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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/26/2009 3:13:58 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5721
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Sure sounds like a sin offering to me. Did he not bear the sins of many and was not the shedding of blood of the innocent a sin offering?
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Hebrews 9:11-14 ( KJV )
But then I'm still trying to learn.
Bob
Just goes to show Isaiah was right.
God's ways are higher than our ways,
and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts.
And with all the westernization it's impossible for
us to get very close to that point of thinking.
Thank God it's by Grace, Faith, and His Blood.
Isaiah 55:8
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither
are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isaiah 55:9
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so
are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts
than your thoughts.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/26/2009 3:16:23 PM
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BookerG
Posts: 163
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I agree, Jesus was the fulfillment of all the sacrifices.
When John the Baptist said, "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world," he was talking about a sin offering.
But the Passover lamb was not a sin offering. It did not die as the bearer of sins, as punishment, or as the shedding of blood to atone for the people. The fellowship offering was something man offered to God, and God offered it back to man to eat, so that as he ate the flesh which he had consecrated to God he experienced and enjoyed the peace and fellowship he had with the Lord. Don't think of it as a suffering and dying lamb. Think of it as someone offering God lamb chops for dinner, and God says, eat with me. The meaning is in the fellowship, not the slaying.
The Passover had the additional element, not present in a normal fellowship offering, that the blood was painted on their doorposts. But I'm not sure if the significance of that would pertain to their being redeemed by a bloody sacrifice, or merely a signpost to tell the Angel of Death that the people in this house have fellowship with God. Life is in the blood.
My point is merely that the fact that Jesus died as a sin offering does not make it necessary that he die at the exact same time as Passover lambs were being slain in the Temple that are not dying to atone for sin. If there is symbolism and prophecy in the Passover, then it is to be found in the great deliverance God gave his people on the 15th, not in the cooking of dinner on the 14th.
I suspect that at the original Passover, since there was no Temple or priesthood, so everyone slaughtered their own lamb and didn't have to wait in a long line, that all the lambs were slaughtered at twilight, between the evenings, as the new day began. It was only after the creation of a priesthood that the beginning of the slaughtering had to be pushed back to early and mid afternoon of the day preceding the Passover. In that case the day before Passover would have no prophetic significance at all.
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/26/2009 3:30:26 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5721
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BookerG
I agree, Jesus was the fulfillment of all the sacrifices.
When John the Baptist said, "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world," he was talking about a sin offering.
But the Passover lamb was not a sin offering. It did not die as the bearer of sins, as punishment, or as the shedding of blood to atone for the people. The fellowship offering was something man offered to God, and God offered it back to man to eat, so that as he ate the flesh which he had consecrated to God he experienced and enjoyed the peace and fellowship he had with the Lord. Don't think of it as a suffering and dying lamb. Think of it as someone offering God lamb chops for dinner, and God says, eat with me. The meaning is in the fellowship, not the slaying.
The Passover had the additional element, not present in a normal fellowship offering, that the blood was painted on their doorposts. But I'm not sure if the significance of that would pertain to their being redeemed by a bloody sacrifice, or merely a signpost to tell the Angel of Death that the people in this house have fellowship with God. Life is in the blood.
My point is merely that the fact that Jesus died as a sin offering does not make it necessary that he die at the exact same time as Passover lambs were being slain in the Temple that are not dying to atone for sin. If there is symbolism and prophecy in the Passover, then it is to be found in the great deliverance God gave his people on the 15th, not in the cooking of dinner on the 14th.
I suspect that at the original Passover, since there was no Temple or priesthood, so everyone slaughtered their own lamb and didn't have to wait in a long line, that all the lambs were slaughtered at twilight, between the evenings, as the new day began. It was only after the creation of a priesthood that the beginning of the slaughtering had to be pushed back to early and mid afternoon of the day preceding the Passover. In that case the day before Passover would have no prophetic significance at all.
That's the first time my thick skull could grasp a common sense
meaning of "eating my flesh" and "drinking my blood" statements.
I appreciate that.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/26/2009 3:55:53 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2923
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Sure sounds like a sin offering to me. Did he not bear the sins of many and was not the shedding of blood of the innocent a sin offering?
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Hebrews 9:11-14 ( KJV )
But then I'm still trying to learn.
Bob
All offerings except the grain offerings require the shedding of blood. However, the various offerings remind us of specific things regarding our relationship to Adonai. The burnt offerings and memorial portions are to remind us of Adonai's rightiousness and the complete disdain He has for sin. The fellowship offering is shared by the community and the priests. It reminds us that we are Adonai's chosen people and that we're are not only accountable for ourselves, but also those of our community.
Yeshua, as the Pesach, was not completely consumed but a memorial portion, His suffering, was burnt up completely. The remainder is to be shared by those who are of the household of faith and nothing is to be left "until morning". What is left over is to be burnt up completely and not left over for common use. The stranger may eat with us, but unless he identfies himself with us, he can not partake of the Pesach.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 6/26/2009 4:11:36 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/26/2009 6:44:19 PM
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zeke25
Posts: 46
Joined: 6/18/2009
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Exodus 23:18
The Timing of Passover, Circa 33 AD
When you come across an advocate who refuses to yield in the face of overwhelming evidence, you would be remiss in not discerning the hidden agenda of your adversary. Following is an explanation of one such topic of endless discussion, such as the one taking place here.
