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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/22/2009 11:01:37 PM
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zeke25
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Bluethread, post 457,
In the Bible calendar there are three different type of days. New moon days are part of the month, but they are not part of a week. A new moon day begins every month; therefore, day 1 is never part of a week. Therefore, days 2 through 8 are also the first week; 9 through 15 the second; 16 through 22 the third; and 23 through 29 the fourth week of a month. The next moon will either be a new moon or possibly two new moons in a row. If only one, then it will be the first of the next month; if two, then the first will be the 30th of the previous month (not part of a week), and the second will be the 1st of the following month and the pattern starts all over again. I can show you two Passovers that are show to be on the 14th of Abib in the sixth day of the week. Can you show me any date in the Bible that can be verified not to fit this pattern? I need to know if one exists. I have not found one.
Theo-Minor, post 459,
The "first of the sabbaths, is sheaf wave day after Passover, which is the first of the seven sabbaths (in this case seven weeks) that must be counted to reach, for Christians, Pentacost. That date is the 16th of Abib and the end of that week is the 22nd of Abib. This is the first complete week, six more to go, Leviticus 23:15. In the Textus Receptus, Mark 16:2 does not say "the first day of the week", it states "on the first of the sabbaths". And for good reason. By the way, praise Yahoshua, He is our sheaf wave offering. He has been raised from the day and is waved before the God of Heaven, and God of all that is seen and unseen. Father, do you accept this wave? Halleluiah! He accepts the sacrifice of the Son to pay for your sins and mine.
Theo-Minor post 460. If you insist that a day begins at sunset then you will never understand the sequence of events. The evidence for a new day beginning at sunrise is so overwhelming it is not even worth discussing. But show me a Scripture that you think supports a sunset theory for the beginning of the day and I will discuss that Scripture with you. And after you have been shown that this Scripture does not prove your point, then give me another Scripture. It is impossible for the Last Supper to be a Passover meal, Passover can only be on the afternoon of the 14th of Abib, approximately 3 PM. The Last Supper occurred in the late afternoon, probably early evening of the 12th. Mark and Luke support this sequence. Please show me a Scripture that you think refutes this. Or please give me the number of the post in this thread in which the Scriptures are given.
LoyalGypsy post 461,
Hello LG, For timing issues, since the Last Supper occurred on the evening of 12 Abib, then He could not have had a Passover meal with His disciples. And speaking of the full moon, it did not occur in Jerusalem until 15 Abib (and here is the kicker, it must be the 15 Abib of the Bible calendar, and it always falls on 15 Abib which began at sunrise, and after sunset the full moon can always be seen on the 15th of Abib - even today). Today is the 1st day of the 4th month. Today, after dark, there is no moon, it is a new moon day. On the 15th of this 4th month, it will be a full moon.
Post 463. Trying to use Julius' or Gregory's calendars just causes confusion. I couldn't find a Bible calendar anywhere, so I constructed one myself from the evidence of Scripture and with the help of the US Naval Observatory.
Nick_Drake post 464. If you're trying to find a reliable calendar, contact me on my email.
Theo-Minor post 470.
You said, "Jesus did not die on a Wednesday. Period. That hypothesis is based entirely upon speculation, it defies other scriptures." What Scripture does it defy? Please enlighten me.
LoyalGypsy post 473.
You said,"...I find that be amazing how that can equate 1 and ½ or 2 to ever = 3". Well said. My timeline, determined from the Scriptures does not make anything mathematically tweaked. It only disturbs those who have an agenda and want to insist that the Last Supper occurred on Passover, in spite of the evidence to the contrary.
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/22/2009 11:03:48 PM
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zeke25
Posts: 46
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Typo: that is raised from the dead, not day
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/22/2009 11:35:42 PM
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bob97
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quote:
Theo-Minor post 470.
You said, "Jesus did not die on a Wednesday. Period. That hypothesis is based entirely upon speculation, it defies other scriptures." What Scripture does it defy? Please enlighten me.
I think Theo will tell you that having Christ die on a Wednesday would have forced Christ to be presented in Jerusalem on Nissan 10, which would have been a Sabbath (Saturday). That the law would have prevented this because of the work involved. Therefore it could not have happened on that timeline.
Anyway that is what he has been expressing to me.
What no one has explained to me is the following. We know that down through the years, Nissan 10 has fallen on a weekly Sabbath and the lambs are always led into and presented on that day. How was this handled? Did the priest just put the work involved off until another day?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/22/2009 11:58:14 PM
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zeke25
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The problem with Nissan 10 falling on a sabbath is that, I assume, one is using the current Jewish calendar. The current Jewish calendar is corrupt. In the Bible calendar, which has a lot of similarities to the current Jewish calendar, Abib 10 is always on the 2nd day of a week. Do you have any Scriptures that show Nissan 10 is a sabbath? Or you are using the Jewish calendar tradition and not Scripture to arrive at that calculation.
Daniel 7:25, And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
The calendars, including Jewish, have been changed.
