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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 10/30/2009 8:00:16 PM
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abraxas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Danhartleyministries
I have been a christian or a believer since age of 9 I am now 42. I find it hard to believe that I serve a vicious and tormenting God who would continuously burn his children that he says he loves for sin of rejection of his son, Jesus. Its my opinion that the second death the one that is mentioned in Revelation is where those that rejected God son and his free gift of salvation are thrown and they are no longer alive. The scriptures talk of a second death and death throughout the scriptures are consistant that it is the ceasing of life, so if this is the case and the dead are judged andthey ahve already dies to body then what is left, their spirit, so it is my humble opinion that this is where their spirit is destroyed for all of eterninty, not torturing for eternity. I welcome your opinion.
Dan Hartley,
Knoxville, TN[/size]
Dan, I'm afraid you just have to let Christians have their Hell. They know that their entire cultural and doctrinal raisons detre depend on it being a real, an eternal, and an incomprably horrible existence. Anything less than the worst possible is just man letting his emotions get in the way of the truth.
And many will be careful to point out your misuse of the word "children"--only Christians are God's children.
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 11/1/2009 3:31:07 PM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
They know that their entire cultural and doctrinal raisons detre depend on it being a real, an eternal, and an incomprably horrible existence. Anything less than the worst possible is just man letting his emotions get in the way of the truth.
And many will be careful to point out your misuse of the word "children"--only Christians are God's children.
Isn't that the sad truth for many. I disagree with the Christian notion of not trusting one's emotions, but alas, so many think that the emotions were somehow irretrievably tainted at the fall, while the intellect and will are salvageable. Apparently emotions are not supposed to be a useful part of God's creation. That brings us to "free will". Somehow, man's "free will" is sovereign over God's desire to save him.
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 11/2/2009 12:17:27 PM
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walterquez
Posts: 1850
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The concept of Hell as it is understood by many today is totally foreign to Orthodoxy. How is this concept different than the gods of paganism? If you please them you were rewarded, if not, you were destroyed; they demanded nothing less than a sacrifice. How are Hitler, Stalin and other dictators any different? They did the same thing. Believe them and you had your place in their paradise. Confront them and you were sent to their hell to suffer.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 11/2/2009 12:30:16 PM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
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From: Western WA, USA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
The concept of Hell as it is understood by many today is totally foreign to Orthodoxy. How is this concept different than the gods of paganism? If you please them you were rewarded, if not, you were destroyed; they demanded nothing less than a sacrifice. How are Hitler, Stalin and other dictators any different? They did the same thing. Believe them and you had your place in their paradise. Confront them and you were sent to their hell to suffer.
Wow, I'm surprised to see this post coming from you! You would agree, though, that God does give rewards and punishment, right?
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 11/2/2009 12:46:02 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
Wow, I'm surprised to see this post coming from you! You would agree, though, that God does give rewards and punishment, right? Why are you surprised?
Rewards, yes. Punishment, no.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 11/2/2009 1:52:17 PM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
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From: Western WA, USA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
Wow, I'm surprised to see this post coming from you! You would agree, though, that God does give rewards and punishment, right? Why are you surprised?
Rewards, yes. Punishment, no.
There are plenty of references to punishment, justice and hell in the Bible. That is undeniable. My issue is with the nature of hell. (Also, the omnipotence and will of God)
Why am I surprised at your post? You seem to hold on to what I believe to be extra-biblical teachings, like the perpetual virginity of Mary, so I would have expected you to hold on to the (again, according to my belief) extra-biblical teaching about hell as well. I guess it just seems inconsistent to me.
< Message edited by WanderingLamb -- 11/2/2009 2:02:13 PM >
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 11/2/2009 2:29:37 PM
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walterquez
Posts: 1850
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No, it is not extra biblical. The problem is using the wrong lenses when reading the Holy Scripture, or using the same lens for everything. There are sections that are literal, and there are sections that are symbolic, and there are sections that are prophetic; consequently, whichever one you're reading, you "must" use the correct lenses, otherwise, your understanding of it will be skewed.