The Feast of Unleavened Bread is being spoken of again in Exodus 23. Yet in the middle of speaking about the Feast of Unleavened Bread, suddenly the Passover Feast is brought up again, without naming it, in Exodus 23:18 KJV, "Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread; neither shall the fat of my sacrifice remain until the morning." The requirement to eat unleavened bread begins at sundown on Abib 14, after the lamb has been killed and roasted during that afternoon. Now that sundown has arrived on Abib 14, then the eating of the Passover lamb can begin, but only with unleavened bread. This Scripture is a key verse in completely destroying the eucharist pretense as presented by that pagan organization known as the Roman Catholic Church. If they had not changed the times and the calendars and the start of a day (Daniel 7:25), then Yahoshua's last supper could not be made to appear to have occurred on Abib 14, by falsely claiming that the Last Supper occurred after sundown on Abib 13, which in their double speak really means Abib 14. Also, Yahoshua used artos/bread (Strong's G740) at the Last Supper, which occurred on Abib 12. Artos is leavened/raised bread. This would mean that Yahoshua, when teaching his disciples the ceremony of communion - substituting artos for his body and wine for his blood - would have violated Exodus 23:18 in Roman Catholic thinking. Therefore (contrary to the avalanche of evidence), staunch Roman Catholics and the organization can never admit that a day begins at sunrise; they can never admit that the Last Supper occurred on Abib 12; they can never admit that Passover was the first of two high holy days in a row (Passover being the first day, and the first day of Unleavened Bread being the second day); they can never admit Yahoshua used leavened bread during the communion ceremony. If they admit to any of these things, then their phony manmade eucharist is totally destroyed. Not much of a loss to me or the world, but to them it is the core of their pagan belief system. If their eucharist falls, then their whole belief system and house of cards falls with it. They claim that the eucharist is the actual blood of Christ. Yahoshua taught that is was a memorial, a ceremony, and He used leavened bread to teach it. Yahoshua presented communion as a symbol of His blood, not His physical blood in any shape, manner, or form.
Zeke25
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/26/2009 10:13:58 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2227
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BookerG
I agree, Jesus was the fulfillment of all the sacrifices.
When John the Baptist said, "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world," he was talking about a sin offering.
But the Passover lamb was not a sin offering. It did not die as the bearer of sins, as punishment, or as the shedding of blood to atone for the people. The fellowship offering was something man offered to God, and God offered it back to man to eat, so that as he ate the flesh which he had consecrated to God he experienced and enjoyed the peace and fellowship he had with the Lord. Don't think of it as a suffering and dying lamb. Think of it as someone offering God lamb chops for dinner, and God says, eat with me. The meaning is in the fellowship, not the slaying.
The Passover had the additional element, not present in a normal fellowship offering, that the blood was painted on their doorposts. But I'm not sure if the significance of that would pertain to their being redeemed by a bloody sacrifice, or merely a signpost to tell the Angel of Death that the people in this house have fellowship with God. Life is in the blood.
My point is merely that the fact that Jesus died as a sin offering does not make it necessary that he die at the exact same time as Passover lambs were being slain in the Temple that are not dying to atone for sin. If there is symbolism and prophecy in the Passover, then it is to be found in the great deliverance God gave his people on the 15th, not in the cooking of dinner on the 14th.
I suspect that at the original Passover, since there was no Temple or priesthood, so everyone slaughtered their own lamb and didn't have to wait in a long line, that all the lambs were slaughtered at twilight, between the evenings, as the new day began. It was only after the creation of a priesthood that the beginning of the slaughtering had to be pushed back to early and mid afternoon of the day preceding the Passover. In that case the day before Passover would have no prophetic significance at all.
Greetings
quote:
But the Passover lamb was not a sin offering. It did not die as the bearer of sins, as punishment, or as the shedding of blood to atone for the people.
If you read the order in Ex 12 the blood was applied before the Passover ... in the Gospel the blood was applied after the Passover in the very same order Jesus preformed the ceremony for His disciples it is opposite that of Ex 12...
Gospel Jesus gave them his body to eat “first”, and the wine “last”
quote:
My point is merely that the fact that Jesus died as a sin offering does not make it necessary that he die at the exact same time as Passover lambs were being slain in the Temple
To grasp When the lamb was to be slain it is not the same as being prepared… and to get the actual timings for this… we have to read
John 7:14-36
14 Now about the middle of the feast Jesus went up into the temple and taught. 15 And the Jews marveled, saying, "How does this Man know letters, having never studied?"
See where it mentions …”about the middle of the feast”
Now read here
30 Therefore they sought to take Him; but no one laid a hand on Him, because His hour had not yet come. 31 And many of the people believed in Him, and said, "When the Christ comes, will He do more signs than these which this Man has done?" 32 The Pharisees heard the crowd murmuring these things concerning Him, and the Pharisees and the chief priests sent officers to take Him.
33 Then Jesus said to them, "I shall be with you a little while longer, and then.... I go to Him who sent Me. ...
So according the scriptures…. the killing of the lambs was definitely not killed about the middle of the feast....
The middle of the feast would be about 12:00PM about the middle of the morning”12 hours...
A little while longer represents twilight… and is when "Jesus" (when the lambs) hour would come... and that is NOT represent when the disciples went “and prepared” the Passover in the upper room
.... it began when Jesus arrived with the disciples....= in the evening
If we read the Exodus 12 account where twilight is used ... it is actually in the evening… twilight is when the sun has disappeared BELOW the horizon = twilight, TWI = 2 lights = it is now getting dark enough to see the stars ....”but”… still light enough from the sun ...and that is in the evening.
The lambs were definitely not killed about the middle of the feast as we see in John 7:16 they were to be killed that evening… in the little while…while the light (from the sun) was still with them.
John 12:35 - Show Context
Then Jesus said to them, "A little while longer the light is with you. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you; = twilight ====2 lights = it is getting dark enough to see the stars but still light enough from the sun ...
He flat out told us when this was. 
When Jesus in opposite of EX 12 …broke the bread…first and gave the wine last.... that was the exact time in the evening when the lamb was slain in Ex 12
... the order of the ceremony is reversed… because He is going back to the one who sent HIM....
John 7:33 Then Jesus said to them, "I shall be with you a little while longer, and then…. I go to Him who sent Me.
LG
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 6/27/2009 8:25:32 AM >
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/26/2009 10:32:20 PM
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zeke25
Posts: 46
Joined: 6/18/2009
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To Theo-Minor
I was curious. Did you get your handle from Theodore the Studite from Asia Minor?
