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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/14/2009 12:33:22 AM
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solo_soprano23
Posts: 2081
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PinkCarnations
quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
quote:
What would you say to a mother who had aborted an anencephalic baby? Would you try to comfort her for her loss?
Define what you mean by "comfort".
Hold her hand, offer her a shoulder to cry on, direct her to a Christ-centered post abortion counseling place, etc.
Speaking of emotional problems, most couples or women who are having an anencephalic baby (that I hear) wanted their baby badly. I'm not sure how many choose to abort when they hear the news and get it confirmed, but I think sometimes they'd need help either way. If you hear your baby is brainless/half headless and choose to abort, you might need counselling. If you have the child and watch it die when you knew beforehand, you might need counselling as well. I know for a fact that some do need counselling when the baby is born and dies; I don't know that it's documented how many seek counselling in the other scenario. For some women, abortion can (and does) cause problems (both emotional and physical); I can't say that giving birth to an anencephalic child and watching them die would do them or her any less harm or any more. I know we want to say all women who get abortions regardless of the reason are going to have problems because of what they chose. The truth is, some don't; and in some cases, you can't tell which choice would have had the greatest impact on her given that she knows the condition of the fetus (with something like anencephaly, and putting aside the "when does personhood begin" debate).
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/14/2009 12:38:24 AM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1614
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 318
Yes. Interesting that you should bring that up:
My kid is not the fruit of my loins, but I am raising him as my own. At 3 years of age, he does not know the difference.
The interesting thing is that he was born with gross internal deformities that would have killed him had the doctors not played God and fixed what God did.
Remember?: according to your scripture quotes, you concluded that God hand-knits each and every individual together in each womb; therefore, God knit my kid together with non-functional, fatal flaws. We went against God's workmanship and had surgeons fix it so that he could live in spite of God's obvious desire to the contrary.
Ironic, isn't it.
If it was God's will for that child to die it would have died.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/14/2009 1:15:45 AM
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PinkCarnations
Posts: 10801
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Is this the question you were talking about?
quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
So you have never heard of or read of situations where a child is diagnosed with terminal cancer of some kind or an inoperable brain tumor where nothing can be done and also where it will result in pain and suffering before death occurs?
I have never heard of an unborn child being diagnosed in such a way.
quote:
What would you say to a mother who had aborted an anencephalic baby? Would you try to comfort her for her loss?
quote:
Define what you mean by "comfort".
Just bringing the question to this page for you.
And while we are discussing this can we please pray for a friend of mine. She learned today that her son's girlfriend is going to have an abortion tomorrow and she's pretty heartbroken, but can't do anything to stop it.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/14/2009 9:32:11 AM
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Retro80s
Posts: 277
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PinkCarnations
Is this the question you were talking about?
quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
So you have never heard of or read of situations where a child is diagnosed with terminal cancer of some kind or an inoperable brain tumor where nothing can be done and also where it will result in pain and suffering before death occurs?
I have never heard of an unborn child being diagnosed in such a way.
I was not talking about an unborn child. I said this -
quote:
What about the mother that finds out that her (insert whatever age you want) child is going to die a painful death due to some terminal condition (cancer, brain tumor, etc.)? If it were legal for the mother to "terminate" her child in this case and she did want to have to experience seeing her child suffer and ultimately die, would you be against this?
That is why I put the words, "insert whatever age you want". When I ask questions such as this, I usually put an age, such as 6 month old, two year old, etc.
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Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/14/2009 12:15:58 PM
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PinkCarnations
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CCC- you're basing your questions to me on the assumption that I think abortion is OK. I don't. I've just said that anencephaly is one of (probably the only) time where I can sympathize with a woman for choosing abortion. Are you doing that because you don't understand where I'm coming from? You don't want to answer my question? Both?
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/14/2009 12:28:23 PM
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drmark
Posts: 4634
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quote:
you're basing your questions to me on the assumption that I think abortion is OK. I don't. I've just said that anencephaly is one of (probably the only) time where I can sympathize with a woman for choosing abortion. If you feel abortion is not "OK", then how do you symapthize with its choice for an anencephalic preborn baby?
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/14/2009 1:02:41 PM
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PinkCarnations
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
you're basing your questions to me on the assumption that I think abortion is OK. I don't. I've just said that anencephaly is one of (probably the only) time where I can sympathize with a woman for choosing abortion. If you feel abortion is not "OK", then how do you sympathize with its choice for an anencephalic preborn baby?