Revelation talks about a lake of fire, but it also talks about a "Lamb" in heaven. I think most understand the latter symbolically rather than literal. We know Our Lord Jesus Christ is not a "literal" lamb. It also talks about a woman sitting on seven mountains, but we know this is not a "literal" giant woman sitting on seven mountains. So why do we interpret the lake of fire literally? Especially when we know the book of Revelation is a prophetic book full of symbolism?
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 11/2/2009 2:35:45 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
There are plenty of references to punishment, justice and hell in the Bible. That is undeniable. My issue is with the nature of hell. (Also, the omnipotence and will of God) Justice is an unfortunate translation, because the same Greek word is also used for Righteousness. You can pretty much replace every instance of the words; justice, just, justification, etc... with righteous, right, righteousness, etc... Again, it is about using the proper lenses. One meaning is legalistic, the other is therapeutic which makes more sense in the context. For example, one translation says God is a "just" God, but if one uses the other lens, we get, God is a "righteous" God. The former is legalistic, the latter refers to a God who makes things right.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 11/2/2009 2:54:19 PM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
There are plenty of references to punishment, justice and hell in the Bible. That is undeniable. My issue is with the nature of hell. (Also, the omnipotence and will of God) Justice is an unfortunate translation, because the same Greek word is also used for Righteousness. You can pretty much replace every instance of the words; justice, just, justification, etc... with righteous, right, righteousness, etc... Again, it is about using the proper lenses. One meaning is legalistic, the other is therapeutic which makes more sense in the context. For example, one translation says God is a "just" God, but if one uses the other lens, we get, God is a "righteous" God. The former is legalistic, the latter refers to a God who makes things right.
That is interesting, Walterquez. I haven't heard of that before. I had heard of the word translated as "forever" as being more correctly translated "in this age", though.
I still take issue with what you are saying though. Surely you agree that human beings are sinners and that the wages of sin is death, and that Jesus paid that sacrifice because God required it? Do you not agree that God put the punishment for us all on Him? (Isaiah 53:4-6) How do you interpret all the references to the Great Judgment of God at the end of the age? And righteousness...yes God is righteous, but we are not, in our natural selves. That's the whole problem, the whole reason we need Jesus. And I don't believe it is biblical to say that since Jesus suffered for us, therefore God does not not require human beings to suffer (both justly and unjustly). He did suffer for us, but there is still plenty of suffering going on (again, deserved, and undeserved). Even the Word says that discipline (which God administers to His sons He loves) is painful, not pleasant, at the time. The bible refers to all creation groaning in birth pangs* I am very curious as to how you can say that God does not punish. Even King David, a man after God's own heart, had to endure the consequences for his sins in the troubles he faced with his family (Absolom, etc). While I take issue with the concept of hell being eternal, I would not argue that God does not ever punish. I believe there is no basis for that argument.
*(Romans 8:18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved)
Thanks for sharinng.
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 11/2/2009 3:32:14 PM
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walterquez
Posts: 1850
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
That is interesting, Walterquez. I haven't heard of that before. I had heard of the word translated as "forever" as being more correctly translated "in this age", though. Interesting. In our Church we don't say "forever and ever", rather we say "unto the ages of ages".
quote:
I still take issue with what you are saying though. Surely you agree that human beings are sinners and that the wages of sin is death Yes, we are sinners and the consequences of it is death. If you put your hands in the fire the consequence is that you will get burned. I don't think there will be a judge who will sentence you to get burned, because you put your hands in the fire.
quote:
and that Jesus paid that sacrifice because God required it? I think this passage can answer this.quote:
Ps 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
quote:
And righteousness...yes God is righteous, but we are not, in our natural selves. That's the whole problem, the whole reason we need Jesus. We need Him, because we are broken; and He came to set us "right", because He is a "Righteous" God who loves us.quote:
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
quote:
While I take issue with the concept of hell being eternal, I would not argue that God does not ever punish. I believe there is no basis for that argument. Rather it is discipline in order to make things "right", not punishment for the sake of punishing.