Zeke25
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/27/2009 12:37:58 AM
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Theo-Minor
Posts: 286
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zeke25
To Theo-Minor
I was curious. Did you get your handle from Theodore the Studite from Asia Minor?
Zeke25
No, actually. I am a "minor" theologian.
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/27/2009 12:56:56 AM
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Theo-Minor
Posts: 286
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
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• prophet: -
quote:
prophet
The passover is not killed on the first day of the Unleaven. Lev 23. The 1st day is 15 nisan. The passover is killed on the 14 nisan.
Mark 14:12 - "And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, 'where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?'"
Luke 22:7 - "Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. And he sent Peter and John, saying, 'go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.'"
Exodus 12:18 - "In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even."
Exodus 12:6 - "And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening."
The 14th day of the first month is the first day when unleavened bread had to be eaten, and the 14th day was the day the passover was killed by the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel.
quote:
prophet
The synoptics were not explicit. John's gospel explains the synoptics.
How much more explicit do you need them to be?
• Bluethread: -
quote:
Bluethread
Since you are so certain regarding every detail, I am surprised that you would think Pesach is the 15th through the 21st. That is the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Pesach is just the 15th.
Luke 22:1 - "Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover (paska)."
Jossphus, Antiquities 3.249 - "The feast of unleavened bread succeeds that of the passover, and falls on the fifteenth day of the month, and continues seven days [...]"
Josephus, Antiquities 17.213 - "Now, upon the approach of that feast of unleavened bread which the law of their fathers had appointed for the Jews at this time, which feast is called the Passover [...]"
The Passover sacrifice and feast was on the 14th. The Feast of Unleavened Bread was the 15th through the 21st, and was commonly called the Passover.
• zeke25: -
quote:
zeke25
Artos is leavened/raised bread.
John 6:33 - "For the bread (artos) of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world."
John 6:35 - "I am the bread (artos) of life [...]"
John 6:48 - "I am that bread (artos) of life."
Matthew 26:26 - "And as they were eating, Jesus took bread (artos), and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, 'take, eat; this is my body.'"
1 Corinthians 5:7 - "Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us."
Christ is the Passover. His body is the bread. Make of that what you will. But the word artos merely means bread. It doesn't say leavened or unleavened. There is no distinct word for unleavened bread. Every single passage mentioning unleavened bread simply mentions "unleavened" (azumos). The word "bread" is omitted.
• To All: -
I feel the need to say that this bit about Christ being the Passover is going in the wrong direction. The sacrifice of Christ, while certainly a spiritual fulfillment of the sacrifice, is not the point of the sacrifice. It has no real relevance to our salvation.
Jesus died to void our oath to the law.
As Paul loosely explains, we were once without the law, and through Abraham we were given a promise by faith. Because the Jews were a stiff-necked people, God gave us the law because of sin. Through the law, sin became evident and convicting. Before the law, we were not guilty. Under the law, we are. When God gave us the law, we all swore an oath to keep the whole law, and agreed to suffer curses and death if we did not. God swore an oath of his own that he would not relent in his judgment against those who hate him. Since we swore on God, and God swore on his own name, and neither of us could take his name in vain (swear falsely by his name), we were oath bound to be cursed and die, and God was oath bound to deliver that promise to us. There was really no way around it.
So God, our husband, voided our oath, which is a husband's right to do under the law. Without the law, we are once again under the promise of faith. Where there is no law, there is no transgression.
However, according to the law, if a husband allows a woman's oath to stand, her soul is bound to it, and she is guilty if she faulters. He can void her oath when he hears it, and she is free. But if he allows her oath to stand, as God did in our case, and he later voids it, as Christ did, then he has to bear her iniquity.
Since our iniquity and our oath required curses and death, it was God's part as our husband who voided our oath to be cursed and to die. So Christ died, and he died on a tree, for cursed is he who hangeth upon a tree.
That is the point of the sacrifice. Christ died to free us from the law, which was our death and our curse. Now, without the law, we are free from condemnation. As "one flesh" with Christ, it is not we who stand before God, but Christ who stands before God in our stead. He is our advocate.
In short, as I said, all this Passover stuff is cool. It's probably even right in many respects. But Christ's death, Passover though it may have been in spirit, was really the price he had to pay as our husband to set us free from the law that was death to us, and to save us from God's oath bound wrath.
Scriptures are available for anyone who cares to look this stuff up.
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/27/2009 11:50:58 AM
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BookerG
Posts: 163
Status: offline
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Theo
This is off topic, but your comments call to mind an issue I’ve often had with attempts to explain the cross and exactly why Jesus died and exactly what his death accomplished or how it saves us.
Whether we talk about sacrifices or divorce decrees or judicial hearings or debt repayment or ransom or federal representation... we have to remember that God’s justice came first. Jesus didn’t have to die to fulfill all the earthly requirements of one of these systems (the insistence that there can be no redemption without the shedding of blood comes to mind). Rather these earthly systems of justice are manifestations and shadows of a system of justice that came first.
The true, underlying reasons for and meaning of the cross is hidden within the mind of God. Based solely on his own divine character God decided that the salvation of mankind required the death of his own Son. He didn’t say the sacrifices require it, or earthly justice demands it. He didn’t decide the rules of the divorce decree apply here, so I have to do it. He didn’t shrug his shoulders and say, there can be no redemption without the shedding of blood, so I have no choice (he didn’t have to create man with blood in the first place). He didn’t even have to create death in the form we know it. He said, to be true to my own character I will satisfy my own system of justice by sending my Son to die.
Then he created the sacrificial system and established earthly judicial systems and told us these things will help you understand my ways. But, as they say, every analogy limps. These earthly forms of justice help us understand God; they do not bind God. And it’s quite possible that none of them is really a perfect representation of the real justice behind the cross.
