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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/9/2009 8:40:18 PM
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Theo-Minor
Posts: 286
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Rhomphaia
Now, with that in mind, using a Jewish Calendar, Jesus had the passover meal and was crucified ON THE SAME DAY, which was the passover day!!
I appreciate what you are getting at here, but I think you are a little confused on one small point.
If I am understanding you correctly (and I'm pretty sure I am), you are suggesting that Jesus ate the Passover on the evening of the 14th (once it got dark and became the 14th), and was then crucified on the 14th, which was also the next day.
This is not an uncommon presumption. I have read several works that try to explain the discrepency between John and the Synoptics with this hypothesis.
However, the problem is that "evening" in a first century Jewish application would mean any time after high noon as the sun starts moving towards the western horizon. The day of the 14th and the evening of the 14th can and do occur simultaneously. The lamb was slain about 3:00 p.m. on the 14th day, which is "in the evening, at the going down of the sun," and was later eaten. Once it became full dark, it would have become the 15th of the month.
So while I respect the point you are trying to make, it is erroneous. He ate the Last Supper on the 14th and was crucified on the 15th, based on Jewish culture and scripture.
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/18/2009 7:41:32 PM
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zeke25
Posts: 46
Joined: 6/18/2009
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I see I'm about three months late in joining this conversation. And after I saw that there were about 19 pages and three months of dialog, I can't imagine that I can read all of it. Did anyone ever reach a conclusion? Does anyone know the time of the Last Supper, Crucifixion, and time of Him rising again from the dead? Has anyone given this scenario?
The Last Supper occurred on the 4th day of the week - 12 Abib.
The crucifixion took place on the 5th day of the week.
The first of two adjacent sabbaths was Passover on the 6th day of the week.
He rose from the dead on the 7th day of the week prior to sunrise (that is the end of the 7th day, daylight was gone and night had begun - a day begins a sunrise, not sunset).
The Marys showed up on the 1st day of the week at or right after sunrise.
You now have three days and three nights. The first day was not a full day since He breathed His last on the 9th hour (3 PM). This day was Thursday for those who need to think in Gregory. Thursday night was the first night.
The second day was Friday (Passover, an high sabbath) and that night (Friday night) was the second night.
The third day was Saturday (a sabbath within a sabbath - it was a sabbath because it was Saturday and it was a sabbath because it was the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread). And Saturday night was the third night, but it wasn't a full night, since the stone was rolled away and He was out of the grave before sunrise Sunday morning.
Any questions? Need I ask?
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/18/2009 9:23:49 PM
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Theo-Minor
Posts: 286
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
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Yes.
That point of view has been expressed, argued, and thoroughly refuted on a number of levels.
If that is the hypothesis you hold to, you might find some edification by reading this thread in its entirety. The topic has been discussed from just about every angle you can think of.
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/18/2009 9:43:59 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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Theo,
In case you're interested, I came across an interesting site the other day. I was looking for some information to help me document the Greek gender/plurals/singulars and so forth on Matt. 28:1--first day of the week. As I said earlier, my Greek is rusty.
What I found was a site by a Seventh Day Adventist refuting the misbegotten Greek "proofs" that we were offered earlier by the sabbatarians. Interestingly enough (and this goes back to the 19th century), he was refuting some Christians who used the mistranslation "first of the Sabbaths." Those Christians had the view that the "first of the Sabbaths" translation supported the Sunday Sabbath change!!! So, he was using some of our arguments to show that it is bad Greek to translate it that way. Apparently, he didn't have any problem with a Sunday resurrection, just a Sunday Sabbath.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/18/2009 10:26:13 PM
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CherishedbyGod
Posts: 1622
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zeke25
I see I'm about three months late in joining this conversation. And after I saw that there were about 19 pages and three months of dialog, I can't imagine that I can read all of it. Did anyone ever reach a conclusion? Does anyone know the time of the Last Supper, Crucifixion, and time of Him rising again from the dead? Has anyone given this scenario?
The Last Supper occurred on the 4th day of the week - 12 Abib.
The crucifixion took place on the 5th day of the week.
The first of two adjacent sabbaths was Passover on the 6th day of the week.
