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Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/14/2009 6:06:35 PM
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PinkCarnations
Posts: 10801
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The problem is that we have things neatly wrapped up in our minds about what is right and wrong. We know that life doesn't come in the pretty little packages. A woman could be forced by the baby's father or wrongly counseled by her church or she may have just made a tragic decision on her own. She may be trying to repent and work through her feelings, but there are many prolife people who would rather rake her over the coals than to offer her an ear.
_____________________________
Thank you Veterans.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/14/2009 10:39:53 PM
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318
Posts: 346
Joined: 1/9/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
No, it doesn't.
. . . "Yes it does."
"No it doesn't."
"Yes it does."
"Doesn't."
"Does."
"Doesn't."------
ad nauseum
It doesn't matter how many times you tell me, Bro. What can you prove?
quote:
Because you are taking your experience and how you feel things should be and are trying to mold God into it so that you may have your cake and eat it to.
. . . No-- that's just it, Bro. That is what you do, not me. You want the bible to be anti-abortion, because that is what your personal sentiment is.
I, on the other hand, do not need scripture to line up with my personal sentiments. I go by what scripture says, not by what I want it to say.
quote:
In other words, you began with a flawed premise and insist on basing all arguments on it.
You have failed to show my flaw. Your retorts are pure ad hominem destitute of scripture. What does that prove?
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Until you can begin quoting scripture in context
What exactly is your definition of "in context?"
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You are holding to a hyper-literalism when it suits your purpose.
What exactly is your definition of "hyper-literalism?"
quote:
A quick review of this thread will show you want nothing more than to get everyone running in circles because you believe yourself the smartest person in the room. You can then watch the foolish Christians choke on contradictions while you laugh at how stupid and blind we are.
This sounds to me like you have self-image issues. Don't blame me for that.
quote:
You may continue running your game.
Well, thank you, but I don't really need your permission.
_____________________________
Brian
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/14/2009 11:29:21 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1614
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 318
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
No, it doesn't.
. . . "Yes it does."
"No it doesn't."
"Yes it does."
"Doesn't."
"Does."
"Doesn't."------
ad nauseum
It doesn't matter how many times you tell me, Bro. What can you prove?
quote:
Because you are taking your experience and how you feel things should be and are trying to mold God into it so that you may have your cake and eat it to.
. . . No-- that's just it, Bro. That is what you do, not me. You want the bible to be anti-abortion, because that is what your personal sentiment is.
I, on the other hand, do not need scripture to line up with my personal sentiments. I go by what scripture says, not by what I want it to say.
quote:
In other words, you began with a flawed premise and insist on basing all arguments on it.
You have failed to show my flaw. Your retorts are pure ad hominem destitute of scripture. What does that prove?
quote:
Until you can begin quoting scripture in context
What exactly is your definition of "in context?"
quote:
You are holding to a hyper-literalism when it suits your purpose.
What exactly is your definition of "hyper-literalism?"
quote:
A quick review of this thread will show you want nothing more than to get everyone running in circles because you believe yourself the smartest person in the room. You can then watch the foolish Christians choke on contradictions while you laugh at how stupid and blind we are.
This sounds to me like you have self-image issues. Don't blame me for that.
quote:
You may continue running your game.
Well, thank you, but I don't really need your permission.
I know you don't need my permission, but I'm not playing your game. I'm just making what's going on quite clear to everyone.
If you haven't noticed, I have stopped debating with you. So you might as well stop asking me to define my terms.
Everyone who reads your thread will read my comments, comments to the effect that you are purposely engendering strife. Your purpose is not to discuss. It is to try to make fools of people without them knowing it so you can continue to make them jump through your hoops - frustrating them at every turn because you keep moving the hoops.
_____________________________
<---- Respect the turtle neck
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/14/2009 11:56:08 PM
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Judson50
Posts: 68
Joined: 8/15/2005
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I would say, if you watch THIS VIDEO, entitled Videology: The Injustice of Abortion (it is 3:15) you will have a hard time saying abortion is not killing a human being.
