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RE: Kicka - #5 - 2/10/2009 8:22:49 PM
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agapetos
Posts: 9639
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quote:
I would say that if there is cold, scientific proof that a certain behavior is always dangerous or abusive, then there would be cause to possibly make it a law. So it's ok to sacrifice some, just as long as it's not always dangerous?
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RE: Kicka - #5 - 2/10/2009 9:42:05 PM
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TwinCityGirl
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quote:
ORIGINAL: magdaleine
quote:
Nicole, you just send him my way. We'll treat him right and give him some good homecooked food. (You should come, too!) (Bring Lexie.)
I want to come too! Though I've never been ill-treated as a Canadian in the US.
Yes, Maggie, you definitely need to come, too!
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RE: Kicka - #5 - 2/10/2009 9:42:05 PM
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Sideways
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I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but in the spanking example - it could become abusive in the hands of some parents, but not in others. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to outlaw all spanking.
As far as the "feeding your kid McDonald's everyday" being outlawed, I'm not sure how one would enforce that one.
What would you all consider to be a victimless crime? Kids who don't wear helmets can become victims, but aren't a victim till they actually have an accident. Should parents only be prosecuted if their kid has a bicycle accident and wasn't wearing a helmet, therefore sustaining a serious brain injury?
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RE: Kicka - #5 - 2/10/2009 9:57:33 PM
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agapetos
Posts: 9639
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quote:
Should parents only be prosecuted if their kid has a bicycle accident and wasn't wearing a helmet, therefore sustaining a serious brain injury? Here, a person can be fined if they are driving a car with a child who isn't in a car seat/wearing a seat belt (non-driving adults can also be fined). Not sure if either could be prosecuted or get points on their license. Why shouldn't adults be charged if they're sending their darlings out into the world on bikes without helmets ~ regardless of whether they have accidents or not.
quote:
I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but in the spanking example - it could become abusive in the hands of some parents, but not in others. When someone is caring for a child needs to discipline a child and uses spanking as an easy out (because if you have to constantly put a child in time out/on a naughty spot whatever until they get the message) doesn't that count as abuse? Does a child really have to be beaten black and blue by a 'spanking' for it to be child abuse?
quote:
Therefore, it doesn't make sense to outlaw all spanking. Why not? You're saying that it's ok if 5 children get abused (by being spanked) by the people who are supposed to be caring for them because 95 kids aren't abused. I'm not giving statistics here, just throwing numbers out. When is one case of abuse a case too many? If 20 kids were abused? If 50 kids were abused?
Again, I'm not saying that spanking should be banned. I am saying that something needs to be done to prevent kids being abused.
quote:
As far as the "feeding your kid McDonald's everyday" being outlawed, I'm not sure how one would enforce that one. I fail to understand why anyone would ever want to feed someone they loved McDonalds ever, let alone every day.
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RE: Kicka - #5 - 2/10/2009 9:57:48 PM
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TwinCityGirl
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Who do your children "belong to" (for lack of a better term)?
Has anybody here ever ridden in the back of a pick-up truck out in the country? Is that abusive or irresponsible? How many farm kids have ridden on (or driven) tractors? You do know Britney Spears is from a rural area so she would know the back of a pick-up truck, and as I recall her defense of "child on lap" was:
1. My child and I are being mobbed and I feel he and I are unsafe, and,
2. I'm from the country and we've done this a million times when I was growing up.
Now, that doesn't make it the smoothest move to do it in Los Angeles, of course, but I dare say any of us would make our kid stop and put a bike helmet on if we were in a forest that started on fire? Or if your child stepped out in traffic that you wouldn't yank them by the arm to grab them from getting hit by a car?
Come on, if you felt your kid was in danger you would just remove the kid.
People shouldn't criticize Britney Spears so much for that. We've all seen footage of her being MOBBED. I bet that not only gets old sometimes but that it gets scary, too. (It's not the mob has any respect for the safety of her child or herself.)
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RE: Kicka - #5 - 2/10/2009 10:07:03 PM
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TwinCityGirl
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Seriously -- have any of you ladies ever lived out in the countryside? I'm talking towns that have like a hundred people in them.
It's not like the whole world lives in Manhattan or Hong Kong or something. I can just see it: the equivalent of Barney Fife -- who is the "police officer" in the town (when he's not working at the butcher shop or cutting the grass for the Swedish Lutheran Church or at the corner cafe' with his buddies) has to go tell the 6 kids playing at the park that they must have helmets on.
I've lived there. I've also lived out in the country where there was literally just our house, then a mile, then another house. So the county sheriff should have a right to come onto our property if he's driving by and sees me riding without a helmet in my own gravel driveway? Really?
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RE: Kicka - #5 - 2/10/2009 10:09:05 PM
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agapetos
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I agree there are circumstances when something happens and you need to get out of a situation (I'd have no problem risking throwing a child from a burning building if I thought it was the only chance they stood of surviving and there was some hope the child would be caught by someone).