He rose from the dead on the 7th day of the week prior to sunrise (that is the end of the 7th day, daylight was gone and night had begun - a day begins a sunrise, not sunset).
The Marys showed up on the 1st day of the week at or right after sunrise.
You now have three days and three nights. The first day was not a full day since He breathed His last on the 9th hour (3 PM). This day was Thursday for those who need to think in Gregory. Thursday night was the first night.
The second day was Friday (Passover, an high sabbath) and that night (Friday night) was the second night.
The third day was Saturday (a sabbath within a sabbath - it was a sabbath because it was Saturday and it was a sabbath because it was the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread). And Saturday night was the third night, but it wasn't a full night, since the stone was rolled away and He was out of the grave before sunrise Sunday morning.
Any questions? Need I ask?
zeke25...
Welcome to the forums  It is so good to see you here on the thread I started....!
If it shuts down...know that it will probably re-start again next year around Passover time....
Again, welcome!
_____________________________
For...Through His suffering, I am free!!!
~ The Power of the Cross ~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwzt9jRUPNg
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/18/2009 10:57:03 PM
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zeke25
Posts: 46
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Well, I've checked it out and I see no credible refutation. What part bothers you? By the way, it is not an hypothesis. The Passover is always on the 14th of Abib, it is always the 6th day of the week, it never changes. The Last Supper was not a Passover meal/seder because it wasn't eaten on the 14th of Abib. This is according to the Bible calendar, not the Jewish calendar, or Gregory's calendar, or Julien's calendar, etc.
John 18:28 KJV, "Then led they [Yahoshua] from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover." This scripture pinpoints the timing of the Last Supper and the Passover meal. The Passover would be tomorrow, but the Last Supper had already occurred yesterday. Why? Because it was now the fifth day of the week and He would be crucified today. And the Pharisees wanted him removed from the execution stake prior to the sabbath (the sabbath in this case was the Passover sabbath, not the end of the week sabbath). John 19:31 KJV, "The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away." So how do we reconcile the many verses in the other three gospels that tend to make one believe that the Last Supper occurred on Passover? And how do we conclude that Yahoshua was not crucified on Passover, but was crucified the day before Passover? One more important point. In spite of the current Jewish tradition, at that time and now, the Passover day, in fact all days, begin at sunrise according to the Bible calendar, not at sunset.
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/19/2009 12:51:00 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2923
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zeke25
The Passover is always on the 14th of Abib, it is always the 6th day of the week, it never changes.
Though I don't think the first day sixth day Sacrifice and the the first day ressurection are a slam dunk, I must say that Pesach can not always fall on the sixth day. The days of the month are based on the moon cycle which is not a perfect 28 day cycle. Therefore the days of the week and the date of the month do not always line up.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/20/2009 12:47:48 AM
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zeke25
Posts: 46
Joined: 6/18/2009
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Bluethread,
I have a reply prepared concerning the Bible calendar, but I must pray about whether or not to post it here. Meanwhile, if you wish to discuss the days of the Last Supper, crucifixion, and Passover I will gladly continue. RSJC93@comcast.net.
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/20/2009 6:02:15 PM
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Theo-Minor
Posts: 286
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Theo,
In case you're interested, I came across an interesting site the other day. I was looking for some information to help me document the Greek gender/plurals/singulars and so forth on Matt. 28:1--first day of the week. As I said earlier, my Greek is rusty.
What I found was a site by a Seventh Day Adventist refuting the misbegotten Greek "proofs" that we were offered earlier by the sabbatarians. Interestingly enough (and this goes back to the 19th century), he was refuting some Christians who used the mistranslation "first of the Sabbaths." Those Christians had the view that the "first of the Sabbaths" translation supported the Sunday Sabbath change!!! So, he was using some of our arguments to show that it is bad Greek to translate it that way. Apparently, he didn't have any problem with a Sunday resurrection, just a Sunday Sabbath.
lol
Yeah, I'd like that link if you don't mind.
