|
|
|
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/24/2009 12:06:04 AM
|
|
|
Theo-Minor
Posts: 285
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: online
|
zeke25: -
I would like to say, as politely-intentioned as possible, that you don't know the first thing about this topic. I don't know where you got your information, how long you have been allegedly studying it, or how you came to your conclusions, but you are so wrong on so many things that I don't have words to adequately express just how wrong you really are.
• New moon days are part of a/the week.
• There are never "two new moons in a row" on two consecutive days. It is either seen, consecrated, and announced on the 29th, or it is assumed to be in the sky and is assumed to be consecrated by heaven on the 30th.
• The Bible, great as it is, is not the only source for verifying things like dates. There are history books and other resources available. The Talmud would be one such resource. Josephus and Philo, both contemporaries of Jesus, would be two others.
• Please note Acts 20:1-7. Paul went to Troas and waited for the others, who didn't sail until after the days of unleavened bread. They met him in Troas five days later, and then tarried seven days with Paul and the others. Then, upon the first day of the week, Paul came and preached. First day of the week - mia twn Sabbatwn - the very same expression, and it is not used in the context of the waving of the sheaf.
• Don't bother quoting the Textus Receptus as a primary source. Erasmus himself loaded it full of notes when he compiled it, testifying to its precarious quality. While I have all due respect for it, modern copies based upon older and more widely available texts is superior according to the principles of textual criticism.
• A Jewish day does begin at sunset. I encourage you to read the Talmud concerning this.
• Genesis 1:5 "... And the evening and the morning were the first day." The Jewish day starts at sunset. You can also find a ton of information on this topic in the Talmud.
• Matthew 26:19 "And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover." Mark 14:16 "And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover." Luke 22:8, 13 "And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat. ... And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover."
• The Last Supper did not occur on the 12th. Mark 14:12 and Luke 22:7 both state that the Last Supper was the day the passover was killed. Please refer to Exodus 12:6. The passover was slain on the 14th day. Mark and Luke do not support your "sequence."
• You can't construct a calendar of your own without first understanding the culture.
• Regardless of the calendar used, the days of the week have gone forward uninterrupted since the days of Jesus. The dates on various calendars don't have to match. You can have a Julian April 23rd concurrent with an Egyptian Phamenoth 25th and a Hebrew Nissan 15th. And all three can fall on a Friday. So stop trying to confuse the issue with this Julian/Gregory talk.
• If Jesus died on Wednesday, the 14th of Nissan, then Jesus would have ridden an animal on the sabbath. That was against the law. If Jesus died on Thursday, the 15th of Nissan, the same is the case. If Jesus died on Wednesday, the 15th of Nissan, then there would have been commerce in the temple complex on the sabbath. That, too, was against the law.
• The 1 1/2 - 2 days equating to three days is not something that is "tweaked." That was the way they counted. I encourage you to do some research into the matter.
bob97: -
Temple service superceded the sabbath. There is actually quite a bit of discussion in the Talmud on the subject. The Jews themselves questioned whether or not they should "skip" the passover rituals when the 14th fell on the sabbath. But they determined that the negative commandment to do no work on the sabbath could not negate an obligatory command, along the same lines as circumcizing a male child on the eighth day, which also superceded the sabbath as an obligatory commandment.
Oddly enough, one of the amusing compromises they made was the tradition that arose out of that debate. The Jews (the pilgrims) would bring their sheep with the knife (for the sacrifice) stuck into the wool so they wouldn't even have to carry the knife.
zeke25: -
I am not using the current Jewish calendar. I am using astronomy and new moons, just as the Jews did in the days of Jesus.
Bluethread: -
You are almost right. If the sliver (the molad) was seen in the evening, that evening was the beginning of the 1st of the month. If it was seen the following day during the daylight hours (before sunset), then it was assumed that the crescent must have been visible (but missed) the night before, and the previous evening was considered the start of the new month. This is likely due to angular separation and other factors, which would have prevented the crescent from being visible during the day time on the first day of its visibility.
zeke25: -
• The new moon is when the first sliver is seen. It is called the molad. The Beth Din even offered free dinner for witnesses claiming to have seen the molad. They couldn't get dinner for seeing nothing.
• Jericho is a bad example. It doesn't say what day of the week it was. And depending upon the size of the city, it may have been perfectly lawful for them to walk once around the city each day.
LoyalGypsy: -
The "work" that Jesus "supposedly did" wasn't the work Jesus did. It was the work the donkey would have had to do. It was unlawful to burden an animal on the sabbath.
quote:
I mean if the city was still maintaining the same structure as Moses commanded the tribes who were to take up positions surrounding the tabernacle.... it would be a very long walk for some to come to the temple on the Sabbath and present sacrifices that they had to bring with them.
You will note that the gospels refer to Bethany as a "sabbath's day journey." There was a certain distance of permissible travel on the sabbath, and erubs helped to extend that distance.
quote:
Plus the fact that the very first thing Jesus did after the entry was to go directly to the temple and performed an amazing amount of work by tossing out the money changers who were selling sacrifices at an inflated rates for that very reason.
Ummmmm ... you are proving my point. The Biblical timeline doesn't place that event on the Sabbath. The Wednesday and Thursday crucifixion timelines do. That's what I've been trying to say for quite some time now.
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/24/2009 12:47:41 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 2923
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Anything that does not violate Adonai's character can be done on Shabbat if it is a direct commandment. (Mt 12:5) "(H)aven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent?" The priests make sacrifice on Shabbat by Adonai's direction and we marched Yericho for seven days by Adonai direction.
Greetings
I mean in the beginning in Genesis 1:1 to the 7th day in the creation account... was Sabbath to Sabbath
Isaiah
66:23
And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD
Then... for example when Jesus said that his hour had come and gave praise to the Father that he may be glorified... then if Jesus entry into Jerusalem was on a Sabbath on the 10th of Abib ... that would also be by Adonai's direction ...correct
LG
You seem to understand my meaning. However, the problem with the entry example is this would be inside knowledge. Saying Yeshua, as Adonai, directed the disciples to "profain" Shabbat in a way it was not done before, puts us on dangerious ground hermenutically. This kind of thinking leads to the "Jesus changed the Law" stuff.
Yeshua set aside His authority as Adonai while he was on earth. He did only what Abba Adonai told Him to do. If he were to do something that was not according to HaTorah, He would not be without blemmish and would be an unacceptable sacrifice.
Now, even if we accept the idea that all bets are off and whatever Yeshua does is right without regard to HaTorah, because He is Adonai, how would we(those observing the lamb) know that. If the"'triumphal entry" is indeed the beginning of the rabbinic observation procedure, on what is that observation based? Is it not the Tanach and the rabbinics? Where is it in the Tanach or rabbinics that overrides the rabbinics of riding on Shabbat?