I have to warn you it is graphic.
Grace and Peace,
Judson
_____________________________
Blog | Facebook | Twitter
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/15/2009 12:54:48 AM
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C.D.
Posts: 68
Status: offline
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I am pro-life not pro death!
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/15/2009 5:34:21 PM
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dboe
Posts: 130
Joined: 1/19/2009
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Bro Shane,
Dude you are a little harsh and that is an understatement here man. I am not talking about killing babies on purpose its rare anyways or maybe it doesn't even happen. I am saying I trust the medical expertise of doctors and would trust a doctor's judgement in my situation this is because I have a biology degree (that was undergrad) and a Masters degree and I know enough to respect a professional's judgement, as I am one myself. I am also saying that at a national level, it is important that not all abortions are totally outlawed so that medical professionals can counsel and guide and do what they do best in risky medical situations and pregnancies. And if it were the baby or me (which it would not be most likely statistically speaking anyway) I don't really know what I would do as I am not currently in the situation, but I think it is good for the possibility to not be outlawed at a national level in case there was a woman like me someday, somewhere in a bad situation. I am not talking again about baby killing. I am talking about risky medical situations that may exist for women. Because I believe that women are just as important as children. Our society still doesn't it would seem with the rates of violence against women still being astronomical as well as the fact that we do not make as much money as men, still even for equal work (but thats another post). What I am talking about and have been talking about since I started posting is the importance of looking at issues (such as abortion) with REASON as well as INTELLECT which are not unbiblical, by the way, so that we do not risk killing ANYONE unnecessarily. I do not believe that we should say, abortion is always wrong at any stage even if it kills the mother- because then you are putting one life above another life- you are saying a baby's life is more important than a mother's and who are we to judge. We cannot and should not judge the value of human life or say one is better than another or one deserves to live and one does not. This is why we have to debate, talk about, research, and ask many scientific and ethical questions concerning abortion before we pass laws that are all encompassing (such as all abortions are outlawed). Also before Roe v Wade was passed, many rich women got abortions in Europe and poor women were killed when they attempted to use coat hangers. Obviously they should not have done that but there is a life lost. I think it is better not to outlaw it, with strict limitations so that this never happens to anyone because they are so desperate. As I said before and I do again, if we want women to not have abortions, we need to make our churches welcoming places and get involved with childcare so that they will not feel so desperate. As I also said before, even the secular High School where I work has a day-care available to children of unwed teens who have babies. Are we doing this in our churches? WHy are we so focused on outlawing things and not helping the life that is already there?
And as a side note, I may not be wonderful and everyone is selfish, I think I would make a pretty good mother, I work with kids every day even kids with severe disabilities I really do like them alot.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/15/2009 5:47:48 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1614
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dboe
Bro Shane,
Dude you are a little harsh and that is an understatement here man.
I am trying to be harsh. I'm just telling the truth.
quote:
I am not talking about killing babies on purpose its rare anyways or maybe it doesn't even happen. I am saying I trust the medical expertise of doctors and would trust a doctor's judgement in my situation this is because I have a biology degree (that was undergrad) and a Masters degree and I know enough to respect a professional's judgement, as I am one myself.
I know you weren't. It wasn't abortion that I was commenting on, it was the self-centeredness. I was that way once, and not ready for children. I'm glad I waited. I was just trying to pass that along.
That's why I edited the post, to make sure that's how it came across. I obviously didn't do what I thought. My apology.
_____________________________
<---- Respect the turtle neck
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/15/2009 6:23:33 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6366
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dboe
Dude you are a little harsh and that is an understatement here man. I am not talking about killing babies on purpose its rare anyways or maybe it doesn't even happen.