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/20/2009 6:15:56 PM
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Theo-Minor
Posts: 286
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zeke25
Well, I've checked it out and I see no credible refutation. What part bothers you? By the way, it is not an hypothesis. The Passover is always on the 14th of Abib, it is always the 6th day of the week, it never changes. The Last Supper was not a Passover meal/seder because it wasn't eaten on the 14th of Abib. This is according to the Bible calendar, not the Jewish calendar, or Gregory's calendar, or Julien's calendar, etc.
John 18:28 KJV, "Then led they [Yahoshua] from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover." This scripture pinpoints the timing of the Last Supper and the Passover meal. The Passover would be tomorrow, but the Last Supper had already occurred yesterday. Why? Because it was now the fifth day of the week and He would be crucified today. And the Pharisees wanted him removed from the execution stake prior to the sabbath (the sabbath in this case was the Passover sabbath, not the end of the week sabbath). John 19:31 KJV, "The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away." So how do we reconcile the many verses in the other three gospels that tend to make one believe that the Last Supper occurred on Passover? And how do we conclude that Yahoshua was not crucified on Passover, but was crucified the day before Passover? One more important point. In spite of the current Jewish tradition, at that time and now, the Passover day, in fact all days, begin at sunrise according to the Bible calendar, not at sunset.
1) If you don't see any credible refutation, then you might want to read it again. You must have missed the few dozen posts that tear down most of what you suggested.
2) Your point of view is a hypothesis, not a proven fact in theory. What you have said is based upon speculation, not concrete evidence.
3) The Passover is, in fact, always on the 14th of Nissan, but it is not always on the sixth day of the week. You are mistaken.
4) The Last Supper was a Passover meal. Please refer to the Synoptic gospels. Mark and Luke in particular. The Last Supper was on the day when the Passover was killed, which is the 14th.
5) Bible days, then and now, began at sunset. You are mistaken.
GrahamCracker and myself have addressed all these issues in previous posts. Again, you need reread them.
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/21/2009 12:40:37 AM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2227
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zeke25
Bluethread,
I have a reply prepared concerning the Bible calendar, but I must pray about whether or not to post it here. Meanwhile, if you wish to discuss the days of the Last Supper, crucifixion, and Passover I will gladly continue. RSJC93@comcast.net.
Greetings zeke25
quote:
but I must pray about whether or not to post it here
By all means, I would like to see it...to see if we have a match.. so to speak
34 It is like a man going to a far country , “who left his house ”…. and gave “authority ”…. to his servants,
and to each his work, and commanded “the doorkeeper” to watch.
35 Watch therefore, for you do not know when the master “of the house”… is coming-
The man in verse 34 and the master of THE house are not the same, there are 2 contexts Jesus uses this comparison but the Son is only mentioned here
When the Master of the house comes… The Son does not know when that is, BUT the Father only…because the Master of the House is the Father and is coming for the Jews not the church as Jesus said… He will “be hidden” from “their eyes” until that time
Therefore The Son does not know
Now go and take a peek at the other context where Jesus excludes the comment of the Son not knowing… the only thing the other context can mean…. is that the above has come to pass.= meaning…the Master of the House has come…
Now take a peek at what is written the other context
BUT for timing issues
35 Watch therefore, for you do not know when the master “of the house”… is coming-
in the evening , = the Passover with His disciples 6:00PM
at midnight , = the arrest in Gethsemane = 12:00AM
at the crowing of the rooster , 3:00AM
This was all given beforehand
Mt 26:34 - Show Context
Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you that “this night” (still dark) = in the evening, “before”…. the rooster crows, =(@ the peak of the full moon)…. you will deny Me… three times."
6:00PM to 3:00AM shows us it was “the ninth hour” of the evening
IF the crowing of the rooster , was @ 3:00AM and was AT peak Full Moon
…if we can find a calendar…. that is accurate to the hour… it will tells us the exact the day ...Passover was given... to the disciples 
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/21/2009 6:33:55 AM
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Theo-Minor
Posts: 286
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: offline
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Dude, where do you come up with this stuff? Not a stitch of what you said is evidence, in any way, of what time, what day, or what day of the week any of the events took place. Neither does any mention of the rooster establish the times of the evening that the arrest or denial occurred. I can appreciate what you are trying to say. I even understand it, and where you are coming from. But it's way off in left field. It's a figment of your imagination.