Yes, there is suffering, and this is because we were broken with sins. And yes, there is discipline, but this is to make us better. But these do not refer to the concept of a lake of fire where God will send those who have rejected Him.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 11/2/2009 7:50:04 PM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
Yes, there is suffering, and this is because we were broken with sins. And yes, there is discipline, but this is to make us better. But these do not refer to the concept of a lake of fire where God will send those who have rejected Him.
Walterquez, what do you interpret the "lake of fire" to mean?
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 11/2/2009 8:15:56 PM
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walterquez
Posts: 1850
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
Walterquez, what do you interpret the "lake of fire" to mean? It is not mine own interpretation. According to the Orthodox Church, this is God's Love.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 11/2/2009 9:03:41 PM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
Walterquez, what do you interpret the "lake of fire" to mean? It is not mine own interpretation. According to the Orthodox Church, this is God's Love.
That is very interesting! Sort of a melding of the Scripture that says, "Our God is a consuming fire" (Hebrews 12:9) and "God is love" (1 John 4:8) Very interesting! What church do you go to?
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 11/2/2009 9:30:20 PM
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walterquez
Posts: 1850
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
That is very interesting! Sort of a melding of the Scripture that says, "Our God is a consuming fire" (Hebrews 12:9) and "God is love" (1 John 4:8) Very interesting! What church do you go to? I think so. One of the early Church Fathers described it this way, and I am only paraphrasing, because I don't remember exactly how it was said. If you can imagine a fiery river proceeding out of the throne of God that covers all of creation, this is God's Love. Those of us who love Him, His Love energizes us. But those who hate God, God's Love is a nuisance. Actually, it is more than a nuisance, they loathe it. Unfortunately for them, God is omnipresent, therefore His Love is everywhere as well. So no matter where they go, God is there, hence His Love is there too. There is no escape from God's Love, and because of this, God's Love "burns" them. And this is because they are resisting His Love. And because they can't over power God, it burns.
An analogy would be if you were trying to go against the flow of a powerful river. If you go with the flow, it feels great. But, if you go against it, you will feel the wrath of the river against your body. The more you try to fight the current, the more it hurts. But no matter how hard you try, you will never beat the force of the river. Imagine fighting against God. It is the same river, but what you experience depends on if you go with the flow or against it. This is our understanding of the fiery hell or lake of fire. It is the experience of those who are fighting against God's Love. They are engulfed by God's Love and there is nowhere they can go to escape from God's Love, because God is everywhere. The concept that there is a literal fiery place of punishment is foreign to the Church; it is pagan.
Does this make sense?
quote:
What church do you go to? Orthodox Church.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 11/3/2009 12:35:45 AM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
An analogy would be if you were trying to go against the flow of a powerful river. If you go with the flow, it feels great. But, if you go against it, you will feel the wrath of the river against your body. The more you try to fight the current, the more it hurts. But no matter how hard you try, you will never beat the force of the river. Imagine fighting against God. It is the same river, but what you experience depends on if you go with the flow or against it. This is our understanding of the fiery hell or lake of fire. It is the experience of those who are fighting against God's Love. They are engulfed by God's Love and there is nowhere they can go to escape from God's Love, because God is everywhere. The concept that there is a literal fiery place of punishment is foreign to the Church; it is pagan.
Does this make sense?
Yes, but it flies in the face of what the Christian church has taught for a long time about "free will". In fact you are saying the opposite of what many have written on this thread. They have said that the lake of fire is the absence of God's love, and that God will not force His will on anyone, so if they want to live outside of His love, he will let them do it, forever and ever. What a great, wise and giving God they present.  (being sarcastic here)
It does remind me of Psalm 139 though 
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. (King James version, obviously)
quote:
quote:
What church do you go to? Orthodox Church.
