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RE: Kicka - #5 - 2/11/2009 11:21:50 AM
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TwinCityGirl
Posts: 794
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapetos
Why shouldn't adults be charged if they're sending their darlings out into the world on bikes without helmets ~ regardless of whether they have accidents or not.
TToes, you know I love you, girl, but do you want me locked up in jail if I let my kid ride his bike up and down our driveway (which is long) or on our sidewalk without a bike helmet? My kid isn't old enough to even ride a bike so this is all hypothetical, but do we need to build a special jail or prison just for parents whose kids ride without helmets?
If a child dies or is injured because of a parent's negligence (which also might be taking 30 seconds to run to the bathroom and he falls while learning to stand) does the parent get locked up for that, too?
We can all list a litany of "accidents that happened to somebody's kid where the kid died or was seriously injured" and you know what? That is called a TRAGEDY. It's not called a CRIME. (Not in my book.)
Where do you start drawing the lines? Do you say to Britney Spears (if she has another kid) "Say, Britney, you can't raise this one because you'll just get mobbed and you might put the baby on your lap to escape and because you're kind of a hillbilly."
When you create a child -- it's YOUR child. That is not the same as Dana's situation where her husband was abused by his parents. So if your child dies on your watch, it's YOUR fault, and YOUR BURDEN to live with that.
You don't give birth to the world's baby or the community baby or the government's baby. I didn't have my kid so that he can belong to the government and they can tell me everything to do for him. The government does not own me, and they do not own my child.
Jeanie
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RE: Kicka - #5 - 2/11/2009 11:51:16 AM
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KatMack
Posts: 602
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From: Along the Canopy Roads
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Couldn't have said it better myself, Jeanie.
Regarding spanking. I think it's pretty ridiculous to state that parents that use spanking just haven't taken the time to try time outs. Every child is different. My first did great with time outs- they were the perfect tool for discipline. My second- they don't phase him at all. In fact he thinks it's funny if you put him in timeout. Now, spankings work with him. Are you going to tell me and every other parent that because SOME parents are abusive, I can't do what works with MY child? Some parents use timeouts in an emotional abusive way. Should we outlaw them because of that?
--Kat
_____________________________
<-- My sweet blessings.
"God will do what God will do. What I'm responsible for is to believe he's all he says he is and obey what he tells me to do. " -magdaleine
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RE: Kicka - #5 - 2/11/2009 12:53:04 PM
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spitzu
Posts: 521
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Hmm... my parents' lives were saved from seatbelts, so as anti-big government as I usually am, I'm fine with that one. My kid cousin was hit by a car while bike riding. He's fine... he was wearing a helmet. Are his parents the type that would have had him in it without the law? I don't know... I have my doubts. So I'm fine with that law too.
I will rejoice the day that hitting a child in any manner is made illegal, so I'm definitely fine with that.
And now that I have surely gotten myself into hot water, I must go. I'm spending the afternoon with my aunt and 19 month old girl cousin (who is never hit and rides safely in a pink Britax Marathon car seat). :P
_____________________________
<- Ahh, the sound of a real shutter. It's like music!
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RE: Kicka - #5 - 2/11/2009 12:55:42 PM
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clag4christ
Posts: 1838
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From: We just moved to the big state of Texas!
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quote:
I will rejoice the day that hitting a child in any manner is made illegal, so I'm definitely fine with that.
I understand that some people aren't 'spankers'...but I would greatly appreciate it if we (those that do use spanking as a corrective implement) weren't labeled as 'hitters'....because I don't hit my kids...and I don't abuse them...
_____________________________
<-----Jael as Tinkerbell - Halloween 2008
Capitalism is the Marxist term for Christian Society. -David Chilton
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RE: Kicka - #5 - 2/11/2009 1:06:50 PM
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TwinCityGirl
Posts: 794
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
I'm not even gonna touch the bike helmet issue. It's like the vax or no vax discussion and that's too much for me.  Anyway, I'm going to the gyno this afternoon for my checkup and hopefully they don't find anything. I haven't been in 5 years and have never had an abnormal test. I know it's been too long, but ... .
Hi, Deb!
I hope that your gyno appointment this afternoon goes well for you! 