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/23/2009 12:06:04 AM
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bob97
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What are you saying zeke...that the first day of each Jewish month was a Sunday or day 1?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/23/2009 4:47:45 AM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zeke25
Bluethread, post 457,
In the Bible calendar there are three different type of days. New moon days are part of the month, but they are not part of a week. A new moon day begins every month; therefore, day 1 is never part of a week. Therefore, days 2 through 8 are also the first week; 9 through 15 the second; 16 through 22 the third; and 23 through 29 the fourth week of a month. The next moon will either be a new moon or possibly two new moons in a row. If only one, then it will be the first of the next month; if two, then the first will be the 30th of the previous month (not part of a week), and the second will be the 1st of the following month and the pattern starts all over again. I can show you two Passovers that are show to be on the 14th of Abib in the sixth day of the week. Can you show me any date in the Bible that can be verified not to fit this pattern? I need to know if one exists. I have not found one.
I have heard of this manner of calculating. However, there are two problems I find with it. First, the new moon is not no moon, but the renewed moon. Therefore, Rosh Chedesh can not be blown twice. When the first sliver of the moon is visable it is a specific point in time. Since the moon followes the earth's orbit and the first sliver occurs when the moon moves from between the sun and the earth, it is only visable at sunset, because one is blinde by the sun up until that time. After sunset it has followed the sun below the horizon. If a sliver is observed in the morning it would not have passed the sun and would be the last sliver. Therefore, the first full evening following the sighting of the first sliver is Rosh Chedesh.
The second problem is the presumption that the every day of a month must fall into a full week. This would then require some months to begin and/or end with weeks of more than seven days. This requirement is rabbinics from some of the minority schools. If you can find a reason in the Scriptures for there not to be less than seven days between Rosh Chedesh and the weekly Shabbat or for the weekly Shabbat not to also be a Rosh Chedesh, I would be glad to entertain that argument. However, I have never seen such a Scriptural justification for that view.
Oh yes, there is also the view that each month resets Shabbat as you state it above. I have heard of that, but the reseting of Shabbat every month does not seem to be reasonable without, again, clear Scriptural justification.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 6/23/2009 5:08:02 AM >
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/23/2009 6:54:19 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zeke25
Theo-Minor, post 459,
The "first of the sabbaths, is sheaf wave day after Passover, which is the first of the seven sabbaths (in this case seven weeks) that must be counted to reach, for Christians, Pentacost. That date is the 16th of Abib and the end of that week is the 22nd of Abib. This is the first complete week, six more to go, Leviticus 23:15. In the Textus Receptus, Mark 16:2 does not say "the first day of the week", it states "on the first of the sabbaths". And for good reason. By the way, praise Yahoshua, He is our sheaf wave offering. He has been raised from the day and is waved before the God of Heaven, and God of all that is seen and unseen. Father, do you accept this wave? Halleluiah! He accepts the sacrifice of the Son to pay for your sins and mine.
Zeke,
If you are trying to say that the phrase translated "first day of the week" actually means "first of the sabbaths" or equivalent to "first of a series of sabbaths," you are completely wrong. What was clear to me was a couple of posts from BookerG. The Greek simply will not allow it. Greek has about 4-5 declensions, depending on how they are classified. There are at least 4. Adjectives modifying nouns must agree together in the sentence. In addition, they must agree in number (singular/plural).
The word translated "first," as in "first of the week" (literally), does not modify "week." It cannot do so grammatically. It is impossible. Those who claim it does do not know Greek or they claim it means that in defiance of the Greek. I read an article by a fellow who knew Greek and Hebrew. He was forced to agree that the Greek didn't support him grammatically so he based his claim on Hebrew.
Anyway, "first" modifies the missing word "day," not the Greek word "sabbaton." The English translations which insert "day" are correct because the Greek reader would have understood that. We have parallels in English as well that are helpful to us: we say "I get paid on the first" or "your rent is due on the first" and we understand in context what is meant. If it is possibly ambiguous, we insert year, month, week and so forth in order to clarify. But we often have to clarify in English.
It means "first day of the week." My Greek English interlinear supports me, the interlinear part done by scholar Alfred Marshall. Thayer's Greek Lexicon. I would have to do some digging but I believe A.T. Robertson has something on it too. I have a link to an article done by a Seventh Day Adventist who does a detailed breakdown of the sentence in Greek.
We have been all through this before ad nauseam. I followed this particular line of argument a little more closely than other arguments. If this argument isn't enough, you will not be convinced. But there are other strong arguments that I have not followed as closely.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/23/2009 10:53:00 AM
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zeke25
Posts: 46
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The 1st day of each month is not part of a week. Technically, it would be best to have the first line of your calendar without seven days of division and just put day one on that line. I personally left the seven days of division on the line and placed the new moon day, the first day of the month, in the Saturday slot. But I could arbitrarily place it in any of the seven days. I'll probably get rid of the seven divisions in the future on the first line. I used the Saturday slot because a new moon day is not a work day. Work can be done, but it is just an extra day in a month that the worker gets a break.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
What are you saying zeke...that the first day of each Jewish month was a Sunday or day 1?