That’s in line with my reasons for discussing the Passover sacrifice. The sacrifice doesn’t bind God. The timing doesn’t bind God. If God chose to make the timing correspond, we can learn from it. If God chose to bind himself by promising Jesus would die on a certain date, then we could be sure of it. If God declares that there can be no redemption without the shedding of blood, then we know his blood will be shed. But I won’t go beyond that and say that every aspect of Jesus’ death must correspond with every aspect of the Passover, or the divorce decree, or earthly courts of justice, unless God specifically identifies the correspondence.
It’s also a problem I have with those who extend the prophetic nature of all of the Jewish feasts beyond what is expressly stated in Scripture. There might be some additional prophetic nature. Jesus might have been born on a feast day and he might return on a feast day. If and when we see the fulfillment, maybe we’ll learn something from it. But only God binds God. Only God can say he has to do something a certain way or at a certain time. And I haven’t heard him say it. Whole systems of theology have been built around the correspondences and analogous match-ups between feast and fulfillment or between some system of justice and the cross. I prefer to be a minimalist in these regards.
< Message edited by BookerG -- 6/27/2009 12:01:19 PM >
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/27/2009 1:57:09 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2923
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
But the Passover lamb was not a sin offering. It did not die as the bearer of sins, as punishment, or as the shedding of blood to atone for the people.
If you read the order in Ex 12 the blood was applied before the Passover ... in the Gospel the blood was applied after the Passover in the very same order Jesus preformed the ceremony for His disciples it is opposite that of Ex 12...
Gospel Jesus gave them his body to eat “first”, and the wine “last”
Again I fear you once again are stretching an analogy. Regarding the application, as I have pointed out before "the blood" applied to Abraham and he lived long before The Sacrifice. This does create a seeming temperal wormhole, but then again, I said this is stretching the analogy of the sacrifices.
Regarding the elements, Yeshua did not refer to the Pesach but other elements. He was equating the entire Seder to Himself. He uses the afikomen, broken middle matzah, to his body which would be broken on our behalf. He also compares the third chedosh cup, that is partaken of after the meal and immediately after the restoration of the afikomen, to His blood. This is the cup of thanksgiving, completion or redemption. We say a b'ruchah for Adonai's provision and our redemption from hunger. Yeshua could not take part in this because, for Him, it was not finished. Since the life is in the blood, He is telling His disciples to take on His life. He then refers to the fourth cup. The cup of return. It is with this cup we vow to do our best to meet again at this time in Jerusalem. It is then, in the Kingdom to come, that he would partake the third cup with us.
Now there is much symbolism in the Scriptures and the rabbinics that are eluded to in the Scriptures. However, we need to be careful not to try too hard to tie up all of the loose ends. These are teachings and the sybolism of one teaching does not necessarily translate well into another teaching. It is the main message of the teaching that is vital and can be turned into an overarching principle. To attempt to make tha elements of a particular teaching into overarching principles is overreaching in my opinion.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/28/2009 12:58:14 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2227
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
But the Passover lamb was not a sin offering. It did not die as the bearer of sins, as punishment, or as the shedding of blood to atone for the people.
If you read the order in Ex 12 the blood was applied before the Passover ... in the Gospel the blood was applied after the Passover in the very same order Jesus preformed the ceremony for His disciples it is opposite that of Ex 12...
Gospel Jesus gave them his body to eat “first”, and the wine “last”
Again I fear you once again are stretching an analogy. Regarding the application, as I have pointed out before "the blood" applied to Abraham and he lived long before The Sacrifice. This does create a seeming temporal wormhole, but then again, I said this is stretching the analogy of the sacrifices.
Regarding the elements, Yeshua did not refer to the Pesach but other elements. He was equating the entire Seder to Himself. He uses the afikomen, broken middle matzah, to his body which would be broken on our behalf. He also compares the third chedosh cup, that is partaken of after the meal and immediately after the restoration of the afikomen, to His blood. This is the cup of thanksgiving, completion or redemption. We say a b'ruchah for Adonai's provision and our redemption from hunger. Yeshua could not take part in this because, for Him, it was not finished. Since the life is in the blood, He is telling His disciples to take on His life. He then refers to the fourth cup. The cup of return. It is with this cup we vow to do our best to meet again at this time in Jerusalem. It is then, in the Kingdom to come, that he would partake the third cup with us.
Now there is much symbolism in the Scriptures and the rabbinics that are eluded to in the Scriptures. However, we need to be careful not to try too hard to tie up all of the loose ends. These are teachings and the sybolism of one teaching does not necessarily translate well into another teaching. It is the main message of the teaching that is vital and can be turned into an overarching principle. To attempt to make tha elements of a particular teaching into overarching principles is overreaching in my opinion.
Greetings
quote:
These are teachings and the symbolism of one teaching does not necessarily translate well into another teaching. It is the main message of the teaching that is vital and can be turned into an overarching principle.
I see what you are saying there...
Truthfully for me it comes as revealed truth... not based on symbolism, but taken from both the literal occurrence and the praise it produced or in the prophetic words of our forefathers in the mindset (belief system) of their day in symbolism … still based in revealed truth... according to the scriptures, the same as today
Whether or not the narrations in the OT were written shortly after the occurrence or even written as the same time of the occurrence they were actually fulfilled as they were written….
For example the literal ceremonies in EX 12 The phrase or the revelation God revealed to Moses and all the law the prophets and the psalms came forth from what proceeded beforehand = going forward…. which is also according to the pattern (s) shown to Moses on the mountain.
The reverse I mentioned in Ex 12 showing the order of things… being …the blood was applied before the literal Passover as opposed to in the Gospel… the blood was applied after the Passover…
The blood applied beforehand seems to represent deliverance or the protection of the covering = “before God was revealed” to the Children of Israel…
The command to eat the Passover sacrifice that evening and to leave none of it remaining until the morning...
……Where this is patterning reiterated again…. or seen in the coming scriptures…???
