, as Eusebius, a third century Christian apologist, quoted the text in a shorter form rather than the form that now appears in the gospel. It reads,
"Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in my name" (which is in agreement with the paraphrase that was just given above).
One commentator writes,
"There is much probability in the conjecture that it is the original text of the gospel, and that in the second century the longer clause supplanted the shorter ‘baptizing them in my name.’ An insertion of this kind, derived from liturgical use, would have rapidly been adopted by copyist and translators" (The International Critical Commentary, by Willoughby C. Allen Volume 26, pp. 307-308).
This position has strong Biblical support by the fact that the Apostles at no recorded instance baptize using the formula of "The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" as Jesus supposedly commanded them to do. They always baptize "In the name of Jesus Christ."
Also the parallel passage in Mark 16:15-18 does not mention in any way this formula, and the Gospel of Mark is believed to be written before Matthew. But these are the results of using definitions that are different than the ones that the writers used.
Indeed, who do we trust?
Paul
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