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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 3/19/2009 11:30:15 AM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
Sovereign, don't you find it exhausting to try so hard to prove someone wrong?
Nope... Do you?
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I'm just not going to get back to you. Reading you're...uh...commentary on what I wrote would not be edifying...you do not understand what I wrote and you have no right to tell me
I have all the "right" to express myself...
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I'm not charging God with anything. Your posturing for a disagreement is not something I'm interested in.
Your statement in fact charged the verse itself since it says exactly was you were railing against...
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But you do not acknowledge that...even tho it proves your accusation that I am attacking Scripture is wrong.
After the fact...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 3/19/2009 4:30:20 PM
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frankman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Christfollower2000
Has God done anything after the Bible was written that has led to the death of people? Or did he stop for some reason? If yes, how do you know. If no, why does he no longer command people to kill?
Your question has already been fairly well answered by other posters, so I`ll add just a few points.
First of all in the O.T. times God was working through the Children of Israel as a nation, both from a religious and political dimension.
Today we`re living in the Church age. Since the first coming of Christ to earth we are called Christians made up of Jews and Gentiles alike with Jesus being our head. In this Church age we are not a political kingdom like Israel was in the O.T., but a spiritual kingdom instead. That is why Jesus stated in John 18:36 "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, My servants would fight to prevent My arrest by the Jews. But now My kingdom is from another place." So the reason why He no longer commands people to kill God`s enemies today is because we`re living in the age of God`s amazing grace.
_____________________________
"Is not My word like fire,` declares the LORD, `and like a hammer that breaks a rock in peaces?" Jeremiah 23:29
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 3/22/2009 9:16:04 AM
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JStucki76
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
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God bringing good out of something and God "fixing" it are not the same thing. If I do something wrong, God can and will use it for good according to his plan. That doesn't mean that there aren't consequences for bad behavior, or that everyone will think that it turns out OK. My point was that evil is not a surprise to God. His plan is worked out with evil in mind, and his will will be accomplished in spite of it. I'm not saying he condones evil. Evil is evil and good is good. But I must believe that evil has a role to play in his plan, otherwise I must doubt his sovereignty. He wouldn't allow evil to exist "just because." If it works into his plan, then it is good for him to allow it, even though it is bad for me to do it.
David committed adultery with Bathsheba and then had her husband killed. Jesus was an eventual descendant of that union. God brought good from it; it was part of his plan. But he did not "fix" it. What David did was still wrong. Their baby still died.
I basically agree with what you wrote here....it is the application of the verse to evil that I disagree with.
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
In this thread, Christfollower2000 wants to know "why did God people kill people in the Bible".........how does that verse even begin to apply to the question? I think the topic has gotten somewhat off track and does not answer the question at all. Continue reading v. 29 and you will see that
Paul is addressing Christians...those God foreknew...so how does that verse apply to those killed in the OT?
God can bring good out of what someone meant for evil. No disagreement there, so no need to keep telling me that as if it was in dispute.
So, is the answer to the OP 'God killed everyone off because he works for the good of those who love him?" That, does not make a whole lot of sense. And if you insert v.29 into that, it makes even less sense. Hope you understand my point now. I never had any doubt God can bring good out of evil. That, is so. However, that is not the reason the Israelites were instructed to slaughter everyone in the land when they went in.
And is also does not address follower2000's claims that God would not do such things.
I posted about God bringing good out of evil in response to follower2000's suggestion that abortion was OK because God might be using it for some higher purpose. It was never a direct response to the OP. I was just trying to squash the notion that we should do evil that grace may increase. But I believe the idea of God bringing good out of evil applies to all times, not just the Christian era. He works all things into his plan, which is not only for the good of those who love him but also for the sanctification of his name.
So, to further address the OP....
God was establishing his people, whom he had chosen, in the land that he chose for them. He wanted all the other people out because they were idolatrous and he did not want a corrupting influence so close to his people. These were the people through whom Messiah would come; it was important that they be preserved. It is in his authority to do so.
