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Need Help Understanding Christianity - 2/20/2009 10:59:29 PM
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ZhugeLiang565
Posts: 6
Joined: 2/20/2009
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I hardly know anything about Christianity, but I'm trying to discover more about it. I have alot of questions... a lot. Most of these are going to need clarification, and thus, we'll probably see a series of running questions.
Here is the first of my questions, which I'm sure will lead into others:
According to Christianity....
What is good?
What is evil?
What constitutes a good person, and what constitutes an evil person?
Are the absolute evils in this world? In other words, are there people who are undeniably evil, no matter the circumstance? Are the people who are undeniably good?
Before we proceed with this discussion, I want to keep my intentions clear.
First, I want everyone to know that I am asking this for the sole reason that I want to understand how Christians see the world. I am not asking this for any other purpose, like for example, the purpose of hearing something that I can argue with, or finding something that I can "prove wrong". I would never want to jeapordize people's own values, and in any case, any attempt would be futile and only breed intolerance. My aim here is purely objective and for the sake of my own learning and knowledge to further my understanding of the phenomenon of God, and my ultimate goal is to obtain a better understanding of Christianity. My goal is NOT to promote a belief of mine or start an argument. I encourage everyone to be open, and trust that I'm not going to add to anyone's thoughts, or try to subtract from them. The reason I give this caveat is because that, in the past when I've tried to do this, I have been mistaken for someone who is trying to start a riot or bring down people's values. This is strictly due to misinterpretation--which may not be surprising, given my incessant nature to ask questions and the ambiguity of my own values, which may lead to the unjust labeling of a "subverter" upon me. My incessant questions may be blunt, and thus give rise to the suspicion that my intentions are negative, but they are not. These questions are only for the sake of clarification, and any interpretation of malice intent would only arise due to misunderstanding. I'm not here to judge, just perceive. I genuinely want to KNOW how Christians see things, that is my sole motive. Nothing to debase anything or anyone. Many of my dear friends are Christians, and I love them very much, and would never do anything to debase their values. That would debase their identities, and thus, everything I love about them. I would never do that. I wish to uphold the sanctity of the values of all Christians, including everyone here on this board. I respect them very much. I need to say this because the misinterpretation of my intentions has heretofore impeded the path to the answers of my questions. So, I encourage everyone here to be open.
This came from a series of thought processes from began when I was reading my psychology textbook. I'm doing this because I want to understand people, and potentially seek to understand the phenomenon of God in everyday lives. I guess you could say I'm doing this as part of my own studies in psychology. I plan to earn a Ph.D and become a doctor in clinical psychology. I want to become a therapist because I want to help people. But to do that, I have to understand people. I want to understand. Christians are a large majority of the population, and I hardly understand them. But I want to. I am seeking answers here, not trying to purport my own. That's because I'll consent that I don't really know anything.
So yes, to repeat the questions....
According to Christianity....
What is good?
What is evil?
What constitutes a good person, and what constitutes an evil person?
Are the absolute evils in this world? In other words, are there people who are undeniably evil, no matter the circumstance? Are the people who are undeniably good?
Let's discuss!
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RE: Need Help Understanding Christianity - 2/20/2009 11:17:31 PM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 10985
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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Moving from The Bible to Christian Doctrine.
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RE: Need Help Understanding Christianity - 2/21/2009 10:08:46 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 842
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ZhugeLiang565
According to Christianity....
What is good?
What is evil?
What constitutes a good person, and what constitutes an evil person?
From a purely behavioral point of view, evil people are controlled by the natural desires of the body and seek to fulfill those desires even at the expense of someone else's well-being. Good people seek to control and govern their behaviors in the interest of how it may affect them and others around them.
To use an obvious and easy to understand illustration, an evil person would consider murdering someone to feed his hunger. A good person in the same circumstance would consider dying of hunger themselves before harming another person to feed his hunger.
quote:
ORIGINAL: ZhugeLiang565
...Are the absolute evils in this world? In other words, are there people who are undeniably evil, no matter the circumstance? Are the people who are undeniably good?
In general, yes. The Bible speaks of the desires within a man. Good people desire to do good and have their minds set on how to do that. Evil people have their minds set on evil and how they can fulfill those desires. But that doesn't mean the desires within a person acutally get fulfilled. And I mean this more in the life of the christian who has a transformed heart by the Holy Spirit, and as a result has the willingness and desire to do good, but who is hindered from doing so by fear or lack of knowledge. And many evil people don't act on their evil desires because of the simple fact they may get caught and go to jail, or ruin their marriage. Or they just find it easy at the moment to do good because it may benefit some selfish desire of their's in the long run, or it costs them nothing to do so.
To whatever extent a person is controlled by the desires of the body is the extent to which they will be seen as a generally good person, or a generally evil person. As long as we are in these bodies we will never be undeniably completely good or evil. In the christian, God's work through the Holy Spirit is to continually transform them into a good person in all circumstances, even to the point of death. In an evil person the work of the flesh is constantly at work in them to defend their own well-being even to the point of death of another.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Need Help Understanding Christianity - 2/21/2009 2:29:16 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1712
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Welcome ZhugeLiang:
Thanks for ansking these questions, since they are quite relevant to one who is not a Christian.
quote:
According to Christianity....
What is good?
At the outset, any expression of the Christian point of view is not based upon "Christianity" but upon Christ Himself.
How did Christ define "good" and "evil" is the only thing that matters, and in order to obtain those definitions, we must turn to Scripture -- the Holy Bible.
Christ said "There is none good, but one, and that is God". So goodness is the character of God Himself, and encompasses His absolute perfection, righteousness, and holiness. That is the only standard by which God measures goodness.
quote:
What is evil?
Evil is that which originates from Satan, and is now found within the soul of every human being because of the fact that humanity is a sinful race ever since the first man -- Adam -- disobeyed God and listened to Satan.
Christ described evil as follows (Mark 7:20-23):
"And He said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thooughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: all these evil things come from within, and defile the man".
quote:
What constitutes a good person, and what constitutes an evil person?
A good person shows the "fruit of the Spirit" in his life, and the evil person does "the works of the flesh". This is described in Galatians 5:16-26.
quote:
Are the absolute evils in this world?