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/21/2009 6:57:58 AM
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Theo-Minor
Posts: 286
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zeke25
You now have three days and three nights. The first day was not a full day since He breathed His last on the 9th hour (3 PM). This day was Thursday for those who need to think in Gregory. Thursday night was the first night.
By the way, "Thursday" is not a Gregorian addition or concept. The names for the days of the week have been around since the time of Jesus. They are primarily Roman in origin, such as Saturday, for example, which was referred to as the day of Saturn. Many of the month names were equally Roman in origin.
Julius Caesar introduced his calendar in 45 BCE. It allowed for a solar year of 365.25 days with a leap year every fourth year, or, as we understand it, in every year divisible by 4 according to the astronomical calendar years. The Gregorian calendar was introduced on February 24th of 1582 via a papal bull, issued by Pope Gregory XIII. His reform subtracted ten days from the calendar and caused Thursday, October 4th, to be followed by Friday, October 15th. It further altered the method of leap years to allow for a leap year if the year was divisible by 4, but not by 100, or if it was divisible by 400. This adjustment to the leap year system corrected all future drifts in the calendar, as had happened during the times of the Julian calendar, which was a direct result of a minor miscalculation between the 365.25 days of the Julian solar year and the mean solar year of approximately 365.2422 days which causes the calendar to shift forward a day every 131 years, thus necessitating the Gregorian reform and the omission of 10 days in 1582 to realign Easter with the equinox after a 12-day shift since the time of the first Nicean council in 325 CE.
Since the calendar system was slightly changed, the new version was named after Pope Gregory, even though it was merely a correction of the Julian calendar.
And neither the Julian, nor the Gregorian calendars have anything to do with the day of the week. So far as we know, the days of the week have continued uninterrupted since well before the time of Jesus. Only the years, months, and systems of counting them have been altered.
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/21/2009 10:04:37 AM
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Nick_Drake
Posts: 601
Joined: 4/24/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Theo-Minor
quote:
ORIGINAL: zeke25
You now have three days and three nights. The first day was not a full day since He breathed His last on the 9th hour (3 PM). This day was Thursday for those who need to think in Gregory. Thursday night was the first night.
By the way, "Thursday" is not a Gregorian addition or concept. The names for the days of the week have been around since the time of Jesus. They are primarily Roman in origin, such as Saturday, for example, which was referred to as the day of Saturn. Many of the month names were equally Roman in origin.
Julius Caesar introduced his calendar in 45 BCE. It allowed for a solar year of 365.25 days with a leap year every fourth year, or, as we understand it, in every year divisible by 4 according to the astronomical calendar years. The Gregorian calendar was introduced on February 24th of 1582 via a papal bull, issued by Pope Gregory XIII. His reform subtracted ten days from the calendar and caused Thursday, October 4th, to be followed by Friday, October 15th. It further altered the method of leap years to allow for a leap year if the year was divisible by 4, but not by 100, or if it was divisible by 400. This adjustment to the leap year system corrected all future drifts in the calendar, as had happened during the times of the Julian calendar, which was a direct result of a minor miscalculation between the 365.25 days of the Julian solar year and the mean solar year of approximately 365.2422 days which causes the calendar to shift forward a day every 131 years, thus necessitating the Gregorian reform and the omission of 10 days in 1582 to realign Easter with the equinox after a 12-day shift since the time of the first Nicean council in 325 CE.
Since the calendar system was slightly changed, the new version was named after Pope Gregory, even though it was merely a correction of the Julian calendar.
And neither the Julian, nor the Gregorian calendars have anything to do with the day of the week. So far as we know, the days of the week have continued uninterrupted since well before the time of Jesus. Only the years, months, and systems of counting them have been altered.
Very good information. Any reverse calculation of time must take into consideration these adjustments that have been made along the way. I recently had to do a school assignment that required me to dig into this a bit, and what you share here is essentially what I came up with. The one thing I didn't nail down was exactly how they removed 10 days from the calendar. But you've cleared that up. Good work.