It seems when they consumed the flesh of the sacrifice… it represents in general receiving sustenance, both physically to sustain them through the Exodus and spiritually later on… by accepting the word… or the law of God…
So this pattern is reiterated again… when we see the manna from heaven in the desert…or the law of God… also represents that sustenance that sustained the Children of Israel as it did “in the exodus” after consuming the sacrifice… in like manner sustained them “through the wilderness”… where it is mentioned by Jesus …but they all still died…
So… it has to represent the law… in some manner
48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.
SO just like the children of Israel “did not die” when they applied the blood before the Passover was consumed…. the same is true in the Gospel… where the bread was consumed first…. and the blood applied after … therefore we “will not die” in like manner
57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
58 “This is the bread”… which came down from heaven—“not as your fathers ate the manna,” and are dead.
Reversed...
….He who eats this bread… will live forever."
LG
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/28/2009 8:02:28 PM
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prophet
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BookerG
quote:
Without the shedding of blood, there is no redemption of sins. Where is your salvation then?
Did it ever occur to you that the Passover lamb was not a sin offering? The people never would have eaten a lamb sacrificed for sin. It was a fellowship offering. It was not the death that was stressed, but the sharing of the flesh, and the blood painted on their doorposts marking them as God's people that was the significance.
There were plenty of other sacrifices where the lamb died as an atonement for sin, but Jesus was not put to death on the great Day of Atonement. He was not put to death at a time when any sacrifice for sin was commanded. Why not, if timing is so important?
quote:
He died on the day of Passover , the day when God gave his people deliverance from slavery. He didn't die on the day when people were just preparing for deliverance.
Maybe you are right on the sin offering bit. Thanks
i have been saying that He died on Passover but some do not agree. BUT the thing is if He died on Passover, He would not have celebrated the passover seder. Lookin at the sequence of the celebration, its NOT the passover seder.
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/28/2009 8:34:27 PM
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prophet
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Regarding the elements, Yeshua did not refer to the Pesach but other elements. He was equating the entire Seder to Himself. He uses the afikomen, broken middle matzah, to his body which would be broken on our behalf. He also compares the third chedosh cup, that is partaken of after the meal and immediately after the restoration of the afikomen, to His blood. This is the cup of thanksgiving, completion or redemption. We say a b'ruchah for Adonai's provision and our redemption from hunger. Yeshua could not take part in this because, for Him, it was not finished. Since the life is in the blood, He is telling His disciples to take on His life. He then refers to the fourth cup. The cup of return. It is with this cup we vow to do our best to meet again at this time in Jerusalem. It is then, in the Kingdom to come, that he would partake the third cup with us.
The sequence of the Last supper was different to a passover seder?
TIA
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/28/2009 8:40:32 PM
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prophet
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Theo-Minor
• prophet: -
quote:
prophet
The passover is not killed on the first day of the Unleaven. Lev 23. The 1st day is 15 nisan. The passover is killed on the 14 nisan.
Mark 14:12 - "And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, 'where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?'"
Luke 22:7 - "Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. And he sent Peter and John, saying, 'go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.'"
Exodus 12:18 - "In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even."
Exodus 12:6 - "And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening."
The 14th day of the first month is the first day when unleavened bread had to be eaten, and the 14th day was the day the passover was killed by the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel.
quote:
prophet
The synoptics were not explicit. John's gospel explains the synoptics.
How much more explicit do you need them to be?
Well, i would read it as " Towards the first day of the feast of the unleaven bread" OR "As the first day of the Unleaven Bread approaches".
Why? If it was already the 1st day of the Unleaven Bread, Passover seder would have been over!
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/28/2009 8:52:06 PM
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prophet
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BookerG
That’s in line with my reasons for discussing the Passover sacrifice. The sacrifice doesn’t bind God. The timing doesn’t bind God. If God chose to make the timing correspond, we can learn from it. If God chose to bind himself by promising Jesus would die on a certain date, then we could be sure of it. If God declares that there can be no redemption without the shedding of blood, then we know his blood will be shed. But I won’t go beyond that and say that every aspect of Jesus’ death must correspond with every aspect of the Passover, or the divorce decree, or earthly courts of justice, unless God specifically identifies the correspondence.
It’s also a problem I have with those who extend the prophetic nature of all of the Jewish feasts beyond what is expressly stated in Scripture. There might be some additional prophetic nature. Jesus might have been born on a feast day and he might return on a feast day. If and when we see the fulfillment, maybe we’ll learn something from it. But only God binds God. Only God can say he has to do something a certain way or at a certain time. And I haven’t heard him say it. Whole systems of theology have been built around the correspondences and analogous match-ups between feast and fulfillment or between some system of justice and the cross. I prefer to be a minimalist in these regards.
i apperciate your perspective of how God does things and i am in general agreement.
But your now seeing timings. Why Did God specify dates for the feasts? Wy was He so specific? i agree onlly God can 'bind' God. But He was specific in setting those dates. Is He not telling us something as with all His prophecies? i will put it that God's timings are perfect as His ways.
4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. 5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover. 6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. 7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. 8 But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. 9 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf F48 of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest: 11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it. 12 And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the LORD. 13 And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the LORD for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin. 14 And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete: 16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD. 17 Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD. 18 And ye shall offer with the bread seven lambs without blemish of the first year, and one young bullock, and two rams: they shall be for a burnt offering unto the LORD, with their meat offering, and their drink offerings, even an offering made by fire, of sweet savour unto the LORD. 19 Then ye shall sacrifice one kid of the goats for a sin offering, and two lambs of the first year for a sacrifice of peace offerings. 20 And the priest shall wave them with the bread of the firstfruits for a wave offering before the LORD, with the two lambs: they shall be holy to the LORD for the priest. 21 And ye shall proclaim on the selfsame day, that it may be an holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work therein: it shall be a statute for ever in all your dwellings throughout your generations. 22 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the LORD your God.
23 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. 25 Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD. 26 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 27 Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD. 28 And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God. 29 For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people. 30 And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people. 31 Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. 32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate F49 your sabbath.