Absolutely. Since God is absolute in every respect, there are absolutes in this universe.
quote:
In other words, are there people who are undeniably evil, no matter the circumstance? Are the people who are undeniably good?
Yes there are. Those controlled by Satan can be undeniably evil, while those controlled by the Holy Spirit can be undeniably good.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Need Help Understanding Christianity - 2/21/2009 4:08:15 PM
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navyblueret
Posts: 1970
Joined: 11/29/2008
From: S/W Nebraska
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ZhugeLiang565, Shalom.
For what it is worth, I authored an answer, explaining as best I could, and when I clicked on the 'send,' well, after a short time, received a message saying the attempt failed. To insure the failure, my reply was warped into a black-hole, and will never be seen again. Being an OFU, this attempt will be much shorter.
IMO: For you to understand the Christian answer to your questions, you should, as a minimum, read the Book of John, for an understanding of who it is that we worship. With that background, you will be more successful in absorbing the intangible of Faith. I presume that your study has already convinced you of the numerous variations in the psyche. Christianity is much like that, and without a background basis, on which to function, progress is almost an impossibility.
Ezra says well, but may be a bit hazy for one not versed in the Bible. Please consider my paraphrase of what I see as being Christian, and being 'good,' or 'bad.'
Being Christian is, being worthy of eternal life, and close association with our God, with reward no mortal mind can comprehend, nor imagine.
Being 'good,' is really not much more than living a life, as did our Messiah: full of 'love' (always key, and of first consideration) for others, being charitable, considerate, in accordance to God's laws, and placing 'self' as a 'last consideration.' Considering that no mortal person can accomplish this feat alone, we must rely upon the strengthening of our resolve, and focus in the Messiah, Jesus. To maliciously injure another, in any manor, is repugnant to a Christian.
Being 'evil,' is truly the reverse of being 'good.' Evil people focus on 'self' as being the only consideration for existing. Some, evil people, actually enjoy seeking people to harm, physically, mentally, culturally, and socially, in any manor available, just to be able to do so, and invoke fear.
Absolute Evil, or Good, is more difficult. Jesus personifies absolute Good, and Satan the Evil. Other than them, I do not believe any mortal person could be called 'Absolute' evil, or good. I defer to others who might better define and answer that portion of your question.
Perhaps this may be of some assistance.
In Messiah, His Shalom, and truth. Arley
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: Need Help Understanding Christianity - 2/21/2009 4:28:29 PM
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ZhugeLiang565
Posts: 6
Joined: 2/20/2009
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Wow, thank you everyone for your encouraging and insightful responses. Your gentleness and openness are both very respectful and appreciated!
Since I got a lot of follow up answers, I had a lot to think about. Some things still seem a little unclear, so some things need more explaining in order for me to understand.... A recurring theme I have noted in these answers is the juxtaposition between those who have "The Spirit" and those who do not (i.e. Christians and non-Christians). I like everyone's decision to use this comparison, for it essentially hits the heart of my attempt to understand those who follow Christ and what sets them apart from those who do not. By discovering the difference, I can discover what makes them unique, and thus, understand the people and the faith itself. Thus, most the following questions will pertain to the differences between Christians and non-Christians.
Before I begin with my questions, I want to highlight and summarize the things above that led much of my thoughts, and so that we're all clear what I'm basing my questions off of.
quote:
(from SpongeBlog)
"Good people desire to do good and have their minds set on how to do that. Evil people have their minds set on evil and how they can fulfill those desires."...
And I mean this more in the life of the christian who has a transformed heart by the Holy Spirit, and as a result has the willingness and desire to do good, but who is hindered from doing so by fear or lack of knowledge.
First off, I love your UserName!! haha it's great... anyhoo, questions!
Does a person who does not have the holy spirit have a "willingness and desire" to good things?
Do you think that , like the life of a Christian, non Christians may also be hindered from fear of lack of knowledge?
Is there anyone that you would say that does NOT have a desire to good while being hindered from doing so by fear or lack of knowledge?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
quote:
(From Ezra)
"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thooughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: all these evil things come from within, and defile the man". ...
A good person shows the "fruit of the Spirit" in his life, and the evil person does "the works of the flesh". This is described in Galatians 5:16-26. ...
Since God is absolute in every respect, there are absolutes in this universe. Those controlled by Satan can be undeniably evil, while those controlled by the Holy Spirit can be undeniably good.
I read up on Galatians 5:16-26 .... and it had the title "Walk by the Spirit." Going by the previous definition of how you defined good and evil, the following paragraph is what I have concluded from your statements. If there is anything that I have concluded here that you do not agree with or want to edit, by all means do so.
So in summary, those controlled by Satan can be undeniably evil, while those controlled by the Holy Spirit can be undeniably good. Thus, people who are controlled by Satan--who is found in the soul of every man--are evil, and thus, seek to gratify the works of the flesh (i.e. lust, fornication, adultery, deceit, murder, etc.). However people who are controlled by the Holy Spirit, show the "Fruit of the Spirit". And according to Galatains 5:22, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, etc.
If my above paraphrasing is correct, my questions are:
First, does the Holy Spirit exist within the heart of everyone else, just like Satan does?
Do you think that when these evil people seek to gratify the works of the flesh, that they are conscious of the fact that they are committing evil?
Can Fruits of the Spirit--love, compassion, kindness, self control--- come out of people who do not walk with the Spirit?
Are there times when good people--people who are undeniably controlled by the Spirit-- take action to gratify the works of the flesh (adultery, murder, etc.)? Can people "walk by the Spirit" (i.e. be non-Christian) and not exhibit the Fruit of the Spirit?
If so, and there are people whom you consider good in this world that do or have done "evil" things, were they conscious of the fact that it was evil while they did it? Does that make them evil for doing it anyway? Or are they still good?
How do we know if someone is controlled by the Holy Spirit? How do we know if someone is controlled by Satan?
Is it possible for someone to say they are controlled by the Holy Spirit, but they really aren't? Is it possible for someone to both say and THINK they are controlled by the Holy Spirit, and they are not?
quote:
(From Ezra)
How did Christ define "good" and "evil" is the only thing that matters, and in order to obtain those definitions, we must turn to Scripture -- the Holy Bible.