Bob
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/23/2009 11:09:16 AM
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zeke25
Posts: 46
Joined: 6/18/2009
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These scholars you have quoted are arguing with the Textus Receptus. That is their prerogative. I am not going to argue against the Textus Receptus. The simple fact is the phrase "on the first of the sabbaths" is there in Mark 16:2. It has a meaning that is directly connected to Leviticus 23:15. Lev. 23:15 instructs us how to count in order to reach Shava'ot for the Jews, which has become Pentacost for the Christians. The instructions are very specific about explaining what day the count should begin and what day the count should end. That is Old Testament. Now in Mark 16:2 the author (who is really the Holy Spirit) is merely explaining what day of the week it was and what day it was in history by using the phrase "on the first of the sabbaths". If you and your scholars do not want to count those days, then don't. I would prefer to be in agreement with the Textus Receptus and the Holy Spirit than to fight them. Besides, one must realize the spiritual significance of the use of this phrase in Mark 16:2. The Holy Spirit is pointing to the firstfruits of Pentacost. I actually think God is getting excited here. He knows that His Son made the sacrifice and He is anticipating His harvest of souls. I'm going to ride this train, take the one you want, that is your decision.
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: zeke25
Theo-Minor, post 459,
The "first of the sabbaths, is sheaf wave day after Passover, which is the first of the seven sabbaths (in this case seven weeks) that must be counted to reach, for Christians, Pentacost. That date is the 16th of Abib and the end of that week is the 22nd of Abib. This is the first complete week, six more to go, Leviticus 23:15. In the Textus Receptus, Mark 16:2 does not say "the first day of the week", it states "on the first of the sabbaths". And for good reason. By the way, praise Yahoshua, He is our sheaf wave offering. He has been raised from the day and is waved before the God of Heaven, and God of all that is seen and unseen. Father, do you accept this wave? Halleluiah! He accepts the sacrifice of the Son to pay for your sins and mine.
Zeke,
If you are trying to say that the phrase translated "first day of the week" actually means "first of the sabbaths" or equivalent to "first of a series of sabbaths," you are completely wrong. What was clear to me was a couple of posts from BookerG. The Greek simply will not allow it. Greek has about 4-5 declensions, depending on how they are classified. There are at least 4. Adjectives modifying nouns must agree together in the sentence. In addition, they must agree in number (singular/plural).
The word translated "first," as in "first of the week" (literally), does not modify "week." It cannot do so grammatically. It is impossible. Those who claim it does do not know Greek or they claim it means that in defiance of the Greek. I read an article by a fellow who knew Greek and Hebrew. He was forced to agree that the Greek didn't support him grammatically so he based his claim on Hebrew.
Anyway, "first" modifies the missing word "day," not the Greek word "sabbaton." The English translations which insert "day" are correct because the Greek reader would have understood that. We have parallels in English as well that are helpful to us: we say "I get paid on the first" or "your rent is due on the first" and we understand in context what is meant. If it is possibly ambiguous, we insert year, month, week and so forth in order to clarify. But we often have to clarify in English.
It means "first day of the week." My Greek English interlinear supports me, the interlinear part done by scholar Alfred Marshall. Thayer's Greek Lexicon. I would have to do some digging but I believe A.T. Robertson has something on it too. I have a link to an article done by a Seventh Day Adventist who does a detailed breakdown of the sentence in Greek.
We have been all through this before ad nauseam. I followed this particular line of argument a little more closely than other arguments. If this argument isn't enough, you will not be convinced. But there are other strong arguments that I have not followed as closely.
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/23/2009 11:31:03 AM
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zeke25
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I disagree. The new moon, by logic, would appear to be the day the first little sliver is seen. Even the US Naval Observatory would agree with you. But, Biblically, the new moon begins after the old moon has waned away. After the last sliver is seen, the next day, nothing is seen - because the new moon is now rebuilding (so to speak). Besides, I have been watching it. Every time there is one new moon day (a day that the moon cannot be seen), it is always the first of a new month. Every time there are two new moons in a row, the second one is counted as the first day of a new month. It never fails. That brings in line the 1/4 moons and the full moon, right on time, all the time, with the four sabbath (Saturdays) days of every month. And since a day begins at sunrise, I do not look for the moon until sunset, although sometimes we can see it in the bright of the day. The great part about it, I don't have to worry about the weather. The US Naval Observatory gives me all the accurate information all the time, right at my fingertips on the keyboard. But even this info can be faulty. US N.O. begins their day in Greenwich, England, and calls it UTC or GMT or Zulu time. Did you think God started the day and the new moon based on Greenwich, England, around 4000 BC? I thought about that for a minute, and said to myself, "Not"!