It happens daily to the vast majority of the 3000 abortions daily are cold blooded murder...
quote:
And if it were the baby or me (which it would not be most likely statistically speaking anyway) I don't really know what I would do as I am not currently in the situation, but I think it is good for the possibility to not be outlawed at a national level in case there was a woman like me someday, somewhere in a bad situation. I am not talking again about baby killing. I am talking about risky medical situations that may exist for women.
At the expense of 3000 murder children daily...
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Because I believe that women are just as important as children.
Debatable..
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What I am talking about and have been talking about since I started posting is the importance of looking at issues (such as abortion) with REASON as well as INTELLECT which are not unbiblical, by the way, so that we do not risk killing ANYONE unnecessarily. I do not believe that we should say, abortion is always wrong at any stage even if it kills the mother- because then you are putting one life above another life- you are saying a baby's life is more important than a mother's and who are we to judge. We cannot and should not judge the value of human life or say one is better than another or one deserves to live and one does not. This is why we have to debate, talk about, research, and ask many scientific and ethical questions concerning abortion before we pass laws that are all encompassing (such as all abortions are outlawed).
Problem is all that "talk" is how we got to where we are today and unborn children are paying the price...
quote:
Also before Roe v Wade was passed, many rich women got abortions in Europe and poor women were killed when they attempted to use coat hangers. Obviously they should not have done that but there is a life lost. I think it is better not to outlaw it, with strict limitations so that this never happens to anyone because they are so desperate.
Which all leads to roughly 3000 murdered children daily... I for one don't have all that much concern for those who seek to murder... I don't believe we should make legal for assassin to murder because we don't wish them harm as they attempt to carry out their plans...
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As I said before and I do again, if we want women to not have abortions, we need to make our churches welcoming places and get involved with childcare so that they will not feel so desperate.
Since desperation isn't the reason for most abortions why is it the focus?
quote:
As I also said before, even the secular High School where I work has a day-care available to children of unwed teens who have babies.Are we doing this in our churches?
How many days are you willing to work at the church to run the day-care?
quote:
WHy are we so focused on outlawing things and not helping the life that is already there?
Because too many people ignore the daily 3000 murdered children, because they are more concerned about someone killing themselves in the attempt to murder another person, or keep abortion "legal" so the .001% of reasons of the mother's life at the expense of unborn children to the tune of 50,000,000 and counting...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/15/2009 6:26:23 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2341
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
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quote:
Well, that's a dicey question. Without breath there is no spirit (by biblical standards), but that does not mean that there are no signs of life at a perfunctory level. A fetus is considered alive if it has a heartbeat, but until it breaths, it has no personhood, i.e. no spirit.
Sorry for the delay - I got lost in the two pages of posts that popped up over the weekend.
OK, so, in your opinion, if a body has no personhood/spirit, is it really a human being? Or is it just a body made up human parts?
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/15/2009 6:40:10 PM
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dboe
Posts: 130
Joined: 1/19/2009
Status: offline
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I do not agree with you that it is debatable that one life is greater than another at all. I don't think a human can judge that. As for the 3000, let me clarify. I am not pro-willy nilly abortions here. I think there should be strict limits on them. But I do think it should be available in times of medical crises and thus not outlawed entirely. I am honestly on the fence about the women who would die if they committed an abortion. Are your stats on the number of women who commit abortion recent stats or are they historical data? Obviously, if they are more recent stats, that is a low number because few women currently resort to coat hangers as abortion is now legal. If that is historical data (as in pre Roe v Wade) then that is encouraging to know. I would be curious. Also, I would work everyday at a daycare like that if it existed if I were paid, I could not work there for free as I need to survive and eat. I do currently work full time so its not a possibility right now. If I were in a position to not work, and one existed I would definetly volunteer as I think its a good cause.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/15/2009 6:53:45 PM
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dboe
Posts: 130
Joined: 1/19/2009
Status: offline
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Hey, to all people posting thats a really good idea. We care so much in our churches and communities about this abortion issue. Well it is still legal whether we like it or not. Maybe we should start a new campaign. We have money for local and foreign missions. Could we use some of it to fund day-care for children of unwed mothers? Could we incorporate this into missions budgets of already existing day-cares so these parents could pay less if our day-care in our church already costs money? If we can't do this within the church, could we find free day-care services for individuals outside of it could we organize that and pass those flyers out when we protest outside abortion clinics? Along with those pamphlets about killing babies, by the way, free day-care exists somewhere! And here are some more services to help you out... like WIC... communication and things like this may drop that 3000 number... what if we reached out to people who come within our church doors with love and when we preach against abortion we mention that there is help out there and here is where to find it. We help the poor after all, couldn't we help the desperate? It could be called pro-compassion or something... I am dreaming but wouldn't that be cool?