Why is Christ's definition the only one that matters? Is there anyone else in the history of man that has displayed a wise or astute perception of good and evil? Like, for example, Dr. Martin Luther King, Siddhartha Gautama, Mahatma Ghandi, Muhammad Abduliah, or Abraham Lincoln?
Why do you turn to the Holy Bible? What is the Bible exactly? Do you turn to any other books in the world to get a better understanding of good and evil?
Thanks again everyone.... I like the responses and I'm looking forward for some more things to think about.
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RE: Need Help Understanding Christianity - 2/21/2009 4:44:50 PM
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ZhugeLiang565
Posts: 6
Joined: 2/20/2009
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ah, navybluerat, I just got your message after you posted! Sorry I missed it.
Before I begin, I want to note that your humility and modesty in regards your own wisdom (and the pursuit of it as well) is very admirable. Your humility and awareness will clearly earn you more and more wisdom over the years.
On a personal note, I really like your definition of "good": putting the "self" as "last consideration". That sings in great harmony with my own values (which for the purposes of this forum, I have chosen to keep ambiguous).
quote:
Considering that no mortal person can accomplish this feat alone, we must rely upon the strengthening of our resolve, and focus in the Messiah, Jesus. To maliciously injure another, in any manor, is repugnant to a Christian.
My questions to you sir, are...
Is there any way for you or for anyone to find strength or resolve to accomplish this feat, other than focusing on Jesus, the Messiah? Like for example, somebody else in this world?
Can Christians still sometimes focus in on the "self"?
Is it okay to focus on the self at times?
Would focusing in on one's relationship with another be focusing in one's self?
Are there times where it is okay for a Christian to defend the "self", even if it involves doing harm to another?
And as a note, I have read the four gospels a couple of times before, including the gospel of John. Good stuff. Sorry your original post had to disappear! That's the worst...
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RE: Need Help Understanding Christianity - 2/21/2009 6:23:59 PM
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navyblueret
Posts: 1970
Joined: 11/29/2008
From: S/W Nebraska
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ZhugeLiang565, Shalom, again.
Thank you for your compliments for words I feel my Boss gives me to say.
You asked Ezra a question, that if I may, I would also like to address: "Does a person who does not have the holy spirit have a "willingness and desire" to good things? "
Absolutely, but the non-Christian would probably call the motivation 'conscience,' where the Christian would use 'Spirit.' There is, however, a huge difference, I believe. The conscience can be 'changed,' to be more, or less heard by the psyche, or even turned on or off, at will. Conscience is determined by upbringing, and willingness to follow. On the other hand, the Holy Spirit is a force of guidance that drives, and motivates the individual to continually strive to obtain the perfection the Spirit presents as a goal to achieve. The Spirit does not sleep, nor can He be turned on or off by the person He lives within. I guess a person could call the Spirit a 'conscience' being, alive, who guides, teaches, and comforts ( the difference between the two, with conscience being a bicycle, and the Spirit an Intergalactic spaceship).
Now, to your questions to me:
Is there any way for you or for anyone to find strength or resolve to accomplish this feat, other than focusing on Jesus, the Messiah? Like for example, somebody else in this world?
Of course. Many, attain high levels of conscience, and were/are very worthy of emulation, but only the Spirit of Christ Jesus, Emanuel, prepares us for, and teaches us the culture of God. Good people who do not have the Christ, in their heart, does not qualify for eternal presence with, and be a part of, Jesus, the Christ. Since you have read the Gospels, I need not expound in greater depth, unless you inquire.
Can Christians still sometimes focus in on the "self"?
Is it okay to focus on the self at times?
Of course. When I say put self last, I did not intend meaning self as non-existent. The primary rule with 'self,' is that one should do not serve self when it has negative affect upon another, as to cause harm.
Would focusing in on one's relationship with another be focusing in one's self?
Your question is somewhat nebulous, but within the confines of marriage, between one man and one woman, I will answer. Focusing on one's relationship with another must have focus on 'self,' but in a ratio slightly different than is socially acceptable in today's high speed world. One must focus on spouse with the same intensity as with God, more focused than with children, or friends. To be successful in marriage, the formula need be three units toward partner, and no more than one toward self. The less 'self,' but greater than zero, involved in the marriage, as in Faith to God, the less chance there is for failure.
This philosophy I formed from Bible wisdom: Hope for the best, expect the worst, and find happiness in what is, keeps a person from ever feeling let-down.
Are there times where it is okay for a Christian to defend the "self", even if it involves doing harm to another?
NO. Now, I must explain, and water down my emphatic. This one came after long, hard, pondering, especially after having been a 'war-horse' for many years. What I espouse is what I feel God wants me to feel, and follow: Myself, I will try very hard not to defend from evil doers. I will, to the best of my OFU ability defend the lives of my brothers and sisters in God, my fellow countrymen, and any other living person in danger from the evil that runs rampant upon this earth. The worst evil can do is kill my body, and allow me to 'graduate' home earlier than if I just laid around (pun). If every person on earth had the rule I have been given, God would no longer need to close out this age with the Judgment, and Wrath Prophesied, in His word. I will leave my comments off here, as I am trying to be helpful, not preachifying.
Understand, please, that this question I have not done proper justice to with my response, but is the best I have available at the moment. I pray I have helped somewhat.
In Messiah, His Shalom, and Pleasure. Arley
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: Need Help Understanding Christianity - 2/21/2009 7:25:55 PM
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JB25
Posts: 61
Joined: 2/18/2009
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Z-
Please note that in "Christianity" there is a VERY wide divergence of thought concerning literally every issue. While that may seem a bit surprising even puzzling, it is true and always has been (to the extent that people were violent in early councils and others, especially during the "Reformation", were murdered for their differing views often in most hideous ways - murdered both by Roman Catholics as well as so called "Protestants".
I am simply sharing this insight as you move forward with your question and inquiry so that you don't get too bogged down on any one response.
More than anything a Christian is someone who simply and fully submits theirself to the Lord Jesus Christ with all their heart, mind and soul. This requires honesty from your heart before God - rather than trying to understand the ideas of men.