-----------
And I just wanted to say that this isn't so much about bike helmets to me. This is about people lining up to ask the government (which is just a bunch of people, by the way, the GOVERNMENT) "I've had a kid. What should I do now?"
It makes me fearful that some women here would likely call the cops if they saw a kid riding without a helmet, even on the kid's own driveway.
You know, having a DOG or CAT is "gross" and "unsafe", too, if you think of it. They go to the bathroom in your house sometimes (cats almost always, even in a litter box). They lick themselves, they lick OTHER animals they come across. Then they come and lick someone's newborn baby and everybody goes "Awwwww...."
I suppose next we should ask the government to outlaw pet owning for parents. Because, wow, your cat just licked its nether regions and now is headed toward either your kid, your kid's bed, or to lick something your KID is going to lick next. Ewww...
But I guess people want to overlook that.
And hey, I'm not for the law on that, by the way. I'm just saying there are plenty of gross things or things other people might look in on YOUR house (that bag of Oreos, anyone? Giving 4-year-old Junior a sip of beer? Second-hand smoke, even third-hand smoke from a car or jacket??)....I'm guessing we could all have something that someone else would deem "unsafe". Remember that there are people who believe that reading to your children from your Bible is "hate speech".
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RE: Kicka - #5 - 2/11/2009 1:31:46 PM
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Nicole_Michelle
Posts: 800
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Jeanie, I'm trying to pm you, but my pm's keep timing out... So I saved what I wrote and will try pm'ing you again later.
_____________________________
<----Beemer
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RE: Kicka - #5 - 2/11/2009 1:37:10 PM
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myka
Posts: 978
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Oh, speaking of Britney, Bebo Norman has a song, "Britney" --
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RE: Kicka - #5 - 2/11/2009 1:40:12 PM
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manda59
Posts: 8202
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TwinCityGirl
You know, having a DOG or CAT is "gross" and "unsafe", too, if you think of it. They go to the bathroom in your house sometimes (cats almost always, even in a litter box). They lick themselves, they lick OTHER animals they come across.
I aprpeciate that you were using this as an extreme (perhaps hyperbolic) example, but I just wanted to make the point that, generally speaking, children who grow up in a household where there are animals are actually more likely to have stronger immune systems and are less likely to have allergies.
_____________________________
"Manda.....you said what I tried to say, just much better"
sharonjef, October 2009
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RE: Kicka - #5 - 2/11/2009 1:41:51 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
Posts: 3404
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From: The Gorgeous plains of Colorado
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quote:
So should our kids have to wear helmets on other unsafe equipment like trampolines and playgrounds too?
Um. You do if you are my mother's child 
_____________________________
Ryanne- trying hard to be my husband's girlfriend and my daughter's mother.
I'll keep my guns, freedom, and money- you can keep "the change."
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RE: Kicka - #5 - 2/11/2009 1:58:51 PM
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TwinCityGirl
Posts: 794
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
quote:
ORIGINAL: TwinCityGirl
You know, having a DOG or CAT is "gross" and "unsafe", too, if you think of it. They go to the bathroom in your house sometimes (cats almost always, even in a litter box). They lick themselves, they lick OTHER animals they come across.
I aprpeciate that you were using this as an extreme (perhaps hyperbolic) example, but I just wanted to make the point that, generally speaking, children who grow up in a household where there are animals are actually more likely to have stronger immune systems and are less likely to have allergies.
Manda, I know that about allergies but you still can't tell me it's CLEAN to have your cat like their parts and then lick the baby. And yeah, that does happen, and people have been here in the forums and told us stories about the baby getting hugged by kitty or sleeping with Fluffy or licked by Moose the Dog.
I could care less whether someone wants Fluffy to sleep in the same bed WITH THEIR KID. It's THEIR KID, not mine.
And, I would also like to address the "kids without helmets might cause an accident" (not a direct quote) statement.
So, if a kid WEARING a bike helmet crashes into a car and the people in the car get hurt, does that make it more okay than if the kid was not wearing a helmet?
Isn't the whole point bike and driver safety and awareness here not so much who and what is strapped to everybody's heads? Wouldn't it likewise be safer to have our children helmeted while sitting in the car? I'm sure that would be safer. Should we get that on the law books, too?