You said, "The second problem is the presumption that the every day of a month must fall into a full week." This is what I'm contending against. Not every day in a month must be part of a week. In fact, in the Bible calendar, every day does not fall into a week. The new moon days are not part of a week. There are only one or two new moon days per month, at the beginning of each month for sure, and sometimes one at the end of a month.
You said, "This would then require some months to begin and/or end with weeks of more than seven days."
All weeks are still seven days only. But new moon days will still be in the month, but not part of a seven day week.
As far a Scripture goes, I don't have time to dig into it right this minute, but one comes to mind off the top of my head. Joshua marching around Jericho. They marched for seven days and on the seventh day they fought. Do you think they marched on a weekly sabbath? I don't. They had strict rules. So either day one of the seven days of marching must have been a new moon day, or the last day could have been a new moon day. The bottom line is that there were seven days of marching and battling going on and none of those seven days could logically be considered a weekly sabbath. An extra day had to slip in there somewhere? Don't you agree?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: zeke25
Bluethread, post 457,
In the Bible calendar there are three different type of days. New moon days are part of the month, but they are not part of a week. A new moon day begins every month; therefore, day 1 is never part of a week. Therefore, days 2 through 8 are also the first week; 9 through 15 the second; 16 through 22 the third; and 23 through 29 the fourth week of a month. The next moon will either be a new moon or possibly two new moons in a row. If only one, then it will be the first of the next month; if two, then the first will be the 30th of the previous month (not part of a week), and the second will be the 1st of the following month and the pattern starts all over again. I can show you two Passovers that are show to be on the 14th of Abib in the sixth day of the week. Can you show me any date in the Bible that can be verified not to fit this pattern? I need to know if one exists. I have not found one.
I have heard of this manner of calculating. However, there are two problems I find with it. First, the new moon is not no moon, but the renewed moon. Therefore, Rosh Chedesh can not be blown twice. When the first sliver of the moon is visable it is a specific point in time. Since the moon followes the earth's orbit and the first sliver occurs when the moon moves from between the sun and the earth, it is only visable at sunset, because one is blinde by the sun up until that time. After sunset it has followed the sun below the horizon. If a sliver is observed in the morning it would not have passed the sun and would be the last sliver. Therefore, the first full evening following the sighting of the first sliver is Rosh Chedesh.
The second problem is the presumption that the every day of a month must fall into a full week. This would then require some months to begin and/or end with weeks of more than seven days. This requirement is rabbinics from some of the minority schools. If you can find a reason in the Scriptures for there not to be less than seven days between Rosh Chedesh and the weekly Shabbat or for the weekly Shabbat not to also be a Rosh Chedesh, I would be glad to entertain that argument. However, I have never seen such a Scriptural justification for that view.
Oh yes, there is also the view that each month resets Shabbat as you state it above. I have heard of that, but the reseting of Shabbat every month does not seem to be reasonable without, again, clear Scriptural justification.
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/23/2009 11:46:44 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2923
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zeke25
I would prefer to be in agreement with the Textus Receptus and the Holy Spirit than to fight them.
This is a backhanded way of saying someone's view is heretical. The people on the other side of the argument believe they are being lead by Adonai's Spirit also. Your way of interpreting Mark 16:2 is not necessarily what Adonai's Spirit meant to communicate through Mark. If you wish to say that your interpretation is the only one that seems to make sense, that is one thing. However, to say that the interpretation you present is THE interpretation is to set yourself up in the place of a prophet. Are you willing to literally bet your life on this view?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/23/2009 12:15:08 PM
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BookerG
Posts: 163
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First, the only difference between the Textus Receptus and the Greek manuscripts I used is a genitive, "early morning OF the first day of the week" instead of a dative, "early morning ON the first day of the week." The First is still feminine, "Day One" of the week, not neuter "First of the Sabbaths."
Secondly, It looks to me like Leviticus 23:15 clearly rules out your calendar.
"From the day after the Sabbath, the day you brought the sheaf of the wave offering, count off seven full weeks. Count off fifty days up to the day after the seventh Sabbath, and then present an offering of new grain to the Lord." So the Feast of Weeks starts on the day after the Sabbath. Fifty days later, counted inclusively, is also the day after the Sabbath. If the days are reset every month, that's not possible.
Third, you might be able to rely on the US Naval Observatory, but the ancients didn't. So when the weather was cloudy, how was anybody supposed to know when the Sabbath day was? In later Jewish history, they could establish an "official" calendar based on lunar sightings by priests in Jerusalem. But what about before the Temple was built, before David captured Jerusalem? Before the flood, for example, did everybody have a different calendar, and everybody have a different day of rest?
"And since a day begins at sunrise, I do not look for the moon until sunset," So you don't actually know if today's a Sabbath Day until the day is over?
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/23/2009 2:29:07 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2923
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BookerG
First, the only difference between the Textus Receptus and the Greek manuscripts I used is a genitive, "early morning OF the first day of the week" instead of a dative, "early morning ON the first day of the week." The First is still feminine, "Day One" of the week, not neuter "First of the Sabbaths."