Also, if this were a violation of HaTorah or rabbinics, why was He not questioned about it? They questioned Him about the noisy crowd, but said nothing about riding the colt.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/24/2009 4:04:17 PM
|
|
|
Theo-Minor
Posts: 285
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: online
|
Again, this is precisely the point I have been trying to make. One simply cannot justify a hypothesis that necessitates sinful behavior from our Savior.
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/24/2009 4:07:18 PM
|
|
|
Theo-Minor
Posts: 285
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: online
|
I might also add that the entire salvation process was done within the bounds of the law. Jesus didn't change anything. He fulfilled it. Every part and piece of the salvation plan was guided by the law, caused by the law, accomplished through the law, etc. Even Christ's death was necessary because of the law, and the manner of his death was necessary because of the law.
Despite the ideas some may have that Jesus changed things or did things outside of the law, the fact is, it was all done completely by the law in order to accomplish an age of promise by faith.
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/24/2009 6:28:17 PM
|
|
|
zeke25
Posts: 46
Joined: 6/18/2009
Status: offline
|
Zeke25: I will insert my comments beneath yours.
Theo-Minor: I would like to say, as politely-intentioned as possible, that you don't know the first thing about this topic.
Z: Obviously I know the first thing about this topic or I wouldn't be trying to help others. So, since you are mistaken, and I do know the first thing, then you leave yourself open to be mistaken all the way up to the last thing.
T-M: I don't know where you got your information, how long you have been allegedly studying it, or how you came to your conclusions, but you are so wrong on so many things that I don't have words to adequately express just how wrong you really are.
Z: As I read your comments below, I agree with you, you do not have the words to adequately express how wrong I am, because I am not.
TM: • New moon days are part of a/the week.
Not.
TM: • There are never "two new moons in a row" on two consecutive days.
Z:Yes there are. Check a moon chart. Check the Bible calendar, if you can find one anywhere.
TM: It is either seen, consecrated, and announced on the 29th, or it is assumed to be in the sky and is assumed to be consecrated by heaven on the 30th.
• The Bible, great as it is, is not the only source for verifying things like dates.
Z: Of course we can check other sources, but if those other sources are in disagreement with the Bible, then those other sources are corrupted on that particular issue. The Talmud, Josephus and Philo do not have the same Author as the Bible.
TM: There are history books and other resources available. The Talmud would be one such resource. Josephus and Philo, both contemporaries of Jesus, would be two others.
• Please note Acts 20:1-7. Paul went to Troas and waited for the others, who didn't sail until after the days of unleavened bread. They met him in Troas five days later, and then tarried seven days with Paul and the others. Then, upon the first day of the week, Paul came and preached. First day of the week - mia twn Sabbatwn - the very same expression, and it is not used in the context of the waving of the sheaf.
Z: Why would it be? When Paul came to preach on the first day of the week, sheaf wave day was at least two weeks in the past.
TM:• Don't bother quoting the Textus Receptus as a primary source. Erasmus himself loaded it full of notes when he compiled it, testifying to its precarious quality. While I have all due respect for it, modern copies based upon older and more widely available texts is superior according to the principles of textual criticism.
Z: I and many other scholars disagree. The Textus Receptus from the Byzantine text base is our most reliable source, not the corrupt Alexandrian text base.
TM: • A Jewish day does begin at sunset. I encourage you to read the Talmud concerning this.
Z: I am not concerned with the Talmud. The Bible teaches a day begins at sunrise. The Talmud, if it teaches sunset, is incorrect on this issue.
TM: • Genesis 1:5 "... And the evening and the morning were the first day." The Jewish day starts at sunset. You can also find a ton of information on this topic in the Talmud.
Z: Genesis 1:5 is the first solid proof that a day starts at sunrise. Try looking at it again. If the first time around it doesn't strike a cord with you, then it repeats itself five more times for you.
TM: • Matthew 26:19 "And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover." Mark 14:16 "And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover." Luke 22:8, 13 "And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat. ... And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover."
Z: And how long did it take them to prepare the Passover? You do not know. It certainly didn't happen all in that same day. They were in a preparation day, two days prior to the Passover. One does not prepare the Passover in one afternoon. After all, they came to Jerusalem and the priests were going to start sacrificing thousands of lambs for everyone in a couple of days. They had no need to sacrifice their own, not that they couldn't have.
TM: • The Last Supper did not occur on the 12th. Mark 14:12 and Luke 22:7 both state that the Last Supper was the day the passover was killed.
Z: Mk 14:12 and Lk 22:7 did not say that the Passover was killed that day. "when they killed the passover" and "when the Passover must be killed" are descriptive phrase. These phrases were describing which day was being spoken of. They were not speaking of any of the 7 days of Unleavened Bread, they were speaking of the Passover Feast. And the word "first" in both of these Scriptures would make more sense if it was translated in our modern language of today. It should be translated as "before". This is consistent with the gospel of John which you conveniently leave out because it does not support your agenda. John 19:31 KJV, "The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away." In other words, He was already on the stake and it was still preparation day before the Passover.
I'm not even going to bother with the rest of your post. It's time for you to go back to the drawing board, unless your goal is not to learn anything. If your goal is to promote an erroneous agenda, then have a good time.
Zeke25
quote:
ORIGINAL: Theo-Minor
zeke25: -
I would like to say, as politely-intentioned as possible, that you don't know the first thing about this topic.
Obviously I know the first thing about this topic or I wouldn't be trying to instruct others. So, since you are mistaken, and I do know the first thing, then you leave yourself open to be mistaken all the way up to the last thing.
I don't know where you got your information, how long you have been allegedly studying it, or how you came to your conclusions, but you are so wrong on so many things that I don't have words to adequately express just how wrong you really are.
As I read your comments below, I agree with you, you do not have the words to adequately express how wrong I am, because I am not.
• New moon days are part of a/the week.
Not.
• There are never "two new moons in a row" on two consecutive days.
Yes there are. Check a moon chart. Check the Bible calendar, if you can find one anywhere.
It is either seen, consecrated, and announced on the 29th, or it is assumed to be in the sky and is assumed to be consecrated by heaven on the 30th.
• The Bible, great as it is, is not the only source for verifying things like dates.
Of course we can check other sources, but if those other sources are in disagreement with the Bible, then those other sources are corrupted on that particular issue. The Talmud, Josephus and Philo do not have the same Author as the Bible.
There are history books and other resources available. The Talmud would be one such resource. Josephus and Philo, both contemporaries of Jesus, would be two others.
• Please note Acts 20:1-7. Paul went to Troas and waited for the others, who didn't sail until after the days of unleavened bread. They met him in Troas five days later, and then tarried seven days with Paul and the others. Then, upon the first day of the week, Paul came and preached. First day of the week - mia twn Sabbatwn - the very same expression, and it is not used in the context of the waving of the sheaf.
Why would it be. When Paul came to preach on the first day of the week, sheaf wave day was at least two weeks in the past.