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/15/2009 6:56:15 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6366
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dboe
I do not agree with you that it is debatable that one life is greater than another at all. I don't think a human can judge that. As for the 3000, let me clarify. I am not pro-willy nilly abortions here. I think there should be strict limits on them. But I do think it should be available in times of medical crises and thus not outlawed entirely.
That's it not what is debatable.... You arguments support the status quo which leads to the cold blooded death of 3000 unborn children....
quote:
I am honestly on the fence about the women who would die if they committed an abortion. Are your stats on the number of women who commit abortion recent stats or are they historical data? Obviously, if they are more recent stats, that is a low number because few women currently resort to coat hangers as abortion is now legal. If that is historical data (as in pre Roe v Wade) then that is encouraging to know. I would be curious.
I am not concerned about the stats of those who kill themselves while attempting to murder another person.... When those who do so outside the womb kill themselves in the attempt to kill others it's considered a good thing...
quote:
Also, I would work everyday at a daycare like that if it existed if I were paid, I could not work there for free as I need to survive and eat.
Exactly... It's easy for the government school to provide a day care, they operate on the idea that money is grown on trees...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/15/2009 6:57:27 PM
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1redfern
Posts: 57
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dboe
Hey, to all people posting thats a really good idea. We care so much in our churches and communities about this abortion issue. Well it is still legal whether we like it or not. Maybe we should start a new campaign. We have money for local and foreign missions. Could we use some of it to fund day-care for children of unwed mothers? Could we incorporate this into missions budgets of already existing day-cares so these parents could pay less if our day-care in our church already costs money? If we can't do this within the church, could we find free day-care services for individuals outside of it could we organize that and pass those flyers out when we protest outside abortion clinics? Along with those pamphlets about killing babies, by the way, free day-care exists somewhere! And here are some more services to help you out... like WIC... communication and things like this may drop that 3000 number... what if we reached out to people who come within our church doors with love and when we preach against abortion we mention that there is help out there and here is where to find it. We help the poor after all, couldn't we help the desperate? It could be called pro-compassion or something... I am dreaming but wouldn't that be cool?
That would be cool!
