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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 7/1/2009 5:47:40 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Apart from the fact that you left out the fourth cup. That appears to be the general sequence. So, what is the difference?
Its there...
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13. Barech (grace after the meal)--3rd cup of wine is the cup of redemption, and it is sipped. After the third cup, a child goes to the door looking for Elijah, to see if he is there to announce the coming of Messiah. Fourth cup of wine is the cup of acceptance or praise.
First, not everything Yeshua did has to match up with The Seder hagadah you outlined. The Seder is rabbinic and subject to interpretation by the head of household. Second, not everything in the proposed hagadah need be mentioned. It could have happened, even though it is not mentioned. We do not read of Yeshua ever relieving Himself. That does not mean it never happened.
Now to the points. I have never heard of the kedosh cup being sipped. It must be drunken completely in order to be refilled. The fourth cup comes shortly after. Therefore, "Drink all of it." is a fitting instruction.
The youngest may very well have called for Elijah. We do not know one way or the other. If this were a significant factor wouldn't the Apostles have mentioned one way or the other?
Finally for this section the fourth cup is connected with a vow. "Next year in Jerusalem." This, in my opinion, is why Yeshua says with regard to the third cup, (Mr 14:25) "I tell you the truth, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it anew in the kingdom of God." This is a referal to His return, in my opinion.
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Matthew 26:20-30 shows the bread and wine ceremony was done after they had eaten the meal. In verse 26, it says they were finishing eating and Jesus took bread, broke it, blessed it and distributed it to the disciples. Notice in step 8 of the seder meal above, that the matzah is eaten before the meal in step 11. Then He took the cup the passed it to the disciples.
Sorry, I overlooked your note in steps 7 & 8 that the upper matzah is broken and eaten. That is not the case. The matzah in the upper and lower compartments of the matrzahtash are not touches. As you pointed out in step 12 after the meal the afikomen is eaten.
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Mark 14:17-26
Verse 22 states that while they were still eating, Jesus took the bread, blessed it, broke it, and gave it to the disciples. Then He took the cup, blessed it, and passed the cup to the disciples. This is in agreement with Matthew.
Notice in the seder above, that the 3rd and 4th cups of wine come after eating the afikomen (step 12).
So the seqeunce is substantialy different from that of the seder.
Mt 26:26-30 is pretty much exactly like Mark's account. Some think that Matthew may very well have had Mark's account available to him when he wrote down his account"
"While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body." Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom." When they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives."
Now, "While they were eating" need not mean in the middle of the actual meal. It may have been Mark elluding to the fact that the meal was just coming to an end. Since there were no chioldren present thay may have dispensed with the hunt for the afikomen. I don't know. As I said, I believe, they are hitting the high points here. Getting all of the details in the story and have them explained in detail is not the point of the passage.
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John 13:1 to 17:26
The gospel of John doesn't cover the specifics of the bread and wine ceremony, but it does introduce the foot-washing ceremony and presents significant teachings which took place at the Last Supper. Foot washing is not part of the Passover Seder meal, but is something new. Notice that none of the gospel accounts record the ceremonial hand washing nor the many steps of the seder meal. John 13:26 tells us that the morsel dipped in the bowl to identify Judas as the betrayer was a sop (bread wrapped around meat and/or vegetables). It was not step 3 of dipping a green vegetable in a bowl of salt water. It also seems not to be step 10 of dipping the matzah in horseradish and haroset, since a sop is regular bread and not matzah. Again, all acounts say that regular bread was used.
True, Yeshua could have gone beyond what many had done and washed there feet. However, as I pointed out, not all Seders are exactly the same. The Scriptures do not dictate the Seder. Various groups add their own little ceremonies.
Regarding "the sop", the greek term seems to mean "a fragment, bit, morsel". This need not be leavened. Also, matzah need not be dry. During the meal Yeshua probably took a piece of regular matzah and dipped it in a common sauce. This is not an uncommon method in the middle east.
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So again, there are obvious differences to the Passover seder and the last supper conducted by the Lord.
It appears to me that since there is no specific Pesach Seder, but just certain elements that are common to most and there are things in the accounts of the "last supper" that seem to parallel the basic Seder, nothing is proven one way or the other here. What is more telling is that Yeshua tells the disciples to go and prepare the Pesach and then shortly there after we have an account of a meal. Therefore, I conclude that this was a Pesach Seder.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 7/1/2009 5:54:49 PM >
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 7/1/2009 8:32:23 PM
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Ps103
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Please start a new thread about the proper observance of the Seder and get this thread back on topic.
Thanks.
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 9/21/2009 9:10:10 PM
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GrahamCracker
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This is the old thread. I resurrected it for the sake of continuity.
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Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 9/21/2009 9:23:14 PM
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BookerG
Posts: 166
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Yes, but did you resurrect it on the third day or after three days?
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 9/21/2009 9:59:29 PM
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drmark
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And since it is evening, was that the start of the day or the end of the day?
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Christ's Crucifixion and Passover - 9/22/2009 11:32:08 AM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5591
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From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BookerG
Yes, but did you resurrect it on the third day or after three days?
It's been two months, so it must be the third month? LOL.
I am thankful Jesus took my place in the crucifixion
and became my Passover. He's my hero!!!!!!!!!!
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Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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