• Don't bother quoting the Textus Receptus as a primary source. Erasmus himself loaded it full of notes when he compiled it, testifying to its precarious quality. While I have all due respect for it, modern copies based upon older and more widely available texts is superior according to the principles of textual criticism.
I and many other scholars disagree. The Textus Receptus from the Byzantine text base is our most reliable source, not the corrupt Alexandrian text base.
• A Jewish day does begin at sunset. I encourage you to read the Talmud concerning this.
I am not concerned with the Talmud. The Bible teaches a day begins at sunrise. The Talmud, if it teaches sunset, is incorrect on this issue.
• Genesis 1:5 "... And the evening and the morning were the first day." The Jewish day starts at sunset. You can also find a ton of information on this topic in the Talmud.
Genesis 1:5 is the first solid proof that a day starts at sunrise. Try looking at it again. If the first time around doesn't strike a cord with you, then it repeats itself five more times for you.
• Matthew 26:19 "And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover." Mark 14:16 "And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover." Luke 22:8, 13 "And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat. ... And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover."
And how long did it take them to prepare the Passover? You do not know. It certainly didn't happen all in that same day. They were in a preparation day, two days prior to the Passover. One does not prepare the Passover in one afternoon. After all, they came to Jerusalem and the priests were going to start sacrificing thousands of lambs for everyone in a couple of days. They had no need to sacrifice their own, not that they couldn't have.
• The Last Supper did not occur on the 12th. Mark 14:12 and Luke 22:7 both state that the Last Supper was the day the passover was killed.
Mk 14:12 and Lk 22:7 did not same that the Passover was killed that day. "when they killed the passover" and "when the Passover must be killed" are descriptive phrase. These phrases were describing which day was being spoken of. They were not speaking of any of the 7 days of Unleavened Bread, they were speaking of the Passover Feast. And the word "first" in both of these Scriptures would make more sense if it was translated in our modern language of today. It should be translated as "before". This is consistent with the gospel of John which you conveniently leave out because it does not support your agenda. John 19:31 KJV, "The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away." In other words, He was already on the stake and it was still preparation day before the Passover.
I'm not even going to bother with the rest of your post. It's time for you to go back to the drawing board, unless your goal is not to learn anything. If your goal is to promote an erroneous agenda, then have a good time.
Zeke25
Please refer to Exodus 12:6. The passover was slain on the 14th day. Mark and Luke do not support your "sequence."
• You can't construct a calendar of your own without first understanding the culture.
• Regardless of the calendar used, the days of the week have gone forward uninterrupted since the days of Jesus. The dates on various calendars don't have to match. You can have a Julian April 23rd concurrent with an Egyptian Phamenoth 25th and a Hebrew Nissan 15th. And all three can fall on a Friday. So stop trying to confuse the issue with this Julian/Gregory talk.
• If Jesus died on Wednesday, the 14th of Nissan, then Jesus would have ridden an animal on the sabbath. That was against the law. If Jesus died on Thursday, the 15th of Nissan, the same is the case. If Jesus died on Wednesday, the 15th of Nissan, then there would have been commerce in the temple complex on the sabbath. That, too, was against the law.
• The 1 1/2 - 2 days equating to three days is not something that is "tweaked." That was the way they counted. I encourage you to do some research into the matter.
bob97: -
Temple service superceded the sabbath. There is actually quite a bit of discussion in the Talmud on the subject. The Jews themselves questioned whether or not they should "skip" the passover rituals when the 14th fell on the sabbath. But they determined that the negative commandment to do no work on the sabbath could not negate an obligatory command, along the same lines as circumcizing a male child on the eighth day, which also superceded the sabbath as an obligatory commandment.
Oddly enough, one of the amusing compromises they made was the tradition that arose out of that debate. The Jews (the pilgrims) would bring their sheep with the knife (for the sacrifice) stuck into the wool so they wouldn't even have to carry the knife.
zeke25: -
I am not using the current Jewish calendar. I am using astronomy and new moons, just as the Jews did in the days of Jesus.
Bluethread: -
You are almost right. If the sliver (the molad) was seen in the evening, that evening was the beginning of the 1st of the month. If it was seen the following day during the daylight hours (before sunset), then it was assumed that the crescent must have been visible (but missed) the night before, and the previous evening was considered the start of the new month. This is likely due to angular separation and other factors, which would have prevented the crescent from being visible during the day time on the first day of its visibility.
zeke25: -
• The new moon is when the first sliver is seen. It is called the molad. The Beth Din even offered free dinner for witnesses claiming to have seen the molad. They couldn't get dinner for seeing nothing.
• Jericho is a bad example. It doesn't say what day of the week it was. And depending upon the size of the city, it may have been perfectly lawful for them to walk once around the city each day.
LoyalGypsy: -
The "work" that Jesus "supposedly did" wasn't the work Jesus did. It was the work the donkey would have had to do. It was unlawful to burden an animal on the sabbath.
quote:
I mean if the city was still maintaining the same structure as Moses commanded the tribes who were to take up positions surrounding the tabernacle.... it would be a very long walk for some to come to the temple on the Sabbath and present sacrifices that they had to bring with them.
You will note that the gospels refer to Bethany as a "sabbath's day journey." There was a certain distance of permissible travel on the sabbath, and erubs helped to extend that distance.
quote:
Plus the fact that the very first thing Jesus did after the entry was to go directly to the temple and performed an amazing amount of work by tossing out the money changers who were selling sacrifices at an inflated rates for that very reason.
Ummmmm ... you are proving my point. The Biblical timeline doesn't place that event on the Sabbath. The Wednesday and Thursday crucifixion timelines do. That's what I've been trying to say for quite some time now.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/24/2009 6:42:49 PM
|
|
|
zeke25
Posts: 46
Joined: 6/18/2009
Status: offline
|
Let's face it. This blog has been at this subject for months and over 500 posts. And you still have not reached an agreement or understanding except to agree that no one knows the answers. The answers are known and available for those who are seeking truth. One must speculate that a deeper disruptive spirit is at work here: For some, the goal is never to find truth, rather the goal is to obstruct others from finding truth. If the shoe fits, wear it. It's the same with every chatroom I have ever visited: People are assigned to promote another agenda other than truth seeking.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/24/2009 7:23:13 PM
|
|
|
ta_mosquito
Posts: 10981
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
Status: offline
|
MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Please note TOS 6, which states the following: quote:
6. You will not harass, threaten, embarrass or distress users, either in the community itself or via personal email, phone, physical mail or in person. You will not engage in name-calling or personal attacks in the course of discussion or debate. You will not post inflammatory remarks simply for the purpose for evoking reaction or starting fights with other community members (Often referred to as "trolling"). Overall, promoting a spirit of divisiveness in the chat and forums community will not be tolerated.
- Attacking the character or motives of someone who differs with your view or denying that he or she is a Christian is unacceptable.