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/15/2009 8:18:27 PM
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MissInnocent
Posts: 646
Joined: 5/3/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dboe
Bro Shane,
Dude you are a little harsh and that is an understatement here man. I am not talking about killing babies on purpose its rare anyways or maybe it doesn't even happen. I am saying I trust the medical expertise of doctors and would trust a doctor's judgement in my situation this is because I have
a biology degree (that was undergrad) and a Masters degree and I know enough to respect a professional's judgement, as I am one myself. I am also saying that at a national level, it is important that not all abortions are totally outlawed so that medical professionals can counsel and guide and do what they do best in risky medical situations and pregnancies. And if it were the baby or me (which it would not be most likely statistically speaking anyway) I don't really know what I would do as I am not currently in the situation, but I think it is good for the possibility to not be outlawed at a national level in case there was a woman like me someday, somewhere in a bad situation. I am not talking again about baby killing. I am talking about risky medical situations that may exist for women. Because I believe that women are just as important as children. Our society still doesn't it would seem with the rates of violence against women still being astronomical as well as the fact that we do not make as much money as men, still even for equal work (but thats another post). What I am talking about and have been talking about since I started posting is the importance of looking at issues (such as abortion) with REASON as well as INTELLECT which are not unbiblical, by the way, so that we do not risk killing ANYONE unnecessarily. I do not believe that we should say, abortion is always wrong at any stage even if it kills the mother- because then you are putting one life above another life- you are saying a baby's life is more important than a mother's and who are we to judge. We cannot and should not judge the value of human life or say one is better than another or one deserves to live and one does not. This is why we have to debate, talk about, research, and ask many scientific and ethical questions concerning abortion before we pass laws that are all encompassing (such as all abortions are outlawed). Also before Roe v Wade was passed, many rich women got abortions in Europe and poor women were killed when they attempted to use coat hangers. Obviously they should not have done that but there is a life lost. I think it is better not to outlaw it, with strict limitations so that this never happens to anyone because they are so desperate. As I said before and I do again, if we want women to not have abortions, we need to make our churches welcoming places and get involved with childcare so that they will not feel so desperate. As I also said before, even the secular High School where I work has a day-care available to children of unwed teens who have babies. Are we doing this in our churches? WHy are we so focused on outlawing things and not helping the life that is already there?
And as a side note, I may not be wonderful and everyone is selfish, I think I would make a pretty good mother, I work with kids every day even kids with severe disabilities I really do like them alot.
I come from a family of nurses and have done a lot of biology and A&P study myself. If in a very rare instance my life were endanger I'd tell everyone within shouting distance to save my baby no matter what. If I awoke to find that my husband and doctor went against my wishes...oh I would make sure they lived to regret it.
It's my understanding that abortions were allowed in "mother's life is in danger" situations BEFORE Roe v. Wade was made legal and would be if it were ever overturned so the argument is kind of mute. On the other hand my mom told the doctor when I was born in 1979 that if a choice had to be made between us to save me. He told her that he was not allowed to do that that LEGALLY the doctor had to save the mother if God forbid an issue came up. That sounds fishy to me. Roe v. Wade is about a WOMAN'S right to choose. So if she says "save my baby" it seems wrong to go against HER choice.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/15/2009 9:03:36 PM
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solo_soprano23
Posts: 2081
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
Status: offline
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I think people are saying to go with the female's wishes, not to go with you own judgment. Some women choose to see if their babies will live rather than themselves; that's fine. But I think, at least back in the day, doctors were supposed to save mother over baby if they were forced to choose between the two. The only way I can see it being different is if the woman put it in writing and signed it (or made sure whoever was choosing for her knew) and let it be known to all medical professionals she came in contact with (even if she were in a wreck or needed emergency care on an ambulance). If she were passed out from hemorrhaging or something (for example), and the choice had to be made, I think and have heard that they were/are supposed to try to save mom first. Perhaps that varies depending on where you are and at what hospital. I don't know that there are guidelines for that kind of thing.
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/15/2009 9:06:30 PM
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PinkCarnations
Posts: 10801
Status: offline
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Solo - It would make sense to me that in a case like that they would save the mom because if she dies, most likely the baby will too.
_____________________________
Thank you Veterans.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/15/2009 9:36:59 PM
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jmjphe
Posts: 71
Joined: 4/29/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dboe
Hey, to all people posting thats a really good idea. We care so much in our churches and communities about this abortion issue. Well it is still legal whether we like it or not. Maybe we should start a new campaign. We have money for local and foreign missions. Could we use some of it to fund day-care for children of unwed mothers? Could we incorporate this into missions budgets of already existing day-cares so these parents could pay less if our day-care in our church already costs money? If we can't do this within the church, could we find free day-care services for individuals outside of it could we organize that and pass those flyers out when we protest outside abortion clinics? Along with those pamphlets about killing babies, by the way, free day-care exists somewhere! And here are some more services to help you out... like WIC... communication and things like this may drop that 3000 number... what if we reached out to people who come within our church doors with love and when we preach against abortion we mention that there is help out there and here is where to find it. We help the poor after all, couldn't we help the desperate? It could be called pro-compassion or something... I am dreaming but wouldn't that be cool?