Do you see what I'm getting at? It's a slippery slope. What if they required newborns leaving the hospital to wear helmets, too? Suddenly now you have to buy a car seat AND a helmet. And what if they require it to be a NEW car seat and a NEW helmet? Or should we just be printing more money in our basements to keep up with all the demands.
Obviously I am all for child safety: I am a big sister to 5 people, an aunt to 14 people, a mother to one and I have taken mission trips with more than 100 teenagers out of state or even out of the country and returned them all safely. So I don't get the piling on of someone who just has one opinion "I would like bike helmet use optional" (or in Kimberley's example) "I would like to discipline my child fairly with an occasional spank as needed without condemnation" (not a direct quote) and that gets turned into "Wow, only dumb people don't keep their kids safe."
I am neither dumb nor am I uncaring nor am I unsafe, but I sure don't need the government to tell me that my kid has to wear a BIKE HELMET. It's not like I'm teaching him how to DRIVE A CAR when he's 5 years old or something! I feel like people lose perspective. It actually feels to me like a lot of people are looking out the window with their fingers on the phone buttons ready to call the cops on the "negligent neighbors".
And again, don't YOU have something negligent BY SOMEONE'S STANDARDS in YOUR house? Any alcohol there? Any cigarettes in the house? Paper clips? Coins? Can you child use the computer? Is every outlet hole covered? Lock on the toilet lid? Pets non-existent? All organic, non-genetically modified foods in the cupboards? No vaccinations with questionable ingredients or at questionable ages? Your car is BIG enough that even if a large vehicle slammed into it you would be safe? Does your vehicle have side airbags? Is your child sitting by an air bag? Does your baby have older siblings that might forget and leave something like a Cheerio out for a little one to find and choke on?
Do you get it? We're all unsafe by our nature as flawed human beings. So sitting around and pointing fingers at those you deem "unsafer" than you gets you what, exactly? And gets the "unsafe people" what, exactly?
And prosecuting people who let their 15-year-old ride on a country street in a town of less than 100 people and only 57 cars -- uh, you think we should pay to lock that adult up because of the supposedly hazardous and reckless conditions they've left that child in? Then what happens to the child while mom and dad are locked up in jail? Foster care? Ever heard of abuse in the foster care system....
Seriously -- we are running in circles if we get to all this.
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RE: Kicka - #5 - 2/11/2009 2:06:21 PM
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TwinCityGirl
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I lived in a town of about 11,000 until I was 14. Then we moved to a one-horse town with highways to nowhere when I was almost 15.
Later I lived out in the country in a stand-alone house.
Now I live in the biggest city in our state.
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RE: Kicka - #5 - 2/11/2009 2:13:15 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
Posts: 3404
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From: The Gorgeous plains of Colorado
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I'm just playin' with ya Jeanie.
I tend to agree with you about the laws, as we are super small government fans here. Actually, we recently had a similar debate with some friends regarding "laws are meant to be for the protection and well being of the citizens". We couldn't agree as to what was really necessary and what wasn't.
But what do you teach your kids? Do you teach them that you don't believe in laws but they still need to abide by them, or do you tell them it doesn't matter?
_____________________________
Ryanne- trying hard to be my husband's girlfriend and my daughter's mother.
I'll keep my guns, freedom, and money- you can keep "the change."
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RE: Kicka - #5 - 2/11/2009 2:19:03 PM
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Sideways
Posts: 3361
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I think the Bible is quite clear on obedience to authority, although I'll openly admit to speeding on occasion, so I'm being a tad hypocritical.
Certainly we can teach our kids that it's ok to disagree with the government and work to change laws we don't agree with. Actually, I think it's a good idea to encourage our kids to be as involved as they are led to be.
_____________________________
Row, row, row your boat, gently down the stream. If you see a crocodile, don't forget to scream.
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RE: Kicka - #5 - 2/11/2009 2:21:06 PM
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ncgrlnhisgrip
Posts: 44
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Nowhere, turn left
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Jeanie, you brought me to an interesting one. Moving on from bike helmets...