_____________________________
'This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Every wineskin should be filled with wine.' Jeremiah 13:12
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/21/2009 3:22:30 PM
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CherishedbyGod
Posts: 1622
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Theo-Minor
Dude, where do you come up with this stuff?
But it's way off in left field. It's a figment of your imagination.
Do not attack my brother!
Even though there have been numerous differences of opinions, this thread has been a wonderful display of courteous respect and loving fellowship amongst the brethren.
It has been a joy for the Lord and me to behold...
My brother has a right to his opinion without your discourteous remarks...
_____________________________
For...Through His suffering, I am free!!!
~ The Power of the Cross ~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwzt9jRUPNg
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/21/2009 3:34:15 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CherishedbyGod
quote:
ORIGINAL: Theo-Minor
Dude, where do you come up with this stuff?
But it's way off in left field. It's a figment of your imagination.
Do not attack my brother!
Even though there have been numerous differences of opinions, this thread has been a wonderful display of courteous respect and loving fellowship amongst the brethren.
It has been a joy for the Lord and me to behold...
My brother has a right to his opinion without your discourteous remarks...
Cherished,
I would like to quote Bill Bennett, who said something that is not original with him. He acquired it from somewhere else.
"You have a right to your own opinion but not a right to your own facts."
Basically, there may be a disagreement regarding opinion. But disagreement on facts is not an attack on someone's character nor is it a personal attack. No need to feel defensive. Facts are facts, period. Unless one can show that certain facts are wrong, they remain true no matter what anyone thinks of them.
Frankly, I seldom discuss anything with LoyalGypsy because I frequently find his posts incoherent. That is not an attack on him.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/21/2009 7:07:44 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2227
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Theo-Minor
Dude, where do you come up with this stuff? Not a stitch of what you said is evidence, in any way, of what time, what day, or what day of the week any of the events took place. Neither does any mention of the rooster establish the times of the evening that the arrest or denial occurred. I can appreciate what you are trying to say. I even understand it, and where you are coming from. But it's way off in left field. It's a figment of your imagination.
Greetings,
quote:
Dude, where do you come up with this stuff?
Truthfully....
I always look for the obvious first and then seek out where it is suppressed by the world and find that information….The same way Jesus did, when He read the scriptures concerning Himself….and kept the appointed times.
quote:
Not a stitch of what you said is evidence, in any way, of what time, what day, or what day of the week any of the events took place.
There is plenty of scripture evidence, what would you like to know from the OT?
quote:
I can appreciate what you are trying to say. I even understand it, and where you are coming from.
And where is that?
quote:
It's a figment of your imagination.
If you know it is a figment; then one should at least supply the person with the part you believe is a figment...?
Please forgive me.. but... if I was to take your word for it as well as others in the past whom have used such suggestions ....
I would be somewhat discouraged and not encouraged to continue...
But that’s ok ... that kind of stuff… has no affect in this house.
But you know what is funny about that though.. ..
Is the fact that the Lord goes ahead and allows me to see even more… than before…
SO.... if one whishes to rebuke then at least show one the error ... if not then I am left with no other choice than to stand with what I have been shown.
I offered and said... for timing issues…
It works sort of like this here...
IF.... the crowing of the rooster was @ 3:00AM and was AT peak Full Moon …
Then …
One should at least know that the Passover occurs at the full moon...and roosters can crow at anytime during the day… but for some really weird reason… Jesus knew when this particular rooster not only was going to crow but was going to be in the same place Peter was also and crowed directly after Peter denied Him for the “third time”... and as Jesus said… that NIGHT… (Almost like clockwork… wouldn’t you agree?)
Now in observations concerning timing…There are only 3 hours to a watch!
Well it was the Passover… and the Moon was full… and most likely was very bright in the “night sky” = complete darkness = NOT THE DAWN
…therefore one can even make that assumption simply based on the timing given… that rooster when it crowed marked the fourth watch of the night… and even be correct.
And then I said...
…if we can find a calendar…. that is accurate to the hour … it will tell us (obviously) the exact the day ...Passover was given ... to the disciples ... because... that is all that was mentioned in the scriptures… and the Moon was at is fullest in the fourth watch or the ninth hour of the evening.