Because that is an incredibly painful reality to face. Quite frankly I don't see how anyone who hasn't faced it can be so callous about it.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/14/2009 1:48:30 PM
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drmark
Posts: 4634
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quote:
Because that is an incredibly painful reality to face. Quite frankly I don't see how anyone who hasn't faced it can be so callous about it. So facing the reality that a mother has chosen to deliberately have her baby killed is not incredibly painful? Is that what you're saying, Roberta? Quite frankly, I don't see how anyone who rationalizes murder can be so callous about it.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/14/2009 2:00:06 PM
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PinkCarnations
Posts: 10801
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Because that is an incredibly painful reality to face. Quite frankly I don't see how anyone who hasn't faced it can be so callous about it. So facing the reality that a mother has chosen to deliberately have her baby killed is not incredibly painful? Is that what you're saying, Roberta? Quite frankly, I don't see how anyone who rationalizes murder can be so callous about it.
Who is rationalizing? Whatever route she takes is going to be incredibly painful. I'm just saying that maybe we could offer her some compassion instead of being so quick to judge.
BTW - I'm loving all this prolife talk, but no mention of the prayer request that I posted in this thread.  This woman might be having an abortion at this very moment.
That right there says a lot about many prolifers not wanting to put their beliefs into action!
Instead it's better to keep harping on the fact that I said that I would have compassion or sympathize for her. I never said that it was right to abort anencephalic babies. I said that I could sympathize for the woman who had to make that choice. If you really want my opinion, it would be wrong to abort those babies, but I refuse to treat a mother who did choose abortion as a second class citizen ----- especially in that case. I haven't walked in her shoes. I don't know her family situation.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/14/2009 2:10:15 PM
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JeCrois
Posts: 5
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 318
quote:
ORIGINAL: JeCrois
318,
Do you have any children?
Yes. Interesting that you should bring that up:
My kid is not the fruit of my loins, but I am raising him as my own. At 3 years of age, he does not know the difference.
The interesting thing is that he was born with gross internal deformities that would have killed him had the doctors not played God and fixed what God did.
Remember?: according to your scripture quotes, you concluded that God hand-knits each and every individual together in each womb; therefore, God knit my kid together with non-functional, fatal flaws. We went against God's workmanship and had surgeons fix it so that he could live in spite of God's obvious desire to the contrary.
Ironic, isn't it.
I know that this is a large thread but if you go back and look you'll see my last post was my first in this thread so I haven't referenced any scripture. But I think I'll take a stab anyway...
Maybe God made your son that way so that one day many years from now your son will be able to look back and testify to God's glory over his life knowing that he was able to outlive any prognosis man could give him. Maybe God wants to use your son to be an inspiration to other families whose children are facing the same issues. I am not God so I can't give you the "why's" but I do know that He works everything out for the good of those who love Him.
The reason I asked if you had children is because I have NEVER heard one solitary Christian parent argue for abortion in the way that you do. If anything is ironic that is. You don't hear too many couples going around referring to the little gift God has entrusted them with and given responsibility for as their "parasites."
I was wondering if you were a parent what your experience was like in the delivery room on your child's birthday. The first moment you got to see your little tyke and hold him in your arms...looking into his eyes knowing he is so helpless and completely dependant on you and wondering what he'll grow up to be.
How a Christian person can sit there and look their child in the face and tell them that they have meaning and a purpose...yet turn around and deny other children this opportunity is beyond any scope of the love and charity the bible speaks so often about.
The bible is inerrant and should be our source of truth but have a little common sense and listen to what the Spirit tells you from time to time. The bible tells us to have a relationship with God and this is honestly how you deal with troubling or questionable issues like the one you've brought here that aren't so clear in a written-out format. God is speaking to us all the time...it's how we choose to hear Him that makes a difference.
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Life is good. Eternal life is better.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/14/2009 2:17:27 PM
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drmark
Posts: 4634
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: online
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quote:
Whatever route she takes is going to be incredibly painful. Indeed, one is self-inflicted pain and the other pain from living in a fallen world. Somehow, the latter type seems much less "incredible" to me!
quote:
I said that I could sympathize for the woman who had to make that choice. If you really want my opinion, it would be wrong to abort those babies, but I refuse to treat a mother who did choose abortion as a second class citizen ----- especially in that case. It's really hard to "sympathize" with someone who willfully chooses to do something which I consider "wrong" and would not do myself. Apparently you're a better sympathizer than me! I hope I would never treat anyone as a second-class citizen, even if they do treat their child as one.
quote:
BTW - I'm loving all this prolife talk, but no mention of the prayer request that I posted in this thread. This woman might be having an abortion at this very moment.