33 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 34 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the feast of tabernacles for seven days unto the LORD. 35 On the first day shall be an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. 36 Seven days ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: on the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: it is a solemn assembly; and ye shall do no servile work therein. 37 These are the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day: 38 Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD. 39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath. 40 And ye shall take you on the first day the boughs of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook; and ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days. 41 And ye shall keep it a feast unto the LORD seven days in the year. It shall be a statute for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month. 42 Ye shall dwell in booths seven days; all that are Israelites born shall dwell in booths: 43 That your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God. 44 And Moses declared unto the children of Israel the feasts of the LORD.
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/29/2009 4:05:36 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2923
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
SO just like the children of Israel “did not die” when they applied the blood before the Passover was consumed…. the same is true in the Gospel… where the bread was consumed first…. and the blood applied after … therefore we “will not die” in like manner
57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
58 “This is the bread”… which came down from heaven—“not as your fathers ate the manna,” and are dead.
Reversed...
….He who eats this bread… will live forever."
LG
Your points are well taken, espescially this last. I am just concerned that we not get into the habit of mixing metaphors. The matzah in the Pesach Seder is not a symbol of the manna, but a symbol of the bread of affliction that we took with us in haste as we left eygpt. Now, I do not want to get caught up in tying down all the possibilities of symbolism that one might draw between the bread of affliction and The Bread of Life.
That is indeed my point. It is fine to sermonize on such parallels. However, once one tries to take the symbolism beyond that which is clearly stated in the Scriptures one can, al be it inadvertantly, get away from, if not at odds with, the clearly stated meanings of those symbols. This is an often used criticism of rabbinics, even though it is also a common problem in modern preaching.
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/29/2009 4:07:58 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Regarding the elements, Yeshua did not refer to the Pesach but other elements. He was equating the entire Seder to Himself. He uses the afikomen, broken middle matzah, to his body which would be broken on our behalf. He also compares the third chedosh cup, that is partaken of after the meal and immediately after the restoration of the afikomen, to His blood. This is the cup of thanksgiving, completion or redemption. We say a b'ruchah for Adonai's provision and our redemption from hunger. Yeshua could not take part in this because, for Him, it was not finished. Since the life is in the blood, He is telling His disciples to take on His life. He then refers to the fourth cup. The cup of return. It is with this cup we vow to do our best to meet again at this time in Jerusalem. It is then, in the Kingdom to come, that he would partake the third cup with us.
The sequence of the Last supper was different to a passover seder?
TIA
In what way?
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/29/2009 5:00:16 PM
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Lapidoth
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I appreciate all the angles and views connected with this.
I have printed off many of the comments for study and evaluation.
Yet, as we venture connecting the dots I maintain my "tether line"
to the foundational elements of the events. Kinda what Bluethread said.
whether I agree with all, part, or none of the statements;
it causes me to look at things at different vantages and definitely to dig deeper.
For that I am thankful, but, yet,
my mind is unchanged to my belief...........................LOL
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Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
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BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/29/2009 8:01:59 PM
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prophet
Posts: 689
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Regarding the elements, Yeshua did not refer to the Pesach but other elements. He was equating the entire Seder to Himself. He uses the afikomen, broken middle matzah, to his body which would be broken on our behalf. He also compares the third chedosh cup, that is partaken of after the meal and immediately after the restoration of the afikomen, to His blood. This is the cup of thanksgiving, completion or redemption. We say a b'ruchah for Adonai's provision and our redemption from hunger. Yeshua could not take part in this because, for Him, it was not finished. Since the life is in the blood, He is telling His disciples to take on His life. He then refers to the fourth cup. The cup of return. It is with this cup we vow to do our best to meet again at this time in Jerusalem. It is then, in the Kingdom to come, that he would partake the third cup with us.
The sequence of the Last supper was different to a passover seder?
TIA
In what way?
In your experience, is this the right sequence in general?
1. Kiddush and the first cup (first of 4 cups of wine)--prayer of sanctification and a blessing is recited with the first cup of wine, to set apart the day to God.
2. U-r'chatz (the washing of hands)--no blessing is recited. One family member takes a pitcher of water, bowl, and towel to each person at the table to wash their hands.
3. Karpas (means parsley, celery, green herbs)--dip the green vegetable in a bowl of salt water and eat. The green vegetable reminds people Passover is in the spring, and the salt water symbolizes the tears and pain of slavery.
4. Yachatz (breaking of matzot)--middle of 3 pieces of matzah (unleavened bread) is broken in two with the larger portion wrapped in a napkin and set aside as afikomen (it is hidden & that matzah eaten at the end of the meal), the other piece is left with the other two unbroken matzot.
5. Maggid (telling of the story of the Exodus)--4 questions, concludes with 2nd cup of wine, the wine of wrath. The story of the Exodus is told and a tiny bit of wine is poured out for each plague. First half of the Hallel (Psalms 113-118) is recited responsively. Then the 2nd cup of wine is consumed.
6. Rachtzak (washing of hands with a blessing)--ceremonial cleansing.
7. Motzi (the blessing over the unleavened bread)--the upper matzah and remainder of the broken middle are broken into pieces and distributed.
8. Matzah (unleavened bread is blessed and eaten)--the upper matzah and remainder of the middle matazah are broken and eaten.
9. Maror (bitter herbs are blessed and eaten)--usually symbolized by romaine lettuce and horseradish.
10. Korech (matzah and bitter herbs eaten together)--dip the matzah in horseradish and charoset (apple & nut mixture) and eat it. In many seders, steps#8-10 are combined.
11. Shulchan Orech (the meal is eaten)--roasted lamb served with bitter herbs and matzah (in Jesus' day), today it can vary a lot and usually has much more variety as a sumptuous meal.
12. Tzafun (afikomen found, ransomed, and eaten)--children search for and find the afikomen and the finder gets a reward. Everyone gets a small piece of the afikomen to eat.