My company specializes in indoor air quality problems. I have the equivalent in my field of a doctorate in indoor environments (HHP). I have helped with some of the studies that have proven that ETS (Environmental Tobacco Smoke) causes asthma in young children (under the age of 3). Scientific research is now solid to prove that ETS is a cause AND a trigger for asthmatic symptoms in young children. Why don't we outlaw smoking around kids under 3? Proven dangerous, proven abusive (if you consider a causal relationship for a potentially deadly illness "abusive")- why not make a law? This is what I am talking about when I say "really good idea" laws. Yes, they're good ideas- is it stupid to smoke around a kid? Absolutely. Is it criminal?
The government cannot legislate morality. It wasn't designed to and even if we wanted it to, there isn't the political structure to uphold or enforce moral laws. God enforces those.
quote:
The government does not own me, and they do not own my child.
This is where we are headed. Anybody read 1984 and said "WOW"? (There ya go, Jeanie, potential Kicka book study of the month!) ;)
Someone asked what I meant by victimless crimes and my personal belief on this one lines up pretty much with a political party's statement- "We hold that all individuals have the right to exercise sole dominion over their own lives, and have the right to live in whatever manner they choose, so long as they do not forcibly interfere with the equal right of others to live in whatever manner they choose." In other words, live how you want until you hurt or interfere with the life or rights of someone else. That's just my personal political belief.
I don't believe our government was ever intended to legislate morality.
_____________________________
--Dana--
If I'm here, its only a mirage... keep watching, I'll disappear again.
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RE: Kicka - #5 - 2/11/2009 2:24:52 PM
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TwinCityGirl
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But in my state, as in 19 other states, it's not a LAW to go without a helmet. So I'm not teaching my child to break a law. There is no law. 40% of the states currently leave it up to the families to decide.
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RE: Kicka - #5 - 2/11/2009 2:27:23 PM
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Sideways
Posts: 3361
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ncgrlnhisgrip
I don't believe our government was ever intended to legislate morality.
Well, that gets into other topics like states that outlaw homosexual activity and such (speaking of victimless crimes).
But helmets and seat belts aren't about morality, it's about the safety of children. And yes, while a parent might be "punished" by the loss of their child when the kid is crashes his bike without a helmet, why should the child have to suffer too?
_____________________________
Row, row, row your boat, gently down the stream. If you see a crocodile, don't forget to scream.
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RE: Kicka - #5 - 2/11/2009 2:39:44 PM
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spitzu
Posts: 521
Joined: 4/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: clag4christ
quote:
I will rejoice the day that hitting a child in any manner is made illegal, so I'm definitely fine with that.
I understand that some people aren't 'spankers'...but I would greatly appreciate it if we (those that do use spanking as a corrective implement) weren't labeled as 'hitters'....because I don't hit my kids...and I don't abuse them...
This isn't the thread to debate that (and I won't anyway) but based on the definition of the two words, I am fine using either word. I apologize if you get bothered by it... I'm not accusing anyone of being anything. The topic was about laws, and I stated my position on the laws being discussed.
_____________________________
<- Ahh, the sound of a real shutter. It's like music!
Blog
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RE: Kicka - #5 - 2/11/2009 2:41:16 PM
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TwinCityGirl
Posts: 794
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
But helmets and seat belts aren't about morality, it's about the safety of children. And yes, while a parent might be "punished" by the loss of their child when the kid is crashes his bike without a helmet, why should the child have to suffer too?
Do you really think "the government" gives two hoots about your two kids, or if you have 3 more kids -- 2 girls, 1 boy? Do you really think the government CARES?
If my son falls down and dies right in front of me from that ACCIDENT, do you think someone in "the government" is shedding a tear? "Oh, darn! Jeanie's kid died!"
What is this "the government cares for you" mantra that so many are humming? What about the bailout and the proposed stimulus package that is going to stick it to my kid to pay off that debt? Do you think the government CARES in a warm, fuzzy way about us?
Because I don't.
The government does ITS JOB. There are no feelings involved and they don't care how cute your pink nursery is or if you are struggling with infertility or a goiter or ingrown toenails. One of their functions is to keep a sense of order.
I am not quite sure how helmeting every kid walking around in a one-horse town is really keeping order.
This is so far beyond bike helmets. I should stop talking about bike helmets.
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. So should our kids have to wear helmets on other unsafe equipment like trampolines and playgrounds too?
Someone get out the big pen -- it's law-signing time! 