This thread (especially the last post) is getting dangerously close to crossing the line. Please tone it down.
Thanks!
Tricia
Forums Moderator
Please do not reply to this message within the forums or chat.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/24/2009 7:54:30 PM
|
|
|
Theo-Minor
Posts: 285
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: zeke25
Let's face it. This blog has been at this subject for months and over 500 posts. And you still have not reached an agreement or understanding except to agree that no one knows the answers. The answers are known and available for those who are seeking truth. One must speculate that a deeper disruptive spirit is at work here: For some, the goal is never to find truth, rather the goal is to obstruct others from finding truth. If the shoe fits, wear it. It's the same with every chatroom I have ever visited: People are assigned to promote another agenda other than truth seeking.
I agree that we have not reached an agreement, but I have had competent answers from the beginning. I have studied this topic extensively. If you are going to assume a "disruptive spirit," be careful where you determine its residence. I would also disagree with you that some have the goal of obstructing others from finding truth. The individuals who push incorrect information and fight tooth and nail to hold on to it are merely proud and unwilling to be wrong. And I'm not trying to promote any "agenda." I studied this topic from both sides with an open mind. I came to the conclusions I came to through the research of credible evidence. I didn't just make it up like you're doing.
quote:
Obviously I know the first thing about this topic or I wouldn't be trying to help others. So, since you are mistaken, and I do know the first thing, then you leave yourself open to be mistaken all the way up to the last thing.
Desire to help others doesn't make you right. Neither does posting faulty information make you right. You have to post correct information. You don't know what you're talking about. You are wrong across the board. And I was even going to originally say that you are "virtually" wrong across the board, but as I typed it, I realized that there wasn't a single thing that you were correct about. The modifier would have been a mistake.
quote:
Yes there are. Check a moon chart. Check the Bible calendar, if you can find one anywhere.
There is one day for the new moon. You are wrong. Provide evidence if you are going to push this issue.
quote:
Of course we can check other sources, but if those other sources are in disagreement with the Bible, then those other sources are corrupted on that particular issue. The Talmud, Josephus and Philo do not have the same Author as the Bible.
Who the authors were has no bearing on my point. Josephus was a first century Jew. So was Philo. And the Talmud is the oral tradition of the Rabbis, which Jesus would have studied (and that gospel evidence demonstrates he studied). By being contemporaries with Jesus, their information is credible. They lived it. They were eye-witnesses to the culture and the practices.
quote:
Why would it be? When Paul came to preach on the first day of the week, sheaf wave day was at least two weeks in the past.
This passage in Acts uses the same Greek construction of the first of the sabbaths used for the day of the resurrection. You argued that it meant that it was the first sabbath of the seven sabbaths in the count towards Pentecost. I am pointing out that you are incorrect. Paul and the others were more than two weeks past Passover, and the same phrase is used.
quote:
I and many other scholars disagree. The Textus Receptus from the Byzantine text base is our most reliable source, not the corrupt Alexandrian text base.
If you're a scholar, I'm a monkey. Where did you attend seminary? What degree do you have? Name a few prominent books on your shelf.
And there is no evidence one way or the other as to which text, the Byzantine or the Alexandrian, is more reliable. Let me say again that Erasmus made quite a few notes in the margin when he compiled the Textus Receptus, and his opinion was that there were quite a few variances to choose from in multiple instances. The "Received Text" is just as corrupt.
quote:
I am not concerned with the Talmud. The Bible teaches a day begins at sunrise. The Talmud, if it teaches sunset, is incorrect on this issue.
If the Talmud teaches that a day begins at sunset, then that's the life Jesus lived. He was a Jew, living in a Jewish culture, under Jewish authorities ... and that culture was a day that began at sunset.
quote:
And how long did it take them to prepare the Passover? You do not know. It certainly didn't happen all in that same day. They were in a preparation day, two days prior to the Passover. One does not prepare the Passover in one afternoon. After all, they came to Jerusalem and the priests were going to start sacrificing thousands of lambs for everyone in a couple of days. They had no need to sacrifice their own, not that they couldn't have.
It took them an afternoon to prepare the Passover. They were not in a preparation day two days prior to Passover. There were thousands of priests performing thousands of sacrifices. Or perhaps you've never heard of the twenty-four watches?
quote:
Mk 14:12 and Lk 22:7 did not say that the Passover was killed that day. "when they killed the passover" and "when the Passover must be killed" are descriptive phrase. These phrases were describing which day was being spoken of. They were not speaking of any of the 7 days of Unleavened Bread, they were speaking of the Passover Feast. And the word "first" in both of these Scriptures would make more sense if it was translated in our modern language of today. It should be translated as "before". This is consistent with the gospel of John which you conveniently leave out because it does not support your agenda. John 19:31 KJV, "The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away." In other words, He was already on the stake and it was still preparation day before the Passover.
Dude, you're just wrong. And since you can't understand any of the fundamentals of any of this, I won't bother trying to explain John to you.
quote:
I'm not even going to bother with the rest of your post. It's time for you to go back to the drawing board, unless your goal is not to learn anything. If your goal is to promote an erroneous agenda, then have a good time.
Actually, I'm trying to keep people like you from giving atheists and heretics ammunition. They use every excuse they can to tear down the Bible, and one of the most convenient arguments they have at their disposal is the inconsistency of the Bible, which is an argument made from stuff like this thread. People want to spout nonsense, and like the Miranda rights, anything we say can and will be used against us. It was that very thing that got me started on this topic in the first place. Folks like you exacerbate the problem.
But it seems that this bad doctrine concerning historical issues is like a weed. Every time you stamp it down, it comes right back up. And no amount of fertilizer can help the good grass to overcome it. I guess it's like Jesus said ... a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. It doesn't take long to infect a great mass.
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/24/2009 8:27:23 PM
|
|
|
LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2227
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Anything that does not violate Adonai's character can be done on Shabbat if it is a direct commandment. (Mt 12:5) "(H)aven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent?" The priests make sacrifice on Shabbat by Adonai's direction and we marched Yericho for seven days by Adonai direction.
Greetings
I mean in the beginning in Genesis 1:1 to the 7th day in the creation account... was Sabbath to Sabbath
Isaiah
66:23
And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD
Then... for example when Jesus said that his hour had come and gave praise to the Father that he may be glorified... then if Jesus entry into Jerusalem was on a Sabbath on the 10th of Abib ... that would also be by Adonai's direction ...correct
LG
You seem to understand my meaning. However, the problem with the entry example is this would be inside knowledge. Saying Yeshua, as Adonai, directed the disciples to "profane" Shabbat in a way it was not done before, puts us on dangerous ground hermeneutically. This kind of thinking leads to the "Jesus changed the Law" stuff.
Yeshua set aside His authority as Adonai while he was on earth. He did only what Abba Adonai told Him to do. If he were to do something that was not according to HaTorah, He would not be without blemish and would be an unacceptable sacrifice.
