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"ProKids" Policy - 2/20/2009 3:12:30 PM
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crankius
Posts: 3755
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Watch this video to see a pastor introduce the new "prokids" policy at his church.
What do you think of this policy?
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RE: "ProKids" Policy - 2/20/2009 3:19:59 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4170
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Here is my response from the other thread. I hope I'm not spamming to put it in both places.
quote:
I watched the whole video. I am not a parent. I find it completely asinine that children of any age would not be welcome in the sanctuary or "war zone" or whatever descriptive phrase you want to use for a room in your church building.
There are many reasons for putting a child in a nursery or Sunday school or children's program at your church. I personally think most kids would benefit from some exposure to those things, just because it's fun and it gives them some room and opportunity to run around and it puts them in a position to make friends with other kids from their church. For new parents, letting a nursery worker rock the baby for an hour or so might even mean a welcome respite. None of the good reasons for utilizing children's programs should override a parent's decision--or a child's right--to have kids worship with the body of believers. Ever.
After my nearly 40 years of attending church, I have never witnessed a parent who didn't take a disruptive baby or child out of the sanctuary during a service. If a child is repeatedly disruptive and the parents seem unwilling or unable to handle the problem then yes, I would expect an elder or some church worker to gently ask the parents to make arrangements for their kid, whether that means sitting with them in the cry room or sending them to the nursery or kids program.
But I am absolutely APPALLED at the idea that a church would ban children of an certain age group from their sanctuary. If I attended that church, I wouldn't any longer.
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RE: "ProKids" Policy - 2/20/2009 3:30:25 PM
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kohls356
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It makes me wonder just what is going on in that church where children are allowed to run up and down the aisles. Sounds like there were some issues going on but I don't think this is the answer. I do agree that children can and are a disruption in church at times and I have sat through a few services where the parents let their baby cry or their toddler talk and laugh loudly and would not take them out. However, I do not agree with that policy at all. If I were visitor and I was told I could not bring my baby into the service because they were older than 12 weeks I would have to turn around and walk away. I did put my children in the nursery but we went to a small church where everyone knows each other and I knew the workers. I would not be comfortable leaving my baby in a nursery with people I did not know the first few times I was at a church.
I have other thoughts about it but just can't seem to put them in words because I just think this action is too extreme.
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RE: "ProKids" Policy - 2/20/2009 3:32:25 PM
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BlessedMamaofmany
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shameful. Simply shameful that children are viewed as little burdens to be packed away while their parents focus on 'more important' things.
_____________________________
Atheism: The belief that there was nothing, nothing happened to nothing, then nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything, then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itself into self-replicating bits that then turned into dinosaurs
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RE: "ProKids" Policy - 2/20/2009 3:59:56 PM
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garsyt
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The first time I entered a church and they told me that I could NOT bring my child with me to the service would be followed by the LAST time I ever entered that church.
The PROBLEM is that the parents of the children that are running up and down the aisles and the children that are being allowed to act obnoxiously are not being taught or told that THEIR children are being a distraction. Instead of approaching those SPECIFIC families and helping them through some easily solved parenting issues - they are creating an environment where families will not be allowed to worship as a family.
Now when we attend a new church - often times my children will want to go off to the children's ministries, BUT there are times when my children would rather stay with me, especially when they were little. There were times when I insisted that my youngest ds stayed with me because of medical issues (NOT SICKNESS) required that my child be watched carefully for any and all signs of allergic reactions.
This would not be a church for me or my family.
Garsy
_____________________________
My Blog: www.moredayslikethisplease.wordpress.com
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RE: "ProKids" Policy - 2/20/2009 4:36:04 PM
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zoebob
Posts: 7962
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It was said that if you want to keep your kids with you, you could go to the family room off to the side and watch the church on TV. Also, this policy doesn't apply to visitors.
That being said....I still think it's terrible.
_____________________________
L-R: DD1, Ellies DS2, DD2, Ellies DS1
L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
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RE: "ProKids" Policy - 2/20/2009 4:39:09 PM
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Memaw.
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I can understand where this man is coming from, but I don't agree with him.
If there is an issue with children running up and down the aisles and crying babies, then that needs to be dealt with individually, and not an across the board "no children" policy.
I was especially turned off by this one statement.
(Paraphrased by me)
What if you made it to Heaven and found out that someone didn't make it because of your child?
Whoa Nellie!
What a load of guilt this man is trying to heap on his congregation!