Secondly, It looks to me like Leviticus 23:15 clearly rules out your calendar.
"From the day after the Sabbath, the day you brought the sheaf of the wave offering, count off seven full weeks. Count off fifty days up to the day after the seventh Sabbath, and then present an offering of new grain to the Lord." So the Feast of Weeks starts on the day after the Sabbath. Fifty days later, counted inclusively, is also the day after the Sabbath. If the days are reset every month, that's not possible.
Third, you might be able to rely on the US Naval Observatory, but the ancients didn't. So when the weather was cloudy, how was anybody supposed to know when the Sabbath day was? In later Jewish history, they could establish an "official" calendar based on lunar sightings by priests in Jerusalem. But what about before the Temple was built, before David captured Jerusalem? Before the flood, for example, did everybody have a different calendar, and everybody have a different day of rest?
"And since a day begins at sunrise, I do not look for the moon until sunset," So you don't actually know if today's a Sabbath Day until the day is over?
I'm not sure if you are talking to me, because this seems to be a mixed response. That said let me respond to a couple of things. First let me get the less complicated issue out of the way. In the wilderness, the observation would probably have been no problem because there are rarely totally overcast days in the Arabian peninsula, where I believe we wandered. By the time we entered the land some forty years of observation, with not much better to do, probably gave us a good idea of how to guess when it occured. As I stated earlier, I believe Rosh Chedesh would be the day following the trumpet blast, not the day of the blast, if it was observed before official start of the evening.
Regarding the Shabbos, yes, the use of the word Shabbat is at the core of the contoversy over the "counting of the omer". This word has been interpreted as weekly Shabbat, Holy Day or Week by various interpreters in various places.
Some see it as saying that the day after Shabbat(Pesach) is a Shabbat(Holy Day) and this or Pesach is the first day, which is followed by seven shabbos(weeks). This results in a one day difference of the observance of Shovuot(Pentecost) between these two views.
Others say that the Shabbat(Holy Day) is the day after Shabbat(weekly) no matter how many days that is from Shabbat(Pesach). This view makes Shavuot(Pentecost) always fall on the first day of the week, which creates a variance of up to seven days from the prior two views.
Now, the "reset" view adds yet another factor to the mix. Is the Shabbat(Holy Day) always the day following Shabbat(Pesach), not because it is designated so, but because it is a Shabbat(weekly) due to the reseting mechanism of Rosh Chedesh? I think those who hold this view do so because it makes the numbering of the days of the month line up better with the "counting of the omer". However, I see nothing in the Scriptures that makes this necessary.
Of these views I favor the view that Shavuot(Pentecost) is fifty days after Pesach and that can be any day of the week. I do not include Pesach in the counting because, I believe "the Shabbat(Holy Day) that you brought the sheaf" is the day after Pesach and "the morrow after " is day two of the count.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 6/23/2009 3:36:32 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/23/2009 5:20:23 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zeke25
These scholars you have quoted are arguing with the Textus Receptus. That is their prerogative. I am not going to argue against the Textus Receptus. The simple fact is the phrase "on the first of the sabbaths" is there in Mark 16:2. It has a meaning that is directly connected to Leviticus 23:15. Lev. 23:15 instructs us how to count in order to reach Shava'ot for the Jews, which has become Pentacost for the Christians. The instructions are very specific about explaining what day the count should begin and what day the count should end. That is Old Testament. Now in Mark 16:2 the author (who is really the Holy Spirit) is merely explaining what day of the week it was and what day it was in history by using the phrase "on the first of the sabbaths". If you and your scholars do not want to count those days, then don't. I would prefer to be in agreement with the Textus Receptus and the Holy Spirit than to fight them. Besides, one must realize the spiritual significance of the use of this phrase in Mark 16:2. The Holy Spirit is pointing to the firstfruits of Pentacost. I actually think God is getting excited here. He knows that His Son made the sacrifice and He is anticipating His harvest of souls. I'm going to ride this train, take the one you want, that is your decision.
Sorry, Zeke,
No. It was not from the Textus Receptus. So I was not arguing textual variant stuff. Matthew, Mark and Luke all tells the events happened on Sunday. And my interlinear IS NOT from the Textus Receptus. The Greek text is Eberhard Nestle's Novum Testamentum Graece, 21st Edition. If you think that textual variants explains the problem, then you have to account for textual variants in Matthew, Mark and Luke and prove that there are any variants. This is first year Greek language stuff. Textual variation is no explanation.
Observe, if you have any clue regarding what the Greek says. The Greek says "first day of the week," no matter what is in Lev. 23:15.