Now, even if we accept the idea that all bets are off and whatever Yeshua does is right without regard to HaTorah, because He is Adonai, how would we(those observing the lamb) know that. If the”‘ triumphal entry" is indeed the beginning of the rabbinic observation procedure, on what is that observation based? Is it not the Tanach and the rabbinics? Where is it in the Tanach or rabbinic’s that overrides the rabbinic’s of riding on Shabbat?
Also, if this were a violation of HaTorah or rabbinics, why was He not questioned about it? They questioned Him about the noisy crowd, but said nothing about riding the colt.
Greetings
quote:
You seem to understand my meaning. However, the problem with the entry example is this would be inside knowledge. Saying Yeshua, as Adonai, directed the disciples to "profane" Shabbat in a way it was not done before, puts us on dangerous ground hermeneutically.
Actually if would be like God asking Himself for permission and getting caught up in an authoritative catch 22..
Can you Imagine the universe in a bottleneck…I know my computer passes out when that happens, 
quote:
Saying Yeshua, as Adonai, directed the disciples to "profane" Shabbat in a way it was not done before, puts us on dangerous ground hermeneutically. Truthfully… the scripture doesn’t place Yeshua, as Adonai, directing the disciples to "profane" Shabbat
Of course not …
Jesus said specially.... that the Son of man will be betrayed and condemned…
…in the specific order…
17 Now Jesus, going up to Jerusalem, took the twelve disciples aside on the road and said to them, 18 "Behold, …“we”… are going up to Jerusalem,
and… “the Son of Man will be”… betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes;
and…. they will condemn …“Him”.. to death,
Truthfully, I don’t why they all ran like cowards…. 
quote:
If the” ‘triumphal entry" is indeed the beginning of the rabbinic observation procedure, on what is that observation based?
The beginning of the triumphal entry is based on and riding on a donkey, A colt, the foal of a donkey.
Zech 9:9
"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your King is coming to you; He is just and having salvation, Lowly and riding on a donkey, A colt, the foal of a donkey.
And like verse 17-18 above.... there is a specific order
But that order can only be understood by what is written here
3 And if anyone says anything to you, you shall say, 'The Lord has need of them,' = GOD
……and immediately he will send them."
…….4 All this was done that it might be fulfilled…. which was spoken by the prophet,
Truthfully there is no law concerning the fulfillment of prophecy on a Sabbath... especially when ones “life is in danger” (= of hell fire)
What The Lord had need of in verse 3 above concerning what was spoken by the prophet is…
.....It was the only thing given to the chief priests and to the scribes to have Jesus to condemn to death= Lowly and riding on a donkey, A colt, the foal of a donkey “on the Sabbath”
And according to the order in Zech the condemnation came after ... "His testimony = He is just and having salvation =Zech 9
64 Jesus said to him, "It is as you said.  ...Nevertheless,
…..I say to you, hereafter….. you will see the Son of Man “sitting (not on a donkey) BUT sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."”
= That Statement there sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven fulfilled what is written in Zech 9 as (He is just and having salvation) =
Which placed Him in The beginning of the”‘ triumphal entry on the Sabbath Lowly and “riding” (sitting)on a donkey, A colt, the foal of a donkey. on the Sabbath
That’s about all that was given to the chief priests and to the scribes
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/24/2009 9:35:14 PM
|
|
|
Theo-Minor
Posts: 285
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: online
|
Jesus did not profane the Sabbath to fulfill the prophecy.
You don't seem to understand that God does not break his own rules. We were condemned because he wouldn't break his own rules. We swore an oath to keep the law, and heaven and earth bore witness that if we did not keep the whole law, we would be cursed and die. God swore upon himself that if he drew his sword, he would not relent, but would punish those who hate him.
Because he swore on his own name, and even he could not take his name in vain, he was bound by his own oath to punish us, and deliver to us the curses and death that accompanied our own oath.
God does not violate the law. Our entire condemnation and salvation is hinged upon it.
Jesus did not burden an animal on the Sabbath day. That is a direct violation of one of the ten commandments, which specifically says not to burden your donkey.
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/25/2009 2:08:36 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 2923
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Theo-Minor
Jesus did not profane the Sabbath to fulfill the prophecy.
You don't seem to understand that God does not break his own rules. We were condemned because he wouldn't break his own rules. We swore an oath to keep the law, and heaven and earth bore witness that if we did not keep the whole law, we would be cursed and die. God swore upon himself that if he drew his sword, he would not relent, but would punish those who hate him.
Because he swore on his own name, and even he could not take his name in vain, he was bound by his own oath to punish us, and deliver to us the curses and death that accompanied our own oath.
God does not violate the law. Our entire condemnation and salvation is hinged upon it.
Jesus did not burden an animal on the Sabbath day. That is a direct violation of one of the ten commandments, which specifically says not to burden your donkey.
There are acceptable reasons to profane Shabbat as Yeshua points out with regard to the Priests. Yeshua seems to use the term to mean set aside. If one can come up with a proper justification, such as the priestly requirements, a commandment can be set aside for the purpose of a "greater" commandment. If the short ride can be shown to meet this standard, there is no violation. Again, there were many things that Yeshua was criticised for, but riding the colt is not one of them. If this were a violation of Shabbat, why was it not directly addressed?
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 6/25/2009 2:22:42 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/25/2009 7:20:59 PM
|
|
|
LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2227
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: Theo-Minor
Jesus did not profane the Sabbath to fulfill the prophecy.
You don't seem to understand that God does not break his own rules. We were condemned because he wouldn't break his own rules. We swore an oath to keep the law, and heaven and earth bore witness that if we did not keep the whole law, we would be cursed and die. God swore upon himself that if he drew his sword, he would not relent, but would punish those who hate him.
Because he swore on his own name, and even he could not take his name in vain, he was bound by his own oath to punish us, and deliver to us the curses and death that accompanied our own oath.
God does not violate the law. Our entire condemnation and salvation is hinged upon it.
Jesus did not burden an animal on the Sabbath day. That is a direct violation of one of the ten commandments, which specifically says not to burden your donkey.
There are acceptable reasons to profane Shabbat as Yeshua points out with regard to the Priests. Yeshua seems to use the term to mean set aside. If one can come up with a proper justification, such as the priestly requirements, a commandment can be set aside for the purpose of a "greater" commandment. If the short ride can be shown to meet this standard, there is no violation. Again, there were many things that Yeshua was criticised for, but riding the colt is not one of them. If this were a violation of Shabbat, why was it not directly addressed?
Greetings,
quote:
If this were a violation of Shabbat, why was it not directly addressed?
Well that’s why I raised up the key with fulfillment of Zech 9
3 And if anyone says anything to you, you shall say, 'The Lord has need of them,' = GOD
……and immediately he will send them."