Which Orthodox Church? Isn't there more than one?
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 11/3/2009 9:26:34 AM
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walterquez
Posts: 1850
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
Yes, but it flies in the face of what the Christian church has taught for a long time about "free will". I don't see how it flies in the face of the Christian Church, since this is what she has always believed; this is nothing new. Maybe new to the Westerners, but not the Eastern Church.
Also, our free will has nothing to do with who God is, Love. With our free will can choose to be in fellowship with Him, or not. Except that if we choose to reject Him, His Love will always be with us no matter where we go. There is no escaping God, because He is everywhere. And God is not going to stop being God, because our will doesn't want Him.
quote:
In fact you are saying the opposite of what many have written on this thread. They have said that the lake of fire is the absence of God's love, and that God will not force His will on anyone, so if they want to live outside of His love, he will let them do it, forever and ever. What a great, wise and giving God they present. (being sarcastic here) Think about it for a moment. God is "omnipresent". It doesn't matter where we go, He is there. Whether you will it or not, it makes no difference, God will always be there where ever we go. And because God is Love, His Love is there too, whether you want it or not. Again, think about it, how can God be absent from us? How can He remove Himself from a place? And if He is there, so is His Love, because you can't separate the very essense of who God is, Love.
quote:
Which Orthodox Church? Isn't there more than one? There are different juridictions, but it is the same Church; Greek, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Russian, Romanian, Serbian, and so on. I specifically go to a Greek Orthodox.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 11/3/2009 1:27:51 PM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
Yes, but it flies in the face of what the Christian church has taught for a long time about "free will". I don't see how it flies in the face of the Christian Church, since this is what she has always believed; this is nothing new. Maybe new to the Westerners, but not the Eastern Church.
Also, our free will has nothing to do with who God is, Love. With our free will can choose to be in fellowship with Him, or not. Except that if we choose to reject Him, His Love will always be with us no matter where we go. There is no escaping God, because He is everywhere. And God is not going to stop being God, because our will doesn't want Him.
quote:
In fact you are saying the opposite of what many have written on this thread. They have said that the lake of fire is the absence of God's love, and that God will not force His will on anyone, so if they want to live outside of His love, he will let them do it, forever and ever. What a great, wise and giving God they present. (being sarcastic here)
Think about it for a moment. God is "omnipresent". It doesn't matter where we go, He is there. Whether you will it or not, it makes no difference, God will always be there where ever we go. And because God is Love, His Love is there too, whether you want it or not. Again, think about it, how can God be absent from us? How can He remove Himself from a place? And if He is there, so is His Love, because you can't separate the very essense of who God is, Love.
quote:
Which Orthodox Church? Isn't there more than one? There are different juridictions, but it is the same Church; Greek, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Russian, Romanian, Serbian, and so on. I specifically go to a Greek Orthodox.
Excellent posts, Walterquez! I agree with what you have written here. Coming from a thoroughly Western Christian background, I didn't know Christians were even "allowed" to believe such things!  Cool.
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 11/3/2009 4:33:28 PM
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walterquez
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In the Orthodox Church we understand that God Loves everyone, because that is the very essence of who He is. Does this means He Loves Satan and the demons? Yes it does.
Understand that no one has existence of their own, everyone and everything relies on God to exist, He who alone is the only one who is self existing. That means that something or someone is energizing our existence for us to exist; without it we would cease to exist.
Earlier I talked about a fiery river that proceeds from the throne of God, and that this is God's Love; it is the Holy Spirit that energizes all of creation. Those who loves God, the fiery river or His Love is wonderful; those who can't stand God for whatever reason, pride, etc..., the fiery river burns them, because they are fighting against the current. I can't imagine the burning sensation, because who can fight against God and win?