BTW - evil is pretty easy - it is hurting peaceful human beings; likewise so is good - it is benefiting peaceful human beings (see Rom 13:8 - 10 - perfect summary)
8(H) Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for(I) the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9For the commandments,(J) "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this word:(K) "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore(L) love is the fulfilling of the law.
Best wishes in your pursuit.
JB
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RE: Need Help Understanding Christianity - 2/21/2009 9:00:10 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2937
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ZhugeLiang565
According to Christianity....
I hope you are not expecting to get one or even a few answers to your questions. There are a wide range of beliefs held by people who choose to call themselves christian. This why I do not take the name on myself nor would I be so bold as the speak on behalf of those who do.
quote:
What is good?
Yeshua himself told us that no one is good but Adonai. Therefore, I would define good is that which proceeds from Adonai.
quote:
What is evil?
This is the converse. That which opposes Adonai is evil.
quote:
What constitutes a good person, and what constitutes an evil person?
It follows that any person who does not oppose Adonai in any way is good. That is why Yeshua asks, "Why do you call me good, only Adonai is good?" Not that Yeshua was not good, He was just pointing out that those who were talking to him should have known that when they called Him good they were equating Him with Adonai. An evil person is one who opposes Adonai. It could be argued that we are all evil to some extent because we all have opposed Adonai to some degree, but I do not think that is what you mean.
quote:
Are the absolute evils in this world? In other words, are there people who are undeniably evil, no matter the circumstance?
There probably are but I do not believe it is our place to make that judgement. We are to look at ones words and actions, make judgements regarding those and take precautions to protect ourselves and others from dangerious words and actions.
quote:
Are the people who are undeniably good?
Along with my prior reference to Yeshua, Isaiah tells us that "none is good, no not one." So, apart for Yeshua, who I believe is Adonai, there is no one who is absolutely good.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Need Help Understanding Christianity - 2/21/2009 9:10:20 PM
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navyblueret
Posts: 1970
Joined: 11/29/2008
From: S/W Nebraska
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ZhugeLiang565, Shalom.
I must apologize for a misstatement I made above. I revisited, prayerfully, my statement about defending myself, and must confess I lied, thinking I was being honest. I would defend my life by taking life, but only if I felt that by allowing someone to take mine, they would be free to go on, and harm someone else. Then, I must admit, I would be forced to take up my old 'sword,' and destroy as many as my old bones would allow me, before graduating to my Lord. (edited out by //as// as inapropriate. My apologies to all). Enough said.
In Messiah, His Shalom. Arley
< Message edited by navyblueret -- 2/23/2009 10:42:04 AM >
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: Need Help Understanding Christianity - 2/22/2009 2:14:25 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1712
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ZhugeLiang565
quote:
So in summary, those controlled by Satan can be undeniably evil, while those controlled by the Holy Spirit can be undeniably good. Thus, people who are controlled by Satan--who is found in the soul of every man--are evil, and thus, seek to gratify the works of the flesh (i.e. lust, fornication, adultery, deceit, murder, etc.). However people who are controlled by the Holy Spirit, show the "Fruit of the Spirit". And according to Galatains 5:22, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, etc.
Zhuge:
You have summarized this well, other than Satan is not found in the soul of every man, just as the Holy Spirit is not found in the soul of every man.
quote:
If my above paraphrasing is correct, my questions are:
First, does the Holy Spirit exist within the heart of everyone else, just like Satan does?
The Holy Spirit (or God the Holy Spirit) lives within the hearts of those who have received the gift of the Holy Spirit by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and turning from their sins and idols.
However, Satan does not live within everyone who is evil, but entices or influences people to sin by presenting them with temptations (either himself or through his evil spirits). Since all human beings have desires, Satan works on those desires and causes people to sin. Sometimes he does take possession of individuals, and sometimes demons take possession of individuals also (but that is a separate subject).
quote:
Do you think that when these evil people seek to gratify the works of the flesh, that they are conscious of the fact that they are committing evil?
Yes and No. God has put within every human soul a conscience, therefore those who commit evil the first time know that they have violated their conscience. But when they continue to practice sin, they deaden their consciences and begin to love their sins.
quote:
Can Fruits of the Spirit--love, compassion, kindness, self control--- come out of people who do not walk with the Spirit?
No. That is why Christians are commanded to "walk in the Spirit" or give the Holy Spirit full control of their hearts and minds. This is a deliberate act of the will. The Christian must surrender his will to God constantly.
quote:
Are there times when good people--people who are undeniably controlled by the Spirit-- take action to gratify the works of the flesh (adultery, murder, etc.)?
Those who receive the gift of the Holy Spirit also receive the "new birth", which means that their spirits are alive and that they have a new nature which loves God and the things of God. At the same time, God does not eradicate their old sinful nature, but requires that by giving over control to the Holy Spirit, they will resist their old lusts and desires. We are commanded to "mortify the flesh" which is the same as putting to death the old nature.
However, it is quite possible for those who should be controlled by the Holy Spirit to allow the "flesh" (old nature) to take control and thereby commit sins which can be quite heinous. King David in the Old Testament is a good example. He was a man who loved God and the things of God, but one day he committed adultery and a few days later he committed murder. He did confess his sins and repent, but it cost him a great deal.
quote:
Can people "walk by the Spirit" (i.e. be non-Christian) and not exhibit the Fruit of the Spirit?
Those who have not received the new birth and become children of God cannot "walk by the Spirit", since they do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit. However, they can follow the dictates of their conscience and to that extent they can do right and do good. There are many non-Christians who can and will do the right thing, but that is not the same as the fruit of the Spirit (which is God working within them).
quote:
If so, and there are people whom you consider good in this world that do or have done "evil" things, were they conscious of the fact that it was evil while they did it? Does that make them evil for doing it anyway? Or are they still good?
Goodness can only be measured by the Divine standard, which is God's perfection. Therefore no matter how many good deeds a person does, they cannot be righteous in God's eyes. God tells us something very unflattering about our goodness -- "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags". This is in comparision to His own absolute righteousness. Most of our good deeds are tainted with selfishness, since we either want recognition or praise.