…….4 All this was done that it might be fulfilled…. which was spoken by the prophet,
When Jesus mentioned 'The Lord has need of them, I don’t believe in that context he was speaking of Himself...
BUT.... that All "this" was done that it might be fulfilled…. which was spoken by the prophet
It wasn’t fulfilled until all that the Lord (God) had purposed to happen ...happened!.
... the chief priests and the scribes and the false witnesses had nothing according the law to condemn him with... but Jesus said that the Son of Man will be betrayed and hand over to them to be condemned ...and the only 1 witness at the time were the people shouting "Hosanna," (God save US)
it wasn’t until Jesus gave His testimony.... that placed Him riding... because a second witness had to be established.
I mean and any clown claiming to be messiah could have rode a the donkey and colt at any time and made claims to be messiah...but if that was all chief priests and the scribes had .. it wouldn’t be enough by (their) own law to condemn Him... unless it was on a Sabbath
And in like manner.... Jesus would have never been unjustly condemn by their law ...
And in addition... this statement here would have no meaning either ='The Lord "has need"... of them,'
BUT.... 'The Lord "had need"... of these animals (Plural) in meaning = 2 fulfillments.. Because it was For the purpose that it might be fulfilled…. which was spoken.. By the prophet, 2 fulfillments = 2 witnesses
and in this case the first was the entry and the second was a total condemnation of Jesus as messiah by the chief priests and the scribes to pave the way the cross,
Therefore Jesus =said ....'The Lord "had need"... of ...them
Nu 16:30
But if the Lord creates a new thing, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the pit, then you will understand that these men have rejected the Lord."
Isaiah 53:1-3
quote:
If one can come up with a proper justification, such as the priestly requirements, a commandment can be set aside for the purpose of a "greater" commandment.
That’s just it... ff it were on the Sabbath... the chief priests and the scribes had no justification according to Gods plan when Jesus entry fulfilled the prophecy of Zech 9
As we all know He did fulfill it ....then it was for the purpose of the "greater" commandment...
I don’t believe God would consider the law of Moses to trump His Prophetic Authority being that Moses wrote about it in the first place...and in like manner... give Jesus the knowledge beforehand concerning verse 3 the things 'The Lord had need of '
Whereby that greater commandment under Gods authority... was to accept His Son
Anyway one looks at ...Jesus was falsely accused to fulfill that scripture....... and even though it is not mentioned there...there seems to be more witness to the possible fact that the entry was on a Sabbath then not...
......not just based on the accusations against Jesus at His trial when the chief priests and the scribes etc... They were fishing for something that would condemn Him....
......they needed to cause the people “not to believe” Jesus was messiah... and to do that they had to squash the entry totally... and show Jesus was not messiah... by breaking Sabbath law
Which is why Jesus reiterated in like manner to him = them...they all heard it!
64 Jesus said to him, "It is as you said. ...Nevertheless, meant>>(because their actions fulfilled the prophecy)...Jesus said
…..”I say to you” ... “hereafter”….. = a prophecy in like manner
.....you will see the Son of Man “sitting” (not on a donkey) BUT sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."” = (Hosanna)
= the prophecy fulfilled
And as we all know among us who are saved..
That statement there... is absolutely correct.
It was a pretty amazing fulfillment depicting the Love of God for us that leads one to repentance... which trumps any law... Sabbath or otherwise...
Ro 8:39 - Show Context
nor height nor depth, “nor any other... created thing”, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
....One thing I know.... that if it were me who was given the sight to fulfill that prophecy... I would have turned tail and run.......
LG
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 6/25/2009 8:41:35 PM >
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/25/2009 9:47:26 PM
|
|
|
prophet
Posts: 689
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
Mark 14:12 and Luke 22:7 both state that the Last Supper was the day the passover was killed.
Not explicitly....only implied.
The account in John says otherwise.
It was after the Last Supper and Yeshua had just finished washing the feet of the disciples as described in John 13.
1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. 2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him; 3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;………………..
26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, F27 when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. 28 Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him. 29 For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor. 30 He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.
The key verse here is verse 29 which shows us that the apostles knew that the meal they had just eaten in the upper room was not the Passover. If it had been the Passover and they had just finished eating it, why would they even think that Judas was leaving to go and buy the necessary things they needed for the Passover meal? The Feast mentioned is the Passover Seder meal, which from the text is still future AFTER the Last Supper was finished. Therefore, they all knew that the Passover meal was eaten at twilight as the 14th of Nisan/Abib which was the following day.
If the Last supper = Passover, how can then Jesus satisfy the prophecy of the Passover Lamb?
< Message edited by prophet -- 6/25/2009 9:54:02 PM >
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/25/2009 9:52:34 PM
|
|
|
prophet
Posts: 689
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: Theo-Minor
Jesus did not profane the Sabbath to fulfill the prophecy.
You don't seem to understand that God does not break his own rules. We were condemned because he wouldn't break his own rules. We swore an oath to keep the law, and heaven and earth bore witness that if we did not keep the whole law, we would be cursed and die. God swore upon himself that if he drew his sword, he would not relent, but would punish those who hate him.
Because he swore on his own name, and even he could not take his name in vain, he was bound by his own oath to punish us, and deliver to us the curses and death that accompanied our own oath.
God does not violate the law. Our entire condemnation and salvation is hinged upon it.
Jesus did not burden an animal on the Sabbath day. That is a direct violation of one of the ten commandments, which specifically says not to burden your donkey.
There are acceptable reasons to profane Shabbat as Yeshua points out with regard to the Priests. Yeshua seems to use the term to mean set aside. If one can come up with a proper justification, such as the priestly requirements, a commandment can be set aside for the purpose of a "greater" commandment. If the short ride can be shown to meet this standard, there is no violation. Again, there were many things that Yeshua was criticised for, but riding the colt is not one of them. If this were a violation of Shabbat, why was it not directly addressed?
Amen. i suggest The Lord's fulfilment of prophecy is a greater requirement.
quote:
Zech 9:9 'Rejoice greatly O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem; behold, thy King comes to you... humble riding on a donkey, even on a colt, the foal of a donkey.'
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/25/2009 11:33:06 PM
|
|
|
BookerG
Posts: 163
Status: offline
|
quote:
The account in John says otherwise.
It was after the Last Supper and Yeshua had just finished washing the feet of the disciples as described in John 13.
1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. 2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him; 3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;………………..
26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, F27 when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. 28 Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him. 29 For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor. 30 He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.
The key verse here is verse 29 which shows us that the apostles knew that the meal they had just eaten in the upper room was not the Passover. If it had been the Passover and they had just finished eating it, why would they even think that Judas was leaving to go and buy the necessary things they needed for the Passover meal? The Feast mentioned is the Passover Seder meal, which from the text is still future AFTER the Last Supper was finished. Therefore, they all knew that the Passover meal was eaten at twilight as the 14th of Nisan/Abib which was the following day.