Either way, God's Love is what energizes us, including Satan and his demons. If God did not Love Satan, then where does Satan draw his existence from? He can't exist on his own. It is from God's Love of course. Unfortunately for him, he will always go against the current and burn himself eternally. I mean really, who can fight against God's Love and not get burned? God's Love is everywhere and we are completely engulfed by God's Love.
I believe it is nice to know that God Loves you here and now, and even if you did not make it to heaven, He will still Love you. Except that because you will be trying to run away from His Love or fight against it, your perception or experience of God's Love will be one of wrath. Imaging that, viewing His Love as the wrath of God.
Swim with the current and there is joy; swim against it and you will feel the "wrath" of God. Interesting, it is the same Love, but to one, the experience is wonderful, but to another it is wrath. The wrath of God is another misconception that the Orthodox Church does not believe. We believe that notion is "pagan". When it talks about the wrath of God, it is simply talking about our perception or experience of God's Love when going against Him.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 11/8/2009 11:14:09 PM
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mosess8
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Danhartleyministries
I have been a christian or a believer since age of 9 I am now 42. I find it hard to believe that I serve a vicious and tormenting God who would continuously burn his children that he says he loves for sin of rejection of his son, Jesus.
Vicious and tormenting?
In your judgement, but how can you judge what you cannot fully understand. God did not give us His word so that we could judge His performance. He gave us the word so that we could examine ourselves.
I am reminded of the Apostle Paul asking the question:
"Who are you to argue with god? Does the potter have power over the clay to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?"
My point is simply that to say that God is "vicious and tormenting", is like you trying to become His potter and make Him your clay.
Accept Him as he is, and know that His righteousness is beyond what you can know. He has accepted us as we are though we will never make the grade..
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 11/9/2009 12:44:45 AM
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walterquez
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Dear mosess8, Dan was asking a valid question. For example, if God is "Righteous", how is punishing people to an eternal fire fulfilling this attribute? It's an oxymoron, don't you think?
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 11/9/2009 6:01:07 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 879
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From: Augusta, GA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mosess8
quote:
ORIGINAL: Danhartleyministries
I have been a christian or a believer since age of 9 I am now 42. I find it hard to believe that I serve a vicious and tormenting God who would continuously burn his children that he says he loves for sin of rejection of his son, Jesus.
Vicious and tormenting?
In your judgement, but how can you judge what you cannot fully understand. God did not give us His word so that we could judge His performance. He gave us the word so that we could examine ourselves.
I am reminded of the Apostle Paul asking the question:
"Who are you to argue with god? Does the potter have power over the clay to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?"
My point is simply that to say that God is "vicious and tormenting", is like you trying to become His potter and make Him your clay.
Accept Him as he is, and know that His righteousness is beyond what you can know. He has accepted us as we are though we will never make the grade..
Someone disagreeing with your interpretation of God's punishment does not make them trying to mold God. He wasn't saying God is vicious and tormenting. He was saying that he does NOT believe that God is that way. I completely accept God the way He is... but I still see nothing in the Bible that proves eternal conscious torment for all unsaved persons.
_____________________________
"O LORD, You have pleaded my soul's cause; You have redeemed my life." - Lamentations 3:58
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 11/9/2009 10:34:08 PM
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mosess8
Posts: 66
Joined: 11/6/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
Dear mosess8, Dan was asking a valid question. For example, if God is "Righteous", how is punishing people to an eternal fire fulfilling this attribute? It's an oxymoron, don't you think?
It is righteous to do what you will with what belongs to you. I'll tell you another one that seems ike an oxymoron: The one where Jesus tells the story about the man who worked some servants 8 hours, some 5 and others one. At the end of the day he paid them all the same according to what he agreed. It seems like the ones who worked the longest should have received the most. That just seems right, doesnt it?
Well, Jesus says that the man had the right to do whatever He wanted with what was his own.
He was right,
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). Oh well, maybe I'll just have to save it for another night. 