Sure it is hard to concentrate on worship with crying children and kids standing up waving and talking, but I think God is a whole lot bigger than those problems and is able to reach anyone, regardless of whether a 2 yr old is clamoring in the seat in front of them or not.
_____________________________
If you don't believe King Jesus and his saints will be riding white horses when he returns to the earth, then you can just walk and I will ride.
John G. Hall
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RE: "ProKids" Policy - 2/20/2009 4:40:22 PM
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mamajennleigh
Posts: 980
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From: Fuquay-Varina, NC
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quote:
[they are creating an environment where families will not be allowed to worship as a family.
I completely agree with this - I would not return to a church that did not allow me to make that decision as a parent. It sounds like they have some families that they need to deal with, but this is just ridiculous.
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We may not have arrived, but Praise the Lord we've set sail!
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RE: "ProKids" Policy - 2/20/2009 4:45:19 PM
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PrincessDonna
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So kids' souls don't matter? Yikes. Kids can't be touched and can't make eternal decisions during church? Wow...
Not a church I would go to. Nope. I would run.
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RE: "ProKids" Policy - 2/20/2009 4:45:38 PM
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bolt.
Posts: 1759
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The 'pastor' said, "It's all about reaching people and connecting them to God... Souls hang in the balance."
But clearly, children are not 'people' to him.
If a 'church' is not a relevant environment for small children, then it is not a relevant environment at all. The single most powerful way to draw children towards God and have them grow up in him is for them to see their parents in authentic worship of the Living Lord of their lives. There is no other way 'relevant' way to reach them. The child's soul is hanging in the balance.
Nobody comes to Church thinking people like to watch their child (who is he kidding?) But seeing that God loves and accepts kids can help the supposedly important decision making adults see His compassion in a new light. They are not a distraction, they are yet another expression of God's deep and abiding love within the family of His Church.
If parents need support in helping their kids meet expectations that are age-appropriate as well as considerate of others, that's fair enough. Wild behaviour and inconsiderately prolonged screaming etc. should be worked out, not excluded point-blank.
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RE: "ProKids" Policy - 2/20/2009 5:04:38 PM
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garsyt
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My suggestion to this church -
IF there are folks that are having issues with children in church - THEN have a separate service just for those wanting worship with no children around. Apparently they have several services. How about a service that caters TO families? Not one where children are allowed to run around and cause problems but one where children are encouraged to worship WITH their parents and other adults and not excluded, where parenting is expected and behavior problems are not tolerated.
blessings,
Garsy
_____________________________
My Blog: www.moredayslikethisplease.wordpress.com
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RE: "ProKids" Policy - 2/21/2009 9:40:36 AM
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Karaboo2
Posts: 2002
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Did anyone notice the number of times that pastor made sure the congregation was still "lovin'" him? And what about all the people who didn't get saved because they were so shocked that kids were banned from the sanctuary that they hardened themselves to whatever this pastor was saying?
There is one lady in our church who has horrible anxiety ... and young children (under 2) actually help calm her down. Frequently she'll ask if she can hold Caleb, sit with Thomas, etc. during the service. Our church doesn't have anywhere else to watch or hear the service. It's because of children that this lady is able to sit in the church ... without the kids, she'd be frantic out in the hallway (or just stay at home). How would she be reached if kids weren't welcome?
_____________________________
Kara
Tea Drinkers Anonymous
<-- Future Consumer of Steeped Tea from TH's
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RE: "ProKids" Policy - 2/21/2009 2:27:38 PM
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sen10tious
Posts: 233
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Well, if he thinks kids don't belong in a war zone, then I suppose they don't let their kids go to public school, little league ballgames, or shopping malls on sale day either Oops! Sorry, wrong thread. Let me try again…
Well, if he thinks kids don't belong in a war zone, he has a point, but why is he making a worship service his front line? Families ought to be encouraged to "enter His gates with thanksgiving and His courts with praise." Notice that the praise, thanksgiving, and worship is happening INSIDE the courtyard, not outside on the battlements and bulwarks. The inner courtyard of worship ought to be one of the safest places there is.
Maybe someone can give this befuddled pastor a castle map.
_____________________________
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RE: "ProKids" Policy - 2/21/2009 3:24:56 PM
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garsyt
Posts: 1742
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I got to thinking on this this morning.
Okay - so they have the family room where families with young children can worship.
But that is actually to the detriment of some children.
IF my children are quiet, mindful of those around them, and attentive to the service - then I see NO reason that they should not be a part of the "regular" congregation if they so choose or if I choose.