13. Barech (grace after the meal)--3rd cup of wine is the cup of redemption, and it is sipped. After the third cup, a child goes to the door looking for Elijah, to see if he is there to announce the coming of Messiah. Fourth cup of wine is the cup of acceptance or praise.
14. Hallel (Psalms, Tehillim 115-118)--every seder ends with the latter half of the Hallel.
15. Nirtzak (all is finished)--seder complete.
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/29/2009 9:00:51 PM
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Theo-Minor
Posts: 286
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
Well, i would read it as " Towards the first day of the feast of the unleaven bread" OR "As the first day of the Unleaven Bread approaches".
Why? If it was already the 1st day of the Unleaven Bread, Passover seder would have been over!
There is absolutely no justification to you reading it any way other than the way it reads. It says what it says, so stop trying to defend an erroneous point of view, accept what it says, and concede. You are wrong. The 14th is the first day of unleavened bread, and the day the passover is slain. The 15th is the first day of the Feast of unleavened bread. The two are not the same. The gospels are crystal clear.
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Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/30/2009 12:39:34 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2227
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Theo-Minor
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
Well, i would read it as “Towards the first day of the feast of the unleavened bread" OR "As the first day of the Unleavened Bread approaches".
Why? If it was already the 1st day of the Unleavened Bread, Passover Seder would have been over!
There is absolutely no justification to you reading it any way other than the way it reads. It says what it says, so stop trying to defend an erroneous point of view, accept what it says, and concede. You are wrong. The 14th is the first day of unleavened bread, and the day the Passover is slain. The 15th is the first day of the Feast of unleavened bread. The two are not the same. The gospels are crystal clear.
Greetings
quote:
There is absolutely no justification to you reading it any way other than the way it reads. It says what it says, so stop trying to defend an erroneous point of view, accept what it says,
Lets take look…
3 Speak to all the congregation of Israel, saying: 'On the tenth day of this month every man shall take for himself a lamb, according to the house of his father, a lamb for a household. 4 And if the household is too small for the lamb, let him and his neighbor next to his house take it according to the number of the persons; according to each man's need you shall make your count for the lamb. 5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year. You may take it from the sheep or from the goats. 6 Now you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month. Then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel= (the fourteenth day of “the same” month)= shall kill it at …twilight. = in the evening =on the 14th day of the SAME month.
12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt …on that ….“night”, = in the evening =on the 14th
I will pass through the land of Egypt and will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord.
13 Now the blood shall be a sign for you on the houses where you are. And when I see the blood, I will pass over you; and the plague shall not be on you to destroy you when I strike the land of Egypt.
14 So this day… (That day= Passover) shall be to you a memorial; and you shall keep it as a feast to the Lord throughout your generations.
…..You shall keep “it”… (That day= Passover) … as a feast by an everlasting ordinance.
The evening was when the blood shall be a sign for you on the houses where you are.
And this represents no movement… the exodus has not yet occurred…
therefore the morning represents the reason why Moses told them v 11
........And thus you shall eat it: with a belt on your waist, your sandals on your feet, and your staff in your hand. So you shall eat it in haste. It is the Lord's Passover.
So the reason why Moses told them to be ready with a belt on your waist, your sandals on your feet, and your staff in your hand represents them getting ready to leave…in haste!
Its very important to observe that... that when they were leaving in the morning of the 14th… they were still literally classified as still being in the land of Egypt
SO…the morning of the 14th represents moving forward as they were leaving the land of Egypt
NEW SUBJECT…
Moses reiteration here is from verse 17.. which was after the fact… not of the 14th ….
after the fact of what…???
…..When GOD…brought… “Their armies” =(a great multitude.)… “Out…. of ... “the land”… of Egypt….=
15 Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread.
On the first day….(= After.. The 14th….)
……you shall remove leaven from your houses.
Why is that.... that they should remove leaven from their houses.. ???
Because.... it represents when God brought them out from their houses… in the land of …leaven = Egypt
Therefore Moses began verse 15… after the fact… saying…
15 Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread.
On the first day….(= After.. The 14th….) being “this same day”… (is The 15th) …….
I will have brought ….your armies… “out of the land” of Egypt….
15 Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. ……you shall remove “leaven from your houses”.
…..For whomever “eats” leavened bread ….from… “the first day”… until… the seventh day…
…That person….. shall be cut off from Israel. = individually,
The Passover was for the ….“Household”…
…… the feast of ULB is for the individual = different days…
Otherwise…. we would have a contradiction…
BECAUSE
16 On the first day there shall be a holy convocation,
and
on the seventh day.... there shall be a holy convocation = “for you”.
….. No manner of work…. shall be done… on them; (= BOTH holy convocations)
But … (The only work that can be done on BOTH holy convocations) = (IS) that…
....everyone must eat—
(AND in like manner) …..that only may be… prepared …. by you. = each individually….
And this is NOT as the head of the household prepared the Passover lamb “according to his house” In verse 3.
…..These are 2 very different things here
….and do not represent the same feast days as being 1 in day the same...that’s a contradiction
To reiterate this into modern thinking for simplifications…
Moses tells us or (them) …. That when they ate FOOD…on each of the 2 holy convocations… the food they ate was not to be purchased at McDonald’s or at the local 7-11… and stuff like that…nor was it chosen on the 10th of the first month..
….The Passover was prepared “for the household” to consume and was prepared by someone else … ULB is for the individual to keep... and they were to prepare for themselves
…..these meals here Moses was speaking of ….that is… if anyone wanted to “eat” food on these 2 holy convocation days… what that means is that mommy or daddy, sister or brother, relatives or non relatives… did not prepare breakfast lunch and dinner for anyone but themselves =, “each individual” –who was of age—obliviously
SO…. if they wanted to eat..
Whatever they were to eat had to be prepared by THEM.. for them..
….This is has nothing to do with the Passover… prepared by someone else
Matt 20:23
17 So you shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread, for on “this same day”… (The 15th)
…….I will have “brought your armies out”… of the land” of Egypt…. = past tense
quote:
The 14th is the first day of unleavened bread, and the day the Passover is slain. The 15th is the first day of the Feast of unleavened bread
Not according to the OT.