That right there says a lot about many prolifers not wanting to put their beliefs into action! BTW, do you know how many of us prayed offline and for how long to save this baby's life? I did not realize that prayers had to be posted publicly to be effective.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/14/2009 2:19:40 PM
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JeCrois
Posts: 5
Joined: 7/22/2008
Status: offline
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PinkCarnations,
I noticed your prayer request earlier this morning and I just wanted you to know that your friends are in my prayers! It is not an easy situation to go through and not easy to give your opinion on the matter while making sure you are still cool enough to show God's love.
You can only give so much of your advice to them and its up to God to convict them and for this woman to hear that conviction. All we can do now is pray and leave it in God's hands.
Blessings
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Life is good. Eternal life is better.
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Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/14/2009 3:04:35 PM
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PinkCarnations
Posts: 10801
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Thank you.
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Thank you Veterans.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/14/2009 3:16:26 PM
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Retro80s
Posts: 277
Joined: 3/10/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PinkCarnations
CCC- you're basing your questions to me on the assumption that I think abortion is OK. I don't. I've just said that anencephaly is one of (probably the only) time where I can sympathize with a woman for choosing abortion. Are you doing that because you don't understand where I'm coming from?
I asked my question in response to an earlier post where you said this, "I fail to see how it would help a woman to give birth [to]...one that will die very soon. I don't think that it is wrong for a woman to choose abortion in that case."
From this statement, it seems as if you are justifying abortion (the killing of a child) in this case because the child "will die very soon" from his condition. My question to this, put another way, was if you would take this same position regarding a child that had been born (one year old, two year old, etc.) that was diagnosed with some type of terminal condition and one from which he would die very soon.
_____________________________
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See for Yourself
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/14/2009 3:16:49 PM
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318
Posts: 346
Joined: 1/9/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
If it was God's will for that child to die it would have died.
. . . That sword cuts both ways, Bro: I could just as easily say the exact same thing about an aborted fetus.
quote:
ORIGINAL: JeCrois
Maybe God made your son that way so that one day many years from now your son will be able to look back and testify to God's glory over his life knowing that he was able to outlive any prognosis man could give him.
. . . He outlived God's prognosis; it was man that saved his life.
quote:
I am not God so I can't give you the "why's" but I do know that He works everything out for the good of those who love Him.
The biggest "why" is why God knits deformed, diseased, crippled wretches together right in the womb in the first place. The next biggest "why" is why so many of these special creations are stillborn or live only very shortly after delivery.
quote:
The reason I asked if you had children is because I have NEVER heard one solitary Christian parent argue for abortion in the way that you do.
. . . Except me, right?
But I think that you are reading me wrong. I am not advocating abortion per se, rather I am discounting the whole "abortion is against the bible" theology.
quote:
You don't hear too many couples going around referring to the little gift God has entrusted them with and given responsibility for as their "parasites."
Parasite has a medical, biological defintion; it is not a disparaging term in that sense.
As for my kid, he ceased to be a parasite after he was delivered.
quote:
How a Christian person can sit there and look their child in the face and tell them that they have meaning and a purpose
. . . I do not tell him this.
quote:
The bible is inerrant and should be our source of truth but have a little common sense and listen to what the Spirit tells you from time to time.
I hold the bible in higher esteem than "special revelation." I look to the letter of scripture, not someone's hyper-spiritualized misinterpretation of it.
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Brian
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/14/2009 3:39:50 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1614
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 318
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
If it was God's will for that child to die it would have died.
. . . That sword cuts both ways, Bro: I could just as easily say the exact same thing about an aborted fetus.
Yes, you could say it. It still doesn't change things. You are trying to compare medical procedures done to keep a child alive to medial procedures done to make a child dead. You are doing what you have done through this entire thread - twist words, lift things from their context, and ignore things when it doesn't suit your purpose, whatever that may be.
quote:
I hold the bible in higher esteem than "special revelation." I look to the letter of scripture, not someone's hyper-spiritualized misinterpretation of it.
This is the most laughable statement in this entire thread.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/14/2009 3:52:58 PM
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318
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Joined: 1/9/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
Yes, you could say it. It still doesn't change things.
. . . It invalidates your statement.
quote:
You are trying to compare medical procedures done to keep a child alive to medial procedures done to make a child dead.
Because I am showing you from my own experience that God apparently does not consider all life sacred by simple virtue of the fact that it is created in a womb.
quote:
You are doing what you have done through this entire thread - twist words, lift things from their context, and ignore things when it doesn't suit your purpose, whatever that may be.