Coming back to your question, every Christian was once a sinner, and some were quite evil (such as the apostle Paul before he was converted). Paul, when he was Saul the persecutor, actually believed he was doing God a great service. So sinners can be self-deceived in thinking they are doing good while actually doing evil. BUt that does not absolve them from the sins they commit. Even Christians can commit sins, but by God's grace, He has already imputed (put to their account) the righteousness of Christ. Therefore they are "good" in God's sight. This is not a license to sin, since God deals with the sins of Christians severely if they do not confess and repent.
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How do we know if someone is controlled by the Holy Spirit? How do we know if someone is controlled by Satan?
By their fruits ye shall know them.
quote:
Is it possible for someone to say they are controlled by the Holy Spirit, but they really aren't?
Yes it is. That is why Christians are commanded to examine themselves daily, and shine the light of God's Word on their hearts daily. When we do so, God convicts us of our sins and brings us to repentance.
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Is it possible for someone to both say and THINK they are controlled by the Holy Spirit, and they are not?
It is possible, but sooner or later the Holy Spirit will expose their false thinking to themselves. Also, if Christians see their brother sinning and being self-deceived, it is their duty to speak to them about this so that they will deal with it.
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Why is Christ's definition the only one that matters?
Because the light of the glory of God is in the face of Jesus Christ. He is the Word of God, which means that He is the ultimate "declaration" of God to man. In His life, in His words, in His miracles, in His death, and in His resurrection, He has fully displayed God. He is Himself God the Son (the Son of God). Therefore His defintion in the only one which counts in this life and in eternity.
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Is there anyone else in the history of man that has displayed a wise or astute perception of good and evil? Like, for example, Dr. Martin Luther King, Siddhartha Gautama, Mahatma Ghandi, Muhammad Abduliah, or Abraham Lincoln?
All these are simply human beings, and all human beings are flawed -- we are all sinners. Christ is only only one who is fully God and fully sinless Man. Therefore there cannot be any comparision whatsoever.
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Why do you turn to the Holy Bible?
Because it is the Word of Life. The words of Christ are spirit and life. Every word is a word of God, though wirtten by prophets, evangelists, and apostles. This makes the Bible the infallible revelation of God to all men, and gives to us all the answers that we need for this life and the next.
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What is the Bible exactly? Do you turn to any other books in the world to get a better understanding of good and evil?
The Bible is a book of books, with 66 books written over a period of some 2,000 years. What makes the Bible unique is the fact that it claims to be, and has proven itself to be the Word of God. When you read the Bible, you are reading God's message to you, regardless to whomever else it is addressed. See 2 Timothy 3:15-17.
Therefore, we need not turn to any other book to get a better understanding of good and evil. However, to get a better understanding of the Bible itself, there are many helps such as concordances and commentaries. But there is no substitute for the living Word of God.
I trust this will give you a better insight into what God has revealed in His Word.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Need Help Understanding Christianity - 2/22/2009 10:45:41 PM
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ZhugeLiang565
Posts: 6
Joined: 2/20/2009
Status: offline
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Wow... so many awesome responses...
In order for me to proceed towards my own enlightenment, as well as asking the approrpriate follow-up questions, I need to think about all that's been said mindfully, and with patience. However, due to a busy busy week ahead of me (three tests and a paper), I am not in a flexible position to do so. So, I will get back to this when the time is best, as I'm sure I will after my last test on Friday. This will probably be the first thing I do.
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RE: Need Help Understanding Christianity - 2/23/2009 2:00:57 AM
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JB25
Posts: 61
Joined: 2/18/2009
Status: offline
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Take your time Z - trust me - nothing will happen fast - the church of Jesus Christ has been around for 2,000 years - it is not going anywhere - and these questions ultimately need to be answered by the Holy Spirit to your spirit.
The disciples can only provide humble input.
JB
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RE: Need Help Understanding Christianity - 3/4/2009 12:05:38 PM
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ZhugeLiang565
Posts: 6
Joined: 2/20/2009
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Phew, well I finally made it through a rough rough week of midterms! And although I'm not exactly finished with school work, I figure I have enough time to sit down and think about what's been posted and provide more questions.
Also, at the arrival of new material for thought, I have gone back over some of the previous words posted before my second post, and brought more questions. Some of them might have been similar in nature, and may be even perceived as someone repetitious, but to me, they each hold slight nuance due to the fact that they were based on the deeper thought that the answers provided.
And also, I've decided to dissect the questions according to each person, and let each person address his own. I am not trying to get a complete, unified "thought of man". For as JB25 wisely noted, there is a wide divergence of the thought of man. My goal is to take the thought of each person and work with it, thus discovering the common similarties and underlying themes. The uniting force--the essential doctrine and mindset that is ubiquitous among all Christian invidivuals--is what I'm aiming to discover. The differences in ideas/perspectives that are bound to occur should be inconsequential to the underlying themes.
For SpongeBob:
quote:
"From a purely behavioral point of view, evil people are controlled by the natural desires of the body and seek to fulfill those desires even at the expense of someone else's well-being. Good people seek to control and govern their behaviors in the interest of how it may affect them and others around them.
To use an obvious and easy to understand illustration, an evil person would consider murdering someone to feed his hunger. A good person in the same circumstance would consider dying of hunger themselves before harming another person to feed his hunger. "
Are their times when compromises must be made regarding which to help--ourselves or others? What if we cannot satisfy the needs of all individuals--ourselves and others? Have there circumstances where "good" people have had to make a decision that came to benefit themselves for the sake of others? Taking your example, what if the person was "evil"? Would it be just to take the food from them?
You speak of the desires with people, and mention that evil people seek to fulfill those desires. On the other hand, a good person recognizes that the desires cannot be fulfilled, and that this realization comes through the acceptance of the Holy Spirit which gives people the desire to do good--which they are ultimately hindered from doing out of being unable to grasp all knowledge, nor having the courage.
What desires exactly do you speak of? What differentiates the "desires" of the evil people, and "desire" to do good? Do the "desires" of evil people not originate out of the desire to do good? If so, where do those desires originate? Is this desire purely and always evil; and are they consciously seeking to do evil? Conversely does the desire to do good--but the incapability of being able to do so 100% of the time-- make on evil because they fall short? What is the dividing difference in the nature of the desires of "good" people and "evil" people?