When they cleared the land of Egypt….(not when they were leaving and still in the land of Egypt in the morning of the 14th) === When they cleared the land of Egypt it was the first day of ULB =
Therefore it is written (THAT)…. “on “this” same day” (Evening and Morning) I will have brought ….your armies… “out……..
And the spiritual reference suggests that once out of the land of Egypt, don’t have nothing around you to remind you so as to go back in.
Which was first implied “after” … God brought ….them… “Out
=(the 15th) evening and morning… not the 14th
Jesus hit on this also in Matt 12 42 The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here. 43 "When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. 44 Then he says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.' And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order.
………45 Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first.
So shall it also be with this wicked generation."
= he finds it empty… is the key… swept, and put in order = is unleavened… but EMPTY
…..SO if one wishes to get technical… it would be sometime within some 36 Hours of walking time was when God brought them OUT…of the land” of Egypt (into open country)…and was when Moses gave this ordinance to the Children of Israel Immediately…to … sweep and put their house in order… well at least that’s how Jesus reiterated it
Unless I made a miss-calculation I believe the scripture is absolute and very well written to be understood…
quote:
. You are wrong. The 14th is the first day of unleavened bread,
How is prophet wrong by what he/she offered?
LG
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Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/30/2009 4:08:21 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2923
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Regarding the elements, Yeshua did not refer to the Pesach but other elements. He was equating the entire Seder to Himself. He uses the afikomen, broken middle matzah, to his body which would be broken on our behalf. He also compares the third chedosh cup, that is partaken of after the meal and immediately after the restoration of the afikomen, to His blood. This is the cup of thanksgiving, completion or redemption. We say a b'ruchah for Adonai's provision and our redemption from hunger. Yeshua could not take part in this because, for Him, it was not finished. Since the life is in the blood, He is telling His disciples to take on His life. He then refers to the fourth cup. The cup of return. It is with this cup we vow to do our best to meet again at this time in Jerusalem. It is then, in the Kingdom to come, that he would partake the third cup with us.
The sequence of the Last supper was different to a passover seder?
TIA
In what way?
In your experience, is this the right sequence in general?
Apart from the fact that you left out the fourth cup. That appears to be the general sequence. So, what is the difference?
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/30/2009 10:07:51 PM
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prophet
Posts: 689
Joined: 4/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Theo-Minor
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
Well, i would read it as " Towards the first day of the feast of the unleaven bread" OR "As the first day of the Unleaven Bread approaches".
Why? If it was already the 1st day of the Unleaven Bread, Passover seder would have been over!
There is absolutely no justification to you reading it any way other than the way it reads. It says what it says, so stop trying to defend an erroneous point of view, accept what it says, and concede. You are wrong. The 14th is the first day of unleavened bread, and the day the passover is slain. The 15th is the first day of the Feast of unleavened bread. The two are not the same. The gospels are crystal clear.
quote:
4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. 5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover. (my emphasis) 6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. 7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work
In the first day, ye shall do no servile work. How can the disciples prepare the passover seder on this first day?
< Message edited by prophet -- 6/30/2009 10:25:39 PM >
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 6/30/2009 10:20:17 PM
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prophet
Posts: 689
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Regarding the elements, Yeshua did not refer to the Pesach but other elements. He was equating the entire Seder to Himself. He uses the afikomen, broken middle matzah, to his body which would be broken on our behalf. He also compares the third chedosh cup, that is partaken of after the meal and immediately after the restoration of the afikomen, to His blood. This is the cup of thanksgiving, completion or redemption. We say a b'ruchah for Adonai's provision and our redemption from hunger. Yeshua could not take part in this because, for Him, it was not finished. Since the life is in the blood, He is telling His disciples to take on His life. He then refers to the fourth cup. The cup of return. It is with this cup we vow to do our best to meet again at this time in Jerusalem. It is then, in the Kingdom to come, that he would partake the third cup with us.
The sequence of the Last supper was different to a passover seder?
TIA
In what way?
In your experience, is this the right sequence in general?
Apart from the fact that you left out the fourth cup. That appears to be the general sequence. So, what is the difference?
Its there...
quote:
13. Barech (grace after the meal)--3rd cup of wine is the cup of redemption, and it is sipped. After the third cup, a child goes to the door looking for Elijah, to see if he is there to announce the coming of Messiah. Fourth cup of wine is the cup of acceptance or praise.
Matthew 26:20-30 shows the bread and wine ceremony was done after they had eaten the meal. In verse 26, it says they were finishing eating and Jesus took bread, broke it, blessed it and distributed it to the disciples. Notice in step 8 of the seder meal above, that the matzah is eaten before the meal in step 11. Then He took the cup the passed it to the disciples.
Mark 14:17-26
Verse 22 states that while they were still eating, Jesus took the bread, blessed it, broke it, and gave it to the disciples. Then He took the cup, blessed it, and passed the cup to the disciples. This is in agreement with Matthew.
Notice in the seder above, that the 3rd and 4th cups of wine come after eating the afikomen (step 12).
So the seqeunce is substantialy different from that of the seder.
John 13:1 to 17:26
The gospel of John doesn't cover the specifics of the bread and wine ceremony, but it does introduce the foot-washing ceremony and presents significant teachings which took place at the Last Supper. Foot washing is not part of the Passover Seder meal, but is something new. Notice that none of the gospel accounts record the ceremonial hand washing nor the many steps of the seder meal. John 13:26 tells us that the morsel dipped in the bowl to identify Judas as the betrayer was a sop (bread wrapped around meat and/or vegetables). It was not step 3 of dipping a green vegetable in a bowl of salt water. It also seems not to be step 10 of dipping the matzah in horseradish and haroset, since a sop is regular bread and not matzah. Again, all acounts say that regular bread was used.
So again, there are obvious differences to the Passover seder and the last supper conducted by the Lord
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