These are the exception to the rule though ~ and to be honest, I have major problems with paparazi photographers etc who will mob celebrities. What is interesting though is that one of the Beckhams children has epilepsy and they've requested that the press don't use flash photography near him ~ and the press have respected this. Do some celebs make their children accessories?
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Maggie
September 09
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RE: Kicka - #5 - 2/10/2009 10:15:00 PM
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clag4christ
Posts: 1795
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TwinCityGirl
Donna,
It's not that I don't see any validity to bike helmets. I just don't like the government telling me that I have to wear one, or my kid does.
Jeanie
I agree...
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RE: Kicka - #5 - 2/10/2009 10:15:16 PM
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agapetos
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quote:
Is that abusive or irresponsible? My parents were so irresponsible at times with my sister and me, it's a wonder we both managed to make it to adulthood.
quote:
Has anybody here ever ridden in the back of a pick-up truck out in the country? My mother was very involved in guiding when we were kids and every summer we'd go to guide camp with her as she was generally QM. X amount of guides in the back of a furniture removal van, going down the motorway at x miles per hour, with part of the back open, so we could see (and wave) to other motorists. Who would dream of doing such an idiotic thing these days?
Times change. Just because it was ok to do it once, doesn't make it ok to do it now.
If it did, the maximum speed a car would go at would be 5mph and there'd be a little man walking infront waving a red flag to alert everyone there was a vehicle on the road!
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Maggie
September 09
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RE: Kicka - #5 - 2/10/2009 10:19:08 PM
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clag4christ
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quote:
Has anybody here ever ridden in the back of a pick-up truck out in the country?
When my sister and I were little (before 1983 or so) we were constantly in the back of my parents pick up that had a shell on it. My mother used to leave the 'window' for the camper shell open (i.e. unlocked). We were able to lift the window while she was driving and of course there were no seats/seatbelts in the back. I remember lifting the window while we were on the freeway a few times.
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<-----Jael as Tinkerbell - Halloween 2008
Capitalism is the Marxist term for Christian Society. -David Chilton
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RE: Kicka - #5 - 2/10/2009 10:27:02 PM
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TammyIsBlessed
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quote:
Who would dream of doing such an idiotic thing these days?
How is it more dangerous now than it was then?
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RE: Kicka - #5 - 2/10/2009 10:56:33 PM
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PrincessDonna
Posts: 6468
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From: Cow country, Upstate NY
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quote:
ORIGINAL: isaacsmom
quote:
ORIGINAL: TwinCityGirl
Seriously -- have any of you ladies ever lived out in the countryside? I'm talking towns that have like a hundred people in them.
Uh huh, this is where I live. 
Me too. 
And yes, I have ridden in the back of pick up trucks. It was dumb. People have been killed doing that. One of my mom's cousins was killed falling off a hay wagon, working on the farm. She hit her head just "right". That, in the process of working, was a legitimate accident. If something had happened to one of us messing around in the back of a truck, I would not call that so much an accident as stupidity.
quote:
I would say that if there is cold, scientific proof that a certain behavior is always dangerous or abusive, then there would be cause to possibly make it a law.
I hate to go back to the tractor thing...okay, no, I don't. It has very much affected the rest of my life. And I don't mind extending this line of thinking to something bigger, something more concrete in my life right now.
So...because the tractor travels the roads all the time and "only" has a few accidents a year, that means there shouldn't be a law about tractors that are too big for the road? Because most of the time they don't run over Subarus, no one should make a law that they must have an escort vehicle to operate on the road?
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RE: Kicka - #5 - 2/10/2009 11:19:38 PM
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TammyIsBlessed
Posts: 625
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TammyIsBlessed
quote:
Who would dream of doing such an idiotic thing these days?
How is it more dangerous now than it was then?
I think I should rephrase...
It was just as idiotic back then as it would be now.
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I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but still I can do something. I will not refuse to do the something I can do. Helen Keller
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RE: Kicka - #5 - 2/11/2009 12:42:07 AM
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uponeagleswings
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quote:
Has anybody here ever ridden in the back of a pick-up truck out in the country?
When I was a kid and we did driving vacations, we would take the middle seat out of our minivan and once we were on the freeway/open road we were allowed to lay on the floor of the van. This was in the '90s, so after most seat belt laws. The only reason my parents started wearing seat belts was the click it or ticket laws, although we (the kids) had to wear them unless we were on a road trip.
I don't know where the line should be in the government protecting people from themselves (or protecting kids from their parents). There is no helmet law here, and it isn't unusual for me to pass a motorcycle on the freeway with the rider having no helmet. I do tend to think we err on the side of too many laws in an attempt to make the entire world cushion-y and rubber-padded. And who gets to decide what's "dangerous"? To some, not vaccinating fully and on schedule is dangerous, and they want to make all vaccines mandatory for "the greater good". So who gets to decide?