You say that they are desires of the body... could you be more specific? When I think of desires of the body, I think of hunger, thirst, and sex--all of which we instinctively listen to and ultimately operate upon. Are these not the desires you speak of? Are good people free from these desires? Or am I under the wrong impression of these bodily desires?
You mention that evil people sometimes do good, but only for the purpose that it may fulfill a selfish desire in the long run, or that they might not get an earthly punishment, like going to jail. Do ALL evil people do "good" sometimes for the sake of avoiding some punishment? Take, for example, an Easterner who is practicing the Islamic religion. If he does something for the sake of upholding a doctrine of his religion--which doesn't necessitate an earthly punishment-- is that considered a good or evil deed, and is that person good or evil?
Conversely, do people who are good "do good" so it will achieve some end for them? Are "good" things done for the sake of not going to jail or ruining there marriage? If a good person decides not to give into adultery for the sake of saving his marriage, is that not good?
___________________________________________________________________
For navybluerat:
As I said before, your character is very admirable. I know I said that before but it occured to me again while reading this over. Just so you know...
You differentiated between the state of "conscience" and state of "Spirit".
You said that the conscience differs from the Spirit in that it can be heard by the psyche, and turned on and off at will. Being a psychology major an intense appreciator of the subject, I come to find that you and I's definitions of what the "psyche" is might differ. So, my question is: How do you define the Psyche? And what do you mean by "turned on and off"? My initial perception was that we access our conscience with mental effort at different times of the day, and sometimes it's just not need. What times is it accessed, and when is it not? You mentioned that the Spirit cannot be turned on or off by the person he lives within. If that is true, wouldn't it follow that people who renounced their faith still have the Spirit within them? Or would they still have it, unbeknowst to themselves?
You mention that the conscience is determined by upbringing and willingness to follow. Is the state of the Spirits presence within us not determined by our upbringing and our willingness to follow? Or is the state of the Spirit's presence with us inconsequential to our willingness to follow? My first assumption is to think yes, for many people who do not have the Spirit became that way out of an unwillingness to follow. Or am I wrong in that assumption?
You mentioned that perhaps the Spirit is a form of conscience in a way, but is much much larger in its presence than the conscience of a person who does not have the Spirit (the difference being comparative to a person on a bicylce versus a person on a huge spaceship). So if that is the case, when a person goes from not-believing to believing, it would follow that the "consciousness" level jumps from the power of a bicycle to a power of a spaceship (metaphorically speaking of course). If that is true, would it imply then that the power of the Spirit in one's consciousness is the same for all people, no matter the experience years dedicated to the Spirit? Or perhaps is there a continuum, where one could have a deeper connection and power with the Spirit, then say, a beginner?
You say that you would gladly sacrifice yourself for you fellow countrymen and loved ones (very admirable) and anyone else that is threatened by the evilness in this world.
By evilness, who exactly do you mean? You say you would sacrifice for "any living person", but would that include people you think that are evil?
You said you would try very hard not to defend yourself from evil doers. What sort of dense to you speak of? The first thing I thought of was the defense from a physical assault, but I'm not sure that's not what you speak of. And to qualify what I think you mean, do you mean defending yourself at THEIR expense? Even if it was life or death for either one of you? And even if the person was evil? What if the defense of yourself from an evil doer was needed in order to help you protect your loved ones? Would you defend yourself then, even at their expense?
What does "OFU" mean?
__________
To JB25:
You make a great point concerning people in the past who asserted they were Christians, but from your perspective, weren't truly upholding the doctrine. Do you think that at the time, they were of the belief that they had the right understanding of the doctrine? Do you think that it's possible for you to similarly be in err about your understandings of doctrine--maybe not a similar scale degree, but at least to some degree? If not, how do you know that you aren't? If so, what does the realization do for the integrity of your understandings?
The passage you posted was very succint in pinning the concepts of good and evil. It seems then, that the dividing element of good and evil is love: those who wish to love each other and everyone are good, and those who seek to hurt one another evil. (If my perception is not correct, by all means rectify it.)
To me, this passage has struck me more than any other passage I've read on this forum. I'm sure I will draw upon it later, but first, I want to get consensus on everyone reading this...
___________________
To everyone:
In accordance with the assertion from JB 25 above: According to Romans 13: 8-10, it seems then that dividing line between good and evil is love.
Would anyone subtract from this assertion, or add to it?
_________________
These questions may seem rigorous and detailed, but I think they are getting me to larger questions--and answers-- about Christianty that I may be asking--or discovering-- soon. One theme I have come accrossed constantly is that to be a Christian, it means that one must submit oneself fully to the Holy Spirit with passion and undying commitment. My attempt from here is to understand the implications of this commitment , and to understand that which makes Christianity so different. My aim is to do so by noting the underlying themes prevalent in each person, which would help accomodate for the differences in their ideas and perspectives.
This has been very helpful so far, so I thank you all. I am looking forward to gaining more enlightenment, as well as the potential possibility of aiding everyone in the quest for their own (if that has happened for anyone).
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RE: Need Help Understanding Christianity - 3/4/2009 3:21:07 PM
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navyblueret
Posts: 1970
Joined: 11/29/2008
From: S/W Nebraska
Status: offline
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Zhugeliang565, Shalom.
My account is working with sever restrictions, for some reason, but at least it still allows me to 'Fast Reply,' but that is it other than the OK works to post. Oh Well. Here I go:
YOU: "... You differentiated between the state of "conscience" and state of "Spirit".
You said that the conscience differs from the Spirit in that it can be heard by the psyche, and turned on and off at will. Being a psychology major an intense appreciator of the subject, I come to find that you and I's definitions of what the "psyche" is might differ. So, my question is: How do you define the Psyche? And what do you mean by "turned on and off"? My initial perception was that we access our conscience with mental effort at different times of the day, and sometimes it's just not need. What times is it accessed, and when is it not? You mentioned that the Spirit cannot be turned on or off by the person he lives within. If that is true, wouldn't it follow that people who renounced their faith still have the Spirit within them? Or would they still have it, unbeknowst to themselves?"
ME: Your mind runs even more complex than mine. Ha!