. . . In other words, I am whipping the tar out of all "abortion is against the bible" arguments.
quote:
This is the most laughable statement in this entire thread.
This is not a counter-argument.
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Brian
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/14/2009 4:04:13 PM
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drmark
Posts: 4634
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
This is not a counter-argument. There is no argument against irrational prejudice.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/14/2009 4:10:51 PM
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318
Posts: 346
Joined: 1/9/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
There is no argument against irrational prejudice.
. . . To the contrary, I think that I have demonstrated otherwise.
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Brian
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/14/2009 4:27:28 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1614
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 318
. . . It invalidates your statement.
No, it doesn't. You made yet another faulty comparison based on scripture tortured and twisted almost beyond recognition.
quote:
Because I am showing you from my own experience that God apparently does not consider all life sacred by simple virtue of the fact that it is created in a womb.
Because you are taking your experience and how you feel things should be and are trying to mold God into it so that you may have your cake and eat it to.
quote:
. . . In other words, I am whipping the tar out of all "abortion is against the bible" arguments.
In other words, you began with a flawed premise and insist on basing all arguments on it. Simply because we refuse to follow you down those rabbit holes hardly equates to "whipping the tar" out of anything. Until you can begin quoting scripture in context and stop making ridiculous leaps in reasoning there's nothing to say or debate.
quote:
This is not a counter-argument.
I didn't mean it to be. I meant it as a statement of fact. You are holding to a hyper-literalism when it suits your purpose. A quick review of this thread will show you want nothing more than to get everyone running in circles because you believe yourself the smartest person in the room. You can then watch the foolish Christians choke on contradictions while you laugh at how stupid and blind we are. Sorry, this may work on someone new to the faith, but with those with any maturity and a modicum of intellect it falls short.
You may continue running your game.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/14/2009 5:14:36 PM
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dboe
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To the people posting about women not being spared at the expense of a baby delivered, I have no idea if its possible or not. But for the record and yes I may be selfish and terrible and condemned for it but, I am also rather small and could see it happening- SO if its the baby or me- I want them to choose ME!! SOrry to whom that offends. Therefore the law of the land should leave the choice to the professional, the doctor and not outlaw abortion in these situations. I don't really think this makes me pro-choice. Just pro medical opinion. Also, preeclampsia is a deadly condition that may cause this (but not entirely sure).
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/14/2009 5:30:31 PM
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PinkCarnations
Posts: 10801
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
quote:
ORIGINAL: PinkCarnations
CCC- you're basing your questions to me on the assumption that I think abortion is OK. I don't. I've just said that anencephaly is one of (probably the only) time where I can sympathize with a woman for choosing abortion. Are you doing that because you don't understand where I'm coming from?
I asked my question in response to an earlier post where you said this, "I fail to see how it would help a woman to give birth [to]...one that will die very soon. I don't think that it is wrong for a woman to choose abortion in that case."
From this statement, it seems as if you are justifying abortion (the killing of a child) in this case because the child "will die very soon" from his condition. My question to this, put another way, was if you would take this same position regarding a child that had been born (one year old, two year old, etc.) that was diagnosed with some type of terminal condition and one from which he would die very soon.
OK- I can understand how you'd come to that conclusion. There was a communication break down somewhere....... between my brain and my fingers. 
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/14/2009 5:40:37 PM
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3cappuccinosmom
Posts: 3575
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
To the people posting about women not being spared at the expense of a baby delivered, I have no idea if its possible or not. But for the record and yes I may be selfish and terrible and condemned for it but, I am also rather small and could see it happening- SO if its the baby or me- I want them to choose ME!! SOrry to whom that offends. Therefore the law of the land should leave the choice to the professional, the doctor and not outlaw abortion in these situations. I don't really think this makes me pro-choice. Just pro medical opinion. Also, preeclampsia is a deadly condition that may cause this (but not entirely sure).
Even severe medical problems normally do not require dismembering the baby (can't think of even one such case, actually). And if you consider that a great choice and worthy choice, yes, please don't get pregnant. 
Few women are genuinely too small to deliver a baby. And if they are, that would be a massively risky late term abortion. That would be bad for you, even if you were making the decision based on selfishness alone. There is this procedure called Cesarean section that bypasses the problem of "baby too big for pelvis".
Pre-eclampsia may require a somewhat early delivery and the baby staying in the NICU, but again that is not a reason to actively, deliberately kill a baby.
< Message edited by 3cappuccinosmom -- 4/14/2009 5:53:36 PM >
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. If you have children before you are ready it will be a horrible experience for you and your child. That's all I meant. I'm sure you are probably a very decent person otherwise.