Matt 28:1 "...the first/ [day]/ of [the] week..." (mian saBBatwn )
Mark 16:2 "...on the first/[day]/of the week..." (mia twn saBBatwn)
Luke 24:1 "...on the first/[day]/of the week..." (mia twn saBBatwn)
mian = feminine and accusative
mia = nominative or dative
twn = "the," nominative, masc., feminine, or neuter
saBBatwn = genitive plural.
saBBaton = nominative singular
http://www.remnant-prophecy.com/adv-pioneer-lib/USMITH/GREEKFAL.pdf
QUOTE
In what case and number is the word in Matt. 28:1? --It is in the genitive case, plural number, and so it is in every one of the eight texts where the first day of the week is named, except Mark 16:9, where it is in the genitive singular (sabbatau). What is the relation indicated by the genitive case? It shows the relation which is expressed in English by the word "of," so that whatever definition we give to sabbaton, it must be, "of the Sabbath;" if we call it "week," it must be "of the week."...There is no word expressed with which the adjective mian agrees, hence there must be some word understood, and to be supplied, to bring out the full sense of the passage. What can that word be? There is only one which can be suppllied, and that is hemeran, accusative, accusative singular of the feminine noun hemera, "day." Hence Greenfield in his Greek Testament, after the adjective "first" in all the eight text, refers to the margin where he says, "Supply hermera [day]." So in all these passages we have "first day' as a fixed fact; but first day of what?...
QUOTE
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 6/23/2009 7:26:04 PM >
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Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/23/2009 6:10:02 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
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Zeke,
Matt 28:1, Mark 16:2, and Luke 24:1 relate historical narration of events and any similarity of phrasing to Leviticus 23 is merely coincidental. Besides, Leviticus 23 was written originally in Hebrew. The gospels were written in Greek. They narrate the events of either eyewitnesses or of information gathered from witnesses.
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Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/23/2009 6:13:17 PM
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zeke25
Posts: 46
Joined: 6/18/2009
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BookerG,
I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from. My copy of the Textus Receptus shows on the first of the sabbaths, not on the first of the week.
If the ancient observers had a bad weather day, it all worked out in the end. It would have been self correcting eventually.
Actually Lev. 23:15 doesn't say to count off 50 days. It specifically says to count of seven complete sabbaths, and Lev. 23:16 gives additional instructions. But neither instruction tells one to count 50 inclusive calendar days. This is why the two instructions are given as they are. Both instructions must be followed exactly or one does not arrive at the required day, especially with those pesky little new moon days in there that do not get counted.
The ancient's didn't know if the new moon started until the end of the day, that is correct. But, of course, they were fully anticipating it. After all, didn't David say in 1 Samual 20:5, "And David said unto Jonathan, Behold, to morrow is the new moon, and I should not fail to sit with the king at meat: but let me go, that I may hide myself in the field unto the third day at even." David didn't have the US N.O., but I do and it sure is helpful. 
zeke25
quote:
ORIGINAL: BookerG
First, the only difference between the Textus Receptus and the Greek manuscripts I used is a genitive, "early morning OF the first day of the week" instead of a dative, "early morning ON the first day of the week." The First is still feminine, "Day One" of the week, not neuter "First of the Sabbaths."
Secondly, It looks to me like Leviticus 23:15 clearly rules out your calendar.
"From the day after the Sabbath, the day you brought the sheaf of the wave offering, count off seven full weeks. Count off fifty days up to the day after the seventh Sabbath, and then present an offering of new grain to the Lord." So the Feast of Weeks starts on the day after the Sabbath. Fifty days later, counted inclusively, is also the day after the Sabbath. If the days are reset every month, that's not possible.
Third, you might be able to rely on the US Naval Observatory, but the ancients didn't. So when the weather was cloudy, how was anybody supposed to know when the Sabbath day was? In later Jewish history, they could establish an "official" calendar based on lunar sightings by priests in Jerusalem. But what about before the Temple was built, before David captured Jerusalem? Before the flood, for example, did everybody have a different calendar, and everybody have a different day of rest?
"And since a day begins at sunrise, I do not look for the moon until sunset," So you don't actually know if today's a Sabbath Day until the day is over?
< Message edited by zeke25 -- 6/23/2009 6:36:35 PM >
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/23/2009 6:55:02 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2923
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zeke25
Actually Lev. 23:15 doesn't say to count off 50 days. It specifically says to count of seven complete sabbaths, and Lev. 23:16 gives additional instructions.
What of the three usages of the term Shabbat (weekday, Holy Day and week)?
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/23/2009 7:22:54 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zeke25
BookerG,
I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from. My copy of the Textus Receptus shows on the first of the sabbaths, not on the first of the week.
The Greek word saBBatwn can mean either "week" or "Sabbath." I was taught that in Greek class. Its meaning is determined by the immediate context, not by the farthest unrelated usage you can find. AGAIN, it has two different meanings.
There's nothing peculiar about the Textus Receptus here. I am not aware of any textual variant. The notes in my NET Bible are pretty good about identifying textual variants but none are mentioned in the notes.
For what it's worth, my interlinear says "one of the sabbaths, = first day of the week" in Matthew 28:1. It is an idiom. That means it is a non-literal usage of a term. Idioms are present in all languages. Anyone or any source which tells you it means "first of the sabbaths" or "first of the sabbaths" is basing it on ignorance. This is first year Greek stuff.