I'm thinking instead of helping those parents that need the obvious assistance of a good parenting class or two or three or maybe just a good mentoring program - the church just decided to make a blanket rule that in the end will not do the church any good at all.
Children are NOT the church of tomorrow. They are the Church TODAY!
Blessings,
Garsy
_____________________________
My Blog: www.moredayslikethisplease.wordpress.com
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RE: "ProKids" Policy - 2/21/2009 3:46:45 PM
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zoebob
Posts: 7962
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: land of limbo
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quote:
Children are NOT the church of tomorrow. They are the Church TODAY!
Amen!!
_____________________________
L-R: DD1, Ellies DS2, DD2, Ellies DS1
L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
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RE: "ProKids" Policy - 2/21/2009 4:24:32 PM
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csl7037
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I finally got around to watching the video linked and I'm shocked that I'm going to be the lone voice here (so far). None of what he said or the policy he wants to implement is that big of a deal. IMO, it's being blown out of proportion here and being looked at only from one perspective - parents with absolutely adorable (I'm sure) children. I've got several thoughts; let's see if I can keep them straight...
quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
I didn't watch the whole video, but from what you guys are saying this church isn't gonna grow very much, imo. I'm thinking house churches are looking better and better these days. 
Well, they're running FIVE services! I don't think growth is a problem. With five services I can infer one of two things - they're doing a really great job of tickling people's ears OR God is moving there. I really have no idea which, could be either, so I wont make assumptions. But, either way, growth isn't a problem here. It's the logistical complications of growth that they're grappling with. This isn't the small town 200 year old Baptist church having a problem with a couple of distracting kids - this is obviously a HUGE church. If even a small percentage of people bring in their small kids, and if even a tiny percentage of those are disruptive - you could throw 1 Cor 14:40 right out the window.
quote:
ORIGINAL: BlessedMamaofmany
what about those who's children are saved at a young age? Like my 6yo...she sits in adult church...we are working on getting her to really listen and absorb, but still..isn't she considered a 'person' now (that was in jest...well not too much jest  )
I find this church's attitude simply shameful. There's just no other way to put it. And the guilt of 'someone not making it because of my child'...not only is that stupid theology, it's sickening.
Your child might be a remarkable young lady but this is unrealistic, IMO. My kids were saved young (6 and 7 years old) - in children's church! In our old church, I enjoyed keeping them in worship with us sometimes but there's nothing in the teaching or sermon in "big church" that is in any way relevant or even makes sense to an elementary (or even middle) school aged child - even some things downright inappropriate or confusing could certainly come up. In our new church, the kids have their own amazing worship service and I have no idea why anyone would even want to keep a kid in "big" church.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sen10tious
Well, if he thinks kids don't belong in a war zone, then I suppose they don't let their kids go to public school, little league ballgames, or shopping malls on sale day either Oops! Sorry, wrong thread. Let me try again…
Well, if he thinks kids don't belong in a war zone, he has a point, but why is he making a worship service his front line? Families ought to be encouraged to "enter His gates with thanksgiving and His courts with praise." Notice that the praise, thanksgiving, and worship is happening INSIDE the courtyard, not outside on the battlements and bulwarks. The inner courtyard of worship ought to be one of the safest places there is.
Maybe someone can give this befuddled pastor a castle map.
This is either completely insincere or blind. This has nothing to do with what he means by warzone and I'm sure you probably know that. We do not worship in Jewish Temples with "inner courts". We, as Christians, come boldly before the Throne of God to freely worship him in spirit and in Truth in that place - spiritually. In a growing church, a church welcoming and attracting unsaved, unchurched people by the thousands, you know full well (or should) there will be intense spiritual warfare going on. Some churches, I know, want no part of that. Apparently this one is willing to step into that to reach these people - which is why those people are there.
Did anyone look beyond the video to some of the rest of this website? They have an extensive children's ministry. They have made appropriate accommodation to reach those children on their level. The sanctuary should be reserved for the business of equipping the saints and reaching those visiting with the life changing Word of God. It's not a show for the children to enjoy. It's not a parenting opportunity to teach your child to behave in an adult environment (which is how it was in my church growing up), it's serious Kingdom business being done in those service times.
On a purely personal sidenote of mine (my neck's already out there so why not), IMO, there's nothing more unfair to a child than to be by mom's side all the time! Why in the world would anyone make a child sit in a big grown up church service that has absolutely nothing for them? Moms gotta let go sometimes! But that's just a personal pet peeve, as I said, it's completely separate from what this Pastor is saying.