And God did not stop killing people at the end of the OT. Let's not start thinking that the OT God is angry and vengeful and the NT God is warm and fuzzy. Same God.
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 3/22/2009 11:14:33 AM
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His_4_Ever
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JStucki76
And God did not stop killing people at the end of the OT. Let's not start thinking that the OT God is angry and vengeful and the NT God is warm and fuzzy. Same God.
I don't think the God of the OT or NT are different, but who has he purposely killed since the OT, other than sacrificing his son Jesus Christ.
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 3/22/2009 3:10:22 PM
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JStucki76
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quote:
ORIGINAL: His_4_Ever
quote:
ORIGINAL: JStucki76
And God did not stop killing people at the end of the OT. Let's not start thinking that the OT God is angry and vengeful and the NT God is warm and fuzzy. Same God.
I don't think the God of the OT or NT are different, but who has he purposely killed since the OT, other than sacrificing his son Jesus Christ.
Ananias and Sapphira in Acts chapter 5, and Herod in Acts chapter 12.
There may be others that simply aren't recorded in Scripture. After all, the OT spans at least what, 5000 years? The NT only spans about 50. Plus very little of the NT is history. Most of it is letters--theology and such.
< Message edited by JStucki76 -- 3/22/2009 3:17:43 PM >
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 3/24/2009 10:32:22 PM
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7over6
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1. It does not seem like God to kill a city or people group without reason. Because besides them naturally being guilty of sin- it doesn't appear that they are given much grace.
My theory is this: God reached out to them through prophets and perhaps even signs and wonders but they still did not accept His offer or law.
Because of there consistent refusal- God had them wiped out and in the OT's recorded history it appears they had no grace and it was unfair.
Just a personal thought that only applies to a few of the OT stories.
The future of these groups and cities could have been detrimental to the future of Gods children the Israelites and therefore He had to wipe them out so He could continue His plan (keeping my theory in mind that they refused Gods grace).
I mean look at all the trouble Amalek caused and only if God has caused Esau to die or be killed somehow it would have spared the Israelites a lot of trouble- how much more these mass groups of people who lived in evil ways and refused the way of God.
2. God often had the Israelites, after killing the humans, kill the animals to and burn the gold and loot found in the city. He exclusively commanded they burn everything and not keep anything (animals or materials) and it seems kind of mysterious. Obviously it is easy to get super spiritual and connect spiritual things to this. But perhaps there is more to it than that.
Other times God allowed them or told them to keep the materials and animals.
Keep in mind- there were still diseases, outbreaks, and bacteria at the time. Much of the evil acts of people of the time included sex, imbreeding, and various uncleannesses. Why do we expect that back then things similar to our modern STD's were not generated back then?
And aside from sexual problems causing more problems- it is possible that extreme lack of hygiene had a large effect on an areas animals and materials (infection and genetic problems).
Take note that in the Law God has a large amount of commandments pertaining to personal and group hygiene that they had not idea about yet today because of scientific advancements we can see the value of.
God was "cleaning house" some people perhaps were beyond repair and so unclean that they were like walking diseases to outsiders (the Jews), thus fire and death was used to clean those spots of the Earth.
Keep in mind that Grace as we know it had also not yet been established by Jesus' sacrifice.
Just some of my humble opinions.
And I am well aware that I skipped over many theological holes and principals in the first statement.
Any comments of complaints?
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 3/26/2009 4:17:00 PM
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frankman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 7over6
1. It does not seem like God to kill a city or people group without reason. Because besides them naturally being guilty of sin- it doesn't appear that they are given much grace.
My theory is this: God reached out to them through prophets and perhaps even signs and wonders but they still did not accept His offer or law.
Because of there consistent refusal- God had them wiped out and in the OT's recorded history it appears they had no grace and it was unfair.