Verse one simply brings us to the moments right before the Passover Feast. A number of things will happen before the feast. Jesus will wash their feet. Then as the meal is just beginning, Judas will be identified as the betrayer. The giving of the sop was a way that a guest might be honored, with the host handing him the very first morsel to be eaten.
I think Luke’s Gospel makes it sound like the ID’ing came after the Lord’s Supper; but I think Luke just rearranged some of the conversations to combine discussions that took place before, during, and after the meal (chiding the disciples for arguing about who was greatest was before; predicting Peter’s denial was after. Luke just didn’t want all these other matters to interrupt his telling of the Lord’s Supper).
When Judas ran out, most of the disciples didn’t know what was going on. It was so completely unexpected that someone would leave right as they were beginning the Seder that some thought he had realized they needed some additional food. This was a very ritualistic meal with a very precise menu, herbs and sauces and symbolic dishes. If a single symbolic element was missing, it could spoil the whole feast. So, they thought, maybe he noticed something’s missing. That’s the only reason they could imagine why he’d leave before the Seder, to buy something for this very feast.
If this wasn’t the Passover, it wouldn’t make any sense. Judas suddenly rushes out of the room, and they think he suddenly had to go buy something for tomorrow’s supper? In the dark?
quote:
If the Last supper = Passover, how can then Jesus satisfy the prophecy of the Passover Lamb?
By giving the disciples his very body and blood in the sacrament.
If you think he can't possibly be the Passover Lamb unless he was sacrificed at the same time as the Passover lambs, then you must also think he had to be one year old, and he had to die in the Temple.
The key to the prophecy of the Passover lamb does not center around the time of day when the lamb died, but the time of night when the family gathers to ponder the Lord's salvation. Jesus gathered with his family, his disciples, to commemorate the sacrifice he was making for them.
Passover is the 15th. The lambs died in preparation on the 14th, because their death itself was not the prophecy. The prophecy was in the salvation that came on the 15th when the angel of death passed over the houses where the blood was painted. The 15th was the day of salvation. The 15th was when the blood saved us from death. The 15th was when the first born died, but God's people were spared. The 15th was when the people were set free. The 15th was when Jesus gave his disciples his body and blood, and the 15th was when he said, "It is finished," as our salvation was complete. The 15th. Passover.
"Jesus knew that the time had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he now showed them the full extent of his love." This meal, this entire night, the crucifixion and his death--taken as a whole, is his sacrifice, the full extent of his love.
He went through a 20 hour (give or take) ordeal for us. The lambs only suffered a brief moment. So the timing couldn't be identical. But this is the one time when the Israelites made a sacrifice in which it was not the dying lamb that was the symbol. It was the blood.
edit: I should add that your translation of verse 2 is not what the Greek says. The Greek says deipnou ginomenou. Deipnos means meal. Ginomai means to be, to happen, to come into existence. So the phrase means when the meal came to be, or when mealtime came. Not when it was over.
edit again: or was the lamb slain on the afternoon of the 13th, and the 14th was Passover Day? I get my Jewish calendar confused. You know what I meant.
< Message edited by BookerG -- 6/26/2009 1:29:13 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/26/2009 12:00:50 AM
|
|
|
Theo-Minor
Posts: 285
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
quote:
Mark 14:12 and Luke 22:7 both state that the Last Supper was the day the passover was killed.
Not explicitly....only implied.
The account in John says otherwise.
It was after the Last Supper and Yeshua had just finished washing the feet of the disciples as described in John 13.
1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. 2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him; 3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;………………..
26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, F27 when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. 28 Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him. 29 For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor. 30 He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.
The key verse here is verse 29 which shows us that the apostles knew that the meal they had just eaten in the upper room was not the Passover. If it had been the Passover and they had just finished eating it, why would they even think that Judas was leaving to go and buy the necessary things they needed for the Passover meal? The Feast mentioned is the Passover Seder meal, which from the text is still future AFTER the Last Supper was finished. Therefore, they all knew that the Passover meal was eaten at twilight as the 14th of Nisan/Abib which was the following day.
If the Last supper = Passover, how can then Jesus satisfy the prophecy of the Passover Lamb?
1) It is not implied. It is directly stated. It was the first day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. Please go read the cited passages.
2) No one ever said that Jesus had to "satisfy the prophecy of the Passover Lamb." That is a correlation people have put together given coincidental circumstances. The significance of the sacrifice and crucifixion can't be crammed into a little Passover-shaped box.
3) Jesus knew that his hour had come "before the feast of the Passover." That is not a conclusive passage. Jesus could have known his hour had come at 4 p.m., and the feast of the Passover could have taken place at 5 p.m., just to explain my meaning.
4) John does not nullify the Synoptics. The scriptural precedent is to establish truth in the mouth of two witnesses. All three Synoptics say the Last Supper was on the 14th. John only seems to differ. But if there were in fact a contradiction between them, we should err on the side of the Synoptics because there are three witnesses.
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/26/2009 12:06:12 AM
|
|
|
Theo-Minor
Posts: 285
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: BookerG
edit again: or was the lamb slain on the afternoon of the 13th, and the 14th was Passover Day? I get my Jewish calendar confused. You know what I meant.
You had it right. The lambs were slain on the 14th around 3 p.m. and eaten later that evening. The 15th was the official start of the Passover holiday (15th to the 21st).
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/26/2009 3:07:19 AM
|
|
|
prophet
Posts: 689
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
|
ORIGINAL: BookerG
quote:
The account in John says otherwise.
It was after the Last Supper and Yeshua had just finished washing the feet of the disciples as described in John 13.
1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. 2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him; 3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;………………..
26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, F27 when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. 28 Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him. 29 For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor. 30 He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.
The key verse here is verse 29 which shows us that the apostles knew that the meal they had just eaten in the upper room was not the Passover. If it had been the Passover and they had just finished eating it, why would they even think that Judas was leaving to go and buy the necessary things they needed for the Passover meal? The Feast mentioned is the Passover Seder meal, which from the text is still future AFTER the Last Supper was finished. Therefore, they all knew that the Passover meal was eaten at twilight as the 14th of Nisan/Abib which was the following day.
quote:
Verse one simply brings us to the moments right before the Passover Feast. A number of things will happen before the feast. Jesus will wash their feet. Then as the meal is just beginning, Judas will be identified as the betrayer. The giving of the sop was a way that a guest might be honored, with the host handing him the very first morsel to be eaten.
I think Luke’s Gospel makes it sound like the ID’ing came after the Lord’s Supper; but I think Luke just rearranged some of the conversations to combine discussions that took place before, during, and after the meal (chiding the disciples for arguing about who was greatest was before; predicting Peter’s denial was after. Luke just didn’t want all these other matters to interrupt his telling of the Lord’s Supper).