There is in fact. Its called care-net. Yes, it is christian based in practice. Think of planned parenthood but in pretty much every way the opposite. I belive they have 1100 locations in the US. Its funny, I see alot of attention given to planned parenthood over the years, but never heard of care-net until recently. I was blown away that it's never brought up or talked about which I'd imagine is a result to the lack of exposure.
quote:
I come from a family of nurses and have done a lot of biology and A&P study myself. If in a very rare instance my life were endanger I'd tell everyone within shouting distance to save my baby no matter what. If I awoke to find that my husband and doctor went against my wishes...oh I would make sure they lived to regret it.
God bless you miss. I think it would be hard to argue that most good mothers, or fathers for that matter, woulnd't die for thier children if the situation came to those extremes. May come off as silly, but I remember seeing a TV ad for St. Judes cancer treatment center for children, and one father said regarding his child that he would gladly switch places.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/15/2009 11:37:55 PM
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318
Posts: 346
Joined: 1/9/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JeCrois
If you don't have enough faith in God or in scripture to know that He has your future already planned out for you and that he knew these plans even before the time of your conception in your mother's womb
I know that the bible teaches predestination.
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God does not need a "prediction"..."probability" is not one of His characteristics. He knows. Period. That's the end.
All I know is that my kid would have died, and in fact he did die and was rescucitated. You can say that God revived him, but it looked more like the flight nurses did it.
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If you think you aren't arguing for abortion go and check what you've written the last dozen pages.
. . . You have misunderstood my posts.
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It sure is nice to have that reassurance from your parents. I realize your son is three but three-year-olds can understand God loves them if you care to explain it to them.
. . . .I tell him that God loves him; I just don't tell him that he has a specific purpose.
quote:
God is more than just a book
The bible is also more than "just a book."
quote:
and He longs to have a relationship with you an me and everyone including children.
His word embodies that relationship.
< Message edited by 318 -- 4/15/2009 11:45:44 PM >
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Brian
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/15/2009 11:43:39 PM
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318
Posts: 346
Joined: 1/9/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Sorry for the delay - I got lost in the two pages of posts that popped up over the weekend.
No worries. I get distracted from the discussion quite often myself.
quote:
OK, so, in your opinion, if a body has no personhood/spirit, is it really a human being? Or is it just a body made up human parts?
In my opinion, a biologically functioning body with no spirit constitutes a human zombie. For instance, a body kept functioning artificially is just slightly more alive than a propped-up scarecrow.
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Brian
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/16/2009 12:32:01 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2341
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
In my opinion, a biologically functioning body with no spirit constitutes a human zombie.
So would the act of terminating the life of a human zombie be capable of falling under the umbrella of murder?
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"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/16/2009 12:56:15 AM
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solo_soprano23
Posts: 2081
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
In my opinion, a biologically functioning body with no spirit constitutes a human zombie.
So would the act of terminating the life of a human zombie be capable of falling under the umbrella of murder?
Well, if all it takes is a biologically-alive body, we could all possibly live til Jesus comes. We just don't have enough machines to go around for everyone in the world. Since we have the technology, whenver a loved one dies, why don't we just keep them here (as a person) via machines? That way no one would be lost. As long as the biology goes, we're here.
My point is that life can exist without personhood. I can tell some believe this, but fight that they don't, although they do double-speak. The problem is that they advocate people being removed from machines after certain ponts, or don't fight for them to be put on when they die naturally. But yet.... being a biologically-alive human automatically means you're a person, right (meaning "ensoulment")? That's all it takes? Biology?
(Not all of that was directed at you; yours was just a good post to make a point.)
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; if anything, we're saying that being a person involves more than being running (human) biology and that's all it takes to make one a person.