Your right, God`s judgment is always just. It seems like when you read 1 Sam.15:1-3 that God ordered the Amalekites to be destroyed without reason. But not so according to Duet.25:17-19. In fact God had good reason for commanding King Saul to kill the Amalikites. "Remember what the Amalekites did to you along the way when you came out of Egypt. When you were weary and worn out, they met you on your journey and cut off all who were lagging behind; they had no fear of God. When the LORD your God gives you rest from all the enemies around you in the land He is giving you to posses as an inheritance, you shall blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven. Do not forget!"
Has God changed any today? 1 Thess.5:3 has this to say about what God will do to unbelievers in the near distant future if they continue in their wicked ways, if they continue to go on their merry ways, if they continue to refuse to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and like the Amalikites, if they continue to have no fear of God. It`s not a pretty picture.  "While people are saying, Peace and safety, destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape."
How do we escape the coming wrath of God on our age? Rom.10:13 gives us a simple answer. "for, Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
_____________________________
"Is not My word like fire,` declares the LORD, `and like a hammer that breaks a rock in peaces?" Jeremiah 23:29
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 3/26/2009 6:58:15 PM
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7over6
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Yes God is always just.
When people pose all the issues thet have with God in the OT and list them as reasons they don't believe in God, problems with the Bible, or proof against God/Bible I do not see it as that.
I see it as just a list of things they don't understand hah.
Of course I see this because I believe the Bible to without major error and the records to be true, so I pin that down as absolute and everything else is just commentary, misconception, or ignorance.
There is so much history that is not recorded in our 39 OT books I am sure God left it out so that the Torah/Bible is not 3 feet thick- it's just unnessecary. But I believe there are rational reasons God does what He does.
This is getting to another subject but is there any thought or scripture to hint towards a second chance/Jesus preaching to those below after he died (His descension) because they did not have the cross yet?
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 3/28/2009 11:44:11 AM
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frankman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 7over6
This is getting to another subject but is there any thought or scripture to hint towards a second chance/Jesus preaching to those below after he died (His descension) because they did not have the cross yet?
The verses your probably thinking of is Eph.4:7-10. However regardless of how these verses are interpret, the people before the cross were saved by faith in what was to happen on the cross yet future, as today we are saved by faith in what has taken place on the cross.
_____________________________
"Is not My word like fire,` declares the LORD, `and like a hammer that breaks a rock in peaces?" Jeremiah 23:29
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 3/28/2009 1:03:46 PM
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drmark
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quote:
However regardless of how these verses are interpret, the people before the cross were saved by faith in what was to happen on the cross yet future Would you please provide a Scripture reference for this concept, frankman?
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 3/30/2009 5:27:58 PM
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frankman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
However regardless of how these verses are interpret, the people before the cross were saved by faith in what was to happen on the cross yet future Would you please provide a Scripture reference for this concept, frankman?
One thing I really like about you is that you`re always asking people for Scripture references to prove their statements. That`s great because it keeps us on our toes and it`s great Bible study.
Everything that happened in the O.T., the law, the rituals, etc., all pointed to the coming of Christ to die for our sins. Yet was it these rituals etc. that saved these people? "NO" It was faith. We know it was Abraham`s faith that saved him as Gen.15:6 states. "Abram believed the LORD, and He credited it to him as righteousness." What did Abraham believe in that made him righteous? It was the promise that God would sent the world a Redeemer, even though he never saw it in his lifetime. So the verse I would go with is Heb.11:13. "All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth." These people were saved by faith in the future promises of the cross just like we are, even though they never understood it the way we do because we have history to fall back on. They only saw these promises from a distance and believed in them by faith.