The important thing is that this church seems pretty serious to me about reaching their surrounding communities and seeing lives changed and souls brought into the Kingdom. If this makes things a little inconvenient to people who'd rather go and camp out in their comfy seats and let their kids color and play and dance around, then maybe this isn't the church for those people. If it's just about me and my kids and my perogative to coddle them as I see fit, or just do things my own way, maybe I should be going down the road. Frankly, as a parent, those worship times are serious business for me as well. A parent can't "enter in" with a three year old wiggling and bopping around anyway. I go into my church's corporate worship times to do serious business with God and to see Him move in me and in the hearts and lives of people around me - maybe that's the intercessor in me but I'm way to busy to be dealing with my kids during that time. I'm not there to show off dd's cute new dress. I need to be doing what I am there to do and she needs to be sitting under the children's minister who's prayed and planned all week to minister to her little heart on her level.
I truly don't understand the uproar here.
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RE: "ProKids" Policy - 2/21/2009 4:38:01 PM
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CarlaJames
Posts: 19
Joined: 5/30/2005
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Okay so this is my church...
I'm not interested in going on and on with you people as in the former thread.
Just want you to know...
For the lady with the 6 yr old that has been saved. There would be no problem with her coming in there. It's only for 12 weeks to preschool. If you had watched the video, you would know that.
For those who said this church would not grow....it has grown so big we've had to add two more services for a total of 5. We are growing each weekend.
This rule only applies to members and regular attendees. BUT it's not like there is someone at the door asking if you are a visitor or not and it's so big you don't know who is and who isn't visiting.
For the one who said "wonder how this church is doing now" it's doing just fine. No problems so far. It has not had ANY effect whatsover.
For those who said "doesn't the souls of children matter" are you kidding me? They ARE learning in the child care it's not like they are outside on the monkey bars playing.
I don't understand what the big deal is about having your children in an enviorment they can learn in. What are they getting out of being in the big service? They need to learn on their level. I think its' wonderful for them to get lessons they can understand.
This is a wonderful church. EVERYONE I have ever brought kept coming back. Even those who said they'd never go to church again. Please stop saying mean things about my Pastor. He's an awesome man of God.
But whatever...you think nothing about dropping your kid off at day care for 40 hrs a week or drop them off with a sitter so you can "take a break" but when you are asked to put them in the nursery for ONE hour so you can give your FULL attention to the Lord and they can learn about Him on their level you freak out....I don't understand.
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RE: "ProKids" Policy - 2/21/2009 4:39:57 PM
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zoebob
Posts: 7962
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: land of limbo
Status: online
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quote:
Your child might be a remarkable young lady but this is unrealistic, IMO. My kids were saved young (6 and 7 years old) - in children's church! In our old church, I enjoyed keeping them in worship with us sometimes but there's nothing in the teaching or sermon in "big church" that is in any way relevant or even makes sense to an elementary (or even middle) school aged child - even some things downright inappropriate or confusing could certainly come up. In our new church, the kids have their own amazing worship service and I have no idea why anyone would even want to keep a kid in "big" church.
I find this totally shocking. My kids attend the regular service (after having spent an hour in age appropriate Sunday School) and I've never seen anything happen in a church service that is inappropriate for children and my kids have certainly learned a lot being in church.
We want to keep our kids in church with us because the church service should be a time of cooperate worship with the whole family of Christ and our children are part of that. My children at 6 and 7 have listened to the sermon well enough to ask meaningful questions about the sermon on the way home.
ETA: It's not about parents not being able to let go of their kids either. I think for most of us it comes down to two things: 1. being told that children are not allowed in the service and 2. that children being in the service would send someone to hell.
_____________________________
L-R: DD1, Ellies DS2, DD2, Ellies DS1
L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
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RE: "ProKids" Policy - 2/21/2009 4:44:22 PM
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CarlaJames
Posts: 19
Joined: 5/30/2005
Status: offline
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csl7037.......
Thank you so much. As I stated before this is MY church. I posted the video in another forum and it took it off topic so someone deleted all the posts and someone else started it back up over here.
I'm not real good with words which is why it took me this long to post anything in here, but thank you again. You said it like I WANTED to say it.
I'm glad to see someone out there took the time to browse the rest of the site and find out on their own what a wondeful church this is.
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RE: "ProKids" Policy - 2/21/2009 4:45:19 PM
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zoebob
Posts: 7962
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: land of limbo
Status: online
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I did browse the site and still have a problem with what they are doing.
_____________________________
L-R: DD1, Ellies DS2, DD2, Ellies DS1
L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
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