BUT
The thing is that type information is suppressed in certain mathematical circles these days, for reasons I believe we all know about  ...and one will have search for a very long time to find someone who will offer up such information that just happens to know how to make that calculation
So ....Where is that figment that you say exists?
I have done my homework, and it’s a simple prophecy and it is plastered all over the OT… so I asked zeke25... to post up his calendar
… If... it was given him to do so
… So as to see if there is a match.
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/21/2009 7:25:31 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2227
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: CherishedbyGod
quote:
ORIGINAL: Theo-Minor
Dude, where do you come up with this stuff?
But it's way off in left field. It's a figment of your imagination.
Do not attack my brother!
Even though there have been numerous differences of opinions, this thread has been a wonderful display of courteous respect and loving fellowship amongst the brethren.
It has been a joy for the Lord and me to behold...
My brother has a right to his opinion without your discourteous remarks...
Cherished,
I would like to quote Bill Bennett, who said something that is not original with him. He acquired it from somewhere else.
"You have a right to your own opinion but not a right to your own facts."
Basically, there may be a disagreement regarding opinion. But disagreement on facts is not an attack on someone's character nor is it a personal attack. No need to feel defensive. Facts are facts, period. Unless one can show that certain facts are wrong, they remain true no matter what anyone thinks of them.
Frankly, I seldom discuss anything with LoyalGypsy because I frequently find his posts incoherent. That is not an attack on him.
Greetings
quote:
Facts are facts, period. Unless one can show that certain facts are wrong, they remain true no matter what anyone thinks of them.
quote:
"You have a right to your own opinion but not a right to your own facts."
That’s why I take no quotes from the world seriously ... what you are saying (or offered) above ...is that to dispute something that is not factual is indeed done by imposing facts....which therefore gives that fact the right to your own opinion
LOL!!!
LG
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 6/21/2009 7:35:57 PM >
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/21/2009 8:22:15 PM
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CherishedbyGod
Posts: 1622
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Frankly, I seldom discuss anything with LoyalGypsy because I frequently find his posts incoherent. That is not an attack on him.
This is just, plain, downright mean for you to post this on a public forum.
The beauty of this thread, until, very recently is, that there has not been any meanness....
I would hope that, under the title of "Christ's Crucifixion and Passover", we might rise above being mean, below the belt Christians in our arrogance of thinking we are the only ones that have the answer....
If God's love cannot prevail under such a title, we know nothing of God's love...
_____________________________
For...Through His suffering, I am free!!!
~ The Power of the Cross ~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwzt9jRUPNg
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/21/2009 8:33:09 PM
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Theo-Minor
Posts: 286
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: offline
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• CherishedbyGod
1) There have not been differences of opinion on this thread. There have been facts and fantasies. Jesus did not die on a Wednesday. Period. That hypothesis is based entirely upon speculation, it defies other scriptures, it logically deduces absurd improbabilities, and it is completely devoid of historical credibility as it concerns culture, mathematics, and other issues relevant to the topic.
2) It was not actually my intent to disrespect anyone. If he feels disrespected, so be it. I'm sure Peter wasn't terribly fond of Jesus saying to him, "Get thee behind me Satan." Sometimes things are not always pleasant to hear. Nevertheless, it was not my intent to attack him. His posts just don't make much sense sometimes, and some of the things he comes up with are weird. He thinks they are innovative, or insightful, but they aren't. They are just weird.
3) No one, in Christianity, has a right to an opinion that they have not earned. We are to be in one accord and of one mind. Errant, left field interpretations are not the God-given birthright of the believer. Those interpretations, especially when entirely unsubstantiated, are called heresies (which is not meant to suggest that LoyalGypsy is a heretic; I am speaking generally).
• LoyalGypsy
1) There is not any Old Testament evidence to conclusively demonstrate the day, the date, or the times associated with the Last Supper and the crucifixion. Your thing with Genesis and the dividing of the night and day, light and dark, is not proof of anything.