When Judas ran out, most of the disciples didn’t know what was going on. It was so completely unexpected that someone would leave right as they were beginning the Seder that some thought he had realized they needed some additional food. This was a very ritualistic meal with a very precise menu, herbs and sauces and symbolic dishes. If a single symbolic element was missing, it could spoil the whole feast. So, they thought, maybe he noticed something’s missing. That’s the only reason they could imagine why he’d leave before the Seder, to buy something for this very feast.
If this wasn’t the Passover, it wouldn’t make any sense. Judas suddenly rushes out of the room, and they think he suddenly had to go buy something for tomorrow’s supper? In the dark?
Thats a lot of speculation?
One thing you got right is that the seder sequence was very ritualistic and precise. Jesus did not follow the sequence at all.
quote:
If the Last supper = Passover, how can then Jesus satisfy the prophecy of the Passover Lamb?
quote:
By giving the disciples his very body and blood in the sacrament.
If you think he can't possibly be the Passover Lamb unless he was sacrificed at the same time as the Passover lambs, then you must also think he had to be one year old, and he had to die in the Temple.
The key to the prophecy of the Passover lamb does not center around the time of day when the lamb died, but the time of night when the family gathers to ponder the Lord's salvation. Jesus gathered with his family, his disciples, to commemorate the sacrifice he was making for them.
Passover is the 15th. The lambs died in preparation on the 14th, because their death itself was not the prophecy. The prophecy was in the salvation that came on the 15th when the angel of death passed over the houses where the blood was painted. The 15th was the day of salvation. The 15th was when the blood saved us from death. The 15th was when the first born died, but God's people were spared. The 15th was when the people were set free. The 15th was when Jesus gave his disciples his body and blood, and the 15th was when he said, "It is finished," as our salvation was complete. The 15th. Passover.
"Jesus knew that the time had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he now showed them the full extent of his love." This meal, this entire night, the crucifixion and his death--taken as a whole, is his sacrifice, the full extent of his love.
He went through a 20 hour (give or take) ordeal for us. The lambs only suffered a brief moment. So the timing couldn't be identical. But this is the one time when the Israelites made a sacrifice in which it was not the dying lamb that was the symbol. It was the blood.
edit: I should add that your translation of verse 2 is not what the Greek says. The Greek says deipnou ginomenou. Deipnos means meal. Ginomai means to be, to happen, to come into existence. So the phrase means when the meal came to be, or when mealtime came. Not when it was over.
edit again: or was the lamb slain on the afternoon of the 13th, and the 14th was Passover Day? I get my Jewish calendar confused. You know what I meant.
The giving of His blood and body is a new celebration for the new covenant. It has nought to do with the fulfiling of prophecy. In your arguement of a one year old lamb, does that mean since hes human, he cannot qualify?  i believe that God is very accurate in His prophecies up to fulfiling in the timing.
How can you say that prophecy does not centre around the death? Its is a holistic sequnce where the spotless
Lamb is slain and its blood to be use for the delivernace of the people.
Without the shedding of blood, there is no redemption of sins. Where is your salvation then?
It is finished.
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/26/2009 3:17:32 AM
|
|
|
prophet
Posts: 689
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
1) It is not implied. It is directly stated. It was the first day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. Please go read the cited passages.
The passover is not killed on the first day of the Unleaven. Lev 23. The 1st day is 15 nisan. The passover is killed on the 14 nisan.
quote:
2) No one ever said that Jesus had to "satisfy the prophecy of the Passover Lamb." That is a correlation people have put together given coincidental circumstances. The significance of the sacrifice and crucifixion can't be crammed into a little Passover-shaped box.
Coincidental? Do you believe in the prophetic nature of the feast of scriptures? The jews do and was waiting for their messiah.
quote:
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
The synoptics were not explicit. Johns gospel explains the synoptics.
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/26/2009 9:37:46 AM
|
|
|
Lapidoth
Posts: 5721
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
|
If our arguments only come from one gospel,
we are painting a picture with only one color.
It takes all four gospels and the Torah to come
up with all the vibrant colors of God's plan.
And we have to remember there is a lot of
recapitulation in the OT and the NT since it was
penned by Hebrews regardless of the language
used to write it down.
God has it all down and His Truth is there.
If we don't agree on specifics either all but one
is wrong, or we are all wrong.
Since I think I am right.................lol
I'd have to say we are probably all wrong.
But we are all right that the Feast of Passover
was fulfilled by Jesus' Blood as God's Lamb
making Him "our PASSOVER." That's the bottom line.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/26/2009 11:50:54 AM
|
|
|
BookerG
Posts: 163
Status: offline
|
quote:
Without the shedding of blood, there is no redemption of sins. Where is your salvation then?
Did it ever occur to you that the Passover lamb was not a sin offering? The people never would have eaten a lamb sacrificed for sin. It was a fellowship offering. It was not the death that was stressed, but the sharing of the flesh, and the blood painted on their doorposts marking them as God's people that was the significance.
There were plenty of other sacrifices where the lamb died as an atonement for sin, but Jesus was not put to death on the great Day of Atonement. He was not put to death at a time when any sacrifice for sin was commanded. Why not, if timing is so important?
He died on the day of Passover, the day when God gave his people deliverance from slavery. He didn't die on the day when people were just preparing for deliverance.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/26/2009 1:38:53 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 2923
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Theo-Minor
quote:
ORIGINAL: BookerG
edit again: or was the lamb slain on the afternoon of the 13th, and the 14th was Passover Day? I get my Jewish calendar confused. You know what I meant.
You had it right. The lambs were slain on the 14th around 3 p.m. and eaten later that evening. The 15th was the official start of the Passover holiday (15th to the 21st).
Since you are so certain regarding every detail, I am surprised that you would think Pesach is the 15th through the 21st. That is the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Pesach is just the 15th.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/26/2009 1:45:12 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 2923
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: BookerG
quote:
Without the shedding of blood, there is no redemption of sins. Where is your salvation then?
Did it ever occur to you that the Passover lamb was not a sin offering? The people never would have eaten a lamb sacrificed for sin. It was a fellowship offering. It was not the death that was stressed, but the sharing of the flesh, and the blood painted on their doorposts marking them as God's people that was the significance.
There were plenty of other sacrifices where the lamb died as an atonement for sin, but Jesus was not put to death on the great Day of Atonement. He was not put to death at a time when any sacrifice for sin was commanded. Why not, if timing is so important?
He died on the day of Passover, the day when God gave his people deliverance from slavery. He didn't die on the day when people were just preparing for deliverance.
Very good point regarding Pesach being a fellowship offering. However, Paul does later apply the atonement sacrifice to Yeshua. It appears that all of the sacrifices are representative of The Sacrifice of Yeshua.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/26/2009 2:29:46 PM
|
|
|
bob97
Posts: 2252
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
|
Sure sounds like a sin offering to me. Did he not bear the sins of many and was not the shedding of blood of the innocent a sin offering?
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Hebrews 9:11-14 ( KJV )
But then I'm still trying to learn.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