_____________________________
"Is not My word like fire,` declares the LORD, `and like a hammer that breaks a rock in peaces?" Jeremiah 23:29
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 3/30/2009 6:22:18 PM
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drmark
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quote:
What did Abraham believe in that made him righteous? It was the promise that God would sent the world a Redeemer, even though he never saw it in his lifetime. That's an interesting theory, frankman, but it's not Scriptural. Genesis 15:4-6 clearly states that Abraham's belief that God would make his offspring as innumerable as the stars was the belief credited as righteousness. I see nothing specific in Genesis about any Cross, any Redeemer, not even any Messiah as the word is not used until Daniel chapter 9! So while I appreciate that the entirety of God's Word "all pointed to the coming of Christ to die for our sins", the concept that Abraham believed in a coming world Redeemer is eisegetical conjecture.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 3/30/2009 7:34:21 PM
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7over6
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quote:
I see nothing specific in Genesis about any Cross, any Redeemer, not even any Messiah
There is so much in the law and Genesis especially that points to a messiah and sepcifically- the messiah Jesus Christ.
Adam is a type of Jesus, infact Jesus is called the second Adam.
Genesis 2:15
The bronze snake risen on the pole that healed the people that looked upon it.
The passover: a pure lamb killed and the blood from it that saved them from the spirit of death.
The sacrifices made in the temple all resemble, in some meaningful way, Christ.
The near sacrifice of Isaac.
David the shepherd being promoted to king
Joseph- nealy every verse of his life had a fulfillment by Jesus's life.
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as the word is not used until Daniel chapter 9
So anything not mentioned in Daniel 9 is destined to be false regarding the Biblical future?
It seems that a lot of the O.T. characters were ignorant of a messiah but that is just what it seems. They may have recieved some revelation from God about it or concluded it in general on there own but I agree with drmark only on that Abraham trusted in what God personally said He would do for him- offspring, Isaacs miraculous birth etc. and because Abraham had faith in those things- God was well pleased and thus (as we are disputing) was saved.
Abrahams name is mentioned quite a bit in the NT- 77 times!
See Romans Ch4, Ch9, Gal 3, Heb 11, Jam 2
Romans 4:2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God. 3 What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
It is recorded in the gospels that when Lazarus went to sheol- he was conforted by Abrahams bosom, as if Abraham was not in heaven but in the resting/waiting place of the righteous from which you could see the punishment side where the unrighteous suffered.
*I just realized we are getting way of topic and this should be it's own post.
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 3/31/2009 4:42:17 PM
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frankman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 7over6
*I just realized we are getting way of topic and this should be it's own post.
I`ll try my best to answer "Drmark`s" question in a round about way while staying on topic, so please bare with me. God killed the people of the Bible because they failed to acknowledge the one true Creator God as God. Now what did they know about God that they rejected and caused God to kill them? One thing of many was God`s promise to humanity in Gen.3:15. "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will crush your head, and you will strike His heel." This tells us that God will sent His Son, born of a woman, who would die on the cross for our sins, but then (surprise) rise again. Then in a later date yet to come (read Rom.16:20) this God will crush Satan`s head and all people that continue to disobey Him. (Drmark, best way I knew how to answer your question while still trying to stay on topic.) If you go very deep, all this can be mined out of Gen.3:15 and this is what Abraham had faith in. If he understood it the way I just described it to you I don`t know, but all this deep theology is all in this one verse.
_____________________________
"Is not My word like fire,` declares the LORD, `and like a hammer that breaks a rock in peaces?" Jeremiah 23:29
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 3/31/2009 5:15:45 PM
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drmark
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quote:
If he understood it the way I just described it to you I don`t know, but all this deep theology is all in this one verse. Thanks for the effort, frankman, but I'll just stick with the text from Genesis 15. It reads quite plainly to me.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 4/2/2009 5:11:28 PM
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frankman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
If he understood it the way I just described it to you I don`t know, but all this deep theology is all in this one verse. Thanks for the effort, frankman, but I'll just stick with the text from Genesis 15. It reads quite plainly to me.
Why don`t we just say that God killed people in the Bible because they did not have faith in His Word and therefore they did not obey God`s Word, thus reaping God`s wrath? What made Abraham different? Gen.15:6 states "Abram believed the LORD, and He credited it to him as righteousness." According to your Post#88 you implied that Abraham had faith in the context of verses 5+6 concerning God`s promise to Abraham`s offspring. You are 100% correct here, in fact you are so right about this one that I had to post just one more time, because this is the reason why God did not kill Abraham also. James 2:21 states "Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the alter?" Then it goes on to repeat the Scripture of Gen.15:6 in James 2:23 linking Isaac to his faith and obedience.