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Kicka - #5 - 2/11/2009 12:49:32 AM
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PinkCarnations
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TammyIsBlessed
quote:
Who would dream of doing such an idiotic thing these days?
How is it more dangerous now than it was then?
More traffic and drivers who are have too many distractions (cell phones, etc.) while driving.
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without making an enemy.
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Roberta
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RE: Kicka - #5 - 2/11/2009 1:53:46 AM
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magdaleine
Posts: 4818
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quote:
Should parents only be prosecuted if their kid has a bicycle accident and wasn't wearing a helmet, therefore sustaining a serious brain injury?
Seems to me that having a child sustain a serious brain injury is sufficient punishment for such parents. They have to live with their regret and their child's disability for the rest of their lives.
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RE: Kicka - #5 - 2/11/2009 7:58:15 AM
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Sideways
Posts: 3233
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quote:
ORIGINAL: uponeagleswings
And who gets to decide what's "dangerous"? To some, not vaccinating fully and on schedule is dangerous, and they want to make all vaccines mandatory for "the greater good". So who gets to decide?
Again, it's very easy to prove how dangerous riding without a helmet is. Vaccinating on a delayed scheduled is a far different story; that becomes more a matter of personal opinion. Spanking is also a matter of personal opinion and how the spanking is applied. As far as protecting children from abusive spankers, technically that's what CPS is for, but considering the low standing that CPS has on this board, I'm not sure I want to go there.
quote:
So...because the tractor travels the roads all the time and "only" has a few accidents a year, that means there shouldn't be a law about tractors that are too big for the road? Because most of the time they don't run over Subarus, no one should make a law that they must have an escort vehicle to operate on the road?
Donna, if you look at what I posted before, I did say that certain behaviors were always dangerous even if an accident didn't actually occur each and every time. If a tractor is to large for a lane on the road, it shouldn't be driving on that lane, especially not without an escort vehicle!
My uncle was killed by a truck driver who was driving while tired - which is just as dangerous as driving while drunk! None of us here would dream of driving drunk, but how many of us having driven while tired? Most if not all of us, I bet. Should there be a law against driving while tired, since it has been scientifically proven to be equivalent to driving drunk? I'm not sure how to enforce it, since driving drunk has an actual test that can be administered and tested.
Again, just because there isn't an accident everytime someone drives tired, doesn't mean it isn't dangerous.
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Row, row, row your boat, gently down the stream. If you see a crocodile, don't forget to scream.
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RE: Kicka - #5 - 2/11/2009 9:00:35 AM
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lexie
Posts: 1178
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From: Toronto
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quote:
Seems to me that having a child sustain a serious brain injury is sufficient punishment for such parents. They have to live with their regret and their child's disability for the rest of their lives.
I fully agree with this. But it seems to me that the making of the laws isn't out of concern for our children, but from the fact that the government/insurance companies/whoever don't want to have to put out money to help the family following the serious brain injury.
My nephew was hit by a car, at a crosswalk, WITH a crossing guard, by a speeding teenager, and you should have seen the fight that the family had with the insurance company. Insurance that they paid into for things just like this (thank goodness for lawsuits.)
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RE: Kicka - #5 - 2/11/2009 9:42:58 AM
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Howzat...
Posts: 4238
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: PA, USA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: magdaleine
quote:
Should parents only be prosecuted if their kid has a bicycle accident and wasn't wearing a helmet, therefore sustaining a serious brain injury?
Seems to me that having a child sustain a serious brain injury is sufficient punishment for such parents. They have to live with their regret and their child's disability for the rest of their lives.
Punishment for the parents, yes, but that child has paid for the parents' stupidity. Punishment after the fact. More than sad.
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Hello everyone! Yeah, I'm new to Kicka. I'll probably be lurking more than posting, but I wanted to let you know I was here. Some of you have seen me around, some not. But here I am!
BTW, good dicussion! I'm enjoying this!
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RE: Kicka - #5 - 2/11/2009 10:20:29 AM
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Mrs.Wifey
Posts: 3217
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From: The Gorgeous plains of Colorado
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quote:
When I was a kid and we did driving vacations, we would take the middle seat out of our minivan and once we were on the freeway/open road we were allowed to lay on the floor of the van. This was in the '90s, so after most seat belt laws. The only reason my parents started wearing seat belts was the click it or ticket laws, although we (the kids) had to wear them unless we were on a road trip.
I never understood that logic either. You are far more likely to be killed in an accident on a freeway going 85mph then you are in an accident in town going 40mph. I've been witness to several accidents on the highway here going 65 or 70mph, I've seen an SUV flip and roll across 4 lanes of traffic taking out the cars in it's path.
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I'll keep my guns, freedom, and money- you can keep "the change."
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RE: Kicka - #5 - 2/11/2009 11:17:24 AM
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Howzat...
Posts: 4238
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: PA, USA
Status: online
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Thank you, Jeanie. I know I'm going to like it here.
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Pam
Proud of my hometown
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