The Psyche say's: 'Let's make a deal.' The Psyche is always adjusting, wheedling, and manipulating, to enjoy maximum comfort, and immediate reward.
The Spirit say's: 'This is the deal.' The Spirit is always guiding, strengthening, loving, to facilitate direction and eternal reward.//as//
YOU: You mention that the conscience is determined by upbringing and willingness to follow. Is the state of the Spirits presence within us not determined by our upbringing and our willingness to follow? Or is the state of the Spirit's presence with us inconsequential to our willingness to follow? My first assumption is to think yes, for many people who do not have the Spirit became that way out of an unwillingness to follow. Or am I wrong in that assumption?
ME: I should have qualified my statement a tad, by saying conscience is primarily determined by upbringing..... Holy Spirit, a Spiritual being, has fixed parameters of being, and cannot be added to nor reduced. The Spirit effect on our mortality, however elevates as we learn to follow Spirit's lead. Once accepted, IMO, Spirit resides within, as honored guest, or tenement tenant, determined by our submission. The better we learn to submit, the more consequential Spirit's guidance.//as//
YOU: You mentioned that perhaps the Spirit is a form of conscience in a way, but is much much larger in its presence than the conscience of a person who does not have the Spirit (the difference being comparative to a person on a bicylce versus a person on a huge spaceship). So if that is the case, when a person goes from not-believing to believing, it would follow that the "consciousness" level jumps from the power of a bicycle to a power of a spaceship (metaphorically speaking of course). If that is true, would it imply then that the power of the Spirit in one's consciousness is the same for all people, no matter the experience years dedicated to the Spirit? Or perhaps is there a continuum, where one could have a deeper connection and power with the Spirit, then say, a beginner?
ME: I misstated, perchance, ('conscious' being, was the word I wanted to use) as Spirit reshapes, and fills our conscience to promote behavior in keeping with Jesus' example. A non-believing, good person, equates to the bicycle. It will get you somewhere, but not far from original starting point. Now, the Spirit space-ship, will take a persons soul to the stars, and beyond, in the blink of an eye, with no limitation of capacity (imagination required). Consider: a non-believing, empty bucket, is just that. A believing, Spirit bucket, knows no limiting capacity, and loves to overflow onto others, who decide to desire the Spirit bucket over the empty bucket. Bingo! Another family member.//as//
YOU: You say that you would gladly sacrifice yourself for you fellow countrymen and loved ones (very admirable) and anyone else that is threatened by the evilness in this world.
By evilness, who exactly do you mean? You say you would sacrifice for "any living person", but would that include people you think that are evil?
ME: My statement was, physically speaking, more history than current, but even today, I would probably try to defend, with much less chance of success. Evil, in itself (Satan by name), takes many shapes and attitudes. I leave it to your imagination as to who, what, when, and why. Interesting you would ask if I would include 'people I think that are evil,' as someone I would sacrifice for. Good shot. Evil must always be addressed with focus, and specificity. To stereotype based on anything other than the evil itself, would not be descent, nor Christian.//as//
YOU: You said you would try very hard not to defend yourself from evil doers. What sort of dense to you speak of? The first thing I thought of was the defense from a physical assault, but I'm not sure that's not what you speak of. And to qualify what I think you mean, do you mean defending yourself at THEIR expense? Even if it was life or death for either one of you? And even if the person was evil? What if the defense of yourself from an evil doer was needed in order to help you protect your loved ones? Would you defend yourself then, even at their expense?
My post #11, above, is a reevaluation of my statement about defending self. The 'sort of defense' I speak of would be 'as required, up to lethal force,' addressing the physicality factor mostly. Your question does not understand that 'force' is determined by many factors associated with the moment, location, and type of attack. I will not attempt to teach you the psychology, physiology, nor spirituality of this type problem.//as//
YOU: What does "OFU" mean?
ME: Ah, the easiest, yet least comfortable: 'Old, Fat, Ugly.' Sort of like UFO, only I don't fly, nor run, nearly as fast as I once did. Ha.//as//
Well, there you have it, Zhugeliang565, my sharing of my faith, and understanding. Be I right, or wrong, by any standard other than my God, must be attributed to the fact that we are not clones.
In Messiah, His Shalom, and Truth. Arley
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: Need Help Understanding Christianity - 3/4/2009 4:13:04 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2937
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ZhugeLiang565
To everyone:
In accordance with the assertion from JB 25 above: According to Romans 13: 8-10, it seems then that dividing line between good and evil is love.
Would anyone subtract from this assertion, or add to it?
This depends how one defines love. If one accepts that a summarization is defined by that which is summarizes, then I would agree. That is if we want to know what love means we look at HaTorah.
However, if on sees a summarization as something that redefines that which it summarizes, I disagree. That is if one hopes to identify good and evil by looking at a broad definition of love and judge by what appears to in line with that general concept, then it is nearly impossible to make a clear distinction.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Need Help Understanding Christianity - 3/4/2009 4:18:19 PM
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raivyne
Posts: 883
Joined: 8/28/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
According to Christianity....
What is good?
What is evil?
What constitutes a good person, and what constitutes an evil person?
Are the absolute evils in this world? In other words, are there people who are undeniably evil, no matter the circumstance? Are the people who are undeniably good?
Let's discuss!
well i'm a bit late but i'll throw in my two bits.
God is good. (God is also love BTW)
Evil is the absense of God (good). (you cannot IMO truely love anyone if you do not first love God)
Because of the sin of Adam future generations were cursed, we are not by ourselves good. We are only good when we allow God to live in us. A "good person" loves God and strives to please Him in every aspect of life. A good person seeks to walk with God. A good person is a vessel through which the Holy Spirit can work and further God's plan.
An evil person lives for themselves and destroys others around them whether intentionally or accidentally. An evil person has no regard for the will of God nor any desire to please Him.
Good people can sometimes do bad things (if there is no repentence then they are evil IMO) and likewise bad people can do good things.
I think that states my views in as simple a manner as possible.
_____________________________
Choice happens before the bedroom.
I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody if asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly, I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. Original Hippocratic Oath, circa 400 B.C.