There's no mystery here, no attempt to pull the wool over our eyes. No scholarship deception. The NIV, KJV, NASB, ESB all tell us that Matt 28:1, Mark 16:2 and Luke 24:1 list the events of resurrection morning as having happened on the first day of the week, i.e. Sunday.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/23/2009 7:25:28 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2923
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zeke25
I disagree. The new moon, by logic, would appear to be the day the first little sliver is seen. Even the US Naval Observatory would agree with you. But, Biblically, the new moon begins after the old moon has waned away. After the last sliver is seen, the next day, nothing is seen - because the new moon is now rebuilding (so to speak). Besides, I have been watching it. Every time there is one new moon day (a day that the moon cannot be seen), it is always the first of a new month. Every time there are two new moons in a row, the second one is counted as the first day of a new month. It never fails. That brings in line the 1/4 moons and the full moon, right on time, all the time, with the four sabbath (Saturdays) days of every month. And since a day begins at sunrise, I do not look for the moon until sunset, although sometimes we can see it in the bright of the day. The great part about it, I don't have to worry about the weather. The US Naval Observatory gives me all the accurate information all the time, right at my fingertips on the keyboard. But even this info can be faulty. US N.O. begins their day in Greenwich, England, and calls it UTC or GMT or Zulu time. Did you think God started the day and the new moon based on Greenwich, England, around 4000 BC? I thought about that for a minute, and said to myself, "Not"!
Again the "new" moon is not no moon. As you yourself state, the first observable sliver. This can only happen once. Once it is observed, it is no longer "new", but is waxing. I made the point about the morning moon. This is the waining moon and not the "new" moon. I also, pointed out that this view matches up the days of the month with the days of the week. However, as I also said, there is nothing in the Scriptures that requires this.
quote:
You said, "The second problem is the presumption that the every day of a month must fall into a full week." This is what I'm contending against. Not every day in a month must be part of a week. In fact, in the Bible calendar, every day does not fall into a week. The new moon days are not part of a week. There are only one or two new moon days per month, at the beginning of each month for sure, and sometimes one at the end of a month. You said, "This would then require some months to begin and/or end with weeks of more than seven days."
All weeks are still seven days only. But new moon days will still be in the month, but not part of a seven day week.
Ok, I considered that, but chose the other option, since this is not my contention. Sorry, I chose wrong. This leaves a day or two each month that is not part of any month. As I said before, this appears to have been a view held by a distinct minority even among the followers of simple judaism. Also, there appears to be little biblical support.
quote:
As far a Scripture goes, I don't have time to dig into it right this minute, but one comes to mind off the top of my head. Joshua marching around Jericho. They marched for seven days and on the seventh day they fought. Do you think they marched on a weekly sabbath? I don't. They had strict rules. So either day one of the seven days of marching must have been a new moon day, or the last day could have been a new moon day. The bottom line is that there were seven days of marching and battling going on and none of those seven days could logically be considered a weekly sabbath. An extra day had to slip in there somewhere? Don't you agree?
No I do not agree. Anything that does not violate Adonai's character can be done on Shabbat if it is a direct commandment. (Mt 12:5) "(H)aven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent?" The priests make sacrifice on Shabbat by Adonai's direction and we marched Yericho for seven days by Adonai direction.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/23/2009 8:23:25 PM
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BookerG
Posts: 163
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What I’m getting at is that all Greek texts, including the Textus Receptus, have the same phrase. Mia twn Sabbatwn. Mia means one, not first. It’s feminine, not neuter. For the translation, “First of the Sabbaths,” to work, that would imply the first Sabbath of multiple Sabbaths. But Sabbath is neuter, so “first” would also have to be neuter. And they would not use the word “one” they would use the word “first.” It would be prwton twn sabbatwn.
Instead, Mia twn Sabbatwn, “Day one of sabbaths” was the standard way to say the first day of the week. In Hebrew it was echad b:shabbatoth (the Hebrew says “(day) one in weeks” instead of “(day) one of weeks.” But it’s the same thought. The word day is implied.).
From my reading, it seems that when the Jews wanted to say “week,” if they were referring to a calendar week (Sunday thru Saturday), they said shabbat; if they just wanted to talk about a week, any period of seven days, they said shabuoth (“sevens”). So the Feast of Weeks in Hebrew is normally called the Feast of Sevens, not Feast of Sabbaths. Yet Lev. 23:15 talks about seven Shabbatoth, not seven Shabuoth.
“From the day after the Sabbath, the day you brought the sheaf of the wave offering, count off seven full weeks. Count off fifty days up to the day after the seventh Sabbath, and then present an offering of new grain to the Lord.”
If “the seventh Sabbath” means the seventh Sabbath Day, then I don’t see how any counting makes sense except if this is a regular Sabbath Day, with the feast beginning and ending on Sunday. And a resettable calendar would not be fifty days.