In summary this is what I`m getting at. Had Abraham not had faith in God`s promises to him, the promise of Gen.15:5+6, God would have killed not only Abraham, but all people in the Bible and we too would be damned for all eternity. This is because of the key phrase in what God promised Abraham in Gen.15:5. "Look up at the heavens and count the stars- if indeed you can count them. Then He said to him, So shall your offspring be."  Who was the offspring of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Judah according to Matt.1:2 and on to verse 16? It was JESUS. It is through the offspring of Abraham that Jesus was born. So we`re right back at having faith in Jesus and the cross as to the reason why Abraham and all of us will escape God`s wrath. That is if we have faith in Jesus.
_____________________________
"Is not My word like fire,` declares the LORD, `and like a hammer that breaks a rock in peaces?" Jeremiah 23:29
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 4/2/2009 5:26:16 PM
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drmark
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quote:
That is if we have faith in Jesus. Sounds great, but my faith in Christ has nothing to do with Abe's faith in God's specific promise to Him. Other than He bestowed His grace on both of us to believe in Him!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 4/4/2009 11:24:58 AM
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frankman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
That is if we have faith in Jesus. Sounds great, but my faith in Christ has nothing to do with Abe's faith in God's specific promise to Him. Other than He bestowed His grace on both of us to believe in Him!
We believe God killed people in the Bible because they rejected the GOSPEL, which is having faith in Jesus. Paul describes the gospel as faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ in 1 Cor.15:3+4. So the big question becomes did God not destroy Abraham because Abe had faith in the Gospel, or just in God`s specific pomises to him? In other words, do the promises that God gave Abraham in Gen.15:5+6 include the Gospels?
If Abraham was saved the same way we are today by having faith in Jesus then he must of had some advance knowledge of the gospel in his time. Now I said in Post#90 that I don`t know for sure if he understood it the way we do today. I could wait till I get to heaven and ask him, but that would take to long. So I came up with another solution and decided to read my Bible and this is what I read.
In Gal.3:6 Paul repeats Gen.15:6 by stating. "Consider Abraham: He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Then in Gal.3:8 I read this verse The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: All nations will be blessed through you."  I rest my case.
_____________________________
"Is not My word like fire,` declares the LORD, `and like a hammer that breaks a rock in peaces?" Jeremiah 23:29
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 4/4/2009 8:31:57 PM
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earthless
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There are two groups of people - those God loves.. those God hates.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 4/4/2009 10:00:01 PM
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drmark
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quote:
There are two groups of people - those God loves.. those God hates. I could not disagree more, earthless! There are two groups of people - those who practice the righteousness that God loves...those who practice the sin God hates.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 4/4/2009 10:03:35 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
There are two groups of people - those God loves.. those God hates. I could not disagree more, earthless! There are two groups of people - those who practice the righteousness that God loves...those who practice the sin God hates.
It is what it is...
"God loves the sinner, but hates the sin" is not biblical. That was a saying from Ghandi. God doesn't send sin to hell, but sinners.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 4/4/2009 10:19:40 PM
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drmark
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I'm sure I could put together a cute video demonstrating the truth of the universal Atonement, but I really don't have the time or money right now. What I do have, earthless, is God's Holy Word and It speaks for Itself:
Romans 5:8 - "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 4/4/2009 11:41:24 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
I'm sure I could put together a cute video demonstrating the truth of the universal Atonement, but I really don't have the time or money right now. What I do have, earthless, is God's Holy Word and It speaks for Itself:
Romans 5:8 - "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
That doesn't do much for those who never see the pearling gates...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 4/5/2009 8:19:14 AM
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drmark
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quote:
That doesn't do much for those who never see the pearling gates... ..by their willful choice to reject Him! Nice try, John, but God still loves them.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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