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RE: Need Help Understanding Christianity - 3/5/2009 10:59:10 AM
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bob97
Posts: 2260
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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quote:
In accordance with the assertion from JB 25 above: According to Romans 13: 8-10, it seems then that dividing line between good and evil is love.
The dividing line is accepting Christ and believing Him to be the Son of God.
There are two people, one believing in Christ and committing his life to following and being dependent upon God as a source of all things and the other person rejecting Christ and being dependent upon his self for all things.
God has forgiven the first person of all his sinful nature and accepts this person as His son. The other person who reject's Christ, God sees as not belonging His family and this person will be rejected as long as he remains in this condition.
The first person, who accepts Christ will receive the Spirit of God and will develop in the goodness of God, while the second person has not the Spirit of God will be driven by his own lust.
Love is a by product of God's Spirit and God tells us if we love Him with all our power and love others as we love our self that we have fulfilled all of Gods commandments.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Need Help Understanding Christianity - 3/7/2009 12:53:47 PM
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facedown
Posts: 841
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: the urban desert
Status: offline
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quote:
What is good?
in a word: god.
in several words: the god who created the heavens and the earth, and all that is - who is above, below, beyond, and here alone is "good". that which comes from god is "good". that which god does is "good". that which god creates is "good", and we understand that which is created in the imago/eikon (image) of god is "very good".
What is evil?
that which seeks to destory anything that is "good" - to hold it captive, to misuse it, etc.
What constitutes a good person, and what constitutes an evil person?
one who seeks redemption, reconciliation, healing, (etc) of themselves, their neighbor, and/or creation - those who do not hold 'good' things in captive, those who do not abuse or misuse or destroy that which has been created 'good' or 'very good'.
Are the absolute evils in this world? In other words, are there people who are undeniably evil, no matter the circumstance?
no, i don't think so.
Are the people who are undeniably good?
no. i don't think so, because it's important to understand that none are self-sufficient.
the problem often faced when identifying 'good' and 'evil' is it puts one into a subject-object relationship. it, in turn, demonizes some. if we embrace that "all fall short" (all meaning all) then we must align ourselves with this all, all the time.
likewise, and a little pluralistically, if we embrace that god is indeed actively redeeming all that is, we must also align not only ourselves, but all that is in this creative act of reconcilliation.
pax
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-| you are the ones who justify yourselves |-
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RE: Need Help Understanding Christianity - 3/8/2009 11:54:38 PM
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LCannon
Posts: 1128
Joined: 2/22/2007
From: Lebanon, OR
Status: offline
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To quantify faith especially true Christianity that appropriates the our sacrifice/obedience/Victory is the difference between describing your mother's face(in words)and living with her growing up. One immediately recognizes her but words fail to capture her total qualities.
What is good? God is(good); God is not, not.
What is evil? 'The heart[mortality]is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?'(Jeremiah 17:9)
What constitutes a good person, and what constitutes an evil person? A 'good person' is obedient to Christ Jesus' teaching in love, justice and conviction. An 'evil person' is still trapped in oneself that denies Christ' anointing sacrifice in unbelief in either ignorance or arrogance.
Are the absolute evils in this world? “[you can be] freed from the arrogance that enslaves you [and] come into His obedience resulting in purification and Eternal Life. For the wages of sin is death but the free gift of is Eternal Life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 3:22,23
_____________________________
'I will never leave you nor forsake you.' (Joshua 1:5)
''Let the very worst thing come to pass[and]even there,
especially there; His hand will hold.' -Elisabeth Elliot-
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RE: Need Help Understanding Christianity - 3/21/2009 4:01:10 AM
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gradStudentNYC
Posts: 93
Joined: 3/13/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ZhugeLiang565
What constitutes a good person, and what constitutes an evil person?
In the book of Romans, Paul teaches that "There is no one righteous, not even one." While there are many who do good acts and help others, these are tainted with the filth of pride, self-righteousness, and insincerity. God, who is perfect and just, requires that we live perfect. Yet, we fall so far short. But, God, in great mercy provided His son Jesus Christ to cover our failings. Later, Paul writes, "This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."
This is a one paragraph explanation as best as I am able! Thanks for asking!!
_____________________________
Andrew,
Vocabulary Words | Christian Blog | GMAT Study Guide
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RE: Need Help Understanding Christianity - 3/23/2009 4:58:52 PM
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dkgnew
Posts: 106
Joined: 4/20/2006
Status: offline
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First.
We believe in Original Sin.
We Believe that the Bible : Genesis - Revelation, reveals Gods dealing with man, and Man's inability to obtain a state of true Righteousness outside of total obedience to God's word. and Gods abhorrence to rebellion\sin against his standards.
we believe that God (in the Scriptures) spoke to his servants - the Prophets and Apostles, Preachers, etc. to declare his plan of Salvation for all mankind who "wills" to obtain his favor and make peace with God (while his Grace permits). this was accomplished one of two ways
a. He chose the nation of Israel to be an example to the other nations
b. Hence the Law (thru Moses), and the Levitical priesthood
c. the Laws and the Priesthood, was a foreshadowing of Jesus' ministry that would include every nation, and the Requirements of the Laws of Moses (established by God) would be met by Jesus' death\burial\resurrection. and All who believe on him and is baptized will receive power\authority to subdue the evil plans of Satan, the Arch-enemy who was kicked out of heaven with an large host of angels.
d. we believe and can show that the prophecies spoken about our Lord Jesus have been fulfilled just as it was foretold, and all the prophecies spoken regarding the Israel, various Kings and kingdoms, have come to past. and we wait his return just as he fulfilled the Virgin birth and many other prophecies foretold.
e. We, thru the miraculous new birth experience completed when we believe in Christ, are empowered by constant praying, fastings, fellowship, and studying and practice the requirements of the Scriptures, in times of Worship and Adoration and thanksgiving. while we live peaceably with all men, as much as is possible so that his name will not be dishonored by our conduct, while we wait for the fulfillment of the other prophecies relating to his return to take those to live with him who have lived clean and holy lives.
f. The Scriptures makes it abundantly clear that all who reject his GRACE and Mercy and go their own way, have nothing to look forward to but eternal damnation in a fiery hell reserved for the Devil and his angels and all who reject him.
Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 ¶And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:1 ¶And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
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