If “the seventh Sabbath” means the seventh week, it seems like an awkward way to say it, “the day after the seventh week,” both because he didn’t say “the day after the seventh seven,” and since that would make these verses doubly redundant, “count off seven full weeks,” “count off fifty days,” “the day after the seventh week.”
The phrase, count off seven “full weeks,” (literally seven complete Sabbaths) seems like it would most naturally mean seven complete calendar weeks, Sunday thru Saturday. If it could start on any day, I’d just expect “seven sevens.” It would be less ambiguous or prone to misinterpretation, and no need to say “full.”
But if the day after the seventh Sabbath means Sunday, the whole statement comes across as much less redundant, since the third repetition is not just saying the same thing one more time, but is specifying the day of the week when the offering will be brought.
If I’m missing something, I’m sure someone will tell me, but I don’t see that God ever said the waving of the sheaf must be on Abib 16. It just says when you harvest, on the day after the sabbath, bring the priest a sheaf.
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/23/2009 8:29:39 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2227
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Anything that does not violate Adonai's character can be done on Shabbat if it is a direct commandment. (Mt 12:5) "(H)aven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent?" The priests make sacrifice on Shabbat by Adonai's direction and we marched Yericho for seven days by Adonai direction.
Greetings
I mean in the beginning in Genesis 1:1 to the 7th day in the creation account... was Sabbath to Sabbath
Isaiah
66:23
And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD
Then... for example when Jesus said that his hour had come and gave praise to the Father that he may be glorified... then if Jesus entry into Jerusalem was on a Sabbath on the 10th of Abib ... that would also be by Adonai's direction ...correct
LG
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Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/23/2009 10:16:36 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2227
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
There's no mystery here, no attempt to pull the wool over our eyes. No scholarship deception. The NIV, KJV, NASB, ESB all tell us that Matt 28:1, Mark 16:2 and Luke 24:1 list the events of resurrection morning as having happened on the first day of the week, i.e. Sunday.
Greetings
quote:
Matt 28:1, Mark 16:2 and Luke 24:1 list the events of resurrection morning as having happened on the first day of the week,
Perhaps ....but the problem is He always existed… in "His" resurrection He returned to the eternal = that which always existed… before time began = alpha….
and will continue exist “after” time comes to an end = the Omega (infinite)
….Time was established in the midst thereof … by division
Alpha Omega
Alpha (TIME) Omega
Alpha Omega = is infinite… always existed = Gen 1:1-5
Alpha (TIME) Omega =Gen 1:6 = is finite = the first day “of creation”
The evening and the morning …were… the first day,
The Lord always existed…. the evening and the morning represents the limitations of time as it reiterates and comes full circle from that which existed beforehand !!
And in that order it establishes the NEXT day…
Moses did not start Gen 1:1 by saying in the evening… he said =“in the beginning”, because it represented the infinite... = 0= Alpha or that which existed before time began.
“after” the beginning Alpha /and the end= the Omega came full circle…
……God “divided” the light from the darkness… and the NEXT day as it is defined in time is the evening the Alpha and the morning the Omega … from that which existed beforehand.
Therefore evening is always “the beginning”… of the NEXT day in the Biblical Hebrew scriptures …
The evening and the morning...were… the first day, = (moving forward)
The events of resurrection morning as having happened on the first day of the week, i.e. Sunday.
Suggesting “His" resurrection was on the first day of the week… contradicts the prophecy as it was established in the beginning…. and places the same constraints of time on the infinite thereby dipicting Christ as still being nailed to the cross.
….He revealed Himself resurrected …“in the flesh”… to (US) = the finite… “On” the first day of the week… but that was not HIS resurrection.
It already was given to us to know since the beginning... that “His resurrection” is a Sabbath …because in both in Gen 1:1-5 and on the 7th day accounts in Genesis = from Sabbath to Sabbath.. There is “no mention” of the evening and the morning… because Sabbath represents the infinite and eternal existence… both ….“Before” and “after” …time
= The Alpha and the Omega… where there is absolutely “no constraints” of time.
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/23/2009 10:22:57 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
......Alpha Omega
Alpha (TIME) Omega
Alpha Omega = is infinite… always existed = Gen 1:1-5
Alpha (TIME) Omega =Gen 1:6 = is finite = the first day “of creation”
The evening and the morning …were… the first day,
The Lord always existed…. the evening and the morning represents the limitations of time as it reiterates and comes full circle from that which existed beforehand !!
And in that order it establishes the NEXT day…
Moses did not start Gen 1:1 by saying in the evening… he said =“in the beginning”, because it represented the infinite... = 0= Alpha or that which existed before time began.
“after” the beginning Alpha /and the end= the Omega came full circle…
……God “divided” the light from the darkness… and the NEXT day as it is defined in time is the evening the Alpha and the morning the Omega … from that which existed beforehand.....LG
You frequently subscribe to many esoteric interpretations of scripture. But it's nonsense.
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Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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