2) Your whole point of view is your imagination. You can't prove what time the rooster crowed. You can't prove what time they sat down to eat. You can't prove anything. There is a single scriptural reference that helps to establish the timeframe, and that's in John. Judas went out "and it was dark." When you compare that to the Synoptics, it can be deduced that the meal was consumed in the late afternoon as it approached evening.
Outside of that, the closest we have to an absolute event of timing is the possibility that the "cock's crow" is merely a Greek translation of Keri’ath Ha-Geber (The Call of the Cock), which was not actually a rooster, but a man who blew the horn. On the Passover, it would have been blown just before midnight as a warning, and again at midnight proper. Although this is speculation on my part, it is reasonably probable and not without substantiation.
3) As it concerns errant doctrine, I really wish you would get discouraged. It's called humility. You are not the only one dealing with the issue. I see it all the time on a lot of doctrines. People fight the good fight, but they never stop to ask themselves if they should be fighting it in the first place. Wisdom is to be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath, as opposed to finding a way to answer any question, no matter how damaging to their point of view, so as to avoid being wrong.
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/21/2009 8:33:59 PM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 10981
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Chastising other posters for how they post is disruptive. If you don't like how someone posts and think it's an attack, please file a report instead of disrupting a thread by taking it on yourself to correct them.
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LibriVox: acoustical liberation of books in the public domain
(Avatar: Turkeys are all saying "Moo")
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/21/2009 8:39:25 PM
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Theo-Minor
Posts: 286
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: offline
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Sorry for any ugliness folks. As suggested, let's get back to topic.
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/21/2009 10:19:08 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2227
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CherishedbyGod
The beauty of this thread, until, very recently is, that there has not been any meanness....
I would hope that, under the title of "Christ's Crucifixion and Passover", we might rise above being mean, below the belt Christians in our arrogance of thinking we are the only ones that have the answer....
If God's love cannot prevail under such a title, we know nothing of God's love...
Greetings
Hey Sis,
Don't worry about me... Truthfully
I have just found it to be amazing that some who believe in a Friday Crucifixion and Sunday morning resurrection... (that was most likely established by Constantine to compensate Roman gods and festivals).... and say they also believe in like manner at the same time… that He spent 3 days and 3 nights in the grave ...
...I find that be amazing how that can equate 1 and ½ or 2 to ever = 3 ..With absolutely nothing to justify that math... at least I cannot find nor have been led to an example of that type of time keeping in the OT...
Unless it is here in
Eze 18:25 - Show Context
Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
But even that suggests it does not compute
I mean.... sometimes the hour could mean a certain scenarios or ...the day of ...could mean a certain scenario in time... but 1 and 1/2 or 2 = 3
I mean unless Jesus meant something else by the saying... of being IN the belly of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights.... I wish someone would as least let us know what that something else is........
quote:
My pastor says yes ....while I have heard others say no.. Because we go by two different calendars.
If that were the truth... then according to the equality of the word of God… in order for the 2 to be accurate, they should be total opposite... one of another,
But that’s the point.... the one that was changed... is not..
And in like manner there is no way to manipulate the OT be opposite of the one that was changed either...even if they wanted to go that far…they can’t because the Jews preserved the Torah rather in tact for that very reason.
IMHO ...
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/21/2009 11:00:59 PM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 10981
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
cherishedbygod - please email community@salemwebnetwork.com before posting further.
Please allow time for a response. Do not set up any new accounts or post under another handle.
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Tricia
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Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/22/2009 12:28:38 PM
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Nick_Drake
Posts: 601
Joined: 4/24/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
...I find that be amazing how that can equate 1 and ½ or 2 to ever = 3 ..With absolutely nothing to justify that math... at least I cannot find nor have been led to an example of that type of time keeping in the OT...
I mean.... sometimes the hour could mean a certain scenarios or ...the day of ...could mean a certain scenario in time... but 1 and 1/2 or 2 = 3
I mean unless Jesus meant something else by the saying... of being IN the belly of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights.... I wish someone would as least let us know what that something else is........
Graham gave other actual Biblical examples of this Jewish 'unequal' reckoning of time. Did you not read it? How could you miss it?
_____________________________
'This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Every wineskin should be filled with wine.' Jeremiah 13:12
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